The Islamist and Hindutva Politics: Identities of Outlook and Objectives

Re: religious tolerance

A lot of historical facts presented by harimanu about the way by which local deities were incorporated by hindus as part of the legend is true. Hindus during ancient times lived by the spirit of ``live and let live``. The religious tolerance of hindus in ancient days is legendary. The story is often told of how the jews (some claim as one of the lost tribes) who fled to India landed in Calicut (coastal Kerala)in a country ruled by Zamorin who was a hindu. They got the land to stay and built a synagogue right by the side of a Kali temple. Many ministers of the time objected. The king did not know what to do. It is said Goddess Kali came in his dream and told him to allow them to stay and said``they worship me in a different form``.

The greatest challenge to hinduism came not from Islam but from Buddhism (hard to believe!).Buddhism spread to every nook and corner of India. Hindu religion was made popular again by people like Adi Shankara who went all over India debating and arguing with Buddhists and other scholars of the time. We have never read of any king ever killing or prosecuting people for religion in ancient India. King Ashoka who was a Hindu became Buddhist and adopted Buddhism as a state religion but even he did not prosecute hindus. Hence, the zeal with which many muslim sultans propogated Islam (many times it included forced conversions,physical subjugation etc) would have been hard for the hindus of that time to understand. The common refrain would have been `why can`t they live and propogate their religion peacefully`. The fact of the matter is Islam was unlike any other religion India had witnessed till then. There was no way this new religion was willing to be accomodated. It was the very antithesis of hinduism. While hinduism revelled in idol worship and celebrated God in its myriad forms, Islam was iconoclastic. The islamic rulers saw temples and statues as the symbol of hinduism and went after them to systematically destroy the religion. That they could not do so is because hinduism is not just a religion. It is also a way of life. To destroy it would have required destroying every being who was a hindu,a task not possible even for a powerful ruler like Akbar. That hinduism has survived intact even after such harsh times is a testimony to its inherent strength in spirituality and faith.

Having said all that, I would like to add that I am not in favor of demolishing even one mosque to prove a point or for revenge. Such actions have no place in a modern society. Besides,2 wrongs do not make a right. Best thing to do in case of Babri masjid issue would be to let the Supreme Court decide the issue. Meanwhile,we should make sure that the issue is freely debated in newspapers and TV so people are not misled by vily politicians.

rsridhar

Hi,

Harimau`s article is thought provoking. Even though so many chowkwallahs have disapproved his article as a vitrolic diatribe from a Hindoo fundamentalist, no one has come up with a reasonable reply to it.

My personal view is Harimaus observations are correct. He has exposed the hypocrisy of Pseudo-secularists ( apologist Hindoos ) and at the same time shown the expansionalist and cruel features of the Sword of Islam.

It is really a astonishing fact that these so-called Hindoos have still not learned from History. And if you don`t learn from history than you are damned to repeat it.

I would personally salute Harimau for his articles. You are a realist. It takes a lot of courage to admit the truth and you have done it.

Harimau 406#

I like your post 406#. If you say that first, and then say what you want, people will listen more. Ideally, it should not matter, but reality is very different from idealism.

I am not visting this site regularly anymore.

Ref shankar #: 419

[Hahaha you crack me up! Let me tell you, I have resolved never to make fun of Islam because they have promised me 72 houris in heaven if I`m a good boy. On the other hand, I`ve convinced my wife to be a pious hindu. I wont be a happy camper if she`s rewarded by 72 horny & handsome jehadis. I`m proud of my male double standard, another thing my muslim soulmates have taught me.]

You are a pathetic excuse for a human being. If you have the slightest idea about your heritage, you would know that Hindu women are raised to believe that to even wish for a different husband in the next life is infidelity to their marital vows and every male is raised to treat his wife so as to be deserving of such devotion and love. You revel in being an ass-kisser of the whites and you peddle the hogwash called psychiatry. Your first customer should be yourself.

I am not surprised you even ask that idiot taikonaut why he is ending his posts with `Gurv Say Kahon Mein Bharti Hai`. If you have a clue about what it means to be an Indian, let alone a Hindu, you wouldn`t bother with that idiot.

harimau,

Hahaha you crack me up! Let me tell you, I have resolved never to make fun of Islam because they have promised me 72 houris in heaven if I`m a good boy. On the other hand, I`ve convinced my wife to be a pious hindu. I wont be a happy camper if she`s rewarded by 72 horny & handsome jehadis. I`m proud of my male double standard, another thing my muslim soulmates have taught me.

Feel better now?!

In her reply #23 on the board ``Make Religion Sexy``, Farzana Versey said

[Well, keep the posts well-lubricated.]

Since these are words written by an eminent columnist and an Islamic one at that, let me ask Dr. Headshrinker:

`Were you keeping the post well-lubricated?`

Chowk editors, I don`t think you will publish this either because you want to create the impression among your reading public that I was using filthy language by putting special characters where I had my riposte to the headshrinker. Or, you will put special characters again and print the rest of the post.

What happened to your Islamic courage?

Re: harimau

You wrote to shankar:

``But, if scientific inquiry was your forte, you wouldn`t be practicing voodoo in a white coat.``

Hah good one.

Re: ylh

Hahah...I knew the NEWS in #414 would piss you off. After all it exposes Pakistan for what it is...a non-secular, failed, bankrupt, and isolated ``ISLAMIC Republic`` with a military dictator. Now, to top it all off, despite having an ISLAM ONLY and country, they are killing each other.

So much for all your theories....

People like Rsaxena have no sense of fairness, indicative perhaps of the general trend in India.

If quoting the authors I quote is rewriting History then kindly show me which Pandit I should listen to, to learn History.

As for Harimau, you have made sweeping generalizations, the interesting mix of fact and fiction that you have put up, doesnot support your conclusions. You have been condemned by your own people.

Kindly try and refute the following facts

1) It was Gandhi not Jinnah who supported the Khilafat Movement ... Jinnah had no interest in such an obscurantist gaddi for the Muslims.

2) Muslim Empires with all their faults allowed all the subject races and communities religious freedom, and autonomy .... REF: John L Esposito,

Bernard Lewis, Harold Lamb, Paul Sprachman, Montgommery Watt, Abbot, Edward Jurji of Princeton, and COUNTLESS, and by countless I mean COUNTLESS OTHERS including people like Napoleon Bonaparte and Warren Hastings!

You have earned my permanent wrath by attributing to my person, certain fallacies (like I support Khilafat etc). As for Rsaxena, he is just an ignorant young un, who when he will be ready to learn History, might change his biased and narrowminded attitude!

-Yasser Hamdani

This will become the history that ylh rewrites in a month (as he does everything else).

``MULTAN, Pakistan, Jan 25 (Reuters) - Masked gunmen killed a Shi``ite Muslim activist and wounded two passers-by in an attack in Pakistan``s Punjab province on Thursday. Police said they suspected the motive was sectarian. The killing drew immediate condemnation from the Tehrik-e-Jafria party, Pakistan``s main Shi``ite political party, which blamed the government for failing to protect members of the country``s minority Shi``ite community. Tehrik-e-Jafria says five of its members have been killed in the last four weeks and about 35 were killed last year, mostly by members of rival Sunni Muslim militant groups. Police said Syed Ameer Hussain Lak, a teacher, was gunned down on his way to school at 9:40 a.m. (0440 GMT) in Sardarpur village in southern Punjab. Two gunmen on a motorcycle opened fire at Lak, killing him instantly and wounding two passers-by, police said. Lak, in his early thirties, was an official for the Tehrik-e-Jafria party in Khanewal district, about 60 km (37 miles) east of Multan city. ``The government is not taking any steps to stop these incidents, which are on the rise,`` Tehrik-e-Jafria leader Sajid Naqvi told Reuters by telephone. ``The situation is getting worse each passing day and there is nothing the government is doing to stop it,`` he said. A 55-year old Iranian Shi``ite preacher, Agha Sultani, who had been living in Pakistan for several years, was shot dead by masked gunmen on Saturday in Karachi. He ran an Islamic religious school in the port city. Hundreds of people have been killed in Sunni-Shi``ite violence in Pakistan in recent years. The two groups disagree over interpretations of Islamic beliefs. ``

Ref shankar #: 405

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Chowkwallahs: I suppose this offends your sensibilities (that is why you haven`t posted this reply in a couple of days) but not the graphic rubbish that Farzana Versey has posted in her responses on her board on making religions sexy.

But then, hasn`t that been the hallmark of Islamic evenhandedness? One rule for Muslims and another for kafirs?

Ref shankar #: 405

[No, but I`m sure you`ll be thinking about them]

Do you make similar wisecracks to your Muslim sister-in-law (aren`t you the one who gushed about the wonderful biriyani you get at your sister-in-law`s parents?) about the Haj or is your contempt only reserved for Hindus?

I have never seen such self-loathing in any person.

YLH

I forgot to add one small footnote.

Chitor was re-occupied after some years, despite the fact that every man, woman, and child was put to death by Mahmud Ghaznavi.

After Akbar`s sack, Chitor was abandoned.

When Indians see pictures of the ghost city of Chitor, they assume that this was Mahmud Ghaznavi`s doing.

They don`t know it is the most benevolent Mughal emperor Akbar, the one who, according to history, was the kindest to his Hindu subjects, who was responsible for the utter desolation of Chitor.

How about that for re-telling, not re-writing, history?

Pankaj #404

Even if books are not at hand with me, I am ready to discuss Kashmir issue.

One axiom you have to forego first. Kashmir has been part of India in 1947.

One axiom you have to accept. Kashmiris have a right to determine their own future.

Then we can study the tumultuous history of Kashmir.

Ref ylh #: 408

[Despite many efforts by people like Shankar and Harpreet, the problem with India remains. There are just too many Harimaus and Rsaxenas, who pride themselves in the rewriting of History, and associating falsehoods with the objects of their

hatred.]

Bud, I am NOT rewriting history; I am quoting from John Keay who quotes Muslim historians contemporaneous with the sultans of Delhi. That is not re-writing history but finally letting the bright light of truth shine on the dark secrets of those times that are being glossed over in contemporary history books for political reasons. Like cockroaches when the light is turned on, all the supporters of the glorious Mughal rule have scampered away in all directions (where are you, F_K?), only to leave behind the Hindu apologists and doormats who have given up because they have no logic in their arguments.

Why don`t YOU, ylh, show me the historical falsehoods in my statements so far on this board?

Despite many efforts by people like Shankar and Harpreet, the problem with India remains. There are just too many Harimaus and Rsaxenas, who pride themselves in the rewriting of History, and associating falsehoods with the objects of their

hatred.

-Yasser

Ref Dionysus #: 376

[Why won`t you answer my questions?? Babur tore down the Ram Mandir and built a mosque on top of it. He and his descedents oppressed and humiliated Hindus for 200 years. Right? So why the hell did high-caste Hindus like Mirza Jai Singh, Raja Mann Singh, Todar Mal and countless others serve the Mughals so faithfully while their coreligionists were being oppressed? Why did they accept jagirs and lands from the Mughals? Why did they give their women to the Mughals?]

Let history show the true colors of Akbar.

``[Chitor] The great Sesodia stronghold... was difficult to approach and had tried the ingenuity of such redoubtable commanders as Ala-ud-din Khalji and Sher Shah. Akbar pressed the siege... It became one of the great set-pieces of the age, avidly followed, gloriously recorded and in the end bloodily concluded. With flaames engulfing their womenfolk, the defenders sallied forth in another suicidal jauhar. It was followed by Akbar`s gratuitous massacre of some twenty thousand non-combatants.``- John Keay, India: A History.

In view of such unparallelled savagery, the Rajput kings made peace with Akbar, giving him a daughter in marriage so that they were free to follow their religion and protect their subjects. No doubt personal motives also played a part in their decision to abandon hostilities against the Mughals. But, if not for the sacrifice of a few Hindu princesses to the lust of Mughal kings, all of Rajputana would either have been depopulated or converted by force into Muslims.

You, Dionysus, seem to exult in the savagery of these proto-Nazis of the 12th century. Actually, the Nazis were kind, compared to the sultans of Delhi, since they didn`t kill the population wholesale in occupied territories. Your bloodthirsty ecstasy at the excesses of the Islamic thugs is proof that one may not have to go to a madrassah to turn out to be a fiend in human form.

Ref Harpreet #: 400

[Presumably you would also like to see those people like Advani and Thackeray terminated with extreme prejudice for their roles in the post Ayodhya riots?

You cannot decry 1984 and in the next breath not mention 1992..........]

People like Jagdish Tytler were clearly identified as those who incited mobs. Successive Congress govts have prevented his arrest and trial and hence my suggestion for justice.

I view Bal Thakre as a thug on a par with Tytler. If you think I am a BJP supporter, you are mistaken. For his part in the Bombay riots, Thakre deserves to be hanged.

As for Advani, he incited the destruction of the Babri Masjid. He can be held culpable for creating the atmosphere that led to loss of lives in Ayodhya but he is not a murderer in the same sense as a Thakre or a Tytler.

harimau,

{{Have you even thought how those totally naked Naga sannyasis keep alive in the winter in North India when ordinary mortals succumb to the cold wave?}}

No, but I`m sure you`ll be thinking about them while youre pathetic butt freezes. Make sure your lingum stays warm.

Mr Rashid #402

Inspite of the extreme provocation caused by your unwarranted comments, I *refuse * to get into a mud-slinging match with you. So according to you, I am an ``uneducated`` trained techie, having no ``Ilm``. I agree with you. I am glad that I have no ``Ilm`` after looking at the so called ``Ilm-wallas`` like yourself. Now comming to the topic, I have also done some research on Kashmir and related issues, and have reached that it is not what you think it is. I am ready to discuss with you anytime, but let`s leave it since you are obviously not in a mood to listen to someone else`s viewpoint. You would rather prefer senseless personal attacks to an objective discussion. Thank God, I have no ``Ilm``. I am free to exercise my logic and reasoning to analyse both the sides of an issue that an Ilm-walla might probably miss.

Sincerely

PS Ilm, in my dictionary means having capability to analyse objectively an issue without bringing irrationality into the picture.

Ref shankar #: 401

[Keep your money, pal.]

You mean, there are fools who pay you money? Of course; they are crazy, aren`t they? Tell me, Quack, how do I get into this racket?

[Free advice; dip your hiney in the sacred waters off Allahbad & stay there.]

The expected 70 million people who are and will be going to the Kumbh Mela in Allahabad this year -- and people who share their spirit -- are those who will keep Hinduism alive despite the loss of their shrines. They will carry the flame of faith in their hearts but will not use it to burn down somebody else`s home. People like you are probably deriding the faith of these people in your drawing rooms as you sip your cocktails while watching the news of the Kumbh Mela on TV and commenting on their stupidity.

Have you even thought how those totally naked Naga sannyasis keep alive in the winter in North India when ordinary mortals succumb to the cold wave? But, if scientific inquiry was your forte, you wouldn`t be practicing voodoo in a white coat.

Pankaj #389

Even after your degree you think that killing of humans is right because they are demanding their rights.

Even after your degree you think that Indian forces did not enter Kashmir on the request of Kashmiri Rajah and later gobbled it up.

Then a non degreed illiterate in your country thinks the same way.

I don`t think you are educated. At most you have a degree to perform your technical work. If that is called education by you then I would say that you don`t have ``Ilm``

harimau,

{{Dr. Headshrinker will diagnose paranoia so I shall not give him the pleasure of getting one more patient, even a non-paying one}}

Keep your money, pal. Free advice; dip your hiney in the sacred waters off Allahbad & stay there.

Harimau:

Presumably you would also like to see those people like Advani and Thackeray terminated with extreme prejudice for their roles in the post Ayodhya riots?

I know what people with power can do. It doesnt matter if it is Sikh or Muslim, Congress or BJP..... your rhetoric ends in killings.



You cannot decry 1984 and in the next breath not mention 1992..........

Your path will lead India to a cursed future. If you want to discuss historical matters disspassionately do so. But words DO mean things in India. That is why we have to watch what we say.

Harpareet,

Thankyou for your support. I am glad that finally

there is an Indian on Chowk I can call my friend.

:)

Yasser

Akash,

That is old news. By the way arent you the one who was claiming that Jinnah was a parsi? Kindly read more before you utter historical fallacies. Jinnah though extremely liberal was a Khoja Shia Muslim and then an ithna ashari Shia. And you had the audacity to accuse me, who is the perhaps much more well read than you are to check my facts. Is there no fairness?

Read and then write.

Thankyou

Yasser

PS It is also a fact that Jinnah was anti Khilafat Movement, a supporter of Ataturk, and the only Pro Khilafat Leader in the Congress was Gandhi.

ylh#391,

Ignore Harimau ylh, you describe him as an Indian friend, believe me he is no friend of any Indian. The man is a clown. He is trying to goad and insult everyone. Your opinions are well known to everyone you dont need to justify them to someone like him.

regards

Harpreet

Ref Harpreet #: 394

[Pankaj, these wounds will also begin to heal when those responsible for inciting the riots are fully prosecuted by the courts, and the bai-sharaam Congress party gets rid of the damned Gandhi progeny.]

In one of my replies to JSandhu, which Chowk editors in their wisdom did not publish (should I claim it was deliberately withheld to paint me as anti-everybody-not-Hindu, Dr. Headshrinker will diagnose paranoia so I shall not give him the pleasure of getting one more patient, even a non-paying one) I said my reaction to Indira Gandhi`s assassination was that the killers should have gotten Rajiv Gandhi so as to eliminate the dynasty. Well known thugs who were involved in those riots such as Jagdish Tytler should be terminated with extreme prejudice because they will never be brought to justice because they will be able to start mob riots if they are arrested as Indira Gandhi did when she was arrested after the Emergency.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/22inter.htm
For those Pakistani bleeding hearts who want Indians `to mind their own business` simultaneously preaching about `Pakistani assistance to free oppressed peoples in India`.

Sadhana

Pankaj#378,

I agree with every word you say with regards to Punjab. I personally could never suppport the Congress party but the Congress party does not equal Hindus. As you know Pankaj, Sikhs and Hindus are branches of the same tree. Hindu Punjabis and Sikhs are highly intermixed culturally. My family is part Hindu-Punjabi. Some people cannot understand this and only want to see hate prevail.

Pankaj, these wounds will also begin to heal when those responsible for inciting the riots are fully prosecuted by the courts, and the bai-sharaam Congress party gets rid of the damned Gandhi progeny. But it seems that will never happen. It is also for this reason that I oppose people like Harimau and his destructive creed of hate.

regards

Harpreet

``I hope you understand the significance of the attack on the Harmandir sahib. It says a lot about your position in the Indian Union. Accept it or not, you`re colonized subjects now, mate.``

One thing I will never accept Dionysus is being patronised and lectured to by a condescending Pakistani about the status of the Sikhs in India.

I know perfectly well the role Zia and his minions and the Pakistani state played in the conflagration of the 1980`s. We all do. We are not stupid. We all know the fun you doubtless had reading the reports about murders and killings.

You always talk about the ``hegemony`` and ``colonising`` of India, yet it seems to me that you are an avowed Punjabi Muslim nationalist.Punjabi Muslim nationalism is just as assertive and hegemonic as any Indian creed (I will never forget the reaction in the drawing rooms of Lahore after they heard of the rape of Bengali women by the proud Punjabi army of Pakistan..... it would improveme their ``genes`` I seem to remember reading....)

My point is Dionysus the crocodile tears for Sikhs that you cry dont fool me or anyone else. Shed them for the Sindhis and Bengalis and Mohajirs and Baluchis and Shias and Ahmadiyas before questioning or interfering in Sikh affairs with a hidden agenda. By all means you have every right to comment if you are genuinely concerned, but I sense you are not, so please do me a favour.

I am not so crass or stupid to claim Pakistan should be dismembered because of these political grievances and the violence of the state. I cant be bothered to talk about the reality of Khalistan but maybe one day we can talk about it. To many Pakistanis though the Sikhs are only seen as chamchay to be manipulated to get at the hated ``Hindus``. And believe me Dionysus, that makes me very, very angry to see such two-faced ``compassion``.

I love Punjabi culture and I am fascinated by Pakistan because as the majority community in that country the divided Punjab means that at some level, somewhere I dont know how, Pakistan is also a part of my identity. I am drawn to it by invisible forces I dont understand. Alot of people talk about Punjabiyat and how the Punjab should have gained independance itself. I have never been inclined to agree being a realist as well as a romantic. These days even less so.

regards

Harpreet

http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000625mag-taliban.htmlThe Education of a Holy Warrior

THE UNIVERSITY OF JIHAD

In a Pakistani religious school called the Haqqania madrasa, Osama bin Laden is a hero, the Taliban`s leaders are famous alums and the next generation of mujahedeen is being militantly groomed.

By JEFFREY GOLDBERG Photographs By Laurent Van Der Stockt



On campus at the Haqqania madrasa, which has ``placed`` more students in the Taliban leadership than any other school in the world





About two hours east of the Khyber Pass, in the North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan, alongside the Grand Trunk Road, sits a school called the Haqqania madrasa. A madrasa is a Muslim religious seminary, and Haqqania is one of the bigger madrasas in Pakistan: its mosques and classrooms and dormitories are spread over eight weed-covered acres, and the school currently enrolls more than 2,800 students. Tuition, room and board are free; the students are, in the main, drawn from the dire poor, and the madrasa raises its funds from wealthy Pakistanis, as well as from devout, and politically minded, Muslims in the countries of the Persian Gulf

``

All those interested visit the above site. Yes,JIHAD IS THE ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN FOR PAKISTANIS.

Good luck

Attacks are fine, but when Indians like Harimau attribute such BS as Medressah education and Pro Khilafat BS to me ... thats just too much.

I appeal to everyone not to deliberately try and misrepresent my views. I have made my Kemalist viewpoint very clear, then why is there a need on the part of our Indian friends to misrepresent me??

Harimau,

When have I sung the praises of the Khilafat? Have I not made my secular Pakistani Nationalist stance very clear? Is my admiration for Ataturk not evident????????

Kindly read before you write!!!!!!!

Krashid#387

``What do you think Indian forces were doing for the last 10 years.``

What do you think jihadis were doing for the last 10 years.

``If they could do more they would have done it.``

True, actually the weakness lies with us. Indians will make sure that ``they``(authorities) can do more in future.

``As far as crossing the International border. Lets do it also.``

I dont know from where did you find this ridiculous suggestion in my writing. On the contrary, I have always supported LoC to be made permanent border and elevating Kashmir to a status of completely autonomous state from the present state of partial autonomy it has. Your itch to cross the border is beyond my understanding.

``Why posing as educated``

Well Mr. Rashid, I dont ``pose`` as educated, I am. I express my opinions as they are. If you dont like, you are free to disagree.

Sincerely

Krashid#387

Ok Mr. Rashid, to each his own. There is no use bickering about morality, justice etc when it was dead long back and buried deep in the earth. You people(not necessarily you) train jihadis for murdering people on this side of the border and we shall reply back in the same language. Let this human tragedy continue. Only when one side is vanquished, will it come to a stop. The loss of life and property that comes with it is inevitable and should be accepted as a necessary means of survival. Only time will pronounce the outcome. Most of a billion people of India will continue to support army to crush the jihadis and I understand Pakistanis will make a similar attempt to crush Indian people and forces. Have your wish, let the war continue.

Sincerely

Pankaj #386

What do you think Indian forces were doing for the last 10 years.

If they could do more they would have done it.

As far as crossing the International border. Lets do it also.

Why posing as educated.

Please read the following news. It is published by all the leading dailies including dawn.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/21jk.htm

``Seven persons -- four civilians and two soldiers -- were killed and 35 others wounded when militants blew up a state transport bus at village Chattul near Kreeri in northern Barramullah district Sunday morning``

This finally seals the fate of Ceasefire. Look at what happened in the last two months. More than 60 soldiers were killed with their hands tied to their back in the wake of Govt order of not initiating any fresh combats till fired. At the very beginning, six Hindus were kidnapped and shot, followed by a few Sikhs. An attack on Red fort followed. An unsuccessful attempt to assasinate Faruk Abdullah was made and PM Vajpayee was threatened with an attack on his PMO. A few days back, an unsucccessful bid was made to storm Srinagar airport killing many armymen. And now finally, an attack on State Transport bus carrying passengers! Enough is enough. No more ceasefire.Alas the Lashkars and Hizbuls had their way finally. I wish India could launch a massive retaliatory strike on these jihadis, much like Israil. These jihadis can understand only the language of force.

Ref Harimau # 379

[Xxabbu: did you find the story about the killing of non-combatants in Afghanistan heart-wrenching? ]

I find many incidents heart-wrenching including the ones you mention. What was really depressing in your case was the likelihood that your kids` childhood might might have been poisoned by all your bigotry and insecurity.

I believe you are capable of cogent thought, despite my earlier diagnosis. So why dont you answer the question most everyone has asked already : Why persecute todays muslims for crimes real and imaginary committed by muslim invaders who lived centuries ago in a different, crueller age? In what way can todays muslims be said to be responsible for these excesses ? Are these people time travellers who went back to Babar`s time and became part of the horde which sacked Ayodhya?

Can you get it in your head that wrongs committed in another time (Babar, etc) or another place (Afghanistan, Chechnya, whatever) cannot justify a wrong here and now. That kind of logic is reserved solely for girlfriends : ``Oh, so I am a flirt, huh? What about all those times that YOU flirted, specifically on 22 Jan 99, 15 Dec 99, 3 Feb 00, 12 Sept 00, 1 Jan 01, ... ??`` (this conversation is by no means over; there are MANY more juicy grudges yet to be retrieved from long-term memory where they were stored for precisely this occasion. I`m sure all you guys here know what I mean, right?)

xxabbu

Dionysus

Extremely sorry for leaving Manu Smriti Part of your questions!

No, Sir, in India no legislation is made after consulting Manu and no judiciary go through this treatise before giving a verdict. You must be finding it strange keeping in view issues regarding Riba, Wali and Sharia Court prnouncing Law but then India and Indians take life a little differently.

Manu was a great thinker but his suggestions not suited to modern times are not to be noticed. I am sure You understand. If not, please feel free to get back.

Dionysis

You have been asking answers to your two questions.

Here these are:-

Rape of lower caste women by upper castes?

Reasons are same as those of Waderas and Maliks doing to women working in their fields or in their houses or living in their villages with ONE DIFFERENCE.

In India, these lower castes or classes started asserting themseves about a decade back and so upper castes or class tortures get it back where it hurts most. Please get acquainted with recent developments in Bihar and UP. It is always tit for tat from both sides. Women being most vulnerable in any society, they are always used as pawns.

Upper Castes Hindus cosying up with invaders?

Reasons are same as those of Mir Jaffer and his ilk. Do go through some elementary books on sociology, political science and economics to get some enlightenment. In any case, these traitors are not India`s heros but since history is studied scholarly in India, they are not ignored either. By the way, was Jahangir`s mother concubine? Then I must say that history of Pakistan will have to be written again. Imagine, Pakistan being proud of concubine`s children!

Do another Murder of History.

Happy Reading and Best of Luck!

More Questions?

Harimau #379

So you find it heart bleeding if 100 Muslims die of hands of Muslim in Afghanistan in fighting between equals.

But your heart soars if hundreds of Muslims die in Kashmir at the hands of security forces in custody.

Does this Kofi Annan has any shame left to enquire into those 100 deaths and leave 70,000 deaths in Kashmir without inquiry because it can force Afghanistan with terror and cannot force India even to allow UN observers.

In response to harimau (Reply # 379)
Dear Harimau:

Your statement: ``Individually, I have no problem with any Muslims.``

My reply: Any Muslim? How about Imam Bukhari of Delhi? I am sure, you have major problems with him as individual and for his rhetoric.

Your statement suggests that you have problem with Muslims as a collectivity. If so, what needs to be done such that you emphathize with the Muslims as a collectivity, at least in India?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Misunderstandings start early in our part of the world. In an article by Haider Cheema in the Friday times, he points out that this mindless hatred is propagated in India too and he is challenging Indians to show same outrage on their side.

The link:

http://thefridaytimes.hypermart.net/

OUTRAGE (Opinion)

Some excerpts:

``Another thing I find amusing, as well as irritating, about PTV is the style of presenting a disaster occurring in India. Any accident in India, even a natural calamity like a flood or a cyclone, is announced so triumphantly on khabarnama that it gives the impression that Pakistan was wholly responsible for the incident. The beaming newsreader practically bursts with happiness as he announces the number of casualties in a given train crash or flood. Basic humanity does not stretch across the border, there is a sickening smugness in the way we are told of the women and children killed by dacoits, typhoid epidemics or droughts. This shows how obsessed we are with India`s losses.``

``Though we can play cricket with India, watching them do well would simply be unpatriotic. After the 1999 world cup, PTV `sports time` started showing all the world cup matches in order, but when it came to the Super Six match between India and Pakistan, which India won, the match was skipped, and never shown at all.``

I just heard on the National Public Radio that the Taliban, after taking an opposition-held town in Afghanistan, shot dead 100 non-combatant civilians. Secretary General of the UN Kofi Annan has called for an inquiry and speedy rendering of justice. Rationalize that for me.

I know the problem with you namby-pamby Hindus. You are all thinking: My neighbor is a Muslim and he is such a nice person. Why, he just delivered us a box of the most delicious sweets for Eid.

Individually, I have no problem with any Muslims. They have come as friends to eat in my house and I have been welcomed into their homes as a friend. (This must come as a shock to you, Dr. Headshrinker, because all of a sudden your earlier diagnosis is not all that accurate). But anytime you get a critical mass of them together, you have the potential for serious harm. Again, I am not talking about the Pakistani cardiologist in Queens or the Electrical Engineer in San Jose. I am talking about the lower socio-economic class which can be whipped into a frenzy. Not that the cardiologist or the electrical engineer can be excused if they send money to some outfit in Iran, Pakistan or Lebanon for fighting the infidels.

This potential for harm to outsiders is what the world has to guard against. Perhaps we need to also do something about the Islamic venom that turns on its own people a la Afghanistan today but we all need to douse our houses with water before we start thinking of helping the arsonist`s family.

Xxabbu: did you find the story about the killing of non-combatants in Afghanistan heart-wrenching? I bet you don`t find it as bad as when Indian soldiers shoot dead 3 civilians in Kashmir for whom your heart will bleed profusely.

Harpreet and Dionysis

Mr. Dionysis, I went through the web-site you provided. It still does not confirm your observations about ``habit`` and ``routine``. Mr Dionysis, I have been to villages(our family migrated to city a generation back) as well as in the city and I know the ground reality better than you. There is little doubt that caste discrimination still exists, but gone are the days when lower castes can be suppressed. In UP, all the villages which have more than a certain percentage of Dalits/SCs were declared Ambedkar villages(my village being one), such that only a member from SC/Dalit can stand for the Gram Panchayat elections. All this is inviting a backlash from feudal lords, who perceive it as a danger for their power. These Ambedkar villages, receive aid as a matter of priority to the other villages. Of Course, people of upper caste, at least in villages, still do not marry their daughters to a Dalit on a regular basis but this is their privilege. The point I am making is that very significant changes are occuring at the root level in Indian society because of democracy, that seek to distribute political/social/economical power equally to empower people as a whole. In the cities, it is stupid to assume that anyone from upper caste can harass a Dalit. However I have also observed that in some rural areas, where the hold of feudals is too strong, some incidents of unfair treatment do occur. But then,destruction of a deep rooted social system, is sure to take some time. The constitutional infrastructure to guarantee everybody his legitimate right is already present; the political structure in the form of democracy is also there that inherently takes care of grievances of the masses; the economy is opening up and booming. These changes will produce a synergistic effect in the near future.

Harpreet

Both of us know only too well who was responsible for Operation Blue Star. It was an evil political game played by Indira Gandhi and she paid for it. IG(Indira Gandhi) tried to project an ultra-extremist Bhindarawale to counter the influence of Akali Dals. By weakening Akali Dal, she wanted to see Congress in power in Punjab. But the wrong means never produce the right results. Bhindarawale, the epitome of extremism, that IG erected, turned against his own master(ie IG). He accepted the aid of Pakistan to garner a huge arsenal of firearms and took position inside Golden temple. What happened is history. The Congress workers led mob attacks on innocent Sikhs outside Punjab, while the extremist elements ravaged Hindus inside Punjab. However very soon the people realised their foolishness, and the peace was restored. Now Punjab is once more a flourishing state. Not much love was lost between the Sikhs and Hindus and many Sikhs/Hindus never forgave Congress for the tragedy. Little wonder Sikhs preferred to vote for BJP/Akali combine instead of Congress in the elections. This shows that there was not a religious dimension to the tragedy as is the case in Kashmir conflict. An interesting fact: The recent Planning Commission report says that Punjab has the LOWEST percentage of people living below poverty line ie 11% against the national average of 33%. Peace and prosperity has once again returned to Punjab. No Mr Dionysis, Punjab REFUSES to share the fate of Kashmir. Apka jihad aapko mubarak ho. Sikhs and Hindus always lived like brothers. Hindus will remain forever indebted to Sikhs for the sacrifice they made to protect Hidus from tyrants like Aurangjeb. I again invite you to come to Punjab, see for yourself the prosperity, and ask Sikhs if they want a separate land. You will get your answer.

Sincerely

Dionysous#

``Neither Harimanu nor any other Indian bothered disputing my contention that high-caste Hindus rape and molest low-caste Hindus as a matter of habit and routine.``

Nobody will bother you to answer that question. Do you ever wonder why? I will tell you why. A reason you will love. ``Hindus are inherently bad people. They can do things like that and not accept it as mistake. They are very bad. They even do it today. They are not Human beings but must be treated like animals.``

If you can believe in things like that, then it is better to get you before you get us.

Harimau before you bounce on me note it is written is sarcasm.

Harimau#

If you are saying this, I agree with you. Destruction of Babri Mosque is not same as what Aurangzeb did. To do something similar to Aurangzeb will be to destroy some mosque, which is without controversy in a very religious place of Muslims. The equivalent will be to destroy some mosque in Mecca/Medina or to a lesser extent to destroy some very important mosque like Jamma masjid in New Delhi which is without controversy (as far as my knowledge goes, Jamma Masjid is without any controversy).

If we were like pakistanis, we would be repeating this difference in every post. If were like them every Indian will have this difference memorized and can repeat it like parrot even in his/her sleep.

This point will be hammered so much, that the other party will so no point in reasoning with them and agree with them.

I also want a Ram Temple in Ayodhya. Hindus should be able to build at any place they want it in Ayodhya. (Of course, if it is harming the Muslims residents economically, we should take care that, they can live there and become 5 times more richer. That way we will show them that it is really important to us, and we will be putting money where our mouth is.) I do feel insecure when I have to fight for something that important for Hindus. So I do start thinking what next? I know we are in majority, but things stop looking like that.

(I know all chowkwallahs take pride in not feeling insecure. Even if you assume that I am a great-grand child of rape-victim. So what? I am no lesser human being. My insecurities are as real and baseless as are Pakistanis fear that India is out to get them. As baseless as is Indian muslims fear that every Indian will become a Hindu fascist. I think my insecurity is as reasonable as theirs.)

We should do justice so that insecurity goes away and we live peacefully. Indian Hindus insecurity can be taken care of by building the Ram Temple. What about Indian Muslim insecurity? That is why atonement is necessary.

The other difference is, you want to make Hindus very aggressive. I want them to remain soft. I would rather try to make other religion soft. Making a whole society agressive is very dangerous. Sikhism is only religion which seems, at least to Indians, to have been able to keep a balance between tolerance and aggressivness.

See what happens when you start hating a religion. You may even do not appreciate Fairdinkum. You did appreciate him with just one line at the end, but that was lost in the many things you said before it. He was the one who said that the ``He is not surprised to see the army men at sea when realising the problems in soceity.``. The armymen was saying that his religion was solution for everything. I rhink he is the single Pakistani, who (seems to me)completely untouched by fundamentalism. He likes most Indians seems to understand the right place for religion. (Though, I think he probably overreached when he said Indians lost to invaders delibrately. I guess it should be looked within the context in which he was saying. Invaders won because they were better at war and were using new ideas of warfare. Britisher defeated both Pakistanis and Indians and so can chinese do today. Not because they are more agressive. If you want to see how Babur used to fight, look at Britania encyclopedia onthe web).

before the religious zealots bounce on me:

I agree, religion can solve all problems. To me, that basically means if everyone is religious in the right way there won`t be a problem. In other word if everyone is nice then there won`t be any problems. It is an obvious fact. I do like the emphasis on an individual being more religious. To me this means urging individuals to be more religious so we produced better society. Dealing with the changing realities of today, cannot be addressed with something 1000s of years old like Vedas or any other religious text. Somethings always remain true, like be honest, be kind, be just. What changes most with time is the meaning of being ``just``.

INDIAN EXPRESS EDIT PAGE JAN 5,2001

The Politics of Paranoia

Ultimately, which is more dangerous -- phobia or frenzy

by Bharat Gupt

``Polity as Theatre`` by Prof. Harbans Mukhia (IE 28.12.2k) is the usual plea for the Great Need to White-wash History and to blame politicians, BJP in particular, of arousing frenzy for mobilisation. How else could he proclaim that ``Historical evidence regarding the existence of a Ram Temple beneath the Babri Masjid is not the issue: it is one of political direction and social vision.``

For all these years we have been told that India never recorded facts but churned out myths, and now a search for facts is to be abandoned for what, new social myths based on suppression. How many histories are we going to push under the carpet? The subjugation Australia, Americas and Africa by colonial Europe, of Druids by Romans, of Greeks by Turks and so on and on.

The solution lies not in suppressing historical wrongs, but in admtting mistakes and also strongly emphasising that nobody can seek compensation for the ancestral misdeeds from the present day peoples. However, when suppression becomes the order of the day, it invites the inevitable reaction, even as frenzy.

Whatever mobilisation the Sangh Parivar has been able to manage on the Ayodhya issue is a result of the unfounded phobia created by the Congress Party and the Communist Left that any public discussion, even in academic circles, about the history of Islamic iconoclasm against Hindu temples and culture cannot but result in witch-hunting of the Indian Muslims.

This phobia gave ample cause for the BJP to term it as Muslim protectionism and cash it for the consolidation of the Hindu vote. The unfortunate thing is that the Congress and the Marxists still persist in whipping up this phobia just as they believe that talking or teaching religions (please note there are no religious studies here from school to universities) can only lead to riots.

Islamic iconoclasm, which does not mean historical plunderings only, but also the present day Islamic fundamentalist ideology knocking at our borders day and night, of not accepting iconophilia (not just of Hinduism but of all kinds in its broadest cultural and philosophical sense) needs to be addressed , discussed and engaged in India.

This does not at all mean seeking revenge, compensation or demonising the Muslims but it certainly means acceptance of a modernity and plurality that respects idolatry. The Marxist lobby with its own prejudice against religion as ``the opium of the masses`` finds no utility in such discussions and continues with the usual phobia-mongering.

If in the past decades, a calm scrutiny of Islamic iconoclasm and its doctrine of exclusivist theocratic statehood had been undertaken without the generation of this politically motivated fear-syndrome, results would have been much better for an ideological adjustments between the Muslims and Hindus because neither the majority of Indian Muslims support iconoclasm (or even wish to ostracise the Hindu modes of worship as so many of them have already accepted these in Sufi syncretism) nor are the majority of Hindus so moved by the ancient sites to become vengeful.



Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University

Harpreet #369

I don`t hate you. Don`t be silly. I`m just having some fun with Harimanu. I seriously hope you`re not trying to blame Pakistan for the hundreds of thousands of Sikhs killed by India. We didn`t force the Sikhs to fight and we didn`t force the Indians to slaughter them. We didn`t force Indira Gandhi and the Indian army to rocket-attack the Harmandir sahib. I hope you understand the significance of the attack on the Harmandir sahib. It says a lot about your position in the Indian Union. Accept it or not, you`re colonized subjects now, mate.

Regarding the Dalits, here`s some reading for you. Read it and then come back and tell me that the Dalits aren`t waiting to take revenge:

http://www.igc.org/hrw/reports/1999/india/

HARIMANU,

Why won`t you answer my questions?? Babur tore down the Ram Mandir and built a mosque on top of it. He and his descedents oppressed and humiliated Hindus for 200 years. Right? So why the hell did high-caste Hindus like Mirza Jai Singh, Raja Mann Singh, Todar Mal and countless others serve the Mughals so faithfully while their coreligionists were being oppressed? Why did they accept jagirs and lands from the Mughals? Why did they give their women to the Mughals?

Please explain why high-caste Hindus collaborated for 700 years with the Islamic invaders and rulers.

Please also tell us what you think about the Manu Smriti, an ancient and revered Hindu law book that tells high-caste Hindus how to (mis)treat low-caste Hindus.

harimau #371
Let me ask for the nth time, whats the fun of hating people if you want to be like them?

``why a single Hindu didn`t have the guts to call Mohammed a child-molester when somebody called you a penis-worshipper.``

Because Hindus think there are many ways to God and abusing the other guys belief doesnot get us to God.

``Answer the question: has a single Muslim-majority nation ever demonstrated the capability of sustained democratic development?``

Sustained democratic development is not seen in many countries around the world. Its too soon and simplistic(and self-serving) to say that `only Muslim-majority countries` have this problem. btw, why didnot you answer the questions posed in my post highlighting India`s problems? Do you care for Muslim-majority countries problems more than India`s problems? How like a Saudi Arabian Sheikh.

``Answer the question: has a single Muslim-majority nation ever demonstrated the capability of sustained democratic development? Why then would you want to give these crazed lunatics any power to affect society?``

Because Indian democracy doesnot aim to hold what YOU TERM as `Muslim-majority` countries as role models, Mr Saudi Arabian Shiekh.

`` How do you explain your illogic in trying to get the Islamic horses to drink just because you have dragged them to the water of democracy?``

How do you explain your illogic in claiming to be a proponent of `democracy` by refusing to recognise the concept of equality and dignity of all human beings? Indian democracy wouldnot exist even as it does if its founders and executors held your opinions. What part of this contradiction in your pathetic views do you not understand???

The very thing you are claiming credit for without reason, you are violating the principles of, ie, recognising the equality and dignity of all human beings.


Sadhana

Ref fairdinkum #: 364

[I wrote a simple, straight forward account of my visit to Mathura... what`s with kalashankov, rape of women etc?]

Don`t tell me you have forgotten your beloved Pakistan.

In India, Hindu religious students learn their sacred texts and chant them. In Islamic madrassahs they are trained in the use of Kalashnikovs.

Hindus are asked to donate a few thousand rupees to feed the students.

Have you sent in your donation to the local madrassah? The brochure says that the cost of a Kalashnikov is Rs. 14,000. (NYT Report, not the flight of my fancy.)

There IS a difference in religious education, in case you have forgotten.

Ref shankar #: 368

What took you so long in the bathroom? What kind of a quack are you if you can`t think of an anti-emetic to stop your puking?

On second thoughts, don`t answer my first question.

[When guys like harimau exhibits such behavior in the real world, the treatment is very simple. We call security, put him in a straight jacket, give him an injection of a powerful antipsychotic & let him languish in a Seclusion room for 8 hours before he comes back to reality.]

The reality is that Islamic thuggery didn`t stop with Aurangzeb. The most recent case on a massive scale is East Timor. That is reality. You seem to be hallucinating and you need Narcon to jolt you back into this world.

[Its the first lesson that every student of psychiatry learns--sometimes the hard way:)]

And I am sure it has been pretty hard for you all the way through.

You know, when I was a student, the top 60% of the students went into hard sciences and engineering. The bottom 40% went to medical colleges. The results show very clearly.

[So, if you want my advice (no charge)-- ``drill`` a hole between your ears & let his words go into one ear & out of the other.]

I guess in your case, you didn`t need the surgical drill at all.

It is interesting that of all the possibilities in medicine, you have chosen the one field that comes closest to witch doctoring. Have you yet taken a WD degree from the University of Ouagadougou?

Ref sadna#: 367

[Yes and I asked you what is the difference between you and a Saudi Arabian Shiekh, its apparent there is none.]

I don`t have a harem. Unfortunately.

[Its interesting to see you nurture those qualities in yourself(blind hatred of others) which you accuse of causing massacres elsewhere in the world. A bit confused, aren`t you?]

First of all you are assuming hatred just because I ask you to read from historical evidence. You then proceed to make the claim that this blind hatred causes massacres, with the implication that I am calling for a massacre. But you refuse to read my posts in a calm manner. I have twice shown how my posts might be re-worded by Bilal Ahmad but that is not my style and I am not going to apologize for it. Nor am I going to apologize for asking why a single Hindu didn`t have the guts to call Mohammed a child-molester when somebody called you a penis-worshipper.

I am not confused. You are so distracted in your frenzy to appear as a reasonable, loving, kind, love-thy-enemy-until-you-make-him-your-friend (though you are likely to be raped and killed by Islamic thugs before that would ever happen), namby-pamby, hand-wringing apologist that my posts sends your blood pressure racing higher and higher. Watch out, you may pop an artery.

Ref sadna #: 363

[IN A DEMOCRACY ALL HAVE RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES TOWARDS THE STATED IDEALS OF THE STATE. In such a democracy, destroying each others religious places is incompatible with collective responsibility.]

A democracy consists of like-minded people working cooperatively for the common good of the nation, with each person of legal age having a voice in the form of a vote in regularly-scheduled periodic elections. Answer the question: has a single Muslim-majority nation ever demonstrated the capability of sustained democratic development? Why then would you want to give these crazed lunatics any power to affect society?

I can now expect Ali1 and YLH to sing the praises of the Khilafat and Iran and Turkey. Well, the Khilafat is long gone and Iran they shoot the dissidents and put the women in burqas (this of course goes well with those women `who wear the hijab by choice`) and in Turkey they suppress the Kurd`s by destroying their linguistic and cultural heritage. Umairr would normally jump in and start saying that Pakistanis need to evolve their own form of democracy which would of course not be the same as the one-man-one-vote plebiscite he demands in Kashmir. But I am sure he suddenly had the urge to bury his infant daughter in the sands of the California desert and is trying desperately to overcome this by reading those portions of the Qu`ran that gives better rights to women than Arab nomadic societies of the 7th century did and thus elliptically prohibits burying female babies(which is his usual crappy explanation about Islam`s mistreatment of women).

At least Ali1 and YLH can be explained away by their madrassah education. How do you explain your illogic in trying to get the Islamic horses to drink just because you have dragged them to the water of democracy?

Ref MaheshG #: 348

[Harimau, I sent you the article to show you how similar your rantings and ravings were to that of Ithiah(?). His tirades are against upper castes and yours are against muslims.]

You are joyously entering the company of that `I love my black buffalo` idiot when you tell me this.

Let me spell out the differences since you seem incapable of thinking for yourself.

As Hindus spread throughout India, they acknowledged and accepted the beliefs of native inhabitants. At the highest level, the Dravidian god Shiva has been co-opted into the Hindu pantheon and is given a highly exalted position on a par with Vishnu who is clearly an Aryan god. A Muslim would have (and did) smote the phallic symbol representing Shiva as an abomination and idolatry. Quite a few of the natives/adivasis believed in a matriarchal system and worshipped a female deity. These female deities were honored as re-incarnations of Durga/Parvati and fanciful legends were created to integrate them more fully into the Hindu religion. The Tamil god Muruga has become Kartik, the son of Shiva and the Kerala goddess Bhagawati is now Durga. An entire book called Skanda-Puran was written, in Sanskrit by brahmins (which you all conveniently forget in your desire to blacken the name of Hinduism), exalting Kartik. The local deity of Karnataka who killed the buffalo-headed demon Mahisha is venerated as Durga and an entire poem in Sanskrit was composed and those shlokas are sung by all Hindus in praise of that deity. You can wander through any small town which has a temple and you will find that the local gods and goddesses retain a local name but are said to be Shiva or Vishnu or Durga who came down to save that village under that name. Thus, any society the Hindus came into contact with was accepted with open arms. Their deities were not ridiculed but elevated to the highest level in Hindu mythology. If in their ignorance people worshipped a local deity as the one who prevents small-pox, that goddess was usually integrated into Hinduism as another form of Kali. The Bengalis worship Kali to the exclusion of Shiva and Vishnu. How does that fit into orthodox Hinduism? Ask a non-Muslim Bengali who he is and he will tell you he is a Hindu. He is not going to think that he belongs to a special sect that worships a blood-thirsty female deity though that is exactly the case.

In this same sense, this buffalo-crazed man`s tribe was absorbed into Hinduism. Yet, under the modern affirmative action programs in India, he has been given special privileges in terms of preferential admission to educational institutions, scholarships to pay for it, quotas in government jobs, etc. After all this, he comes out and says Hindus oppressed him and that Islam and Christianity preach equality. It is clear that his education has done him no good because he seems not to realize that the Muslims would have depopulated his country, cut down the tree under which his deities would have been installed in a shrine, broken the idols, killed every buffalo just to piss him off, and taken his children captive into slavery and his wife and daughters as sex slaves.

I quote the history of Islamic cruelty on a scale unknown to mankind. This idiot is ranting and raving against those who have honored his beliefs. You think the two are the same.

Your education is proof that India specializes in a curriculum that teaches Hindus to start cringing when anyone who calls himself a minority comes whingeing.

Dionysus#335,

``Just wait till the Dalits, with Pakistani help and assistance, take revenge for 5000 years of real (not imaginary) and savage persecution at the hands of high-caste Hindus.``

Aint going to happen mate. You tried it with Khalistanis and thousands of innocents died. Now you say you only have issues with ``upper caste`` Hindus but in reality you are only trying to justify an absolute overarching hatred of all Hindus, all of India and all that is not Muslim and Pakistani. I mean dont be cowardly about it, admit it. You hate me as much as you hate Harimau. Just because I am Indian. So even though I think Harimau is a demented buffoon, I also dont take very kindly to your rantings, because you`d be quite happy to plant a bomb to kill some brahmins that would also kill me. Because you have a ``scorched-earth`` hatred.

So look after the raped women on your own side of the border. And dont insult women by using rape as a weapon to beat each other over the head with. It is disgusting.

regards

Harpreet

fairdinkum,

{{You need to calm down... take few deep breaths... i am calling shankar (our resident shrink) in the mean time...}}

When guys like harimau exhibits such behavior in the real world, the treatment is very simple. We call security, put him in a straight jacket, give him an injection of a powerful antipsychotic & let him languish in a Seclusion room for 8 hours before he comes back to reality. If he does`nt, we go through the same procedure over & over again till he does. It is perfectly legal, ethical & humane way of treatment.

There`s no sense in debating or trying to reason with a person who is flagrantly psychotic. It just riles him up even more. Its the first lesson that every student of psychiatry learns--sometimes the hard way:)

In the cyberworld, alas, such treatment is`nt possible. So, if you want my advice (no charge)-- ``drill`` a hole between your ears & let his words go into one ear & out of the other. Even better, use the scroll arrows to bypass his posts. When I tried to reason with that other lunatic, Jay, he gave me that advice. I`m eternally grateful to Jay for giving me that advice. In fact, all the other Chowksters used it & Jay faded away into the sunset.

harimau #366
``How nice of you to characterize any existing Islamic nation on earth!``
Yes and I asked you what is the difference between you and a Saudi Arabian Shiekh, its apparent there is none.
`` Of course you want Hindus to be nice to Muslims. Because the Muslims have been so nice to everybody else in the world.``

``I merely warn that Islam is a scourge on the face of the earth and it makes Muslims do unspeakable things.``

Going by YOUR posts, your thoughts and your claim to be a Hindu, all Hindus(including myself) should be put into lunatic asylums. But, no I choose to judge people by THEIR OWN actions not of others who are 1000s of miles away.

Its interesting to see you nurture those qualities in yourself(blind hatred of others) which you accuse of causing massacres elsewhere in the world. A bit confused, aren`t you?

Sadhana

Ref sadna #: 363

[There is no cure for a chronic permanent affliction like yours, so I`m not trying

So stop posting already!

[IN A DEMOCRACY ALL HAVE RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES TOWARDS THE STATED IDEALS OF THE STATE. In such a democracy, destroying each others religious places is incompatible with collective responsibility.]

So how about the legal dispute about who owns the property on which Babri Masjid stood? Why are you avoiding the legal issue?

[You can cut off as many thieves hands and gouge out as many eyes for eyes, organise a razing party every 3 months, accept the return favors in between, who cares?]

How nice of you to characterize any existing Islamic nation on earth! I hope the Pakistanis thank you for describing Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Pakistan, which seem to be your ideal countries to live in as a minority.

[`Being nice to Muslims`

May I ask who are you to choose to `be nice` to your equals? I think this is the crux, and this is why you didnot answer my question previously. You DO NOT believe that ALL India`s citizens have the right to live with dignity and pride, you think YOU have to grant permission to others `to join the club`. Delusions of grandeur:you are the one who desperately needs the Valium.]

Of course you want Hindus to be nice to Muslims. Because the Muslims have been so nice to everybody else in the world.

Let us ignore the Armenian massacre by the Turks at the turn of the century though it is not as old as Aurangzeb`s massacres. How about Bangladesh in 1971? That is an internal affair of Pakistan. How about the time the Islamic thugs wanted that Javanese Suharto out but went and raped Chinese women? Couldn`t they find any Javanese/Indonesian women but had to take it out on a minority 3% population? How about East Timor where the Islamic thugs (in this case, the Indonesian Army and its militia) expelled 300,000 out of 600,000 people, destroyed every single building in Dili (doesn`t that remind you of the sultans of Delhi?), took about 100,000 people captive to West Timor and other places in Indonesia, all because the poor East Timorese (Christians, mind you) voted for independence? Ever thought there might be a connection between the fact that the dominant group is a bunch of Muslims? Coincidence? I don`t think so.

This is nothing but a continuation of organized Islamic thuggery that started in the 7th century but you CANNOT admit it because you believe in the equality of human beings. You would be so anxious to defend the honor of the Muslims that you would find some way to whitewash these crimes against humanity. Well, as Solitude likes to point out, Islam makes people mindless automatons, capable of only toting guns, killing everything in sight, raping women, and then going back and crying that the hated antagonists made them do it. Well, I for one am NOT buying that crap about `he made me do it, Ma`. If anything, that he is Allah. So, if you have difficulty accepting the fact that the Muslims always have one rule for themselves and the exact opposite for all others, that is a problem you have to live with. I merely warn that Islam is a scourge on the face of the earth and it makes Muslims do unspeakable things.

Tell me one country where Muslims have lived in peace with their neighbors except when threatened with overwhelming devastation? Ever thought about how nice the Muslims in Yugoslavia behaved under Tito, how the Central Asian Muslims were model citizens of the world under Communism, etc.? It requires a Stalin to overcome Allah because Stalin had no problem dispatching the Muslims to their heavenly rewards if they lifted their little fingers. You want to give them equal rights. What a fool! What a raving lunatic!

Harimau #349

Looks like truth is your concubine.

Anyway you treat it like that.

Is it necessary for you to answer every post even if you don`t have a mental capacity to do so.

harami,

I wrote a simple, straight forward account of my visit to Mathura... what`s with kalashankov, rape of women etc?

You need to calm down... take few deep breaths... i am calling shankar (our resident shrink) in the mean time...

harimau #363
There is no cure for a chronic permanent affliction like yours, so I`m not trying.

``By the same token, what does any Hindu today have to do with what happened in Ayodhya with respect to the Babri Masjid? Why do Hindus fall all over themselve saying we shouldn`t have done that``

Aurangzeb and whoever gives you nightmares DIDNOT preside over a republic/democracy, he was an absolute authority. In case you havenot noticed, we are not a monarchy or a totalitarian state, we are a democracy, where the rule of law prevails by the will of the people, all of whom are equal in the eyes of the state. IN A DEMOCRACY ALL HAVE RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES TOWARDS THE STATED IDEALS OF THE STATE. In such a democracy, destroying each others religious places is incompatible with collective responsibility.

You happen to consider medievial mindsets and methods appropriate for todays` world. Well, go buy an island and live there by yourself. You can cut off as many thieves hands and gouge out as many eyes for eyes, organise a razing party every 3 months, accept the return favors in between, who cares?

`Being nice to Muslims`
May I ask who are you to choose to `be nice` to your equals? I think this is the crux, and this is why you didnot answer my question previously. You DO NOT believe that ALL India`s citizens have the right to live with dignity and pride, you think YOU have to grant permission to others `to join the club`. Delusions of grandeur:you are the one who desperately needs the Valium.

``how would you feel if the Hindus say that they are the ones who are are disadvantaged in India and if equality is to be achieved in the religious field perhaps an equal number of mosques should be destroyed? Do Hindus have a valid point when they make such a statement?``

I would think those Hindus who depend on destruction of religious places to rid themselves of their feeling of `disadvantage` are no better(actually worse) than the barbaric conquerors who felt the same. Who needs to think of such pathetic people except as mental cases.

Its obvious you havenot lived in India or you would not keep crapping about `religious` disdvantages in terms of number of temples. I`m yet to hear of any Hindus who couldnot find anywhere to worship.

Yes, I have heard of starving Hindus, but you ignored that post completely.

Sadhana

Ref sadna #: 353

[You ask ``Can you explain why Aurangzeb built a mosque near the Krishna temple in Mathura?...Do you think Aurangzeb could have built mosques in places other than those venerated by Hindus?...would any person of the Islamic faith choose to answer the questions?``

Why should any person of the Islamic faith be asked to answer you? Aurangzeb has been dead and gone many hundred years, he was not alone in his barbarism, the problem in not current, noone is making a case for destroying each others religious places in India anymore, (except for some notable exceptions). Finally, what does any person of Islamic faith today have to do with what Aurangzeb did?]

By the same token, what does any Hindu today have to do with what happened in Ayodhya with respect to the Babri Masjid? Why do Hindus fall all over themselves saying we shouldn`t have done that, maybe we should be really nice to those Muslims by being servants in their house, we need to atone for the sin, blah, blah, blah...? Because that happened less than 10 years back? Does that mean a Kannadiga has to repent and pay reparations? Some poor Assamese or Bengali has to repent? Some Oriya will have to feel guilty?

Why don`t you just say that`s how the cookie crumbles and move on? After all, that is your answer to the destruction of the artistic and cultural heritage of India. That is your answer to the massive depopulation due to the killings of civilians and non-combatants. But no, we need to make our minority Muslims feel safe and happy to be in India. Well, let me tell ya, a whole lot of Indians are unhappy in India and the Muslims are welcome to join the club. Last time I heard, they even got a country to go to (it has now become two) in case they find more happiness there. I still haven`t seen a rush for immigrant visas to Bangladesh or Pakistan.

One disused building of no artistic value situated on property illegally expropriated was demolished. You know, that happens in big cities in India. They ask you, where is your building permit, why are you encroaching on government property, on public land? They send in bulldozers and clear the buildings. Legally speaking, that was all that was done in Ayodhya. You can make a big deal out of it but it was a property dispute between two groups and one of them decided they have waited long enough.

But that is not the way you look at it.

If the other party was not a minority, would you feel the same level of concern? When they started clearing out the hutments along the railroad tracks in Bombay in Nov last year, where was your outrage? When the Bombay Municipal Commissioner MR. Khairnar was demolishing illegal buildings, where was your concern for the property rights of the owners?

When you say you loathe me, that is proof that you are one of those Hindus who has been raised to hate himself/herself. I don`t know what your complex is. I just tell the Muslims that they got paid back in their own coin in the Babri Masjid case.

So, read my posts again, perhaps after taking a dose of Valium. I said:

[To all those Pakistanis and the so-called `assertive` Muslims of India who demand proof of a level playing ground in India:

How about if in India we destroy EVERY SINGLE MOSQUE in NOrthern India, from Gujarat in the west to Assam in the east, from Kashmir in the north to Andhra in the south? That would level the playing field as for as freedom of worship is concerned. How about a reverse-jizya on Muslims for the next 600 years of anywhere from 6 to 30% of income as levied by the sultans of Delhi? That would level the economic playing field. How about appropriation of lots of Muslim owned property? That ought to compensate for the lands lost by India`s Hindus at the hands of the thugs who called themselves sultans, nawabs, nizams, etc.]

Have you heard of the term `rhetorical question`?

What you read is what you WANT to read. Your pathetic self-loathing leads you to conclusions you WANT to reach, which is that Hindus are bad and Hindutva is bad.

Let me re-phrase that in the inimitable style of Prof. Bilal Ahmad:

Pakistanis and Indian Muslims who believe that there is not enough social and economic justice for minorities in India:

Considering that there is incontrovertible proof that Muslim invaders and their active collaborators/converts in India destroyed several culturally and religiously important Hindu shrines, how would you feel if the Hindus say that they are the ones who are are disadvantaged in India and if equality is to be achieved in the religious field perhaps an equal number of mosques should be destroyed? Do Hindus have a valid point when they make such a statement?

Do you get the picture?

That doesn`t mean I take back anything I said. I meant every word of what I wrote. You can take it any way you want. Yours seems to be, oh, let us be nice to those poor Muslims. I just say, screw them if they don`t like the truth.

It is getting tiring to explain history and logic to pea-brained Indians. Hey, Pakis, get into the field and let us have some verbal jousting.

harimau #359
Now you have created serious doubts whether you have any acquaintance with India.

``Indians are taught the fairy tale that Muslims gave India all that is wonderful in architecture and that the sultans of Delhi were wonderfully nice people you would take home to introduce to your grandmother.``

Prove this statement? Indian children are not taught to hate anyone even the British, what they decide to read and think when they are adults is their business.

``Not having read them, Sadna, MaheshG, Shankar and a host of self-loathing Indians assume that anyone who says anything other than nice things about the sultans must be a Hindutva-vadi``

I donot loathe any Indians except you.

``I have news for you guys: several of these histories have been collected in The History of India as Told by Its Own Historians and the whole thing is cheap at $125.``

If you are talking of the Bharatiya Vidya Bhaavan series, you could have gone anytime in the last 10 years(that I know of) and picked it up at Motilal Banarsidaas in Bangalore in rupees for much less. As far as I know it was available even before that and I always saw it listed in their catalogues.

Whats the big deal? You seem to think it is a revelation that `Muslim` rulers were not perfect. So whats new? Everyone knows that, its been written about extensively, even movies have been made. However depraved and debauched rulers were in the past, how does it justify blooshed and violence or hate-filled rhetoric against innocent people today? How many times must you be asked this question?

Thats why I suspect you havenot been around India much. And you donot have much at stake there anymore(and are safe from the consequences of your actions) or you wouldnot throw around such extreme and unacceptable abuse so casually.

Sadhana

harimanu #359

You didn`t even respond to my statements about Mann Singh and hundreds of other Hindu chieftans faithfully serving their Mughal masters. And even given their sisters and daughters to the Mughals as concubines. Don`t start celebrating a premature victory, you fool.

Pankaj,

Neither Harimanu nor any other Indian bothered disputing my contention that high-caste Hindus rape and molest low-caste Hindus as a matter of habit and routine. I know this to be a fact from many North Indian friends and acquaintances.

Here`s a link to a Human Rights Watch`s report on the inhuman treatment of low-caste Hindus in India. The title of the report says it all - BROKEN PEOPLE: Caste violence against India`s untouchables:

http://www.igc.org/hrw/reports/1999/india/

Read this report and then: ``Garv say kaho hum Bharati hain!``

Ref sadna #: 355

[Not everyone has the sense of shame which you have in such great measure.]

One who is ashamed is apologetic. I ask that Hindus need not be apologetic. Even for the destruction of Babri Masjid.

On the other hand, you seem to find the genesis of Hindutva conspiracies when a tour guide gives you historical facts. Obviously, as I quote even more history, from Muslim historians no less, you find it hard to accept and accuse me of being a Hindutva fundo. Look at the Muslims who were thundering about Babri Masjid. They are all gone with their tails tucked between their legs.

With the exception of ali1 of course who seems to mistake his camel droppings for reasoned arguments.

So, let me ask the question once again:

Who needs to atone?

That question suddenly has become unanswerable.

Pakistanis can rest assured that the true history of India is not taught in Indian schools. You are taught that history began with the arrival of Muhammed bin Qasim in Sindh. Indians are taught the fairy tale that Muslims gave India all that is wonderful in architecture and that the sultans of Delhi were wonderfully nice people you would take home to introduce to your grandmother. The history of the conquest of India as written by Muslim historians of the 10th to 15th centuries were all translated and published in the late 1800s to the very early 1900s so the books are out of print and out of stock. Not having read them, Sadna, MaheshG, Shankar and a host of self-loathing Indians assume that anyone who says anything other than nice things about the sultans must be a Hindutva-vadi. I have news for you guys: several of these histories have been collected in The History of India as Told by Its Own Historians and the whole thing is cheap at $125. Order it from Amazon.com. Read some Islamic history, not the one written by Advani, Savarkar or Vajpayee. Get Farzana Versey to read the histories before she starts talking about a ``real azaadi Kashmir`` or the plight of Muslims in India. Then let these guys talk about Babri Masjid.

The difference between you and me is that you see a rabid dog and say ``Nice doggie, nice doggie`` as you slink away whereas I pick up a few stones and throw them at the female dog (if you know what I mean).

PS. Chowk is SO sensitive that I could not use the word used in England to mean a female dog. Guys, there IS a word in the English language that means female dog. It is even listed in the OED.

contd : similarities
...And lets not even mention common views on intermarrying, tauba tauba, what to speak of attention to genealogy and blood lines.

The differences: Brahmins loosened their grip on the reins a long time ago, have always been open(often at the forefront) to change in modern times, and have always valued knowledge and education and have a huge capacity for abstract ideas.

Sadhana

ali1 #356
Read articles in Pakistani newspapers and even the interactions on chowk and see if `Indians`, `Brahmins and baniyas` are made the scapegoats in the identical way for every evil in Pakistan. For some strange reason, baniyas and Brahmins are evil, khatris deserve only abuse, but Rajputs are quite OK, while `Shudras` (of India, the Pakistani ones have to fend for themselves) are only lacking assistance by Pakistan.

And your plentiful abuse for your own countrymen who donot share your faith is easily recognizable as an identical twin of the `much-maligned` `Brahminism` , down to pious attention to eating habits and the sharing of food.

Your and harimau`s sickness is of much the same variety, a lot of empty and black kitchen utensils making a lot of noise together.

Sadhana

Ahh.... didn`t realize that this thread was still alive and my friend harimau is still going strong. go harimau!

harimau,

You mention rape of the upper caste hindu women in each and every reply that you post. What is the deal, buddhay pervert? Does it help your erectile dysfunction?

This is how the conversation goes with harimau:

Q) why corruption eats a huge proportion of development funds

harimau) because upper caste hindu women were raped by muslims

Q) why are so many young men from India dying in the holds of ships anywhere in the world?

harimau) because Aurangzeb build this mosque in Mathura and raped Brahmin women on its doorsteps.

Q) Why did Mulayam Singh Yadav get elected on a plank which promised to punishments on cheating in exams?

harimau) because Babur raped 935 cheating upper caste hindu women in ayodhya and built his mosque there.

Q) You are not a sole proprietor of Hindustan just because you were born to a Brahim

harimau) but still, I am the sole descendant of the brahmin women raped by the donkeys carrying fodder for Akbar`s horses!

Q) Why people die of starvation in a country where foodgrains are in excess and vegetables enough to feed a whole country are rotting in godowns

Harimau) because Shah Jehan took 455 Brahmin women to the vegetable godown in Red Fort and raped them with baingan, tori, muli, gajar and several other vegetables.

take care sicko!

PS. Chowk Staff, please be even-handed and post this.

harimau #354
Not everyone has the sense of shame which you have in such great measure. There is no dearth of celebration in India of the `Hindu` part of our heritage, artistic or religious, I`m sorry your life is so deprived in that respect or maybe you are just blind.

And you call a dislike for linking that heritage with your type of hate-mongering and divisiveness as `dumb`, well you are not being convincing at all. I donot appreciate linking my visit to a holy place with anger at something which happened many hundred years ago and which has resulted in ruthless killings today. You want to defile or desecrate your own faith, thats your own choice. You want to defile and desecrate our common places of worship, well, better not depend on your cries of `coward` to get you there.

And btw, your so-called defence of `Hinduism` in contrast to your utter lack of concern for the current and future wellbeing of your fellow humans, including Hindus, is rather revealing. All this moral outrage seems to be a personal egotrip after all.

Sadhana

Ref sadna #: 347

[Well, my first trip to Mathura was during a relative`s wedding, and we also visited some excavations of an old fort-like structure at that time. The next time was on a guided tour and the guide kept mentioning how high was the original tower. This was before Hindutva sentiment was reaching its crest, I could see it in genesis, though.]

You are SO right. How dare the guide talk about what Mathura was like before the invaders? Doesn`t the whole world know that there may be no taller minar than the Qutb Minar, no grander dome than the Gol Gumbez, no art like Islamic calligraphy? How dare a Hindu even talk about his barbaric places of idolatry? Didn`t the benevolent Muslims bring in art and all that is lovely to the dusty plains of Hindustan? Is any more proof needed for this than the fact that the only grand monuments in all the places the Muslims ruled are mosques and burial places of the sultans of Delhi or various nawabs? You dumb Hindus, show me one place where I could find your people exhibiting any sense of the artistic.

harimau #352
Yes your posts are vitriolic, it doesnot matter what style you use. The reason is your insidious illogic.

You ask ``Can you explain why Aurangzeb built a mosque near the Krishna temple in Mathura?...Do you think Aurangzeb could have built mosques in places other than those venerated by Hindus?...would any person of the Islamic faith choose to answer the questions?``

Why should any person of the Islamic faith be asked to answer you? Aurangzeb has been dead and gone many hundred years, he was not alone in his barbarism, the problem in not current, noone is making a case for destroying each others religious places in India anymore, (except for some notable exceptions). Finally, what does any person of Islamic faith today have to do with what Aurangzeb did?

What we have to focus on is the problems of the present of which there are plenty. Does anyone ask you personally to answer why lower caste inhabitants of many North Indian villages still have to collect their water from other peoples` runoffs? Why were there riots in Agra not many years ago because `higher caste` goons objected to a `lower caste` bridegroom getting above his `station` by riding a horse? (and why did the lower caste riot when an eveteaser of their caste was slapped by the girl he was stalking?).

btw, do you ask with the same intensity and interest,
why corruption eats a huge proportion of development funds,
why ministers ask for bribes and donot get caught,
why schools are lying in disrepair and why teachers are moonlighting in other jobs?
Why the newpaper carries daily at least one story of some bride`s death?
Why did Mulayam Singh Yadav get elected on a plank which promised to punishments on cheating in exams?
Why there is no electricity for the guy in the corner shop to run his business without loss?
Why people die of starvation in a country where foodgrains are in excess and vegetables enough to feed a whole country are rotting in godowns,
why people have to live in inhuman shantytowns next door to open drains in cities full of rich people?
Also why are so many young men from India dying in the holds of ships anywhere in the world? You ought to check, those might just be `upper caste Hindus` of your variety.

But oh No, a person of Islamic faith has to present himself to answer your `urgent` questions put in the best possible style and wording. Whats the use of a million temples if only a few like you have `good` reason and good health to have faith enough to worship?

Sadhana

Repf sadna #: 344

[Are you denying your vitrolic posts began in response to someone mentioning atonement for demolition of the Babri Masjid and accompanying deaths of many hundred people?]

So, my posts are vitriolic? Let me re-write my questions in the style of Prof. Bilal Ahmad.

Here is my original:

What business has the Aurangzeb mosque right smack against the Krishna temple in Mathura? What business has the Gyan Vapi mosque right next to the Vishwanath temple in Benares? And what business did the Babri Masjid have in Ayodhya? In all of India, Babur couldn`t find any place to build his mosque except Ayodhya? And Aurangzeb couldn`t find a place for his mosques except by appropriating the property of the temples venerated as the birthplace of Krishna or as the center of the universe?

Here is the same in Prof. Ahmad`s style:

Can you explain why Aurangzeb built a mosque near the Krishna temple in Mathura? Why do you think the Gyan Vapi mosque was erected in close proximity to the Vishwanath temple in Benares? Why do you feel Babur chose to build his mosque in Ayodhya? Do you think Aurangzeb could have built mosques in places other than those venerated by Hindus?

Now that the wording meets your approval (I hope), would any person of the Islamic faith choose to answer the questions?

What was that again? When Hell freezes over? Oh, thank you.

Ref fairdinkum #: 346

[we visited several vidwa asharams and the women (dressed in white) were singing bhajans… we were told that that’s what they do all day long… with breaks in between of course…]

What? No training in the use of Kalashnikovs? What are these Hindutva-vadis up to? Whom do your mujahideen fight in their determination to reach heaven? Maybe these hated Hindus are invoking their yakshas and rakshasas. You will have to get your jinns to fight the kafirs` demons.

Wait a minute; you said women. Not bad. Good for some nookie between fighting. Just like your guys did in Baramula. Yeah, those were Christian nuns, People of the Book and all that, but aren`t honest Muslims allowed to take concubines from infidels? About killing those nuns: the battle for Srinagar was still on and so your guys couldn`t be bothered with war booty at that time.

[I wonder if I will ever be able to visit India again?]

Physically, yes. Could you face the shame you feel for what your religion did in India? You may be an exception but the Ummah would have no problem.

Ref JSandhu #: 343

R[``Hindu apologist``?? hmm. Let me make it clear to you, I am not a Hindu and don`t call me one again. Hindustani? yes! but not a Hindu. You are not a sole proprietor of Hindustan just because you were born to a Brahim. Stop dreaming!]

I had a fair idea about your religious orientation from your name but I couldn`t care what religion you belong to. If you don`t want to apologize on behalf of the Hindus, then you can apologize on behalf of the Sikhs, for all the errors committed by your ten Gurus in not accepting the True Faith, for defending your women and honor in the face of Islamic onslaught, or for just being born. Based on history, I expected a little more spirit among the Sikhs. Are you sure you aren`t a recent convert?

Jeez, we will next have the Parsis apologizing for leaving Iran instead of staying back and getting killed.

Jains, Buddhists, Animists, Jews: it is your tuen next to apologize to Muslims.

You should also give independence to every Muslim pocket in India so that the Faithful Believers can live with people of their own religion. As Jinnah has told us, Muslims cannot live together with Hindus. And as the 1947 partition riots in Punjab proved, they cannot live together with Sikhs. They cannot live together with Shias, Ismailis, Qadianis. And if you read the Pakistani papers, they don`t like women much either. Krashid has the right idea: better get a camel.

Ref krashid #: 345

[Probably in your response you did not care to read your post to which I was responding.]

I really don`t need to read your stuff carefully. Let me just summarize it for you: it is all the Hindu`s fault that you guys didn`t get all of Punjab and Bengal, Muslims cannot live together with Hindus, and Hindus are penis-worshippers. Pardon me for not wanting read your camel droppings word by word.

[Anyway I am making ``Hijrat`` on camel from Darul-Harb to Dar-ul-Islam because my stomach gets upset with Halaal Food and Halaal ``Rizq`` in Dar-ul-Harb.

If you don`t get it let me know, I will clarify.]

What you do with your camel is your business. I really don`t need to know the details. Women and children read the Chowk so please spare the Chowk readership.

[And stop whining regarding your posts getting through on Chowk. With the number of your responses to all and sundry, chowk might be overwhelmed.]

No, I don`t whine. If you notice, I taunt the Chowk editors to get my posts published. Even they have difficulty digesting the truth about Islam.

Harimau, I sent you the article to show you how similar your rantings and ravings were to that of Ithiah(?). His tirades are against upper castes and yours are against muslims.

fairdinkum #346
I suspect you have seen more of India than I have. Your khufiya agency had more funds than mine does :-).

Well, my first trip to Mathura was during a relative`s wedding, and we also visited some excavations of an old fort-like structure at that time. The next time was on a guided tour and the guide kept mentioning how high was the original tower. This was before Hindutva sentiment was reaching its crest, I could see it in genesis, though.

Actually reading history and visiting old historic and religious sites does engender a great feeling of loss. My first acquaintance with such a feeling (wholly unexpected and untutored), was in a cave temple near Mumbai where beautiful artistic and carvings can be seen to be defaced by those who wished to show their `superiority` by brute force. So much has been lain to waste which could have been, if nothing else, wonderful artistic heritage from our past.

But its criminally stupid(IMO) to cause further loss to ourselves by nurturing a meaningless sense of injury, meaningless because whats lost is lost and cannot come back. There are so many avenues in the modern world in which Indians can make(and have made)a mark for themselves, including Hindus, even opportunities to `leverage` past glories and a multifaceted heritage. In this context, IMO, `Hindu pride` can only be undermined by destructive violence, esp when if its not about resurgence of Hinduism at all, rather a few people wanting to be MPs and wheeler-dealers.

Sadhana

sadna #344

“I visited Mathura when I was a kid and then 10 years later.”

I visited Mathura in 1988. Our tour guide pointed to the blocks that were used in building the mosque and concluded that they are actually from one of the temples destroyed by Muslims… I didn’t think his remarks were a big deal at the time… I now realize what it meant. At any rate, it was a memorable visit… we visited several vidwa asharams and the women (dressed in white) were singing bhajans… we were told that that’s what they do all day long… with breaks in between of course… there were gow shalas… and so many temples… we even had parsaad from one the temples in the evening… I wonder if I will ever be able to visit India again?

Harimau #333

Probably in your response you did not care to read your post to which I was responding.

Anyway I am making ``Hijrat`` on camel from Darul-Harb to Dar-ul-Islam because my stomach gets upset with Halaal Food and Halaal ``Rizq`` in Dar-ul-Harb.

If you don`t get it let me know, I will clarify.

And stop whining regarding your posts getting through on Chowk. With the number of your responses to all and sundry, chowk might be overwhelmed.

harimau #340
Are you denying your vitrolic posts began in response to someone mentioning atonement for demolition of the Babri Masjid and accompanying deaths of many hundred people?

Many people have their own concept of what constitutes a moral or Hindu or whatever point of view on any event, including communal riots. But according to you, everyone who doesnot agree with you is apologising for being a Hindu? How do you manage to read that and what makes YOU the judge of everyone else? Do you really think your anger represents Hindu pride at its best? To me it represents Hindus at their most insecure, why else would anyone be so obsessed with the past and the misdeeds of others?

Contrary to what you think, facilities for religious practice and development of traditional art and culture had so far prospered without giving a political slant. If anything temples have become commercialized. I visited Mathura when I was a kid and then 10 years later. Neither time was the mosque of any interest or significance, and the first visit made a deep impression. But in the second visit, I found the shops came right upto the door and there were some even inside the brithplace! Now I bet they must be shouting political slogans inside. What sort of worship does that constitute, may I ask and what does it have to do with the past? It has to do with the choices of the present.

Its become obvious that any real and legitimate grouses which Hindutva-vadis may wish to bring to light are always obscured and undermined by their hate-filled rhetoric and threats of violence(which get acted upon at great cost). Its their stupidity if they choose to undermine themselves in that fashion. Finally, it will be India`s and Hinduism`s loss if all we do is trade meaningless insults.

Sadhana

``Hindu apologist``?? hmm. Let me make it clear to you, I am not a Hindu and don`t call me one again. Hindustani? yes! but not a Hindu. You are not a sole proprietor of Hindustan just because you were born to a Brahim. Stop dreaming!

Ref Brat #: 337

[Psst...if you ever *really * want people to start listening to what you say...take out the accusations]

Accusations? I am quoting history. As I keep saying, it IS very uncomfortable for Muslims to read the true history of the conquest of India. In fact, I submitted three excerpts this morning and Chowk editors have so far decided not to post the last.

Actually, this is the time to send in any crap as an article to Chowk; it will get accepted and published immediately because that will push this board to the archives.

I just ordered a copy of the 8-volume set, ``The History of India as Told by Its Own Historians``. This book is quoted extensively by John Keay and contains more information than John Keay could provide in his book that covers 5,000 years of history. I intend to frequent Chowk and ensure that history as written by Muslim historians and eyewitnesses are made available to those who want to learn the truth. I also want to ensure that all namby-pamby Hindus who are ashamed to be Hindus because they have been taught that THEY have been the bad boys of the subcontinent are for once forced to confront the truth as also the Islamic thugs.

[...and rethink what is it that you`re really trying to say? That India is an all-inclusive secular state...as long as you claim to be related to Hinduism in some obscure manner...and as long as you don`t challenge the fact that Brahmins are this and not that?]

You mean to tell me I can`t ridicule an idiot just because he is a Backward Class? I didn`t ridicule him for BEING a Backward Class, I ridiculed his arguments of anti-buffalo and pro-cow discrimination in India. Give me a break!

[WHO ARE BRAHMINS?]

The brahmins are those who kept Hinduism alive through the terrible oppression by Muslim invaders. You can take pride in that.

[WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A BRAHMIN IN THIS DAY AND AGE?]

It means that you will be discarded in today`s politically correct belief system (BS) in India that says Hindus are bad and brahmins are the baddest of the bad. You can accept society`s judgment and still strive for truth, justice and the Hindu way of life.

[What does it mean to be a HINDU?]

I don`t have a clue; I am just born a Hindu. And for that reason my forefathers have paid a terrible price the likes of which the world hasn`t seen since.

[does it depend on taking revenge from the Muslims for all that they have done to us first and foremost?]

Why don`t you ask the Muslims -- who seem to be whining that they didn`t get to rule India -- what might be the Islamic punishment if the situation were reversed?

[CLARIFY exactly what would make a lowly (but BRAHMIN) HINDU APOLOGIST like me to rise to your nationalistically admiring ranks??]

Stop apologizing. The Islamic thugs are the ones who have to apologize, atone, and make reparations.

But I don`t think you were serious in asking the last question. That is okay. Indians have been brainwashed in their history classes to accept the glories of Islamic rule. One has to go to the source such as Muslim historians who were contemporaneous with the events to know what truly happened.

Also, learning Java and becoming a coder tends to inhibit critical thinking.

Mr. Dionysis

Your comments are getting increasingly ridiculous day by day. Like the one below.

``. I stand by my claim that high-caste Hindus in North India rape low-caste Hindus as a matter of habit and routine. The point is, that Harimanu wants Hindus to take revenge for a few hundred years of alleged persecution. ``

Please cite some evidence that ``high-caste Hindus in North India rape low-caste Hindus as a matter of habit and routine``. Note the words ``habit`` and ``routine``.

You say:

``Just wait till the Dalits, with Pakistani help and assistance, take revenge for 5000 years of real (not imaginary) and savage persecution at the hands of high-caste.``

So Pakistan has become so powerful now. BTW, come to India, conduct a random suevey in any part of Northern India, and if you find even 10% of Dalits who say they will accept Paki help to get freedom from the ``oppression`` of high caste, I will eat humble pie and loose the bet. Wanna take up the challenge. Dalits have got more rights and privileges with all the reservation in Govt jobs, lower cut off for any competitive exams, than any high castes. Did you Pakis reserve even 10% of jobs for disadvantaged groups like Ahmadiyas/Shias or for backward classes in your society?( Note I am not intentionally mentioning Hindus/Christians).

PS You have closed you mind to reality and reason. BTW, have you ever come to India and saw the actual situation in North India. I dont even expect you to do some info check before you go out with your idiotic comments. In the words of RSaxena, `` go and have your wet dreams``. You have been brought up on illusions and false information.

Ref sadna #: 338

[Over many posts, you have made arguments in favor of demolition of some religious places]

Have I, really? Why don`t you read my posts again, this time without any preconceived notions about me being an ISI agent or a Hindutva fanatic.

[you cite inequalities in Islamic belief while speaking of `higher caste vs Dalits`, you speak of `much-maligned` communities, while maligning other communities.]

Excuse me, this pathetic excuse of a human being was essentially saying, ``Love me, love my buffalo``. The guy was talking about pro-cow and anti-buffalo bias in India on the basis that cows are white and buffaloes are black. You want me to take this clown seriously? It was obvious he was not being satirical but quite serious. No, he doesn`t HAVE to worship the cow, he can bloody well worship his buffalo. I have no problem with that. What does he want next -- affirmative action for buffaloes in preferential admission to colleges? HE got into college and has a teaching job; that proves there IS affirmative action for buffaloes in India. Sheesh, you guys have are so namby-pamby you just jump when somebody comes whining. I keep saying: stop apologizing for being a Hindu!

[Whats the point, finally?]

Do I have to spell out EVERYTHING?

#331

No matter how bad the word Budhoo is in your mind it is no way as despicable as the word Mannu amongst 75% of the Indian population.

Bhagat Kabir said`` jau tu brahmin, brahmani jayea. tau Kaahe aan baaT nahi ayea?``

Translation: Hey brahmin you are born to a brahmani(woman),if you are so different and high than us, why did not you come some other way?

and Shudras love Hinduism?

hahahaha that got to be the joke of the millenium.

harimau #334
Over many posts, you have made arguments in favor of demolition of some religious places while also citing destruction of Somnath as barbarism, you cite inequalities in Islamic belief while speaking of `higher caste vs Dalits`, you speak of `much-maligned` communities, while maligning other communities.

Must you adopt the same characteristics which you loathe among those you loathe? Why be defined by those you hate? Whats the point, finally?

Sadhana

Harimau

Psst...if you ever *really * want people to start listening to what you say...take out the accusations...and rethink what is it that you`re really trying to say? That India is an all-inclusive secular state...as long as you claim to be related to Hinduism in some obscure manner...and as long as you don`t challenge the fact that Brahmins are this and not that? And those good-for-nothing scheduled castes are getting free seats in so many places...?? Try looking into the situation of Native Indians in US and more specifically Canada and compare the priviliges given to them here with the ``priviliges`` of Scheduled-Caste people in India. (ALSO compare the subjugation and treatment both received at the hands of stronger groups).

I will ask again, and if you get time from your busy life, please answer...I`m still waiting.

WHO ARE BRAHMINS? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A BRAHMIN IN THIS DAY AND AGE?

What does it mean to be a HINDU? (does it depend on taking revenge from the Muslims for all that they have done to us first and foremost?) CLARIFY exactly what would make a lowly (but BRAHMIN) HINDU APOLOGIST like me to rise to your nationalistically admiring ranks??

Please elaborate, this young apprentice has to decide between the dark side of the force and the good side...MAY The Force BE with you.

Brat

Harimau

Psst...if you ever *really * want people to start listening to what you say...take out the accusations...and rethink what is it that you`re really trying to say? That India is an all-inclusive secular state...as long as you claim to be related to Hinduism in some obscure manner...and as long as you don`t challenge the fact that Brahmins are this and not that? And those good-for-nothing scheduled castes are getting free seats in so many places...?? Try looking into the situation of Native Indians in US and more specifically Canada and compare the priviliges given to them here with the ``priviliges`` of Scheduled-Caste people in India. (ALSO compare the subjugation and treatment both received at the hands of stronger groups).

I will ask again, and if you get time from your busy life, please answer...I`m still waiting.

WHO ARE BRAHMINS? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A BRAHMIN IN THIS DAY AND AGE?

What does it mean to be a HINDU? (does it depend on taking revenge from the Muslims for all that they have done to us first and foremost?) CLARIFY exactly what would make a lowly (but BRAHMIN) HINDU APOLOGIST like me to rise to your nationalistically admiring ranks??

Please elaborate, this young apprentice has to decide between the dark side of the force and the good side...MAY The Force BE with you.

Brat

FINALLY, we`re coming close to the goal of everyone hating everyone who is not of the same religion, nationality, caste, sub-caste (sub-sub caste too eventually i hope), language?, accent, ancestors...I`m sure I`m missing all the important factors of distinction!!

What is it really going to take? An attack from Mars to change the focus?

And we`re all educated people here, with lots of time and hatred to burn.
Brat

FINALLY, we`re coming close to the goal of everyone hating everyone who is not of the same religion, nationality, caste, sub-caste (sub-sub caste too eventually i hope), language?, accent, ancestors...I`m sure I`m missing all the important factors of distinction!!

What is it really going to take? An attack from Mars to change the focus?

And we`re all educated people here, with lots of time and hatred to burn.
Brat

Harpreet #330

My comments are in response to Harimanu and within the context of my post #290. I stand by my claim that high-caste Hindus in North India rape low-caste Hindus as a matter of habit and routine. The point is, that Harimanu wants Hindus to take revenge for a few hundred years of alleged persecution. Just wait till the Dalits, with Pakistani help and assistance, take revenge for 5000 years of real (not imaginary) and savage persecution at the hands of high-caste Hindus.

I also stand by my remarks about high-caste Hindus collaborating with the foreign invaders.

Ref MaheshG #: 332

[Harimau, something for you to read]

Yeah, I read his crap. What is his point? If he wants, he can worship the buffalo, demand that the name Mysore be changed (Mysore, derived from Mahishasura, the demon who took the form of a buffalo and was destroyed by Durga). He can move to Buffalo, NY, for all I care. I don`t understand the inanities he has spouted and I can`t understand why you would want me to read his drivel.

Hinduism is all-encompassing and simply has accepted all inhabitants of India, unless they are explicitly Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains, Zorastrians or Jews, to be within its fold. There is no conversion ceremony where you lose sensitive body parts as part of the contract with the Almighty. (jeez, one would think that a notched ear might offer quicker recognition of membership in a religion, but I suppose they do things differently in Arabia: I will show you mine if you will show me yours kind of thing). He doesn`t have to call himself a Hindu; he can claim any religion for himself. He can even start his own religion, declare himself the last prophet (Khatm-e-Nabuwat I believe is the technical term for this), declare everybody else to be heretical, kill cows and eat beef, claim direct descent from the Africans since they are black-skinned, etc., etc. He can also turn in his Ph.D. and instead get a W. D. (witch doctor) degree from whatever university he wants. You are also equally welcome to disassociate yourself from Hinduism. After all, there is no death punishment for apostasy in Hinduism. But after that, I know this idiot will be showing up claiming to be disadvantaged and would want to feed at the trough where the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes are feeding today. Just like Muslims and Christians have demanded that they be treated as backward classes.

For all I care, if he loves buffaloes over cows, he can even have sex with his buffalo.

One would think that these people would use their education to do something for themselves, their communities and their country. No, the much-maligned brahmins have to be the ones who design your Bombs for you while these idiots run around claiming a conspiracy to rob them of what they didn`t have in the first place.

[Maybe you and he should get together.]

He seems more like your type; you know, the kind that doesn`t want to think for himself but look for excuses for your own inadequacies.

Ref krashid #: 328

[For that matter, I am buying a camel and selling my Totota.]

Having a Toyota Corolla is SO in character for a Pakistani.

You are buying a camel for TRANSPORTATION?

That is SO out of character.

(Yes, I do know that you guys own camels.)

Aside to tahmed321: Smile, if Chowk Editors let this through.

Harimau, something for you to read

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/17inter.htm

If tomorrow, Hinduism gets established in Europe, will anybody stop it? So

when Christianity and Islam are here, why are the Brahmins objecting?

Because they fear that the Sudras, Chandalas and Adivasis may get

empowered with the new English education that the Christians are giving to our

people. That is why they are attacking Christians these days.

Brahmins are basically Aryans who came from outside. They brought the cow

along with them. They were eating the flesh of cows. But they began

worshipping the cow as a sacred animal after Buddha took up a campaign

saying stop killing animals. Then they said the cow is a sacred animal and it is

in the Constitution.

Look at the reality. Eighty per cent of the milk in India comes from buffaloes.

Buffaloes are the native Indian animals, but they do not have any rights to be

protected in the Constitution. Because the buffalo is a Dravidian animal,

whereas the cow is an Aryan animal.

The buffalo is a black animal and we are black people. We low caste people

represent the rights of the buffaloes. Cows cannot be sacred and buffaloes

cannot be devilish and yet India can become modern. It is not just possible. All

Brahmins in India have been consumers in the history of India. They were never

the producers. So, this has to be debated.

Harimau, your clone in the lower castes. Seems like he has declared the upper castes as foreigners. He will soon declare that all upper castes should get out of India. He has already declared Hinduism as a barbaric cult. Maybe you and he should get together.

Ref JSandhu #: 323

[Mannu]

Buddhu.

Chowk editors. I noticed that in my response to JSandhu you posted, you left out the word `Buddhu`. If you are going to edit my posts for personal attacks, logic says you should edit JSandhu`s post and should have removed the word `Mannu`. But, I should know better than to argue with Islamic logic.

Dionysus#315,

``Man, this is so much fun! Hating Indians is the greatest thing about being a Pakistani...lol!``

At least you are honest.

Dont you think it is funny to see Harimau and his boyfriends from across the border like Ali1 and Dionysus swapping stories of miscegenation and rape? Man these guys love each other! Its like they get erections from degrading each other..... the frenzy in their posts, like some kind of masturbatorial fantasies they have... I mean look at their gleeful references to rape and paedophilia and stuff....

guys, wash your hands when you are finished btw....

wankers......

Harimau #303

So why were you crying so loudly in your post about people being prevented from performing their holy festival in land of pure.

Let me know where do you live.

I can guide you.

Harimau #307

For that matter, I am buying a camel and selling my Totota.

Does it interest you.

Ascention of Prophet PBUH after his death. Did you take more Ganja or ``Tari`` today.

I don`t expect you to use foreign made heroine and LSD.

Ref JSandhu #: 323

Don`t make assumptions about my personal experiences.

But then you have been consistent in your stupidity so I cannot accuse you of being a Hindu-apologist.

Let me quote from history. India: A History by John Keay, noted historian and author.

Somnath`s fort looked more formidable. It seems, though, to have been defended by not by troops but by its enormous complement of of brahmans and hordes of devotees...... Such was the resultant carnage that even the Muslim chroniclers betray a hint of unease. What one of them calls `the dreadful slaughter` outside the temple was yet worse......

Additionally twenty million dirhams-worth of gold, silver and gems was looted from the temple. But what rankled even more than the loot and the appalling death-toll was the satisfaction which Mahmud took in destroying the great gilded lingam. After stripping it of its gold, he personally laid into it with his `sword` - which must have been more like a sledgehammer. The bits were then sent back to Ghazni and incorporated into the steps of its new Jami Masjid (Friday Mosque), there to be humiliatingly trampled and perpetually defiled by the feet of the Muslim faithful.

What is that crap about Allah enjoining Muslims to protect the places of worship of the unbelievers? I want the resident Islamic scholars to quote chapter and verse from the Qur`an and the hadiths about it.

(pp.209-210)

Dionysus, say with pride, `I am the descendant of vandals`. Say with pride, `I am a descendant of murderers, looters and rapists`. Say with pride, `I am a Pakistani, a product of the fevered brain of that tuberculous Jinnah`. Say with pride, `I am a product of the rape of innocent women by Islamic invaders`. Say with pride, `I grow and sell opium to the world`. Say with pride, `I am a Sunni and I kill Shias and Qadianis`.

Because that IS your heritage.

Let me quote from history. India: A History by John Keay, noted historian and author.

In 1018, it was the turn of Mathura, a well-endowed place of pilgrimage beside the Jamuna which was sacred to Lord Krishna as well as the source of so much Gupta sculpture. Here the main temple, a colossally intricate stone structure, impressed even Mahmud. Already busy endowing Ghazni with stately mosques and madrassehs, he reckoned to build the like of the Mathura temple would take at least 200 years and cost a hundred million dirhams. According to al-Utbi, the building was simply ``beyond description`` - though not desecration. After tonnes of gold, silver and precious stones had been prised from its images, it shared the fate of the city`s countless other shrines, being `burned with naphtha and fire and levelled with the ground`. (p.208)

Dionysus, say with pride, `I am the descendant of vandals`. Say with pride, `I am a descendant of murderers, looters and rapists`. Say with pride, `I am a Pakistani, a product of the fevered brain of that tuberculous Jinnah`. Say with pride, `I am a product of the rape of innocent women by Islamic invaders`. Say with pride, `I grow and sell opium to the world`. Say with pride, `I am a Sunni and I kill Shias and Qadianis`.

Because that IS your heritage.

REF # 317

[``harimau #308 That post was funny. And you were funny without meaning be to so - obviously a natural. Honest. Go, git `em, boy``]

I too think that at last we have a real he-man who has emerged from India, the land of eunuchs. Some one who wants to avenge the historical injustices, brutalities and rapes; thus wiping off the accumalated mongol/turk/british semen from the face of mother india.

Go Harimau! teach the Staines of this world a lesson.

Mannu: Shouting ``rape`` consistently in every single post points to a bigger problem than hindu-muslim hatred. If you cann`t foget what you saw as a child, go to the doctor. Posting like a mad man is not a proper treatment for your bemari.

RE: Prof Bilal # 313

[``My reply: I am glad to know that you are not what we sense from your writings.``]

But maybe I am. Maybe I am worse than what you sense from my writings?

[``But, do you ever realize what a person`s irresponsible rhetoric could do to others? ``]

That is a problem ``others`` need to sort, I think.

Ref #: 310

[The ever-so-reasonable Bangladeshi (I suppose you carry an Indian passport now) thrown out of her country by Islamic thugs and who is now preaching moderation.]

Hey, ali1, who complains that I am bitching about 15th century invaders. Let me give you some history here. The war in Bangladesh happened in 1971. That, in case your math is weak, happens to be in the 20th century. Just 30 years back.

The Islamic thugs I referred to happened to be the Pakistani Army.

In a recent Chowk poll, 45% of respondents felt that Pakistan has no reason to apologize for the rapes and murders of the 1971 occupation of Bangladesh.

And the same people post regularly asking India to try ITS army personnel for getting a little rest and recreation in Kashmir.

Islamic medicine, guys. Except, it is administered by a Hindu vaidya. Has to taste bitter. So ask the local hakeem for good-tasting 7th-century Arab camel-crap. That ought to go well with a kilo of Afghan hash.

PS to Chowk editors: This happens to have stayed on in my screen. So let us see if you can post it this time.

What kind of sick people think its entertaining and a matter of pride to heap abuse on others without coherence or connection?

And I thought `ali1` said he `had a life` and was horrified about `inhuman treatment of minorities in India` esp on chowk. And `dionysus` kept moaning about `unnecessary Partition on basis of religion`. Thats what you wanted more Hindus for, your own countrymen donot suffice for your two-faced foulmouthedness?

Sadhana

harimau #308 That post was funny. And you were funny without meaning be to so - obviously a natural. Honest. Go, git `em, boy.

Ref ahmadb #: 313

[In response to Ali1 (Reply # 302)

Dear Ali:

Your statement: ``Once in a while, people like Harimau come along and provide us (me) with some high quality entertainment..... I assure you I do not believe in most of what I write in these exchanges but hey, this is the internet!``

My reply: I am glad to know that you are not what we sense from your writings. But, do you ever realize what a person`s irresponsible rhetoric could do to others? There is a whole field of communication science full of insights, if you care to look into.

Please do not unnecessarily create monsters if and when there are none.]

Don`t tell me an intelligent man like you has fallen for this joker, ali1. Ali1 has been spouting rubbish all over Chowk for a long time. When I show him incontrovertible facts, he backs out and says that he didn`t mean it at all. Just like Jinnah REALLY didn`t mean it when he said he wanted Pakistan. Oh, no; the devious Hindus made him take his Pakistan, move to Karachi and start expelling Hindus from Punjab, Sindh and NWFP.

[P.S. Please think, why Harimau did not reply my post (while he had plenty of time to write what he unfortunately did)?]

I replied to you all right. It is just that Chowk editors can handle only so many hot potatoes at one time and I necessarily have to send in my posts in the evening or early morning. The only thing unfortunate about my posts is that it raises questions that, if analyzed dispassionately, provide answers that are extremely uncomfortable to Muslims as well as Hindu-apologists. But that is how the cookie crumbles in real life.

Please ask Chowk editors to dig up my response to you. I don`t save my posts and it is difficult to reconstruct them after waiting for two days to see if Chowk editors can handle the truth.

Ref xxabbu #: 301

[I kept wodering about this guy Harimau, trying to figure where he`s comin from. I finally got it - the only explanation short of him being an ISI infiltrator.

He`s sadly lapsed into clinical insanity.

Off his trolley, lost his marbles.]

An amateur shrink, no less! or, are you a professional like Shankar? Remore diagnosis, too! What are the fees, doctor? Do you accept insurance?

[Thats OK, folks, these things happen. What we need to worry about is, how many more are roaming out there in mera bharat mahaan? Is this an isolated case, or do we have a full-blown epidemic?]

The epidemic is a disease called Islam. This virus infected India 1000 years ago. Strangely enough, this seems to be able to survive even when no food is available. The proof of this is that it pulversized thousands of Hindu temples into sand. It has also infected the brains of namby-pamby Hindus who are probably apologetic that they didn`t have enough womenfolk to offer to Islamic rapists. However, a major portion of this disease was surgically removed from India in 1947. With no host to attack, the virus attacked its own body. But for the help of those hated Hindus, East Pakistan would today be Khabristan. The virus is alive and well and running rampant in Pakistan, Afghanistan and various other -stans.

[I think I read this guy has CHILDREN (!) Its the most heart-breaking thing I`ve learnt all of today. Are people like him for real??]

Of couse, it is NOT heart-breaking for you when the Islamic thugs cleansed East Timor. They were doing Allah`s bidding.

PS to Chowkwallahs: I will understand if you refuse to post this. It is difficult to read something to which you have NO ANSWER.

Harimau#308,

The inadequacy of my argument? I have got out of the ring?

ha ha ha....

thanks for giving me a good laugh.

I can return in the future and skew you like the skinny little chicken you are though, if you want.

but right now I am busy.

so respond to my points about what you`re gonna do when the descendants of the people YOUR ancestors oppressed, or imagined they oppressed (as most of your history is 5h1t )come round looking for their pound of flesh.....

hopefully they will spare your family but skin you alive after you`ve toasted the entire Muslim population of India.

just kidding

.Chicken.

harmau #305

You`re a typical high-caste Hindu full of sh *t and possesing a masterful ability to invent fairy tales glorifying his miserable ancestors.

The number of women who died at Chittor was not more than a couple of dozen (if that). And what about Raja Mann Singh and friends? For hundreds of years their women didn`t complain about `Muslim contamination` when they were blowing Akbar and family. People like `Mirza` Jai Singh eventually acknowledged their Mughal ancestory by even adopting Muslim titles.

Harimau, say with pride, ``I am an Indian, the product of the febrile hallucinations of that slimy incestous paedophile, Gandhi.`` Say with pride, ``I am the product of the rape of innocent Dravidian women by Aryan marauders.`` Say with pride, ``I am a high-caste Hindu and I rape low-caste Hindu women and even, when I`m in the mood, low-caste Hindu men``.

Or for short, ``Garv say kaho hum Bharati hain!``

Man, this is so much fun! Hating Indians is the greatest thing about being a Pakistani...lol!

Ref #: 310

[The ever-so-reasonable Bangladeshi (I suppose you carry an Indian passport now) thrown out of her country by Islamic thugs and who is now preaching moderation.]

Hey, ali1, who complains that I am bitching about 15th century invaders. Let me give you some history here. The war in Bangladesh happened in 1971. That, in case your math is weak, happens to be in the 20th century. Just 30 years back.

The Islamic thugs I referred to happened to be the Pakistani Army.

In a recent Chowk poll, 45% of respondents felt that Pakistan has no reason to apologize for the rapes and murders of the 1971 occupation of Bangladesh.

And the same people post regularly asking India to try ITS army personnel for getting a little rest and recreation in Kashmir.

Islamic medicine, guys. Except, it is administered by a Hindu vaidya. Has to taste bitter. So ask the local hakeem for good-tasting 7th-century Arab camel-crap. That ought to go well with a kilo of Afghan hash.

In response to Ali1 (Reply # 302)
Dear Ali:

Your statement: ``Once in a while, people like Harimau come along and provide us (me) with some high quality entertainment..... I assure you I do not believe in most of what I write in these exchanges but hey, this is the internet!``

My reply: I am glad to know that you are not what we sense from your writings. But, do you ever realize what a person`s irresponsible rhetoric could do to others? There is a whole field of communication science full of insights, if you care to look into.

Please do not unnecessarily create monsters if and when there are none.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. Please think, why Harimau did not reply my post (while he had plenty of time to write what he unfortunately did)?

ali1,

I knew it... Thank you very much for your response...ok, tell us more about that nooha of Jigar Muradabadi... do you know the history behind it? Dig it up for me mate...

I have heard it in karachi, but i don`t know if jigar muradabadi wrote it or not and i don`t think i got the wording right either... do you have the whole nooha in urdu? if so please write it on this forum... your help will be greatly appreciated...

Thanks.

krashid #297 ``We lost those wars intentionally.

Including 1948, 1965 and 1999.``

Yup. The aim of the general`s was never to take over India, just to take over Pakistan. (Actually, I think we did alright in 1965 - or maybe I am biased since some dear relatives led a few good charges including in Chhamb...)

Ref ali1 #: 292

[Dear pseudo-secularists:

Harimau represents the angry, frustrated and ready-to-take-his-fate-in-his-own-hands Hindu majority of India. Enough with your shrill shenanigans. He is the real face of Hindu India. Stop trying to shout him down.]

It is because of the pseudo-secularism that Muslim women are able to venture out of their houses in India. Otherwise they would be getting raped and the rapists would demand to have four Muslim male witnesses to the act of penetration.

You need to get on your hands and knees and thank Allah for small mercies. For your neighbors treat your women better than you do. Thank Allah that Islamic rapists are now confined to Pakistan, Afghanistam, and all other -stans only.

Ref cheraym #: 294

[A heart felt thank to Fairdinkum for #288. See the offenders like Ali1 or Harimu do not accomplish anything by hurling garbage to people, it only shows the decadence of their thinking pattern.]

Hey, everybody! Looksee who is heeere! The ever-so-reasonable Bangladeshi (I suppose you carry an Indian passport now) thrown out of her country by Islamic thugs and who is now preaching moderation.

Allright, lady, tell me one thing I wrote that is garbage.

People don`t like historical facts. They don`t like logical deductions. Why? Because it means that the rapists and murderers cannot get away with their crimes for ever? As they say, if you do the crime, be prepared to do the time.

Re: krashid

Have you fought any wars with your tail?

Ref tahmed321 #: 285

[Harpreet #281 ``Ali1 and Harimau are two sides of the same coin.... look how serenely and with such empathy Ali1 talks to him.....``

I am enjoying this duel already. Maybe you and I can start selling tickets to this show.]

Yes. I noticed that you, realizing the inadequacies of your arguments, got out of the ring.

Ref krashid #: 296

[If you find time from your useless posts, you will find that Aisha`s hand was given by her father none other than Abu-Bakr willingly. And there is no evidence so far that there was any objection because of her age. It was a normal cultural thing.]

So? Follow the Prophet and give your 9-year-old daughter in marriage to some 56-year-old man. Aren`t you supposed to follow the Prophet`s exemplary life?

[As you are ranting regarding invasions by Muslims and its revenge. Why don`t you take revenge against your Hindu ancesstors who sided with Muslims against their own brothers.(And we start taking revenge on Muslims who killed their Muslim brothers along with Hindu)]

Because my Hindu ancestors did not kill multitudes of people for believing in a different religion.

[Do you believe that earth is supported on the horns of cow]

Do you believe that Prophet Muhammed bodily ascended to heaven? In recorded history, has anyone died without leaving a body behind?

Ref ali1 #: 291

[The short answer to your question is sharaab, shabaab and kebaab, all 3 of which are in short supply in India (and Pakistan). Result is that you end up with people like Harimau who worry more about what happened in the 15th century than what can happen to their kids next year.]

Ha ha ha! That is a good one. Since the Land of the Pure is overflowing with milk, honey, houris, ghilmans, roti, kapda, makan and all those good things essential for good living, you have been worrying about Kashmir for the last 53 years. Not to think of Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Palestine.

You think people have the attention span of a 6-month-old to fall for your all-too-sudden reasonableness?

Ref Dionysus #: 290

[``My ancestors had a code of conduct ruled by the caste system. Rape by any person meant automatic exclusion from the caste. So I have no doubts regarding MY ancestry.``

What a load of bullsh *t! You`re either a liar or high on Hindutva hashish like Vijay Amrit. In India high-caste men rape low-caste women as a matter of routine. It`s an everyday occurance. The low-caste men just accept as a fact of life that their wives and daughters will regularily be sexually molested by high-caste men.]

Any rape of lower-castes is done by a caste just one level above that. Which means that it is a fight between the Shudras and the Untouchables. In case you don`t remember history, when Chitorgarh was taken, all the women (estimated to be more than 10,000) perished rather than be taken as sex slaves by Islamic thugs.

Perhaps it is their way of saying that contamination by a Muslim is worse than contamination by a Hindu. So that tells you exactly where you stand in the hierarchy in the animal kingdom.

Dionysus, wasn`t that the old man who went searching for the truth? You on the other hand seem to be searching for straws to support your pathetic theories.

Dionysus, Say with pride, `I am a Pakistani, a product of the fevered brain of that tuberculous Jinnah`. Say with pride, `I am a product of the rape of innocent women by Islamic invaders`. Say with pride, `I grow and sell opium to the world`. Say with pride, `I am a Sunni and I kill Shias and Qadianis`. Those are the truths that you need to contemplate.

Ref MaheshG #: 279

[I am not talking about affirmative action (it is required and is NOT an injustice against upper castes).]

Then why is that affirmative action in India is in FAVOR of Muslims as opposed to against them? If upper-caste Hindus were the oppressors of the dalits, weren`t the Muslims the oppressors of all Hindus? When upper-caste Hindus pay the price, why can`t you ask why, by the same token, Muslims shouldn`t pay the price too? Or is that too difficult an extension of logic for your brain to comprehend?

[I am talking about the dalits destroying temples because they were not allowed to enter them for a millenium.]

Ask the dalits. They have far more respect for their Hindu gods than you seem to do and wouldn`t hear of destroying any temples.

PS to Chowkwallahs: Do I have to dare you each time to post my response? You lost this as well as the response to Bilal Ahmad and a few others.

Ref krashid #: 243

About the killing of the Hindu pilgrims by Islamic thugs, you had this to say:

---------Begin Quote-------

If you try to capture the land of a people by force, do you like them to give you floral wreath for this.

---------End Quote---------

Let us get one thing straight.

Just like the invaders captured India, we the Indians have captured Kashmir. A Hindu king ruled over the land and we now possess it. If you have any complaints about the treatment of Muslim Kashmiris, just remember that they are being treated far more leniently thany any captive population has any right to expect. Didn`t your own prophet kill off an entire tribe for the revolt of a few? (Hey, Islamic scholars, come to my help and quote the hadith. I have no wish to go search the web.)

As for the Kashmiri Muslim women compalining of rape: can they produce four Muslim male witnesses to the act of penetration? See, we have Islamic jurisprudence on our side.

Do you mean to tell me Islamic medicine tastes bad when administered by a Hindu vaidya but tastes great at the hands of an Islamic hakim?

fairdinkum:

Thanks for your input.

I come to chowk.com for entertainment although at one point I thought of it as an excellent medium for exchange of ideas specially with folks from across the border.

Once in a while, people like Harimau come along and provide us (me) with some high quality entertainment..... I assure you I do not believe in most of what I write in these exchanges but hey, this is the internet!

I think ``Shah-e-Medina jo Hind aye hote`` is by Jigar Muradabadi though I am not sure.

Best Regards

I kept wodering about this guy Harimau, trying to figure where he`s comin from. I finally got it - the only explanation short of him being an ISI infiltrator.

He`s sadly lapsed into clinical insanity.

Off his trolley, lost his marbles.

Thats OK, folks, these things happen. What we need to worry about is, how many more are roaming out there in mera bharat mahaan? Is this an isolated case, or do we have a full-blown epidemic?

I think I read this guy has CHILDREN (!) Its the most heart-breaking thing I`ve learnt all of today. Are people like him for real??

ALI 278

“It must be devastating to ask yourself: Why couldn`t you stop a few thousand Afghans or Brits from ruling over your sorry arses? Are you eunuchs? Is it bad genes or a protein deficient diet?”

“Nothing can be worse than not being sure about your ancestry. What did the barbaric Afghans do to your grandmother? Where did your brown eyes come from, was it a turk or a mongol? green eyes? the rapist must be a Brit or a Portuguese then!”

Well said, Mr. Ali. You are deevastatingly right. Since ignorance is generally bliss, you have every right to enjoy it. But after enjoying this bliss, do look around and do some demographic, genetic analysis. All those weaklings who could not sustain and survive under the pressure of these invaders YOU ARE SO PROUD OF, converted long long ago. Those who have survived with their tolerant, all encompassing philosophy are there because they had the stamina to bear and sustain.

Have a long life!

fairdinkum#288,

wow! what an amazing and interesting post......

i never knew anything about what you said, it was utterly dis-arming

whatever else people say, I learn something from Chowk every day.

thanks fairdinkum

regards

Harpreet

RSaxena #286

Sorry man.

We lost those wars intentionally.

Including 1948, 1965 and 1999.

Be happy. You are no more enunch.

See how we make ass-ho--- out of enunch.

Harimau # on various posts:

May be future historians will laugh at us that those people would marry in their late twenties and sometimes thirties and forties.

You cannot take out a society out of its circumstances.

If you find time from your useless posts, you will find that Aisha`s hand was given by her father none other than Abu-Bakr willingly. And there is no evidence so far that there was any objection because of her age. It was a normal cultural thing.

As you are ranting regarding invasions by Muslims and its revenge. Why don`t you take revenge against your Hindu ancesstors who sided with Muslims against their own brothers.(And we start taking revenge on Muslims who killed their Muslim brothers along with Hindu)

If your philosophy teaches you to belief that those fights were Hindu Muslim fight then your Hindu bretheren are more to blame because they were involved in killing their own brother.

Do you believe that earth is supported on the horns of cow or you are still living in 10,000 years B.C.

Harimau # on various posts:

May be future historians will laugh at us that those people would marry in their late twenties and sometimes thirties and forties.

You cannot take out a society out of its circumstances.

If you find time from your useless posts, you will find that Aisha`s hand was given by her father none other than Abu-Bakr willingly. And there is no evidence so far that there was any objection because of her age. It was a normal cultural thing.

As you are ranting regarding invasions by Muslims and its revenge. Why don`t you take revenge against your Hindu ancesstors who sided with Muslims against their own brothers.(And we start taking revenge on Muslims who killed their Muslim brothers along with Hindu)

If your philosophy teaches you to belief that those fights were Hindu Muslim fight then your Hindu bretheren are more to blame because they were involved in killing their own brother.

Do you believe that earth is supported on the horns of cow or you are still living in 10,000 years B.C.

A heart felt thank to Fairdinkum for #288. See the offenders like Ali1 or Harimu do not accomplish anything by hurling garbage to people, it only shows the decadence of their thinking pattern.

Thanks once again.

Regards

cheraym

Ref Jsandhu #: 258

[India might be feeling big and strong after the bombs but what Thakre and Harimanu need is Viagra to have the same feeling.]

Is that why you prefer your women to be raped by Islamic thugs?

[Good luck Mannu, and stop writing Hari in front of your name.]

That `hari` is NOT a prefix referring to your god Vishnu whom you don`t respect sufficiently. Harimau is a word from a language outside India. So, don`t jump to conclusions from little knowledge; you will end up with mud on your face as you fall flat on it.

[Mannu describes your personality pretty well]

How abou `buddhu`? Does that describe your intellect?

PS to Chowkwallahs: Last time you deleted this response. I dare you to post it.

Harimau:

I salute your spirit and your unwillingness to bow down before these pseudo-secularists.

Dear pseudo-secularists:

Harimau represents the angry, frustrated and ready-to-take-his-fate-in-his-own-hands Hindu majority of India. Enough with your shrill shenanigans. He is the real face of Hindu India. Stop trying to shout him down.

Rsaxena:

The short answer to your question is sharaab, shabaab and kebaab, all 3 of which are in short supply in India (and Pakistan). Result is that you end up with people like Harimau who worry more about what happened in the 15th century than what can happen to their kids next year.

harimau #278

``My ancestors had a code of conduct ruled by the caste system. Rape by any person meant automatic exclusion from the caste. So I have no doubts regarding MY ancestry.``

What a load of bullsh *t! You`re either a liar or high on Hindutva hashish like Vijay Amrit. In India high-caste men rape low-caste women as a matter of routine. It`s an everyday occurance. The low-caste men just accept as a fact of life that their wives and daughters will regularily be sexually molested by high-caste men.

But don`t worry, the Shudras will take your advice and seek revenge for 5000 years of this inhuman treatment...especially with us Pakistanis here to help and encourage them..lol!

PS. I apologize for my pathetic inadequacies of English language :)

Ali1 #278

Dear Ali,

You say:

“It must be devastating to ask yourself: Why couldn`t you stop a few thousand Afghans or Brits from ruling over your sorry arses? Are you eunuchs? Is it bad genes or a protein deficient diet?”

And

“Nothing can be worse than not being sure about your ancestry. What did the barbaric Afghans do to your grandmother? Where did your brown eyes come from, was it a turk or a mongol? green eyes? the rapist must be a Brit or a Portuguese then!”

Harimu, and other Hindus on this forum are probably hurt, and enraged, and you probably feel satisfied that you have put harimu in his place… but beyond that what do such statements achieve?

I usually don’t respond to people who have adopted an all out confrontational approach, and use indecent language to put their point across, but Ali, you have a sharp mind and you are well read. Please make an effort to engage in positive, fruitful discussions… And when I say positive, constructive, and fruitful discussions/debate, I don’t mean that we shouldn’t disagree with each other.

In Lukhnow, when Hindus heard accounts of what had happened to the family of Mohammad in Iraq, their women came out with buckets of milk and threw it at the feet of Zuljanah (the replica of Imam Hussain’s horse) and sang a sad song which went something like:

If Mohammad’s family had come to Hind
We would have accorded a warm welcome
And treated them with milk and honey
How sad that Mohammad’s children were slaughtered
They were thirsty and hungry
Even the 6 month-old Ali Asghar was not given a drop of water
Instead the little angel received an arrow, which pierced his dry throat
If only Hussain had decided to come to Hind instead of going to Iraq

This sad song became so famous that Muslim migrants (Mohajirs) from parts of Lukhnow still sing it in Karachi during Moharram… only there are no Hindu women in Karachi who would throw milk at Zuljanah’s feet.

Turks, and Mongols were uncivilized, and crude compared to people of Hindustan. And Arabs (Muslims) slaughtered Mohammad’s family merely a few years after Mohammad died… Hindus, have been traditionally peace-loving, accommodating, and hospitable people who went out of their way to learn about people of different culture. India embraced and provided shelter to the persecuted people from all over the world. If Mongols, and Turks and Brits were able to conquer India, it was not because Hindus were cowards, but because they were sure that once these sword wielding invaders get to know us, they will become part of us… to a large extent this held true… until TNT was proposed.

Harpreet #281 ``Ali1 and Harimau are two sides of the same coin.... look how serenely and with such empathy Ali1 talks to him.....``

I am enjoying this duel already. Maybe you and I can start selling tickets to this show.

Re: Ali

``- In a country like India which has been conquered over and over again, it must be difficult for the Hindus to get over their sense of inadequacy.``

Can you Pakistanis give some advice then? Surely you have experience after losing every war you have ever fought with India. Not to mention that royal beating which sent your grandfather`s friends running in 1971.

correction:
If you have a problem with the way things are done presently(wrt your belief in an India where ALL its citizens can live with dignity and pride) and want to bring about change, the hatred and anger from the past will not get you there(unless you are a politician, in which case, get lost)

And shouldnot you show SOME reason or rationale why anyone should believe you when you assert that you are better than others?

harimau
Just a question: are you committed to an India where ALL its citizens can live with dignity and pride?

(Let us restrict ourselves for the sake of this argument to those who are at this moment its citizens)

If you say no, some are more deserving of dignity and pride than others, then what is the difference between you and a Saudi Arabian shiekh?

If you say yes you are committed to an India where ALL its citizens can live with dignity and pride, well then there is scope for discussion.

Namely, that past/present hurts to dignity and pride have occured with everyone in India. The way to move ahead to more equitable and happy dispensation is not offering or demanding subservience from or to each other`s aims but trying to accomodate all aims.

You seem to feel that affirmative action, celebrating multi-religious heritage and restraining ourselves from violence is subservience. You are mistaken. Its not necessary to give up on pride of Hindu heritage to celebrate the diversity in India or correct historical inequities.

Think of it this way, the `past injustices` you speak about happened in absence of affirmative action, in the absence of celebration of multi-religious heritage and because violence was not restrained(by all concerned).

Now you will say ``but everyone else but Hindus demand subservience and gain their point through disrespect of multi-religious heritage and through violence``. Well, you are not quite right. India would have descended into civil war long ago if large numbers of people hadnot decided to go the peaceful way. What Serb pride or Afghan pride do those countries and communities have left? What Hindu pride will you have left if the situation was like that in parts of Indonesia where religous festivals herald onset of violence not festivities?

Indian politicians make a mess of it because their fundamental aims are different from ordinary citizens viz ``belief in an India where ALL its citizens can live with dignity and pride`` Donot take their actions as benchmark.

If you have a problem with the way things are done presently(wrt belief in an India where ALL its citizens can live with dignity and pride) the hatred and anger from the past will not get you there.

And shouldnot you show SOME reason or rationale why anyone should believe you when you assert that are better than others?

Sadhana

Ref ali1 #: 278

[- Nothing can be worse than not being sure about your ancestry. What did the barbaric Afghans do to your grandmother? Where did your brown eyes come from, was it a turk or a mongol? green eyes? the rapist must be a Brit or a Portuguese then!]

My ancestors had a code of conduct ruled by the caste system. Rape by any person meant automatic exclusion from the caste. So I have no doubts regarding MY ancestry.

On the other hand, you are the ones inventing fanciful Arab, Persian, and Central Asian ancestry to hide the fact that somewhere along the line you had rapists in your family. And let us not forget the Sayyids, the true descendants of the Prophet among you. And the Ashrafs and the Mirzas and the Baigs. The invaders only had princes and no common soldiers, it would seem. Or, as the saying goes, All chiefs and no Indians.

[I am sure these questions enrage you and I am sure you curse your forefathers for rolling over for every barbarian who crossed the Khyber.]

For reasons mentioned above, I am not enraged but amused. The lowest of the Dalits in India stands proud that he did not abandon his religion despite a millennium of abuse by the invaders. You people do not have that pride; instead you go around claiming to be the sole possessors of Truth, Knowledge, Wisdom, and the way to Janat with 72 houris waiting for jihadis.

[I have nothing but sympathy for you.]

Don`t make me laugh harder. As it is I can hardly hold my sides.

Ali1 and Harimau are two sides of the same coin.... look how serenely and with such empathy Ali1 talks to him.....

Can I make a suggestion? Both of you take your gangs of bigots to the Thar desert or somewhere and fight each other to the death. Whoever is left standing we can finish off with afew missiles....... seriously, be patriots, you`ll both be doing our countries a very big favour......

Harimau #267 #268 #269 #270 #....aaaaaargghhhh

Your use of disgusting language with people who disagree with your views indicates that you grew up in a gutter where abusive language was the norm. So excuse me if I refuse to engage in any serious discussion with you.

Descendants of rapists and invaders, answer this question. Hindu-apologists, try if you can.

With increased mobility and communication, with mosques blaring out the Prophet`s love for all humanity as opposed to Hinduism`s social discrimination, how many Dalits of India (they are supposed to be around 30%) of the population have converted to Islam? You still expect me to believe in the nonsense about illiterate peasants falling for sophisticated religious talk from fakirs and sufis and converting en masse to the invader`s religion?

How come among the evrybody-is-equal Islamic society in Sindh, you have castes? How come you have Jats, Rajputs among the Muslims? Isn`t everybody equal?

How come among Christians in India caste is still practiced?

So, in what way the lower castes liberated from their Hindu oppressors by becoming the followers of the One True Faith?

Harimau, I don`t understand what you want. Do you want the Temple to be built in Ayodhya?

Is it okay with you if you were the target of the revenge for the anti-sikh riots in 1984. After all the sikhs are entitled to their pound of Hindu flesh.

I am not talking about affirmative action (it is required and is NOT an injustice against upper castes). I am talking about the dalits destroying temples because they were not allowed to enter them for a millenium.

Harimau # 267

Harimau, I fully understand where you are coming from. I dont grudge you for what you have said and here are the reasons.

- In a country like India which has been conquered over and over again, it must be difficult for the Hindus to get over their sense of inadequacy.

- It must be devastating to ask yourself: Why couldn`t you stop a few thousand Afghans or Brits from ruling over your sorry arses? Are you eunuchs? Is it bad genes or a protein deficient diet?

- Nothing can be worse than not being sure about your ancestry. What did the barbaric Afghans do to your grandmother? Where did your brown eyes come from, was it a turk or a mongol? green eyes? the rapist must be a Brit or a Portuguese then!

I am sure these questions enrage you and I am sure you curse your forefathers for rolling over for every barbarian who crossed the Khyber. I have nothing but sympathy for you.

wisecomments #262

I dont have a problem if muslims hand over a mosque or two to hindus to promote harmony etc. in India. I am not sure if this is religiously all right but would think it is based on my limited understanding of the religion.

However, please keep in mind that the dispute was in court and the litigants were engaged in negotiations on the sidelines when the mosque was pulled down in 1993. You neeed good faith to negotiate which I dont think is there on part of the Sangh Parivar and Muslims regocgize that very well.

I think more than building the temple the BJPites need to feel that ``we are not eunuchs`` (Khusha Bhai Thakre). Tearing down the mosque and killing muslims was the real kick for them! Handing over mosques will not solve this problem.

Harimau,

{{Where the hell is Farzana Versey? Moved to Kabul to work for Afghan women`s welfare? Where the hell are the Pakistanis who have been calling us Hindus penis worshippers? Gone to harvest opium?

Where the hell are the Hindu apologists? Why don`t you respond except to say we need to turn the other cheek? Do you have the guts to say that Muhammed is a child molester?}}

All of us have gone to the bathroom to puke after reading your rantings.

Reply #: 260 shankar wrote:

``At the same time, he says any peace agreement signed by Musharraf will be tantamount to him signing his resignation.``

Nothing could be further from the current situation. Musharraf is not coming out swinging these days and is very much in a negotiating mood in spite of pressure from the ``armies of God``.

you added:

``If that is the case what is the point of talking to Musharraf? Obviously, there will be a big show of peace talks which will be deadlocked.``

If all three parties come to the table with an open mind, a solution to this promblen can be found.

And finally:

``At which point both sides will go back & proclaim to their respective nations (& the world) that the other is not interested in peace & the same damn thing is going to go on & on.``

Nobody has the luxury of maintaining this bloody status quo. There is no sane alternative to peace
in Kashmir. There will be rocky days during the negotiations but the matter is urgent and explosive enough to warrant that nobody leaves the table permanently. That is the only reason I am optimistic.

Ras

Harimau,

And will you join others in promoting retribution to the people who were involved in the murder of innocent Muslim women children and men post Ayodhya. Your beloved Fascist politicians who want to sow hatred?

You dont give a toss about 1984, because you happily walk a path that will lead to more pain and death.

The point I was making was that your mindset leads to people getting killed today and now for the sake of your inadequacies, these Muslims have nothing to do with what Aurengzeb and his ilk did.

I will suggest to you Harimau that when you feel the lick of cool steel against your neck or the heat of your mothers/fathers/wifes/sons/daughters body combusting or smell the decomposing corpse of your brother or sister from those who seek retribution for past injustices rendered by ``your type``, in that moment you will realise the utter moral depravity of what you are saying.

It is random isnt it? And if it happens it will happen because of YOU.....

But of course, it isnt your fault, you just want the innocents to pay for your inferiority and inadequacy.

You are pathetic.

Get over it Harimau

Ref MaheshG #: 245

[are you an upper caste Hindu?]

None of your business, but you can guess the answer.

[How would you feel if all the lower castes got together for revenge against the upper castes for all the unfair treatment meted to them over the centuries? Do you want the descendants of upper caste Hindus to pay for what their ancestors did?]

When I have been denied admission to professional colleges because of my caste, when my children are now being denied admission to professional colleges, I can very well say that I have, willingly or unwillingly, paid the price. And if the affirmative action continues for another 1000 years, I wouldn`t have a problem with it. That is because I do not accept defeat at the hands of those lesser than me. (Before you misinterpret this, I mean the politicians by this. Jeez, there are times when you have to spell out EVERY single thing.)

Ref Harpreet #: 256

[I personally as a Sikh would like to take a Kirpan and chop off a load of Congressite Hindu heads in retaliation for the 1984 riots.]

I shall cheer you for rendering justice to the innocent victims of the 1984 riots. My reaction when I heard of Indira Gandhi`s death was: `She had it coming`.

[You scoundrel, you insult their religion]

What did I do? Did I call them penis worshippers? If I did, they should be upset because they obviously aren`t. You mean I referred to Ayesha, the 9-year-old wife of Prophet Muhammad? That is a historical fact. The major debate at Al Azhar University is at what age the marriage was consummated. Don`t believe me? Ask the resident experts on Islam.

Everybody, including Sikhs, get so annoyed but nobody has an answer to one single question I have asked.

Ref dost-mittar #: 263

[Are you a Pakistani agent planted on Chowk?]

Ha, ha, ha. The typical `foreign hand` evoked by India everytime their incompetence causes a major tragedy. You have learnt well at the feet of the leftists.

[Your rants are worse than those of the worst of the lunatic fringe of the Sangh parivaar.]

But you have no answer to my questions, do you? Because it is so uncomfortable to face questions that will produce answers that you don`t WANT TO KNOW?

[If India follows your proposal, it will be in a civil war much worse than anything ISI can dream of. And will soon dengenerate into talbinisation of the country.]

Read my posts with a cool head and tell me what I have proposed. Bilal Ahmad is the only person who could see that I have proposed NOTHING and asked what it is that I want. You all have your typical knee-jerk reaction of `let us not hurt the sentiments of those who historically have killed us and raped our women`.

[BTW when you send all muslims to Pakistan, how will you make sure that Dr.Kalam doesn`t take all your nuclear secrets and missile plans with him?]

Identify ONE post where I sent all Muslims to Pakistan?

All of you Hindu-apologists and Muslim moderates, read your good brother`s statement on what Allah has commanded.

-----Begin Quote-----

adnan_672 #: 261

take time out to read thru the quran

most of wht u have criticized

as ideological consensus of the Islamists

are the commands of allah

ignorant pseudo intellectuals speak without sound knowledge of religion are as bad as mullahs who speak on science without knowledge of science

spare us from ur half baked ideas

-----End Quote-------

Yes, kill the kaffirs, take their women as your concubines, marry 9-year-olds. The heavens belongs to those who destroy places of idol worship. While you are at it, kill the Shias and the Qadianis. Allah also commands you to grow and sell opium.

Ref tahmed321 #: 265

[Harimau: I feel your pain, brother. You expected Pakis to get mad, but not fellow Indians as well, I bet.]

I knew damn well you Pakistanis had no answer to any of my questions. And I had no doubt that the Hindu-apologists would come out in larger swarms to wring their hands, try to ``reason with`` me, and point out the error of my ways. Instead they should send their sisters and daughters to get raped by the thugs called Islamists and derive joy from it.

[Too bad for you, and one strike in favor of goodwill and good sense in the sub-continent.]

What is good sense? Sending armed thugs to kill pilgrims? Of course I know the answer: they are not true Muslims. Well, let me tell you, they got educated in the best madrassahs you guys can provide.

[Would you think it is time for some introspection and soul-searching? (our mullahs could use a lot of that too, incidentally).]

And time for Muslims to vacate Ayodhya, Mathura and Benares and go live some place else. No, they are Indian citizens and have all the rights? What rights did these guys provide Hindus during 1000 years of their rule?

Ref ali1 #: 248

[Advani, Vajpayee, Murlimanohar Joshi, Uma Bharti and Narsihma Rao should have their behinds whipped to pulp at the Feroz Shah Kotla ground.

Once done, they can come sit on some side walk in the Jamia Masjid area so that people passing by can spit on or kick the pulp to complete the atonement.]

Jinnah`s bones should be dug up, mixed with other food and fed to dogs. The dog excrement should be re-buried in the mausoleum in Karachi for Pakistanis to worship and to serve as a reminder that their country is worth just that.

It took an immigrant Sindhi like Advani to destroy the structure erected by that invader. No namby-pamby Indian had the b_lls.

Shankar #260

This is real problem.

As long economic condition and opportunity does not increase in Pakistan, the lower middle class with deep religious feeling and reward in this world and hereafter is going to recruit more and more more people.

In India also I think, the poverty alleviation and economic opportunity is needed. (Although I have much less knowledge on India).

The problem of Kashmir in my opinion needs to be seen through the eye of Kashmiri, rather than Pakistan or India.

But as saying goes that in the fight of elephant it is the field which suffers.

Harimau: I feel your pain, brother. You expected Pakis to get mad, but not fellow Indians as well, I bet. Too bad for you, and one strike in favor of goodwill and good sense in the sub-continent. Would you think it is time for some introspection and soul-searching? (our mullahs could use a lot of that too, incidentally).

Pankaj: That is a great quote from Tagore ``the clear stream of logic losing it`s way in the desert of dead habit``. I`ll try to remember it. It could come in handy with some folks on chowk...

ali1#

I don`t mind including Murali Manohar and Uma Bharti in the list.

Why cannot we have a greater standard for Indian Muslims too? Why can`t Indian Muslims say we will give up some old Mosques that remind you of cruelty done to Hindus (If you don`t know the dispute exists from 1850 and not a recent one)? Why should there be proove needed for every old Mosque, specially when it is in a sacred place like Ayodhya? (Don`t say religion prevents you. Religion always encourages sacrifice for love. You can ask us to sacrifice Ayodhya for peace, but compare the importance of Ayodhya for Hindu, with a Babri Mosque to a Muslim.).

Why do you have to punsih all the Hindus by denying a temple for what Sanghparivar did? Isn`t it wrong to punish some body else for what Babur might have done?

You want to worship in a place built by a person like Babur (agreed he was a great king but was certainly not lover of peace but war) and flog a peaceful person like Vajpayee.

Indian communal problem will change, if the Indian Muslims says ``We will not worship in any old Mosques that Hindus think are built by cruel Moghuls. Just give us the names.`` AND

if the Indian Hindus replies ``No problem. Keep worshipping on all of them. Now the mosques will remind us of love you showed, and not the cruelty some extinct king did. We would just like to build the Ram temple and you can have a mosque beside it.``

I am dreaming.

(Practically I think, it is a bad idea to have a small mosques beside Temple, as instead of reminding of love, mostly it reminds of the negotiations done to build the temple.)

Harimau

Alas you haven`t answered any of the questions that I raised. Please at least clearly spell out who are your enemies. Ghazanvi, Timur, Aurangzeb who left the earth for hell centuries back, or the innocent Muslims of Modern India. Who do you want to kill and why? What is your criteria of being a Hindu. Is it being able to kill your fellow Muslim! And that too because they are in minority. This is abject cowardice, my friend and not heroism. Why dont you go and recruit your own force of jihad and fight against crazy jihadis. Why should living atone for the crimes of the dead. *Sigh * cool down and do not let the clear stream of logic loose its way into the dreary desert of dead habit, to quote Tagore.

Dear Bilal#255

Indian Muslims are Indian citizens entitled to enjoy their inalienable constitutional rights as any other group. They do *NOT NEED * to do anything to please Harimau or others of his type.

Sincerely

take time out to read thru the quran

most of wht u have criticized

as ideological consensus of the Islamists

are the commands of allah

ignorant pseudo intellectuals speak without sound knowledge of religion are as bad as mullahs who speak on science without knowledge of science

spare us from ur half baked ideas

Ras,

#259

At your request I read that article in the Statesman. He seems to convey to me that the fundo power is rising alarmingly in Pakistan & Musharraf is getting nervous. Before long their political, economic & street power will overwhelm the army. So now is the window of opportunity to pick up the phone. At the same time, he says any peace agreement signed by Musharraf will be tantamount to him signing his resignation.

If that is the case what is the point of talking to Musharraf? Obviously, there will be a big show of peace talks which will be deadlocked. At which point both sides will go back & proclaim to their respective nations (& the world) that the other is not interested in peace & the same damn thing is going to go on & on.

Any comments?

From The Statesman (Calcutta) today:

Pick up that phone Vajpayee!

http://www.thestatesman.org/page.editorial.php3?id=7592&theme=A

Ras

India might be feeling big and strong after the bombs but what Thakre and Harimanu need is Viagra to have the same feeling. Good luck Mannu, and stop writing Hari in front of your name. Mannu describes your personality pretty well.

Shammi has quoted: in the reply section of Bilal Ahmed`s article (reply # 515)
http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?bahmad_oct182000

From The Dawn, Jan. 15, 2001
What price Jihad culture?
By Afzaal Mahmood

Harimau, and others, it`s not the opinions of common people like u or I that matter...it`s indication of things mentioned in this article..that scare me. This article (quoted by Shammi -- or can be read in The Dawn), talks of terrorism, jehadi camps and international concerns over it.

While you and i argue about who did what to who, and who should do what now so that it`s all even (sounds like 6 year olds talking -- you took my blue piece of gum, so now you have to give me your red piece, otherwise i won`t be your friend) the world around us and the things we hold dear...dies a slow death.

in mourning.
Brat

Shammi has quoted: in the reply section of Bilal Ahmed`s article (reply # 515)
http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?bahmad_oct182000

From The Dawn, Jan. 15, 2001
What price Jihad culture?
By Afzaal Mahmood

Harimau, and others, it`s not the opinions of common people like u or I that matter...it`s indication of things mentioned in this article..that scare me. This article (quoted by Shammi -- or can be read in The Dawn), talks of terrorism, jehadi camps and international concerns over it.

While you and i argue about who did what to who, and who should do what now so that it`s all even (sounds like 6 year olds talking -- you took my blue piece of gum, so now you have to give me your red piece, otherwise i won`t be your friend) the world around us and the things we hold dear...dies a slow death.

in mourning.
Brat

Harimau:

Where did you come from?

You think destroying Mosques is going to solve Indias problems?

Sorry to say this but you and your kind are the worst type of people who will keep India backwards and in poverty.

You think you are big and hard because India has the bomb? Do you think persecuting Muslims will make India great?

You ignorant little boy....

I tell you what, after you have finished ridding India of all her Islamic past, I personally as a Sikh would like to take a Kirpan and chop off a load of Congressite Hindu heads in retaliation for the 1984 riots. Who`s going to stop me? You better watch out because I swing high and low..... I will of course not forget to kill lots of women and children. They will have to pay for the sins of.....eerrrr.... Congressite Gandhiites, or something, anyway, I can organise for someone to rape the women of course.....better make sure you`re not in the way man, wrong place at the wrong time.....

Then we`ll let every Dalit who has been opressed throughout the centuries take their pound of flesh, that should be fun.....

Any remaining mussulman can be encouraged to take a pot-shot at Punjabis for what they did at partition as well.

Hhhmmmm..... this sounds like fun.

Now do you feel big and strong?

You scoundrel, you insult their religion, I suggest you look at yourself before pointing the finger..... you are exactly what you rant and rave at them being, an inadequate little bigot, a small man..... go and say those things to a Muslims face, IF YOU DARE. But you wont because you are a coward.

Now get over your pathetic inadequacies. It seems YOU are the castrated one, only a deeply inadequate person could spout so much hatred.

And wash your mouth out

BAI SHARAAM

now give me your best insult Adolf, make me laugh..........

In response to harimau (Misc. posts)
Dear Harimau:

You indeed are a very angry person. What should the Indian Muslims do to make you happy such that they could live in peace and harmony with you (and other angry persons like you)?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. All other interactors, my post is directed toward Harimau only.

Tahmed

thank you for your kind words. I respect and enjoy your posts among many others here at Chowk. I just wish there was a way of properly representing both Pakistan and India...so no one person could stand up and claim to know it all.

I like your suggestion...let them fight each other..would save us a whole lot of trouble...and we`d have a good laugh ;) with each calling to their religion to give them strength! And calling to who? The same POWER that makes us all breathe! And I guess ``god`` will have a good laugh too.
take care...
Brat

Tahmed

thank you for your kind words. I respect and enjoy your posts among many others here at Chowk. I just wish there was a way of properly representing both Pakistan and India...so no one person could stand up and claim to know it all.

I like your suggestion...let them fight each other..would save us a whole lot of trouble...and we`d have a good laugh ;) with each calling to their religion to give them strength! And calling to who? The same POWER that makes us all breathe! And I guess ``god`` will have a good laugh too.
take care...
Brat

Brat #249 Good post. Always a pleasure to read your posts, as I recall from our earlier interaction.

harimau #246 You write: ``Only one man had it right after the nuclear tests: Khushabau Thakre who said, ``We have proved we are not eunuchs.`` ``

If it takes a nuclear test to prove that you are not a eunuch, then it seems to me you and your BJP buddies are very insecure individuals.

Here is a suggestion, since you are obviously fervent in your beliefs: Pick up a gun and go and fight our (Paki) mullahs? The rest of us (Pakis and Indians) can then sit and watch the two birds (Hindu bigots and Paki bigots) get rid of one another, and we wont have to use even one stone for that purpose.

MaheshG

I agree...YAY for BADLA...let`s show the world how much bloodshed we can cause....let`s show these damn Muslims Harimau that we can kill...anything everything...and we`re strong and we can build temples...and we can...hold on. What are you saying? We`re still not great?
Let`s drop the Atomic bomb on the world...that seems to bring greatness for sure...
Brat

MaheshG

I agree...YAY for BADLA...let`s show the world how much bloodshed we can cause....let`s show these damn Muslims Harimau that we can kill...anything everything...and we`re strong and we can build temples...and we can...hold on. What are you saying? We`re still not great?
Let`s drop the Atomic bomb on the world...that seems to bring greatness for sure...
Brat

Harimau,

why don`t you advocate all lower caste Hindus to retaliate against the upper castes. Afterall, we have to level the playing field, don`t we? Why stick to muslims? Let`s go berserk in India because everybody at some point or the other has suffered at somebody else`s hands.

Harimau: [I am asking for just 4 cities to be cleansed of Muslims so that Hindus can worship without hearing `Bismillah ur-Rahman ur-Rahim` blasting from a loudspeaker from a mosque next door. ]

As long as you believe this, I`m sorry that we can`t even communicate! I always believed that a large part of being a hindu was being open enough.

And I`m proud of being able to carry hindu sentiments while listening to Azaan. My Mamaji is as nationalist and hinduwata advocate as anyone can get, but he can read namaaz, and he reads -- in`ilahay rajaun....when hearing of someone`s death, and he`s the same guy who sends me `gayatri mantra` tapes for my personal inner strength.

What does it mean to you to be a hindu? Because *never * ever claim to speak for Hindus. You *don`t * speak for me. And I know you don`t speak for many people like me.

You speak for people who cause these things in the first place...YOU are the people who tear down Mandirs (and Masjids).

The core of your great Hinduism (mine is greater) should be Humanity....where is it? Aren`t the Muslims in these 4 cities HUMANS? WHY SHOULD THEY LEAVE THEIR HOMES?? Why don`t you leave your home and go live where there are no muslims? India is a free country right? GO ON, move, with your family....God forbid your son/daughter marries a Muslim you`d die of a heart attack.

Those 4 cities belong to them as much as you...so you`re no one to pick on them because of their religion..religion is private...it`s not to be used for discrimination..but for private salvation....think about things like this...and worry about your son/daughter loving a Muslim so much that they can die for them...I can.

Hindu apologists..as you call them, are probably the only reason Hinduism is great...FANATICS like you would`ve been killed years ago...and would never have known what hinduism is or can be.

(and if you`re going to be hung up on caste...you can`t get higher than mine...believe my ancestors if you don`t believe me...so that in your eyes should equalise us at least to be able to talk?)

Eagerly awaiting your reply
Brat

Harimau: [I am asking for just 4 cities to be cleansed of Muslims so that Hindus can worship without hearing `Bismillah ur-Rahman ur-Rahim` blasting from a loudspeaker from a mosque next door. ]

As long as you believe this, I`m sorry that we can`t even communicate! I always believed that a large part of being a hindu was being open enough.

And I`m proud of being able to carry hindu sentiments while listening to Azaan. My Mamaji is as nationalist and hinduwata advocate as anyone can get, but he can read namaaz, and he reads -- in`ilahay rajaun....when hearing of someone`s death, and he`s the same guy who sends me `gayatri mantra` tapes for my personal inner strength.

What does it mean to you to be a hindu? Because *never * ever claim to speak for Hindus. You *don`t * speak for me. And I know you don`t speak for many people like me.

You speak for people who cause these things in the first place...YOU are the people who tear down Mandirs (and Masjids).

The core of your great Hinduism (mine is greater) should be Humanity....where is it? Aren`t the Muslims in these 4 cities HUMANS? WHY SHOULD THEY LEAVE THEIR HOMES?? Why don`t you leave your home and go live where there are no muslims? India is a free country right? GO ON, move, with your family....God forbid your son/daughter marries a Muslim you`d die of a heart attack.

Those 4 cities belong to them as much as you...so you`re no one to pick on them because of their religion..religion is private...it`s not to be used for discrimination..but for private salvation....think about things like this...and worry about your son/daughter loving a Muslim so much that they can die for them...I can.

Hindu apologists..as you call them, are probably the only reason Hinduism is great...FANATICS like you would`ve been killed years ago...and would never have known what hinduism is or can be.

(and if you`re going to be hung up on caste...you can`t get higher than mine...believe my ancestors if you don`t believe me...so that in your eyes should equalise us at least to be able to talk?)

Eagerly awaiting your reply
Brat

ATONEMENT:

Advani, Vajpayee, Murlimanohar Joshi, Uma Bharti and Narsihma Rao should have their behinds whipped to pulp at the Feroz Shah Kotla ground.

Once done, they can come sit on some side walk in the Jamia Masjid area so that people passing by can spit on or kick the pulp to complete the atonement.

Ref Pankaj #: 233

[Sorry to butt in your debate. But Harimau, I read wisecomment`s suggestions of putting this issue of Mandir off for a few years and I found it to be reasonable.]

Non-Muslims are not allowed to enter Makkah and Medina except under pain of death. Why don`t we reciprocate this wonderful sentiment and ban all Muslims from Mathura, Ayodhya, Benares and Prayag (Allahabad)? Would that be acceptable to the ever-so-reasonable Muslims who populate Chowk and Hindu-apologists like you?

I am asking for just 4 cities to be cleansed of Muslims so that Hindus can worship without hearing `Bismillah ur-Rahman ur-Rahim` blasting from a loudspeaker from a mosque next door. These Muslims can settle in the surrounding countryside and freely practice their religion.

Any takers? Farzana? Urstruly? Ali1? YLH?

How about the Hindu-apologists who cannot apologize enough for getting killed in the millions, for getting their women raped and carried off, for their lands expropriated to be given to invaders and turncoats? I know your answer: let us forget history but not too much because Hindus have a lot of apologizing to do to people like Akbar, Aurangzeb, Jinnah, CE Musharraf, etc.

To all those Pakistanis and the so-called `assertive` Muslims of India who demand proof of a level playing ground in India:

How about if in India we destroy EVERY SINGLE MOSQUE in NOrthern India, from Gujarat in the west to Assam in the east, from Kashmir in the north to Andhra in the south? That would level the playing field as for as freedom of worship is concerned. How about a reverse-jizya on Muslims for the next 600 years of anywhere from 6 to 30% of income as levied by the sultans of Delhi? That would level the economic playing field. How about appropriation of lots of Muslim owned property? That ought to compensate for the lands lost by India`s Hindus at the hands of the thugs who called themselves sultans, nawabs, nizams, etc.

Where the hell is Farzana Versey? Moved to Kabul to work for Afghan women`s welfare? Where the hell are the Pakistanis who have been calling us Hindus penis worshippers? Gone to harvest opium?

Where the hell are the Hindu apologists? Why don`t you respond except to say we need to turn the other cheek? Do you have the guts to say that Muhammed is a child molester?

Only one man had it right after the nuclear tests: Khushabau Thakre who said, ``We have proved we are not eunuchs.`` The Bomb is an assertion of India`s resurgence. The world doesn`t have to like the fact that India has the Bomb. The Pakistanis don`t have to like the fact that India has its own system. And you Hindu-apologists to the entire world can go get castrated so that you don`t propagate your species. Even the Chinese have sent Li Peng to India to patch up relations. That ought to tell you which way the world is moving and it is NOT an apologetic India that they expect to deal with.

A question to Harimau,

are you an upper caste Hindu? How would you feel if all the lower castes got together for revenge against the upper castes for all the unfair treatment meted to them over the centuries? Do you want the descendants of upper caste Hindus to pay for what their ancestors did?

Harimau #238

If you are so interested in the RIGHTS of MUSLIMS in your country, first give the right of self determination to Kashmiris instead of suppressing them with 700,000 armed personnel.

Progress of Muslims is blocked by Muslims. Hunh.

Just see your face in mirror. And if you have any shame left stop spewing hatred against Islam, Pakistan and Muslims.

By the way your Foreign Minister is going to meet four wifers in Saudi Arabia with his ``Kasah-e-Gadai`` for oil very soon. May be he will be licking their boots for it. Shame on you.

Harimau #241

For that matter, Sikhs who have a history of tense relation with Muslims all along have been free to come to Pakistan to their places of worship.

If you try to capture the land of a people by force, do you like them to give you floral wreath for this.

The news item (excerpts only) below, appearing in Dawn Jan 14 2001, indicates that the military is trying to engage the fundamentalists in a dialogue and possibly a compromise. While it always makes sense to attempt a dialogue, there is a potentially great danger that the mullahs will end up obtaining some kind of constitutional status that puts them above being elected. This is also the aim of the military, with it`s talk of Ataturk and the Turkish model. Needless to add, both parties (mullahs and the military) seek to gain by force a status that they would never be given willingly by the people of Pakistan. I greatly fear for our freedoms and of the return of true democracy and rule of law in Pakistan. Let us all pray for good sense to prevail, and the will of the Pakistani people to be respected.

ISLAMABAD, Jan 13: The government on Saturday agreed to set up ulema bodies from tehsil to national level to promote sectarian harmony and to amend the constitution to make Shariat country`s supreme law. The government`s intention of setting up ulema boards as well as constituting similar high-level commissions at federal and provincial levels was made public by interior minister Moinuddin Haider while addressing an ulema Convention held here on Saturday.

...Though the participants unanimously supported the government`s decision, they strongly criticized it for planning to interfere in the affairs of ``madaris`` (religious institutions)...There were also some defiant voices challenging the government`s ban on display of arms, while a few questioned the writ of the government which, according to them, did not exist at all...Almost all major religio-political groups including Jamaat-i-Islami, different factions of JUI and JUP, Sipah-i-Sahaba Pakistan, Tehrike Jafaria Pakistan (Mousavi group), Jamaat Ahle Sunnat, Pakistan Awami Tehrik etc were present in the convention. Tehrik Fiqh-i-Jaffaria (Naqvi) did not attend...

To all those Pakistanis who believe India`s secularism is sham:

How would you like the laws of Saudi Arabia enacted in India to apply the laws of the Prophet to His followers? You want your 4 wives to f___ but I guess you wouldn`t want to get stoned to death for adultery. For that, you would want the Indian Penal Code to apply to Muslims, I suppose.

That complete fraud MF Husain paints naked women and labels them Lakshmi and Saraswati, Hindu goddesses. That is considered art. But Salman Rushdie`s `Satanic Verses` gets banned first thing in India. How would you like it if I paint an old goat fondling a 9-year-old girl and title the painting `Muhammed`s Sexual Encounter with His Wife`? That ought to go down well in Karachi; I should expect a multi-million rupee price for the painting. More likely a fatwa like Rushdie got, I would think.

Again, a question to all those who apologize for being a Hindu:

How long will the Amarnath caves still remain in its current form and be open to Hindu pilgrims (this is the place where the Kashmiri ``freedom fighters`` recently killed 105 pilgrims, in case your memory is short, as Farzana Versey advises you) after Kashmir is handed over to Pakistan and the followers of the One True Faith?

As a Hindu, you can go into Chinese-controlled Tibet for a pilgrimage to Mt. Kailash and Lake Mansarovar. The Chinese are atheistic but at least they let you practice your religion.

Ref Brat #: 235

[I found something intersting that is related to this article and the debates we frequently have on Hinduism and Islam. I quote directly and it`s long, so please bear with me...

as explained in ``Kabir - the apostle of Hindu-Muslim Unity`` -- by Muhammed Hedayetullah (printed in Delhi)]

If you are going to post something, post something written by somebody other than a Muslim apologist for the sultans of Delhi.

The Hindus converted voluntarily to Islam? In undivided India, Muslims constituted nearly 33% of the population. Let us take another religion that started 700 years before Islam, reached India less than 50 years after its birth in the Middle East and has had adherents since then. I am talking about Christianity. It has a total following of 5%. Doesn`t Christianity offer equality to the depressed classes of India? How come they were able to attract only 5% of the population? In what way is Islam a superior alternative to Christianity? How come with almost a 1000 year headstart (after all, when did those Mohammed bin Qasim bin Camels reach Sindh?), Christianity didn`t take hold? And you will soon be telling me that these voluntary converts to the peaceful religion of Islam rose up against their brahmin oppressors and destroyed their temples.

For once, stop believing the bullshit coming out of the history department of Jawaharlal Nehru University and try to think for yourself. And ask the question: how come in Northern India, the Hindu religion is only in the hearts of the people but its external manifestation in the form of places of worship are nowhere to be seen in the magnificence with which they can be seen in the South?

All of you crying over Babri Masjid:

Answer this question.

What chance does Vaishnodevi have as surviving as a Hindu shrine if Kashmir is handed over to the followers of the one and only True Faith?

Will the Shiva temple in Srinagar atop the hill established by Adi Shankaracharya survive one day after the Pakistani hordes walk into that place?

All of you Pakistanis crying tears over the ill treatment of Muslims in India, answer this question:

How many Muslim women are held in jails in India for the crime of being raped?

All of you Islamic apologists who claim that there is no place for a professional mullah in True Islam, why are there so many mullahs preaching hatred in Pakistan? How about that barbaric institution called Jumma Masjid in Delhi where the resident Imam is making pronouncements on the Shariat law, KILLING OFF ANY CHANCE FOR MUSLIMS TO ADVANCE? How come there are so many ayatollahs and lower grades of mullahs in Iran? How about the fact that you have got Al Azhar university in Cairo turning out more professional mullahs?

wisecomments #many
I agree with what you say.

harimau #many
Something we just donot need is the application of TNT-clone-theories in India. Its worth being committed to better ways than thickheaded Mutually-A-D (Indian Hindus and Muslims) to gain our points with each other.

Sadhana

In response to wisecomment (Reply # 232)
Dear Wisecomments:

If you read my writings a little more critically, you many notice a commonality between us (in addition to our humanity). Like you, I also believe in the freedom of thinking. This is what it should be. We, however, differ most of the time due to our different contextual experiences and priorities (which, in turn, is not such a bad thing).

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

I found something intersting that is related to this article and the debates we frequently have on Hinduism and Islam. I quote directly and it`s long, so please bear with me...

as explained in ``Kabir - the apostle of Hindu-Muslim Unity`` -- by Muhammed Hedayetullah (printed in Delhi)

``BEGIN QUOTE
The most obvious result of the religious impact of Islam on Hinduism, of course, is the existence of a large Muslim population in India. The view that Islam was propagated in India primarily through arms cannot be upheld historically. Aside from the other evidence, the distribution of the Muslim population does not support it. It has been argued by different scholars that if the spread of Islam was due to the might of the Muslim kings, one would expect the largest proportion of Muslims in those areas which were the centres of Muslim political power. This, however, is not the case, as is shown by the actual distribution of the Muslim population in and around Delhi, Lucknow, Ahmadabad, Ahmadnagar, Bijapur etc. (although these were the principal sectors of Muslim political power, there has never been a Muslim majority in these areas...)
On the other hand, Islam was never a political power in Malabar, ``yet today Muslims form nearly 30% of its total population``...These historical facts point to the fact that Muslim political authorities were not primarily instrumental in spreading Islam in India, rather it`s fairly clear that most of the conversions was the work of the Sufis (Muslim mystics) and Muslim trader-missionaries who came to India beginning with the early seventh century of the Christian era.
....

In Bengal, the Sufis found the widest response to their message among the outcastes and depressed classes. To them, the creed of Islam, with its emphasis on equality, must have come as a liberating force. The acceptance of Islam not only ensured free and equal entry into the great Islamic brotherhood, but, also, exemption from the burdensome poll-tax (jizya). [footnote: Tribute, or protection tax. The tax was levied on those non-Muslim(dhimmis) who lived in Muslim territories....(note:goes on to explain more)] In Begal the Sufis ``very frequently transferred ancient Hindu and Buddhist stories of miracles to Muslim saints, fusing the old religion into the new on a level that could be accepted by the masses.``
....

The religious schools and movements which arose during this period (7-15 century A.D.) are the results of mutual influences of Hindus and Muslims through `bhakti` [devotional?if u aren`t familiar with the word] mysticism. Some argue that the influence of Islam is the determining factor. This view, however, seems to be an oversimplifcation of a very complex phenomenon, for many of the elements associated with the `bhakti` movement of the period under examination had already been important elements in Hinduism for many centuries. It is reasonable to assume that the influence of Islam gave an impetus to the already existing bhakti ideas, such as monotheism, human equality etc. This view has been corroborated by scholars like Yusuf Husain and Sayyid `Abid husain. We have historical evidence showing that the Sufis had been directly or indirectly influenced by Hindu thought and institutions before the conquest of India by the Muslims. Then, during the period under investigation the Sufis in turn simulated and revitalised, in conjunction with the bhakti reformers, those very elements of Hinduism which had originally influenced them. Thus, Dr. S. Radhakrishnan observes: ``The reform movements of Ramananda, Caitanya, Kabir, and Nanak show the stimulus of Islam`` This view has been affirmed by Ikram.
Because of the importance of great names such as Kabir and Nanak there is a tendency to regard, what was essentially a movement of interaction between two faiths, as being in the main the one-sided influence of Islam on Hinduism. This impression is probably misleading, for the contact of cultures means an interchange of ideas and customs and does not usually lead to the complete domination of the one by the other. Hence Professor Radhakrishnan has justly said: The clash of cults and the contact of cultures do not, as a rule, result in a complete domination of the one by the other. In all true contact there is an interchange of elements, though the foreign elements are given a new significance by those who accept them.`` Islamic ideas played a vital role in revitalising Indian bhakti ideas. However, Muslim society was also influenced by its contact with Hinduism. Some of these contacts had been made even before Islamic rule was established in India...

END QUOTE``
again, sorry for such a long quote, i would love to do the review of this book, but since i don`t have the skills, i request you if any of you can do a review of this or other similar book.
Brat

I found something intersting that is related to this article and the debates we frequently have on Hinduism and Islam. I quote directly and it`s long, so please bear with me...

as explained in ``Kabir - the apostle of Hindu-Muslim Unity`` -- by Muhammed Hedayetullah (printed in Delhi)

``BEGIN QUOTE
The most obvious result of the religious impact of Islam on Hinduism, of course, is the existence of a large Muslim population in India. The view that Islam was propagated in India primarily through arms cannot be upheld historically. Aside from the other evidence, the distribution of the Muslim population does not support it. It has been argued by different scholars that if the spread of Islam was due to the might of the Muslim kings, one would expect the largest proportion of Muslims in those areas which were the centres of Muslim political power. This, however, is not the case, as is shown by the actual distribution of the Muslim population in and around Delhi, Lucknow, Ahmadabad, Ahmadnagar, Bijapur etc. (although these were the principal sectors of Muslim political power, there has never been a Muslim majority in these areas...)
On the other hand, Islam was never a political power in Malabar, ``yet today Muslims form nearly 30% of its total population``...These historical facts point to the fact that Muslim political authorities were not primarily instrumental in spreading Islam in India, rather it`s fairly clear that most of the conversions was the work of the Sufis (Muslim mystics) and Muslim trader-missionaries who came to India beginning with the early seventh century of the Christian era.
....

In Bengal, the Sufis found the widest response to their message among the outcastes and depressed classes. To them, the creed of Islam, with its emphasis on equality, must have come as a liberating force. The acceptance of Islam not only ensured free and equal entry into the great Islamic brotherhood, but, also, exemption from the burdensome poll-tax (jizya). [footnote: Tribute, or protection tax. The tax was levied on those non-Muslim(dhimmis) who lived in Muslim territories....(note:goes on to explain more)] In Begal the Sufis ``very frequently transferred ancient Hindu and Buddhist stories of miracles to Muslim saints, fusing the old religion into the new on a level that could be accepted by the masses.``
....

The religious schools and movements which arose during this period (7-15 century A.D.) are the results of mutual influences of Hindus and Muslims through `bhakti` [devotional?if u aren`t familiar with the word] mysticism. Some argue that the influence of Islam is the determining factor. This view, however, seems to be an oversimplifcation of a very complex phenomenon, for many of the elements associated with the `bhakti` movement of the period under examination had already been important elements in Hinduism for many centuries. It is reasonable to assume that the influence of Islam gave an impetus to the already existing bhakti ideas, such as monotheism, human equality etc. This view has been corroborated by scholars like Yusuf Husain and Sayyid `Abid husain. We have historical evidence showing that the Sufis had been directly or indirectly influenced by Hindu thought and institutions before the conquest of India by the Muslims. Then, during the period under investigation the Sufis in turn simulated and revitalised, in conjunction with the bhakti reformers, those very elements of Hinduism which had originally influenced them. Thus, Dr. S. Radhakrishnan observes: ``The reform movements of Ramananda, Caitanya, Kabir, and Nanak show the stimulus of Islam`` This view has been affirmed by Ikram.
Because of the importance of great names such as Kabir and Nanak there is a tendency to regard, what was essentially a movement of interaction between two faiths, as being in the main the one-sided influence of Islam on Hinduism. This impression is probably misleading, for the contact of cultures means an interchange of ideas and customs and does not usually lead to the complete domination of the one by the other. Hence Professor Radhakrishnan has justly said: The clash of cults and the contact of cultures do not, as a rule, result in a complete domination of the one by the other. In all true contact there is an interchange of elements, though the foreign elements are given a new significance by those who accept them.`` Islamic ideas played a vital role in revitalising Indian bhakti ideas. However, Muslim society was also influenced by its contact with Hinduism. Some of these contacts had been made even before Islamic rule was established in India...

END QUOTE``
again, sorry for such a long quote, i would love to do the review of this book, but since i don`t have the skills, i request you if any of you can do a review of this or other similar book.
Brat

ahmadb#

A praise from you is highly appreciated. I don`t like creating expectations as it prevents me from thinking freely and put chains on my thought. I might disappoint you in future with my free thoughts.

harimau#

In Farzna versey article there were only two posts who supported building of Ram Temple. I did not see you posting your emotions their. You can hit previous articles on chowk and look at those articles and post on them. It was only me who tried to tell them to read those two posts when they were not trying to understand it at all and just referring it as barbaric act. Here is the link http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=fversey_dec1100&n=240#reply430.

The atonement is for the fear that was created in Indian Muslims. The fear was created because the way the things were done. The atonement is specially for harming the Muslims of Ayodhya. The kar sevaks were in huge number, and did not they make a mistake by harming Indian Muslims their? Just because nobody is apoligizing for aurangzeb, should we not apologize for our mistakes? Why do we have to lower ourselves to the level of aurangzeb? Even Advani doesn`t say that ``what happened in Ayodhya was right?``. It is the INDIAN Muslims who do not like Aurangzeb being called MUSLIM. In Pakistan Aurangzeb is praised for being a devout Muslim. So don`t put ALL the Indian Muslims in the same basket as Pakistanis.

Americans use a different way of logic in convincing things. When they want people to respect blacks they don`t use the morality stick but say hey it will make a stronger nation. Think along the same logic. Will it be good for India to have its minority live in fear? Will it make for a better India if Indian Muslims are fearless as we are? A nation cannot realize its full potential unless all its citizen do not feel safe and secure.

In reply to harimau : Babri Masjid is purely an internal Indian matter -- if Pakistanis want to have a say in what should happen, they are welcome to apply for passports. They cannot have it both ways -- two nation theory and the right to their input considered.

That having been said, it is also necessary to say that what happened to the Babri Masjid and what happpened in the aftermath is acid eating away at India`s foundations. What someone else does to you can be overcome; what you do to yourself can be irreparable.

-Arun Gupta

Harimau and Wisecomments

Sorry to butt in your debate. But Harimau, I read wisecomment`s suggestions of putting this issue of Mandir off for a few years and I found it to be reasonable. True, there were invaders and plunderers like Ghazanvi, Timur in the past. True, they demolished thousands of temples and killed Hindus. But then, do you want to reverse the process by committing the same to Muslims in India. Why do you want to punish them for the fault of their ancestors. And btw, do you think that the ancestors of most of the Muslims of subcontinent were Afghans/Arabs. No sir, they were Hindus. If you have read the history carefully, you would know that even among Hindus, the low caste people had been subjected to abject humiliation and discrimination for at least two thousand years by high castes. Would you suggest to reverse the history and subject the high caste people to the same treatment for another two thousand years to atone for the crimes of their ancestors!

No Sir, things do not work out like this. Retribution and hatred reinforce each other. Hatred can be killed not by hatred, but by mercy. And please dont call Muslims/Christians and any other groups as foreigners. This land beyond Indus had a glorious tradition of assimilating various nationalities into its fold. Anyone who identifies himself with this land is an Indian/ Pakistani irrespective of his religion or ethnicity. The Muslims will have to realise this and Hindus have to give up their claim of sole inheritor of her(motherland India) greatness.

Sincerely

PS Dont you think that the need of the hour is economic development and collective prosperity instead of salvaging one`s ego by seeking retribution. I believe in the Upnishadic thought that ``God lies in one`s conciousness`` and any other external symbolism is unnecessary. I believe that God ie ``Brahma`` if he exists, will be happier when he sees that none of his creation die of hunger than by seeing another temple devoted to him.

In respone to wisecomments (Reply # 228)
Dear Wisecommnets:

It is interesting to see so many differenct opinions and ways of seeing our multi-faceted reality. I am sure that with continued and sufficient deliberations all of us will develop a better sense of our existence on the face of this earth. I, in particular, appreciate your sense of understanding and justice.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

All of you Hindu-apologists out there:

Delhi has been the capital of India from times immemorial. Hastinapur, the capital of the Pandavas, was supposed to have been at the site of present day Delhi.

Is there one temple more than 200 years old in all of Delhi? Compare that to the mosques, the forts, the minars, etc., built by the sultans of Delhi.

Who needs to atone, Hindus or Muslims?

Who needs to apologize?

Who got their own country but refuse to take in their co-religionists, their Ummah?

harimau#

I saw your reply only after I posted my reply to urstruly. Read the reply to that and than continue with this. Have you seen my posts on Farzna Versey column? If you have, you will realize I have some sentiments that is common with you. YES I HAVE NOTICED THE DIFFERENCE between the number of old temples in SOUTH and north. Nobody told me the reasons, and I concluded as you did. I have not thought about it again so I still have the same conclusions.

Have you been to BJP site on web. There is a very good article in which they said that religion and politics should not be mixed. They claim that christainity used to do it, Islam is still doing it. What about BJP? Aren`t they doing the same thing by using the word ``Hindutva``? Redefining the meaning of the word doesn`t help as most common man understands it in only one way.

What is the big deal in waiting for Ram temple for 10 years? It doesn`t mean that temples cannot be build in other places. The moratorium is only in one place.

Did you know that Kar sevaks also burnt Muslim houses in Ayodhya? So what big deal if some serve as servants for few years at their house. How do you feel at the thought that somebody did thinks like that to our ancestors? How will they feel, about it, when thing like that has been done to THEM. The fear and scar will take generations and few years of being servant will not help anything. It will be just a token and many will even laugh at Hindus for being Hypocrate. But one has to be sincere in one`s attempt and hope and pray. Let the skeptical laugh at you. Being laughed at is part of the punishment.

Think for a moment if you were an Indian muslims. What would be your fear? The fear would be what Next? Fear itself creates problem. How can you get rid of those fears? One way is to let them fear and slowly they will realize that their fear was baseless. That could have been done, if we did not have politicians who will take advantages of the fear. Congress will not sit behind. Congress will take advantage of the fears and enrich its muslim vote bank. They are the one who were trying to make the atmosphere communal now since, BJP is in power. Add to it our neighbor like Pakistan, whom we cannot stop from interferring. Yes we can do ``hot pursuit``.

Advani talks big. could he pursue his policy of ``hot pursuit``? I admire Vajpayee, but damn if Advani has the courage to get the support, kick him out. The reality is different. India is different. The fear will be exploited. Who will be harmed? Not the politicians, it will be the common man.

We have a right to demand Ram Temple but should not we give peace a chance? Did you know that Krishna went to Kaurav for five villages, instead of a kingdom for the sake of peace. He was ready to sacrifice a lot for peace. Only when Karuav did not agree that he adviced the fight.

I am not saying you not to vote for BJP. They have a point and they know that. They are partly sincere about the point too, but they will give up the Ram temple issue, just like that, if they see that it is not going to win them votes. They are also politicians. We as people should use politicians to get what we want. But be careful, and ready to sacrifice if we realise that instead of ``using them``, they are using us. I don`t want BJP to go away, but I do want BJP to correct itself. It should dis-associate itself from all religious group. It is the thing they have said at their website. Even Vajpayee criticised Advani`s rath yatra.

Stop for a moment and start thinking at the current communal atmoshphere. How many times have you thought of ``Khan brothers`` as muslims and not actors? I saw an article like that on rediff and I hated it. I admire Sharukh Khan, but when they bring religion for a moment everyone looses sanity. Then you calm yourself down and think and gain back your sanity. If you are not like that, you are very secular by nature, and other people bringing religion doesn`t blind you for a moment you are different.

I know you won`t understand what I am talking about.

This is my another attempt:

http://www.shobak.org/partitio.htm. This is from Bangladeshi muslims. You will relaize not all of them think alike, just because of their religion. Read this article and see how Jinnah exploited the tension.

It is about past. But you will begin to see the similarity with BJP (I don`t include Vajpayee in the same group as Advani). Don`t think Jinnah was insincere, he was always stood for muslims. But I think the politician in him got the better of him.

Recently you would have heard, Bangladeshi court ordered fatwa as illegal. Some of the clergics are supposed to have fled villages as people are venting anger against them. Indonesians Muslim leaders don`t even hesitate to quote from Ramayan and Mahabarat. Turkey a Muslim nation, has a leader versed in Sanskrit and Veda. People are same, it is the vision they are given have the problem.

I can give you three examples where nation were based on a faulty vision:

1)Germany`s Aryan race.

2)Pakistan`s vision of an Isalm Nation.

3)BJP`s vision of a Hindutva nation.

What did they bring to the common man? Ideally one can feel superior about oneself without harming others, but it seldom happens.

Ref insane-comments #: 227

Begin quote



Having said that, I also believe that ``atonement`` is necessary as justice cannot be done if one ``party`` feels aggrieved or becomes more ``fearful of other``. It is also necessary so that such things are not repeated. The question of atonement, I had thought of before but some how that point did not come up for discussion.

End quote

Oh yeah? Hindus have to aone for Babri Masjid? Did Babur atone for anything in his life? Read Baburnama for information. That Indira Gandhi goes to Kabul and pays to clean up that invader`s tomb. She sends matching red sandstone from Rajasthan to renovate the mosque in Lahore. And what do the Islamists do? Send madrassah-educated automatons into India.

Why do I have to atone for Babri Masjid when I was a thousand miles away from it? By the same token, why don`t the Pakis atone for the guilt of every single Muslim sultan of Delhi?

If you want to atone, go get your dick cut off, recite the Kalima and become a Muslim. Then, possibly then, you will be the FIRST Muslim to express even regret, let alone atone, for the millions murdered by the Islamic hordes.

It is blasphemous in Pakistan to try to convert a Muslim. Can we have a law in India banning the conversion of Hindus? No. people like you will be talking about religious freedom. Urstruly would be soon posting about the intolerant Hindus to respond to my posts. That will be like the pot calling the kettle black.

As far as I am concerned, the Pakistanis can join with their brothers in Saudi Afghanistan, keep their women barefoot and pregnant, traffic in opium and heroin, marry 20 women, debate whether it is okay to have sex with 9-year-old girls like some illiterate nomad did in Arabia and do unspeakable things with animals and boys so long as they do it within their borders. They should be forced to wander around with the word `Pakistani` tattooed on their foreheads if they venture out of their country.

Taikonaut, Say with pride, `I am a Pakistani, a product of the fevered brain of that tuberculous Jinnah`. Say with pride, `I am a product of the rape of innocent women by Islamic invaders`. Say with pride, `I grow and sell opium to the world`. Say with pride, `I am a Sunni and I kill Shias and Qadianis`.

Urstruly#

I am an Indian. Before you think too highly of me, let me tell you of some other things. I do believe that Ram temple is an important issue for Hindus. Let me remind you have interacted with me on a different topic where you thought I was always challenging your manhood. In that board I had expressed my point on the Ram temple issue. In that board too you might have felt that I was trying to criticise your religion. I think I still hold all that opinion. Do you still want people like me to take the lead?

Having said that, I also believe that ``atonement`` is necessary as justice cannot be done if one ``party`` feels aggrieved or becomes more ``fearful of other``. It is also necessary so that such things are not repeated. The question of atonement, I had thought of before but some how that point did not come up for discussion.

Having seen your previous posts, I was surprised at your literary piece too (I hope I am not offending you).

I know it is difficult to get a clear picture of other over the web-discussion.

Harimau:

Even if you make a point, or appeal to the sentiments, you destroy that the next minute by name-calling. Aren`t we all a bit too old to believe that name-callig gives us any advantage at all?

Aren`t we old enough to have discussions without these accusations and unnecessary provocation?

I believe Chowk Staff had put up a gentle reminder, and I agree that before hitting the send button, we should go through our post and edit.

your thoughts (and of other people, sorry you`re just the case in point), could have been expressed so much better without you resorting to name-calling, and you would`ve got more support (at least from people like me).

my two cents.
Brat
PS. I apologise to everyone since this is not directly related to discussion at hand.

Harimau:

Even if you make a point, or appeal to the sentiments, you destroy that the next minute by name-calling. Aren`t we all a bit too old to believe that name-callig gives us any advantage at all?

Aren`t we old enough to have discussions without these accusations and unnecessary provocation?

I believe Chowk Staff had put up a gentle reminder, and I agree that before hitting the send button, we should go through our post and edit.

your thoughts (and of other people, sorry you`re just the case in point), could have been expressed so much better without you resorting to name-calling, and you would`ve got more support (at least from people like me).

my two cents.
Brat
PS. I apologise to everyone since this is not directly related to discussion at hand.

Ref Urstruly #: 224

You can read my response to insane-comments below.

Insane-comments is an idiot; don`t get any ideas that these peaceniks will be putting flowers in the barrels of your Kalashnikovs. People like these let the plague of Islam into India and they won`t be allowed to do the same again.

Ref wisecomments #: 223

Perhaps you should change your name to idiotic-comments or inanecomments or, even better, comments-from-the-rear-end.

I suggest you drive up and down the length of North India to see how may temples have been left standing. Then do the same thing in the South and see how many ancient temples there are even in small towns and villages. And then ask the question: what happened to all the temples in the North.

It is exactly people like you with your distorted sense of fairness who drive otherwise fairminded people to vote for the BJP.

North India has been reduced to the condition of Saudi Arabia by the Moghuls whereby no Hindu temples were allowed to remain and Hindus were subjected to the worst form of discrimination. Don`t give me the bullshit about Akbar. He was supposedly the most tolerant of the Moghuls and HIS bones were dragged out from his tomb and disposed of; and this while his dynasty was still in power. That tells you in exactly what regard he was held by his contemporaries. These people destroyed every single temple in North India.

Let me give you the standard Islamic bullshit: What these guys did was against Islam. Islam is a peaceful religion. These are not true Muslims. Well, show me ONE true Muslim then; that is all I ask. Are the true Muslims in power in Afghanistan? Does true Islam preach growing opium and selling heroin to the infidels?

What business has the Aurangzeb mosque right smack against the Krishna temple in Mathura? What business has the Gyan Vapi mosque right next to the Vishwanath temple in Benares? And what business did the Babri Masjid have in Ayodhya? In all of India, Babur couldn`t find any place to build his mosque except Ayodhya? And Aurangzeb couldn`t find a place for his mosques except by appropriating the property of the temples venerated as the birthplace of Krishna or as the center of the universe?

Would these true Muslims permit you to build a temple in, let us say, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan or any other -stans you can think of? How about razing Makkha-sharif and building a temple there? How would the Muslims and their ass-kissing followers like you feel about that idea?

Enough is enough. The BJP asked that the temples at Mathura, Ayodhya and Benares be restored. That demand has now been reduced to just one location: Ayodhya. You don`t have to like it; the Muslims don`t have to like it either; at some point the patience of the Hindus is going to run out and they will take back their property.

Farzana Versey says: let us forget history. Then let them forget the recent history of the destruction of the Babri Masjid. Oh, no; that is not what she means. Let us forget that part of the history where Hindus were treated like dirt in their own homeland by the force of arms. Let us all be nice to the poor Muslims who never did anything to the Hindus. Excuuuuse ME, who was benefiting when Hindu property was being appropriated? Do you mean to tell me Akbar was standing behind a plough and cropped those millions of acres? He had a bunch of invaders and turncoats appointed as zamindars to give him his revenues. These are the same dissolute, opium-smoking, wine-drinking, child-molesters who sold off Bengal to the Clive, paving the way for the British to take over. Read history: the Mahratta empire extended all the way to Delhi. The glorified Moghul emperor was under the thumb of the Mahrattas. Don`t believe me? Look at a map of British India and then ask: who ruled Gwalior, a Mahratta or a Muslim?

Islam is a plague on society at large. India suffered a lot at its hands. If Hindus ask that their religious sensibilities be accorded some measure of recognition, it is time for Indian Muslims to acknowledge that sentiment and respond. The Pakistanis can shove the Babri Masjid up their rear-end brick by brick, as far as I am concerned.

YOU, insane-comments, can be the first slave to some Muslim household. People like you were called eunuchs and were actually castrated so that you don`t screw around with the 300-women harem.

As for the moratorium on building the Ram temple in Ayodhya, how about a ban on building mosques in India? Would that be religious discrimination?

wisecomments#223

Assuming that you are an Indian, it came as a nice surprise. People with ideas like yours should take lead in such discussions and not those who treat the crimes against humanity as dust and try to sweep it under the rug of Secularism.

Very pragmatic.

Thank you

sadna 218#

My 2 cents on Atonement:

1)Take a promise from Advani that he will retire from politics and a promise from BJP that it will stop using the word ``hindutva``. If they like something in Hinduism, they can say that part without using the word. If they mean religious tolerance, use ``religious tolerance``, why use ``Hindutva``.

2)Take a promise from everyone that no other structure temple/mosque will be questioned.

3)Suspend all activities for Ram Temple for next 10 years. Maintain the status quo as it is for 10 years. If BJP mentions ram temple within this 10 years, extend the period to another 10 years.

4)First Build houses for the Muslims in Ayodhya who have suffered a lot. Some Hindu volunteers should serve as servant in their houses for few years.

Actually both parties should be consulted, this is just my idea.

uzmarouf #210

Author did not miss the point. The author says Pakistan has longer history of fundamentalism.

Cut and paste from the article:

``In Pakistan where the dominance of Islamist parties and their control of the national political agenda has a longer and continuous history..``

It might be that Pakistani`s leaders whom you maybe thinking as moderate are really the ``fundamentalist`` author is talking about.

Perhaps your definition of ``fundamentalist`` is different for India than it is for Pakistan.

Egalitarian Brahmin,

Unfortunately I cant go to the Library today but I

will try and present my own view.

The personality of Allama Iqbal is very complex. You people are doing a great job of showing the contradictions of his statements. He was the kind of man who contantly thought and rethought his stance.For example In the 1920s he thought of Jinnah as a WOG, Western Oriented Gentlemen, by 1938 the same detestable wog had become the hope for all Muslims along with Gazi Mustapha Kemal.

However on the issue of what he wanted for the subcontinent, he had spoken to best of my knowledge a greatly autonomous Muslim Power in North West of India and no one can deny that. Allama Iqbal always spoke in terms of Islamic Renaissance, the reinterpretation of Sharia, and the imposition of it in a Modern State. Quite clearly he wanted a Muslim State with Islamic Democracy, an idea which is very complex. His Political ideology is quite clearly stated in

``Reonstruction of Modern Religious Thought`` where he quotes extensively from Zia Golkalp. He especially expounds upon Golkalp`s idea of

``All Muslim states becoming independent and then aligning themselves under the Caliph``. Where as it is unclear whether Iqbal wanted the reinstatement of the Khilafah, because of his intense admiration for Ataturk, but he did want an Independent state for Muslims of India, and he saw that as a transitory step to the Political Unity of the entire Islamic World. In the ``Javed Nama`` he quite clearly is attacking the entire concept of ``Watan``

(country, and the country based Nationalism) and is promoting the idea of Millet(which referred to religious based Nationalism), hence Muslims all over the World are one ``Millet``. So there was no question in Iqbal`s mind of promoting Indian Nationalism over Pan Islamism, as is evident by his Islamic Anthem.

Jinnah, on the other hand, was a staunch Indian Nationalist till late in his life. Even as late as

September 1939 he spoke of bringing the two major

communities Hindu and Muslim together. To him Pakistan was politically inevitable since he could see no resolution with the Congress leadership. Whether to him Pakistan was a bargaining chip or not is a valid inquiry. His speech on 11th August 1947 makes it very clear what he thought of the entire thing when he says,(referring to Hindu Muslim Tension)

``If you ask me this has been the biggest hinderance in India attaining its freedom.Had it not been for this, we would have been free people long ago``.

I am not sure Iqbal would have applauded that statement had he lived. To him Pan Islamism, and hence the transitory Indian Muslim Nationalism was

clearly more important.

I hope my reply helps.

YLH

Ras Siddiqui #206 Khuswant Singh`s write up is more than an opinion - it is calm, objective and mature statement of what the gang of Hindu chauvinists are up to in India; Khushwant Singh provides a broader vision of the implication of the foul act that Advani and the BJP gang are in the process of committing.

This is a time for us in Pakistan to support people like Khushwant Singh by not lowering ourselves to the level of Advani and gang. The best course of action for us Pakistanis is as follows, imho:

a. Do what we can, in whatever way we can, to ensure that Hindu places of worship in Pakistan are respected. This is not only our moral duty as human beings, it is not only enjoined by the Quran (which calls upon muslims to defend all places of worship - the church, the synangogue, the temple and the mosque), it is also good politics to show to the world that Pakistan can stay above the level that the BJP is getting ready to take India into.

b. Write to Vajpayee (does anyone have an email address for this purpose), send him a copy of Khushwant Singh`s letter, and try and get it through his head the stupidity of what his party is about to do.

These are two ideas, and now I gotto rush to the do weights :-)

You said {The author has missed a very important point that the people whom the author calls `Islamist` in pakistan never got political power in Pakistan Whereas in India the government is in the hands of Hindu Singha Parivar. Which contradicts with the authors observation that this fundamentalist Problem is more severe in Pakistan. In india the hindu fundamentalist r not only in central government but in the provincial government which tells how deeply these fundamentalist have reached in the Indian society.}

Would you like India to correct the balance by adopting the Hudood ordinances in their entirety to apply to Muslim women?

Or, would you like India to pass a law banning Muslims from the posts of Prime Minister, President, and Chief Justice of India, to be on a par with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

It is so pathetic to see even intelligent Pakistanis (I am not including you in this category yet because this is the first post of yours I have read and so haven`t had the evidence to form an opinion) consoling themselves by saying that Pakistan hasn`t voted a fundamentalist Islamist yet to the National Assembly. Keep repeating that while those guys flood the country with heroin and opium, start madrassahs all over the country, force the Army to back down on its promise to withdraw the blasphemy law, and there are practically daily shootouts between Shias and Sunnis. Do you guys plan to wake up from your dream or is this an opium-induced hallucination that all is well in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan?

correction
`` If such a temple is to be built, a huge measure of atonement must precede it(though NECESSARILY INADEQUATE) or it will continue to take lives and like Mr Singh says, will signify hatred rather than respect for Ram. ``

ahmadb #214
I am no supporter of Advani and am no supporter of ANY Mandir being built as a political movement. I have written about the Rath Yatra on previous occasions, I have written on the irony(or hypocrisy) of Advani now calling for communal harmony in his capacity as Home Minister.

Re the Ram Mandir, I have said before on chowk, it will be a dire disrespect to Ram to build a temple whose foundations are already soaked in the blood of innocents. If such a temple is to be built, a huge measure of atonement must precede it(though adequate) or it will continue to take lives and like Mr Singh says, will signify hatred rather than respect for Ram.


What I take objection to is your implication that even contemplating or discussing building a temple is as much of an injustice as demolition of the original temple or the much more potent and unjustified destruction of the mosque.

What I take objection to on chowk is that every opinion expressed from across the border seems to finally imply that Indians/Hindus cannot live and breathe and prosper like normal human beings and feel free to express their religious sentiments in even traditional events like the the Kumbh Mela without being worthy of the worst epithets and without being referred to as `fascists` out to exterminate others. You might call that reasonable and rational, I donot.

Alluding to the real lives lost in India due to armed jehadis or reference to schools turning out fighting machines or the statements of war against infidels by the only people allowed to express themselves freely in Pakistan is called `negative propaganda` against Islam and Pakistan. But discussing building a temple is `no respect for the rights of human beings who belong to the ``other`` religions```

Some express these sentiments unambigously, touting it as their `moral` or `religous` duty, some are more polished in their put downs.

With regard to interactions on chowk, I am very happy to meet fellow human beings I would not have had the privilege of exchanging ideas with otherwise and very happy to appreciate the talents, wits and knowledge of many interesting intelligent people.

Having lived in a multicultural and multireligious environment, full of potential for strife which didnot materialise due to determined efforts of many at many levels, social, political at mutual respect and accomodation I was rather naive in my assumptions previous to exposure on chowk. I now have a greater acquaintance with unreasoning hatred than I really need.

Sadhana

In response to shankar (Reply # 212)
Dear Shankar:

Your statement: “I think the biggest inadvertent allies of the RSS are the fundo counterparts in Pakistan. The more they interfere in India`s communal problems, the stronger the RSS gets.”

My reply: I tend to agree with you. However, this goes both ways. A lot of Pakistan’s problem are a product of the nature of India-Pakistan relations, as developed during the past 53 years.

Your statement: “With all due respect, contributers on Chowk (Indians & Pakistanis alike) cant do a damn thing to change what they dont like in the countries. Griping about it on Chowk or writing letters to editors in newspapers doesnt rectify situations in the real world.”

My reply: I don’t agree with you. Our efforts may not affect directly, they definitely work indirectly (particularly through public opinion formation). Despite all limitations, public opinion does make a difference in some critical moments.

Your comment: “. . . unless you go back to Pakistan & become an activist or join politics & change the system from within, I`m afraid all your opinions will not make an iota of difference in the real world.”

My reply: The freedom of press (and internet) has made a noteworthy difference on the consciousness level of the (interested) people and the nature of governmental response in Pakistan. Pakistani people have to go a long way still. Can you tell me why we have some sort of Lifafa (envelope) journalism in Pakistan?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Prem #211

I think minorities or suppressed people need to assert themselves in every forum including militancy. That is the lesson we have learned so far in our country.

Shankar #212

Although it might not make a difference in our countries, but it is probably leading to more opening of minds (as you said in your posts before).

And who comes here to correct their country. We have no better thing to do which does not harm us personally.:-) And where we can meet people without etiquette. I don`t know about India. But in Pakistan, a child is born with ``Naraa``(slogan) on his lips and Politics in his head and you will agree that in this big cyberworld, few forums will be like this.

In response to sadna (Reply # 208)
Dear Sadhna:

My post was in reaction to Khushwant Singh’s piece. The issue of the building of the Ram Mandir cannot be delinked with the destruction of Babri Masjid and with the short and long-term agenda of the Sangh Privar (and the Hindutva movement). What Khushwant Singh is resisting is not merely the building of the Ram Mandir. He is, in my view, resisting the Hindutva and its consequences on communal relations within and outside India.

Given that Baber engaged in an unjust act, the Sangh Privar want to rectify an unjust act by another unjust act (especially in a period when foreign invasions of the kind India experienced in her past have become an impossibility).

When I said that it is “. . . shameful that ilks of Advani and Noorani and their equally ignorant followers have no respect for the rights of human beings who belong to the ``other`` religions,`` I was not talking about the construction of the Ram Mandir. I was talking about the politicization of religious sentiments, the destruction of places of worship, and the immense and irreplaceable loss of human life (and property). What is so wrong about it? As far as the construction of Ram Mandir is concerned, I am sure Ram himself would not have appreciated and approved such a construction – that is based on hatred, injustice, and bloodshed.

The question of the consent of the Muslim community is not so important at present. Such a consent, if this place is really Ram’s Janambhumi, should have been politically and persuasively sought before the Rath Yatra, the destruction of Babri Masjid, and the bloodshed of thousands of innocent (and not so innocent) human beings from both religious communities. Are you sure that the present Home Minister of India – the Honorable Mr. L. K. Advani – has never violated the rights of human beings in India?

My post was not one-sided. I deplored the actions of both Advani and Noorani and their followers (in the case of Ayodhya and Multan). Rather than supporting my appreciation of Khushwant Singh, you ask: “What restitution have Pakistani authorities offered for destroying Hindu temples in Pakistan, may I ask.” I think, we need to fight individually and collectively against all kinds of transgression in both India and Pakistan (and elsewhere too).

You also have difficulty with my statement: ``It is also deplorable that learned/educated contributors on the Chowk are not even making a minimum effort to rectify the situation.`` I wonder, why? Is it not true that the many Chowk contributors are using every available opportunity to incite rather than quell India-Pakistan and Hindu-Muslim tensions. Let me ask you a simple question: Have you after so much interaction on the Chowk developed a more positive feeling for Pakistan? Have you become more sensitive to the need for peaceful coexistence between the Indians and Pakistanis? Have you developed a better appreciation of the plights (whatever it means) of the Muslims in India?

Your statement: “Let me express my own feelings. Its extremely deplorable that the learned contributors to chowk have done nothing about the apartheid practised against minorities in their own country to the extent that the word `Hindu` or `Christian` is used as an insult on this board.”

My reply: Please read carefully. Your statement is one-sided. It is partially accurate/inaccurate. I must inform you that some of us (Pakistanis) are extremely hard on our state and society, despite the fact that we still are not a democracy. Can you really appreciate the kind of courage we are showing?

Sadhna, we educated and fortunate people of India and Pakistan need to rise above all kinds of narrowism (this is a general comment).

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

RDesikan #203

Good to know that at least you know the definition.

Keep remembering it.

Bilalji,

I agree with you that the BJP/RSS is a dangerous right wing bigotted organisation. I believe they will never get an absolute majority in the Govt because a majority of hindus dont believe in a hindu rashtra. They`re reigned in by coalition parties who ensure they dont get too big for their britches.

When Vajpayee recently made those ridiculous remarks in the Lok Sabha, the opposition & their coalition allies slammed him good in parliament. Who do you think demanded an apology for his comments about the Ram Mandir? There were all hindus!

I think the biggest inadvertent allies of the RSS are the fundo counterparts in Pakistan. The more they interfere in India`s communal problems, the stronger the RSS gets.

{{It is also deplorable that learned/educated contributors on the Chowk are not even making a minimum effort to rectify the situation.}}

With all due respect, contributers on Chowk (Indians & Pakistanis alike) cant do a damn thing to change what they dont like in the countries. Griping about it on Chowk or writing letters to editors in newspapers doesnt rectify situations in the real world.

Your attempts to criticise what is happening in Pakistan is commendable. It encourages healthy debate & makes readers on Chowk better for it. However, unless you go back to Pakistan & become an activist or join politics & change the system from within, I`m afraid all your opinions will not make an iota of difference in the real world.

bahmad #200

Isn`t that the biggest tragedy facing Mohajirs? Without being an expert on the issue, it seems to me that they were amongst the biggest losers of the whole sorry mess. They sacrificed the most to create an independent nation, and then failed to find full acceptance in that new nation. Why? Probably, there was enough fault to go around. But, certainly the politics of confrontation didn`t help matters. They are a great people who just didn`t get great leadership, which was the need of the hour. And Lord knows, they have suffered.

Minorities everywhere (except perhaps in Afghanistan!) need to be proactive. Not proactive in the sense of being ready to cry murder every two minutes, but in working with the bulk of the majority to shape the future as they and the majority can live with. This is not to let the majority off the hook but to be both realistic and fair. We do not live in Utopias and neither should be hanker after them. Politics of confrontation are seductive, and have their uses, but their limits are real.

The author has missed a very important point that the people whom the author calls `Islamist` in pakistan never got political power in Pakistan Whereas in India the government is in the hands of Hindu Singha Parivar. Which contradicts with the authors observation that this fundamentalist Problem is more severe in Pakistan. In india the hindu fundamentalist r not only in central government but in the provincial government which tells how deeply these fundamentalist have reached in the Indian society.

ahmadb #207
`` It is shameful that ilks of Advani and Noorani and their equally ignorant followers have no respect for the rights of human beings who belong to the ``other`` religions.``

This is an interesting statement, given that the temple is merely being debated and not built. I wonder why its not allowable to debate building a temple and whether you have any knowledge of the issue, whether it is indeed going to be built at all, and if at all on the site of the demolished mosque and if such a thing is even contemplated without the agreement from the Muslim community. Or are you accusing the Home Minister of India of suspending human rights?

What restitution have Pakistani authorities offered for destroying Hindu temples in Pakistan, may I ask.

``It is also deplorable that learned/educated contributors on the Chowk are not even making a minimum effort to rectify the situation.``

I am surprised to see you answering for the activites of every chowkwallah. For every other assertion you demand references and authorities, I have observed.

Let me express my own feelings. Its extremely deplorable that the learned contributers to chowk have done nothing about the apartheid practised against minorities in their own country to the extent that the word `Hindu` or `Christian` is used as an insult on this board.

Either I need a vacation from chowk or you do.
Sadhana

In response to Ras Siddiqui (Reply # 206)
Dear Ras:

It is shameful that ilks of Advani and Noorani and their equally ignorant followers have no respect for the rights of human beings who belong to the ``other`` religions.

It is also deplorable that learned/educated contributors on the Chowk are not even making a minimum effort to rectify the situation. I am, however, glad that there still are people like Khushwant Singh who courageously use their feedom to express themselves.

I applaude Khushwant Singh for providing resistence to the mindless politicians who politicize religious/communal feelings for their short-term personal gains but for short and long-term collective losses. Such politicians and their followers don`t really know what they are doing.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

From The Hindustan Times Opinion section today:

With malice towards one and all: Monument to hatred
By
Khushwant Singh

OUR PRIME Minister tells us that the construction of the Ram mandir on the site of the Babri masjid destroyed by some colleagues in his Government remains as yet an unfulfilled national agenda. That, of course, is arrent nonsense. No consensus on the issue was sought, nor does it reflect national sentiment.

His Home Minister L.K. Advani played the stellar role in the tragic drama by organising the rath yatra from Somnath to Ayodhya and stands charged for this criminality. In an interview with Prannoy Roy of Star TV, he admitted that the breaking of the mosque was “a terrible mistake” and “a failure of the BJP and Sangh parivar”. In the same breath, he said that the breaking of the mosque should not be confused with the “Ayodhya movement”. Pray, what exactly is the “Ayodhya movement” if it is not building a Ram mandir on the debris of the destroyed mosque? It is time Advani stopped bamboozling us with verbal jugglery and spoke to us in a language which would tell us in clear terms of what he has in mind.

An important member of the parivar, the VHP, is going ahead with plans to erect the Ram mandir on the disputed site. Stone pillars have been chiselled and are ready to be erected. It has announced that no matter what the Government thinks or the Supreme Court decides, erection of the mandir will go ahead as soon as sants give the green signal. A model of the temple will be on display at the Kumbh-mela to whip up Hindu religious emotions and further foul the communal atmosphere.

I realise that reasoning with them is of no avail. I now turn to pleading. Do you realise the long-term consequences of building a temple on the ruins of a mosque? We have not yet forgiven foreign invaders who destroyed temples to build mosques. Do you think future generations of secular-minded Indians, particularly Indian Muslims, will forgive you for indulging in the same kind of barbaric vandalism as was practised in the Middle Ages?

What sanctity will such a temple have? People who come to worship there will be those who hate the memory of Babur more than the love of Sri Ram. It will be a running sore for centuries to come.

Re: Dost Mittar #193

It wasn`t just the Hindus who felt that nothing much was going to happen during Partition. My grandfather, God rest his simple soul, had a fair bit of land in East Punjab and in June or July of 1947 he was approached by the relatives of a Sikh friend of his. They had a fair bit of land outside Rawalpindi and they proposed doing a straight swap since they were sure that the non-Muslims were to be ethnically cleansed from Muslim majority areas and Muslims were to be ethnically-cleansed from Muslim-minority areas. I believe they already had the patwaris well-bribed to expedite the land-transfer at both ends.

My grandfather, since their land was worth more than his and he was sure that nothing much was going to happen during Partition, demurred. As it turned out, my father`s family was one of the lucky ones since a cousin of his was in the Army and diverted a small Army convoy that he was commanding to their village. They had two hours to pack their valuables and get on the trucks. I believe some of the families traded most of their non-movable property for a truck/bus from a Sikh family as well. Some of the Muslims stayed behind. I have no idea what happened to those families. My father has other relatives that never made it out, but as he says, his family was among the lucky ones.

No one that I know of in my extended family bears any particular hatred for the Sikhs/Hindus of the Punjab although, understandably, they loath Nehru, Patel and the Congress Party. But, as you said, this is all ancient history and has no particular bearing on matters today. We have a different set of hatreds going now.

Regards.

Ahmadb # 200

“If the Indian Muslims want to live happily and peacefully, they definitely need to educate themselves and engage in a politics of mutuality with other religious and non-religious groups. And above all, they need to put a check on the outdated rhetoric of their leaders”

I agree with you totally. The leaders of the old school have failed and should make way for a new leadership. The new leadership should be Indian leaders not Muslim, Sikh, Christian, Hindu leaders.

“If the majority of Indians believe in a secular Indian state, there is still much hope for reconciliation, peaceful communal existence, and prioritization of citizenship and human rights. Indian Muslims need to take advantage of the situation. I am a bit concerned about the long-term aims and objectives of the Sangh Privar”

There will always be a extreme right wing fringe, they are there in every society in every country. They will continue to attract some people, the question is how do you rein in these so called caretakers of the faith/ morality. You have to make sure they do no wield unconstitutional power without any accountability. I am not sure of the long term objectives of the Sangh Parivar , in my opinion they are an extremely myopic organization.

“Why the idea of migration should ever come to your mind?”

This was in response to Ali’s statement of muslims being left behind in India.

“I am glad that you feel yourself better-off in India. There are a lot of Pakistanis (Mohajirs) included who consider themselves much better-off in Pakistan”

I am happy for them.

“In Pakistan, the Mohajirs have suffered immensely because they also engaged in a politics of confrontation (without much local, regional and national support). A unified movement of all people of Karachi (with support from all over Pakistan, wherever possible) would have brought much better results. This I believe is the ABC of Pakistani politics that Altaf Husain failed to understand.”

The only winner here is Altaf Hussain & co. He has a assured political base in spite of no results. It has also been a case of bad public relations by the Mohajirs, they never managed to convince other Pakistani’s of the contributions they made to Pakistani society.

Re Krashid

I know the definitions, but was eager to get your personal read since you`ve misused the phrases. Damn likely you don`t even know them yourself.

Re Ali1

The way you`re going, you could be appointed the next spokesbeard for the Lashkar. Your hatred for all things Indian is soooooooo amusing.

RDesikan #188

Sorry, I cannot grant your wishes.

Look in Encyclopedia Brittanica to see the definition.

If you want to see the action visit India.

Gymnosophist #194

Yes please tell me about those Mizo and Bhutanese and Manipur and assamese etc although I already know what you will write.

There are many people in the world who have ready made answer like a knee jerk reaction.

I am not a bit surprised at your posts.

Do you still believe that Marxist should not starve with Indians, but Koreans.

I asked this because you never mentioned that Marxist Chief Ministers also starve in India. So electing them is a moot question for this discussion. Or you elect them to decrease their starvation.

In response to Faruk (Reply # 195)
Dear Faruk:

Your statement: “Indian Muslims have their problems like various communities in India. They are free to find solutions to their problems. The strategy adopted by the Indian Muslim leaders has been one of confrontation with the majority. Such a strategy has never worked for any minority anywhere in the world, I don’t understand why they feel India will be an exception.”

My reply: Perhaps there is no country in the world without some sort of difficulties. I agree with you that a strategy of confrontation must be avoided (as much as possible). If the Indian Muslims want to live happily and peacefully, they definitely need to educate themselves and engage in a politics of mutuality with other religious and non-religious groups. And above all, they need to put a check on the outdated rhetoric of their leaders.

Your statement: “A better approach would be to work with the majority. India is a secular nation because the hindu majority wanted it to be secular and still does.”

My reply: If the majority of Indians believe in a secular Indian state, there is still much hope for reconciliation, peaceful communal existence, and prioritization of citizenship and human rights. Indian Muslims need to take advantage of the situation. I am a bit concerned about the long-term aims and objectives of the Sangh Privar.

Your statement: “A lot of the Indian Muslims like me do not think it would have been a good decision to migrate to Pakistan.”

My reply: Why the idea of migration should ever come to your mind? Aren’t you a citizen of India?

Your statement: “ We believe that we are better off in India. We look at the plight of the Mohajirs and the feeling is reinforced. I am not implying that the Mohajirs are not to blame for their situation but they are not the only ones to blame.”

My reply: I am glad that you feel yourself better-off in India. There are a lot of Pakistanis (Mohajirs) included who consider themselves much better-off in Pakistan. In Pakistan, the Mohajirs have suffered immensely because they also engaged in a politics of confrontation (without much local, regional and national support). A unified movement of all people of Karachi (with support from all over Pakistan, wherever possible) would have brought much better results. This I believe is the ABC of Pakistani politics that Altaf Husain failed to understand.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Hey Ali1,

I bet youre saying Faruk is really a hindu, who poses as an Indian muslim on Chowk.

After all, how can any self respecting Indian muslim even dare say what you so fondly believe is hindu propaganda?

Man, the treachery of these hindus is unbelievable!

Ref ali1 #: 191

You quoted {``Comparison of the Iyers with other Indian and world populations revealed that Iyers form a distinct branch of the Indo-European and Central Asian tree.``}

Now, how about running around to find a biologist who will prove your descent from a camel?

Ref ali1 #: 191

You said {Actually, Tamil Brahmin boys with their noble Caucasian lineage and wobbly necks are not such a bad idea. eh?}

You mean you are getting no takers at the gay bars either?

Ali : various posts



Indian Muslims have their problems like various communities in India. They are free to find solutions to their problems. The strategy adopted by the Indian Muslim leaders has been one of confrontation with the majority. Such a strategy has never worked for any minority anywhere in the world, I don’t understand why they feel India will be an exception. A better approach would be to work with the majority. India is a secular nation because the hindu majority wanted it to be secular and still does.

A lot of the Indian muslims like me do not think it would have been a good decision to migrate to Pakistan. We believe that we are better off in India. We look at the plight of the mohajirs and the feeling is reinforced. I am not implying that the mohajirs are not to blame for their situation but they are not the only ones to blame.

Regards,

Faruk.

gymno-

{{As Solitude is fond of pointing out, Islam is a misogynistic religion but this is taking hatred of women too far!}}

That was hitting below the belt; but I gotta admit I laughed out loud!

Ref krashid #: 183

I forgot to add.

Capable Muslims become Chief Ministers of important states (Abdul Rahman Antulay in Maharashtra and Barkhatulla Khan in Rajasthan, both of them Muslim-minority states). They also get Central government posts. Some of them get to be Air Chief Marshal in the Indian Air Force or Lieutenant Generals in the Indian Army. And to be the Chief Scientific Advisor to the Government of India. In addition to becoming Presidents, Chief Justices of the Supreme Court, and Justices of various state high courts. These gentlemen were not bitching and moaning about the injustices they faced in India. They merely got an education and did the very best they could in their jobs so they couldn`t be sidelined when their time came.

They don`t get hanged (though that thug Bhutto deserved it) or sent into exile.

Thanks for asking.

Please let me know if you have got questions about Nagas, Mizos, Tamils, Sikkimese or any other minorites that are being wronged by India in your imagination.

RE Desikan:

While you and your compatriots can go about insulting other people`s sensibilities, no one should take a dig at you. Touchy, aren`t we?

RE: gymnosophist # 189

[``Yeah; start your own.

But just one word of advice: import girls, not boys``]

Actually, Tamil Brahmin boys with their noble Caucasian lineage and wobbly necks are not such a bad idea. eh?

``Comparison of the Iyers with other Indian and world populations revealed that Iyers form a distinct branch of the Indo-European and Central Asian tree.``

HLA affinities of Iyers, a Brahmin population of Tamil Nadu, South India,` K. Balakrishnan et. al. (Unit of Immunogenetics, School of Biological Sciences, Madurai Kamaraj University, Madurai, India ) Human Biology. 68 (4) pp. 523-37, August, 1996

Ref krashid #: 183

You asked {Suppose those Marxists do not leave India of their FREE will.

Do you plan to make their life so miserable so they have to forego their philosophy or leave India out of FREE will.}

No. On the other hand, we elect them to the position of Chief Minister in states such as West Bengal, Kerala and Tripura.

Thanks for asking.

Ref ali1 #: 180

You said {Recognizing that I have a poor grasp of English, drove all the way to Berkeley California to the renowned ESL institute: Lakireddy School of ESL, the one favored by the Indian community not just here but back in Andhra as well but found it closed!

Any recommendations?}

Yeah; start your own.

But just one word of advice: import girls, not boys.

(This advice is based on Sir Richard Francis Burton`s report to the Government of India back in 1857 that said he found brothels in Karachi employing a total of 4000 boys.)

As Solitude is fond of pointing out, Islam is a misogynistic religion but this is taking hatred of women too far!

ReAli1

Apparently, you seem to have consumed too much of the prime Afghan cash crop.

so when you can`t make a point, you have to insult people and their ethnicity. What a coward!

Re Krashid

You still are evading my question: How do you define fascism and marxism?

Ali1,

I detect an excitement and glee in your voice at the prospect of Muslim persecution (and ``bloodbath`` )in India.... in fact nothing would make you happier than to see that happen.

You couldnt care less about the Muslims in India.

So I guess I can add necrophilia to the list of things that make you drool, next to wiping the rig-veda in dog s *it.

Such a subtle mind.......

regards

Harpreet

Ahmed B 3169

On which part of article you want us to comment, which is giving the solution to myriads of problems faced by Pakistan on intuition.

Ironically if intuition by army was of any value our 93,000 ``Jarri Jawan`` would not be prisoners of wars.

RE: gymnosophist....ESL:

Recognizing that I have a poor grasp of English, drove all the way to Berkeley California to the renowned ESL institute: Lakireddy School of ESL, the one favored by the Indian community not just here but back in Andhra as well but found it closed!

Any recommendations?

RDesikan #

My post is in English and very simple language.

Gymnosophist #177

Suppose those Marxists do not leave India of their FREE will.

Do you plan to make their life so miserable so they have to forego their philosophy or leave India out of FREE will.

fairdinkum re (#170):

Mate, I don`t quite understand your gripe with the retired commodore`s letter (#169). His thesis is quite sound, and one can hardly fault him for wanting to secure a secure future for his offsrping. And I didn`t see in his message a plea to the amin-ul-momineen to rise either-- just an call to rturn to good basic values.

Or am I really too naive? :-)

regards,

P

RE: Desikan # 176

[``I am amused by your so-called interest in the plight of Indian muslims. ``]

But I am not amused by you total dis-regard of their plight.

[``Yes, there are more of them in India than in your country--which must say something..``]

It says that they are breeding faster. Don`t you think you`ll be living in the Islamic republic of India 30 years from now? I hope Mrs. Desikan likes the burqa!

[``The fact that they stayed behind versus your cleansing of minorities the time of partition says something, doesn`t it? ``]

It says that Nehru et. al. were glib liars who conned them into staying in the slaughter house. It also says that you have learnt your history from a RSS sponsored school. Now shake your Tamil Brahmin head from left to right and repeat after me: More muslims were killed, maimed and raped in Gurdaspur and Ferozpur districts alone than all the non-muslims combined in the whole of Pakistan.

[``As Thaker pointed out, the fact that Indian muslims can voice their opinions against Indian govt. policies says something about a free press and the right of minorities. Every group in India has its gripes and they also have the fora to express them.``]

As Thaker didn`t point out, expressing the gripes has done the minorities little good so far, much like the pleading of the bakra when he sees the knife!!

RE: gymnosophist....ESL:

Recognizing that I have a poor grasp of English, drove all the way to Berkeley California to the renowned ESL institute: Lakireddy School of ESL, the one favored by the Indian community not just here but back in Andhra as well but found it closed!

Any recommendations?

WHY DO WE NEED A STATE TO INSTITUTIONALIZE THE WORD OF GOD?

The following editorial is a moderate critique of the role of the State in religious matters.

What can we learn from the experience of those countries where a separation between state and religion is maintained?

Should Pakistan be predominantly a Muslim society (by choice) or should it be theocratic state? Can we adopt a middle ground? If no, why not?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

The Nation, Editorial, January 11, 2000
Islamic Council`s advice

PRESIDENT Rafiq Tarar, and the Chairman of the Islamic Ideology Council, Dr Sher Muhammad Zaman, while speaking at a Council`s meeting, focused on the advisability of fashioning our lives on the tenets of Islam, and pointed to some of the failures of the past governments in observing them. Dr. Zaman in particular referred to the decision of Mian Nawaz Sharif`s government to freeze the foreign currency accounts of the expatriates and others as violative of the principle of trust that is a part of the Islamic teachings. He asked the government to apologise to the account holders and make amends to them. At a personal level the violation of the rights of women, who are denied their share of the property and are killed in the name of honour, both being condoned by some sections of our society, was denounced by Dr Zaman. Islam, he rightly pointed out, gave special protection to the rights of women and the minorities. The failure of the law and order machinery of the country to provide that, ought to have been taken serious note of by the government. He was also critical of the print media and the electronic media for what he called the spread of obscenity. He chose not to specify any specific instances to illustrate that but one assumes that he may have had pictures of women in scanty dresses that some newspapers may have carried or such roles of women in TV programmes that in his view have reflected their negative image. While we generally agree with him about the desirability of our media observing the cultural norms of the society, the definition of obscenity sometimes tends to be more personal than objective. As social norms keep changing with time, certain modes of dress which were found improper at one time, start becoming the norm. That does not mean that these are violative of Islam. What is important is that the spirit of Islam should be understood and followed and not a society`s outward trappings.

While one can defend Dr Zaman`s comments on these issues, subject of course to minor modifications, it becomes harder to do so when he talks about such issues as of the Council`s role in the legislative field, education of the lawyers, imposition of taxes and declaring Friday as a holiday. Taking the last point first, declaring Friday as a holiday has apparently no religious significance. Even on Jumatul Wida, there is a consensus among Muslim scholars that there is no special sanctity attached to it. Saying that some Muslim countries observe Friday as a holiday, is no argument. Each country has to consider its own convenience and economic advantage in that. Teaching Arabic to lawyers may be desirable, but hardly necessary, as all Arabic texts are available in English. As to binding the Parliament to submit all legislation to the Council, it is hard to understand. It clearly impinges on the Parliament`s sovereignty. In saying all this what needs to be remembered is that what is Islamic and what is not, is not the prerogative of the Council but of our courts. Pakistan was never meant to be a theocracy by its founding fathers where a certain group or institution have supra-constitutional veto-power over statecraft. The principles of Ijtehad and Ijma are reflected by our Parliament and not by the Council.

Re Ali1

More evidence of the injustices meted out to your coreligionists--in the latest India Today. Should get your BP extra high to hear about this recent injustice. Ha ha

......

You could never believe Mirza Asadullah Beg Khan, aka Mirza Ghalib (no self-respecting Urdu poet is ever without a nom de plume), lived here. The 250 sq yard dwelling in Ballimaran, an architecturally mutating cluster in Delhi`s historical Chandni Chowk, has the facade of an upstart townhouse with spindly, post-1980s balusters and neo-Moorish brickwork from a prosperous factory in Haryana. But what would have definitely pleased the famed 19th century poet (1797-1869) is the decision of the Delhi Government`s Department of Archaeology to partially salvage the insulted structure (previously used as a coal dump), restore some of its original sections and finally throw it open to the public as it did last week.



Merajuddin`s STD booth and a portion of the restored courtyard



The arched entrance to the house is the same as the one used by Ghalib when he lived here as a tenant during the last four years of his life. So are some of the arches and pillars in the foreshortened courtyard and in one of the rooms towards the right of the entrance. But Ghalib`s bedroom on the first floor, where the master wrote some occasional ghazals and some pro-British panegyrics (he was disturbed by their use of violence but generally favoured their rule), has yet to be acquired by the Government.

That`s the other story. Merajuddin, who runs an std booth in the condensed courtyard and whose family has been tenants since 1910 and owners since 1962 after the government sold them the property for just Rs 22,000 (the original owners, the family of Hakim Mehmood Khan, left during the Partition) claim that the compensation they got for giving a portion of the house, Rs 6 lakh, was inadequate. ``That section is worth over a crore,`` he says ``and if the Government had to take it away from us why did it sell it to us in the first place?``

Point. That`s the Indian Government for you. But at least there`s some effort to correct the foolish boners of the past and mend a truncated heritage. There are about a thousand more to go.

Ref krashid

You said {Just to point out that anybody not believing in certain philosophy, is free to leave India.}

The operative word os `free`. They are not FORCED to leave India, unlike the Pandits of Kashmir Valley.

Actually, I myself have exercised the freedom and have been living in the US for years. So, I have all the rights to suggest to others to exercise the freedom of travel guaranteed by the Indian constitution. It would be hypocritical of me to tell them to stay in India and endure whatever is unendurable for them.

This freedom to travel is not obtained in the Islamic Republic of Iran, the former Soviet Union and its satellite Eastern European countries when they were Coomunist-ruled , North Korea or China because they all require(d) an exit visa for a resident to leave the country. In India, not only are the Farzana Verseys allowed to say what they want, they can continue to live in peace without midnight raids by the minions of elected dictators with `heavy mandate` or self-appointed Chief Executives. After shouting from the rooftops (and getting themselves published for years in a metropolitan newspaper) if some people do not still like the country because they have not been able to change it, they are free to leave. Nobody deports them from India or exiles them to Saudi Arabia.

From what I have heard so far, Ms. Farzana Versey hasn`t made a beeline to the Pakistan High Commission for a visa. So much for Jinnah`s dreams!

Re Ali1

I am amused by your so-called interest in the plight of Indian muslims. Yes, there are more of them in India than in your country--which must say something about the success of Mr. Jinnah`s message and the so-called pull of pakistan at the time of partition. The fact that they stayed behind versus your cleansing of minorities the time of partition says something, doesn`t it? If you were so moved, your country should have arranged for more of them to migrate as Israel continues to do. But then you still have those poor Biharis left behind in the former East Pakistan, don`t you.

I do not follow the Indian muslim media because I cannot understand urdu let alone read hindi--and also for the fact that because if I did, I would also have to read the newspapers of every other minority as India is an amalgam of cultures, languages and religions.

As Thaker pointed out, the fact that Indian muslims can voice their opinions against Indian govt. policies says something about a free press and the right of minorities. Every group in India has its gripes and they also have the fora to express them.

Krashid

I initially thought that it was your language skills that were seriously flawed--and so I gave you the benefit of doubt, but in trying to read your babbleathons, it`s apparent that the problem is not just your language, but your stilted logic.

What is your definition of marxism and fascism? That might help sort out some of the confusion.

urstruly #142 ``DO AMERICANS NEED INDIA (ANYMORE)``

The question is: Do we Pakistanis need India? And the answer is: More than anyone else, hard though it may be for you to believe.

We need India to understand that we are good enough to have democracy; that people of different religions can live fairly peacefully together (Babri masjid and the hindutvas are indications of problems, but I dont think they represent the over-all reality); and we need India because it is there, with all the rich history we share with it.

And Americans need India too. For many reasons, not the least being the same reason that we all need one another: as occupants of a lonely boat in a vast sea who need one another to keep the boat from capsizing and to keep moving in whatever direction mankind is destined to move.

Gymnosophist #163

Take the advise of your friend RDesikan.

Because this post only affirmed my previous impression.

Just to point out that anybody not believing in certain philosophy, is free to leave India.

RDesikan #164

I clearly said that a person propagating that Marxist should leave India for Korea on the premise that Marxism has failed is fascist.

If you think majority of Indians have such belief, then majority of Indian are fascist.

And incidently, the Marxist who are Indian do not fall in this category with this hypothesis in mind but are a victim of fascism.

You can say that, some of the people in India are victims of Fascism by other Indians.

RSaxena Bajpan Mein Sunaa Thaa.

Aik aur Aik Giyara (Igara) Hote Hain.

Itna Soz Kahan Se aa Gaya Aap Ki Awaaz Mein.

Kiya Raat Bhar Rote Rahein Hein.

If you don`t understand and want to know the translation, let me know.

ahmadb #169

I must admit that I am not surprised by the fact that the retired commodore feels at sea when he thinks about social/national issues which are beyond the confines of retirement benefits, land, subsidized business schemes, Defence Housing Society Schemes, and quota (in various educational institutions and jobs) for his children.

His cry for an Ameer-ul-momineen to rise and lead Pakistanis to salvation is the peak of eloquence and imagination for a military mind…. The more I read these retired military officers, the more I am convinced that the only place where they can be of some use is military barracks. How about these retired military officers getting together to do something about the frequent military interventions in Pakistan? They could form an organization, which focuses on character building of soldiers (especially officers) so that they remain loyal to Pakistani people and perform their duty with due diligence and care. But hey, even in retirement they have to interfere in civil/political affairs. Why can’t they leave us alone?

A GENERAL’S INTUITION!

It is remarkable that a good number of retired military officers are currently trying to come to grips with issues concerning Pakistani (state and) civil society. How qualified are they? How do they analyze the issues? What kind of solutions do they provide? Please read the following letter to the Editor, as a window.

This letter calls for the importance of ideology, the inadequacy of accumulated wealth, the need for new ways of thinking (and intellectual wealth), Islam as a solution, and someone to act as a guide. Comments welcome.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Positive thinking for progress
Commodore (R) Muhammad Arif Qureshi
Dawn, Letter, January 10, 2001

“IF we are not sure of where we are going we are likely to end up elsewhere and not even know where. To prevent this happening at the national level, nations anchor themselves to a central core of basic values, normally referred to as ideology.

Sages have time and again reasoned that materialistic things are in themselves of no value in the shaping of a society or the defining of its objectives. They are merely tools they say, which may be used for a particular purpose, that purpose being decided by the thoughts and ideas of the people who own the tools. If the thoughts are absent, or unproductive, so too will be the tools.

Accordingly, we see multitude of young men with university degrees waiting on tables, immense worth of resources being squandered and plundered, and vast services and arsenals of weapons sitting idly. Realisation is now dawning that increasing any of these areas on its own will achieve nothing.

A cursory glance through the pages of history may well set our perceptions right. Generally nations that have risen to prominence have not transformed themselves after any materialistic innovation, or the discovery of wealth, or for any other reason than the absorption of an entirely fresh way of thinking. This way of thinking whether it was right or wrong led them to their respective end. A fresh power of thought gives the people an objective in their life, and also establishes for them a reference point for solving all problems. It sets direction and consequently energizes activity.

Our country, which is proceeding with no direction, nor ability to progress, bringing reactionary improvised solutions to the issues confronting us, we direly need a comprehensive thought and a productive way of thinking which should provide the driving force for all our actions.

Having been born at around the time of the creation of our country I have in a sense grown with it. Now in my mid-fifties I am befuddled about the progress if any which we have made. During my life span I have accumulated some material prosperity but contentment I have not. So I wonder can material affluence replace intellectual wealth? If not then where does the solution lie? What are we leaving behind for our children? Debt, corruption, decadent morality - in sum total, a way of life, which even the devil would be hard pressed to engender. Islam, my intuition counsels me, is the solution.

But the robes of Islam we all individuals in our self-arrogance are donning does not shimmer of the reflection of the shining body armour our Book so relates it to be. Is there anyone around from amongst us to guide us? “

Re: gymno

You are wasting your energy trying to reason with krashid. He usually doesn`t understand what you write (the ESL problem again) and even when he does, his religious obsessions get the best of him. A perfect example was a recent Chowk discussion on lack of scientific progress in South Asia / Asia in the past millenium....Krashid buzzes around trying to make sense of it all and then jumps in with some inane twist about ``why did Muslims not succeed at so and so...``

Ref ylh #: 165

You said {Two books I want to suggest to my friends at Chowk...}

And they are not Hodson or Wolpert? Wow!

Anyway, where is that summary of Hodson on Junagadh-Hyderabad-Kashmir?

In response to Fuzair (Reply # 162)
Dear Fuzair:

I have been away from Karachi for almost two decades. So, I do not have first-hand experience of the current political culture of Karachi.

Until the end of Bhutto’s period (and during the youthful period of the MQM), Jamaat-e-Islami received considerable support from all those people who were either dismayed by the PML or were opposed to the PPP. Did they really represent the whole of Karachi or the entire Mohajir social group? The answer, in my view, is definitely no -- not really.

Karachi had long enjoyed a cosmopolitan character until Ayub Khan (and his policies) advertently or inadvertently created a temporary gulf between the Mohajir and the Pathans.

The MQM initially gained considerable inroads in Karachi because the mainstream parties were not adequately sympathetic to the needs and demands of (predominantly Mohajir) Karachiites. Bloodshed, lawlessness, and constructed othernesses led to further polarization of support/opposition.

I suspect that Karachi will remain divided on the electoral front. Support for various political parties will depend upon their platforms, chances of their electoral success, the perception of their past performance, and the particular ethnic/nonethnic background/preferences of the voters.

In think, fairdinkum and krashid are better informed to give a more satisfactory response.

Sincerely,Bilal Ahmad

Two books I want to suggest to my friends at Chowk...

1) History of the twentieth Century

by Martin Gilbert.

2)History of the World in the Twentieth century

by J A S Grensville

Sincerely

Yasser Hamdani

Re Harpreet:

You were right on. It should have been the Neo-Deobandi Sunni Republic of West Punjab. :)

Re Krashid:

How come it is okay for Pakistanis to integrate religion into every activity and how come if Indians do it, it becomes fascist? Your punks can raze a temple or two, but that is okay, even permissible by religion. But if a bunch of our morons do it, then the whole country is fascist? So, does that make those muslim invaders who defaced hindu/jain temples [a la qutub minar] evil and fascist? For the sake of argument, isn`t the excessive embrace of religion across all facets of Pakistani society just as fascist and intolerable to the non-believer/outsider?

The fact is that religion and interpretation of religion is a purely private matter and the minute it steps into the public realm, it is dangerous and ruinous. Just look to that epitome of perfection just to your western border.

Ref krashid #: 158

You said {You were quiet clear that anyone disagreeing with the philosophy of Hinduvta should leave India. It does not need to be a rocket scientist to see what is meaning by the post.}

Was Hindutva even mentioned in my post? Here is the original:

``I am glad you didn`t say anything about the much-maligned Marxist theory of economics. It stands discredited even in China, but not of course in West Bengal. As for the Marxist perspective on politics, the less said the better. People who like it could move to North Korea and starve along with the Korean population.``

You said {That, believers in Marxism should leave for North Korea.} Yeah, I said that. So that they could find out first-hand what living in a dictatorship is like before they prescribe it for the masses.

You said {There are other interactors who do the same to Muslims in India that if they have sympathy for Pakistan, they are not welcome in India.} Did I ONCE say anywhere that Indian Muslims should depart en masse for Pakistan or be deported? On the other hand, as Spiro Agnew put it: Love it or leave it. Those who don`t like the Indian political or economic system are not held back by lack of passport or requirement for an exit visa. They could vote with their feet, be it to North Korea or Pakistan. Most people seem to be choosing the USA, from the line in front of the various US consular offices, and there seem to be no takers for China, Iran, Turkey (all of them YLH`s favorite role models for Pakistan), North Korea or Pakistan.

You said {You have no shame in propagating this kind of fascism.}

I actually suggest freedom of movement for people who are so oppressed in their current locations. Come to think of it, the ones who exercised the freedom of movement most were the UP bhaiyas who moved to Pakistan. So don`t complain.

You said {Don`t tell lies. You were not discussing Marxist economics. Nor can you discuss. And you admit it in your post to BAhmed.}

I can`t DEBATE Marxist political theory or economics with a learned professor such as Bilal Ahmad. But I can see that it is not in practice in any of the countries except North Korea.

Talk to YLH. He might be able to sign you up at Rutgers for ESL. And a course in Logic.

Re: Ahmadb #159 (and also other Chowk posters who know more about the MQM than do I)

I thought that the MQM had pretty well purged Karachi of the JUI/JUP/JI types, at least in the Muhajir community. Is this still so or have the Islamists made a comeback? Also, what is the position of the MQM on Islam? I thought they were more `secular` than virtually any other Pakistani political party (PPP excepted perhaps).

Any information on this would be appreciated.

Regards.

ahmadb # 159

I think point #3 is most important. What do you think, how can it be implemented, controlled, and maintained?

Krashid#58,

I agree with you. People have no business telling anyone they cannot call themselves Indian. Especially Muslims who are as much a part of India as any Hindu or Sikh. The Hindutva agenda can only be defeated by a broad alliance of minority groups and the majority of Hindus who want no part of their reductive politics. Declaring India a Hindu state would satisfy those people but no-one else.

To call India a Fascist state because of this is wrong. It is the flip side of the two-nation theory. The monkeys of the BJP are articulating and want to implement TNT to the full . So to call this ``Fascist`` would mean that Pakistan is also ``Fascist`` intrinsically. I do not believe that is true.

To make an analogy, do you think it would be right to re-name Pakistan ``The Sunni Islamic Republic of West Punjab``? Because through domination based on demographics and resulting societal inequalities a case could be made for that being the true face of Pakistani society in light of recent history (following a similar reasoning ). That would be wrong and a disaster though, wouldnt it? Wouldnt you struggle against that?

Would it be right solely to describe Pakistan in those terms?

I am ashamed of elements in my country that are bigoted and fascist, I wish we would settle in Kashmir once and for all, but I will never be ashamed to be Indian or Sikh or Hindu.

At the end of the day we have common enemies. The fundamentalists on my side and your side goad our societies into regressive stances of aggression, stunting our growth, creating siege mentalities. You see through the bluster and hypocrisy and in Pakistan [Ali Pub and Mohammed nightclub becomes Islamic.... :-) ] I hope you can see through the Hindutva`s similar delusions and perversions.

regards

Harpreet

JIHADIS, SHARIA, AND MILITARY

Husain Naqi is one of the leading political commentators in Pakistan. Please see his opinion piece: “Establishment and role of civil society” (The Nation, January 9, 2001).

I find the following remarks somewhat relevant to Professor Gardezi`s article:

(1) The present military regime is too soft on the so-called Jihadi zealots.

(2) Democratic struggle, and its direction, needs to be steered by genuinely patriotic, liberal and progressive intelligentsia.

(3) The politicians must be compelled to adopt programs for citizenship and human rights and liberties through an organized and peaceful mass movement. And the political paries need to commit to participatory democratic change for the betterment of the largest number.

(4) Jamaat-i-Islami’s latest move to support PPP and PML (N) is an effort to gain a foothold in urban Sindh. This move is a ``ploy`` to reproduce the ``military dominated status quo.``

(5) The current ``regime`s minions are toying with the idea of replacing the traditional system in the federally administered tribal areas (FATA) withthe so-called sharia, in order to claim that the so-called nifaz-e-shariat has been accomplished.``

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Gymnosophist #140

Don`t tell lies. You were not discussing Marxist economics. Nor can you discuss. And you admit it in your post to BAhmed.

You were quiet clear that anyone disagreeing with the philosophy of Hinduvta should leave India. It does not need to be a rocket scientist to see what is meaning by the post.

That, believers in Marxism should leave for North Korea.

There are other interactors who do the same to Muslims in India that if they have sympathy for Pakistan, they are not welcome in India.

You have no shame in propagating this kind of fascism.

``With BJP still in office, there is little hope that CTBT, a test ban treaty that India itself had proposed in its earlier gentler, kindlier incarnation, is going to be signed in the foreseeable future.``

You are implying that a Congress govt would have been conciliatory toward signing the treaty, would you care to explain the Congress govt`s policy on CTBT? The reasons cited by India to not sign the CTBT, and during what govt`s rule?

You write that in Pakistan, the Islamic fundamentalist groups have been around since the beginning...was there a movement/opposition from the secular/liberal/human rights activist forces in the earlier decades of Pakistan worth its name? In the present times, overseas, in an environment free of intimidation?

Ref ali1 #: 149

You quoted me as one who said [``who kissed the rear-ends of unwashed Muslims (take that, Farzana,``]

I actually said ``Rajiv Gandhi who kissed the rear-ends of unwashed Muslims (take that, Farzana, and you too, krashid) such as Imam Syed Bukhari of Delhi`s Jumma Masjid and abrogated the civil rights of Indian Muslim women so that they could follow the glorious rules laid down in the 7th century (to prevent women from being buried alive, according to resident Islamic scholars on the Chowk) also accumulated money in Swiss bank accounts.``

Let me parse the sentence for you. Rajiv Gandhi also accumulated money in Swiss bank accounts. Rajiv Gandhi kissed the rear-end of Imam Syed Bukhari. The unwashed Muslims I refer to are Imam Syed Bukhari and people like him who want to abrogate Muslim women`s rights.

I think I have a right to refer to people who wield their authority over the mobs they control to demogogue an issue as `unwashed`. In actual fact, an Englishman would have referred to the mob as `unwashed`. Since Imam Bukhari`s followers would be entirely Muslim, I did not refer to THEM as `unwashed`, being reasonably careful not to generalize by religion, though the common phrase would have been `the unwashed masses`.

Now is that clear? Can you join a course in Remedial English or English as a Second Language? Thank you. And take krashid with you.

I am personally acquainted with people from Kerala who bathe twice a day; this includes the Muslims of Malabar, the Christians of Ernakulam and the Hindus of Trivandrum. So, I would not refer to the multitude of Muslims as unwashed.

Also, when you come from the cold climes of Delhi, you can be excused for not bathing in winter. Even the Hindu brahmin priests of the temples in the foothills of the Himalayas leave a lot to be desired in their personal hygiene.

You said {As much as I hate the jehadis, I suspect they are the only cure for diseases like yours. Next time when you visit India, I hope you get the well-oiled barrel of a jehadi`s AK-47}

Not likely to happen as I tend to frequent Bombay in my visits to India. Sorry to disappoint you.

You said {Maybe time for me to take a break from Chowk!}

Yes, it is. And spend the time usefully in an ESL course.