A World Upside Down

semipreciousme #269

Correction to my previous post: What I meant to say was ``a warning shot across the bows to Bush - but meant to be heard by others``.

What I mean is that he could have sent the same message privately and more forcefully if he had chosen to. But this was designed to be heard by others in the world, I think

semipreciousme #269

The way I see it, most of the statements coming from the politicians are for media consumption. Sharon`s statement was not made on the spur of the moment. I think we can be sure it had been well thought out, discussed, and the responses evaluated. He sent a warning shot across the bows to Bush, essentially. The quiet apology was I think predetermined and expected - just a follow through. The message had already been sent. Where does that leaves us? More reading between the lines, I`m afraid!

Re: Post #275

Hilarious read...! I hear this was originally supposed to be the script for Amir Khan`s new movie, but was shelved because there is no part in it for a Bollywood starlet. But the rumblings are that Shahrukh Khan has no such misgivings. However he has asked for a rewrite of the script (even though it was very industriously written) because it is too similar to his own attempts at writing a thriller novel ...

Reply Sadna # 274

“The Taliban is among the worst governments in the world wrt its treatment of citizens and their welfare, and doesnot even pretend to represent their citizens legitimate individual, regional or ethnic aspirations. However, there have been demonstrations by some Kashmiris in the last few days protesting attacks on the Taliban and on bin Laden. I read a Kashmiri columnist who rued the fact that India missed an opportunity to win over these Laden supporters. He said it could have been done by India keeping silent over support for US action. He said in a hurry to put Pakistan on the spot, the Indian govt. missed this opportunity.”

Sadna

Anybody who supports OBL is likely to be fundamentally (heheh) opposed to the premise underlying the idea of India. At best India’s silence would have bought their silence for a while, but at the expense of losing the support of those people who expect India to stand against OBL’s world view and the consequent actions (crimes) that his supporters carry out.

I do not know who this columnist was, but the most generous interpetation of this comment (based on what you’ve told me) is that they too look at the world in terms of tribes based on ethnicity or religion, and hence fail to understand the essential contradiction in India (whose identity and world view is based in multicultural diversities) playing realpolitik by lending support by omission to OBL types (whose identity and world view is, quite literally, antithetical and in fact at war with India`s).

“My question is, in the context of the points you raised, are these people supporting the Taliban or urging India to do so really pursuing the ideals of democracy and just treatment by representative government? Would even the most perfectly functioning ideal democracy(assuming such a government can exist) be able to fulfil the aspirations of people supporting the Taliban-type of government?”

Democracy is more than the tyrrany of the majority – the rights of individuals, and minorities, to be different have to be respected and protected. Under democracy sovreignty resides in the general public, not in what the clergy define as God. Taliban supporters are not democrats in any sense of the word. They don’t respect individual or minority rights. They don’t respect the general public’s sovreignty. I find it hard to believe that even the most naïve Taliban supporters are democracts.

Question for you: It is very hard to understand why some sections of the Left in India are against India supporting intervention in Afghanistan. Am I wrong in feeling that it is clear that Afghanistan under the Taliban is a centre for chaos, and that among the first countries to suffer from that chaos will be India? If it is knee-jerk anti-Americanism by the Left, or political opportunism, then I am disappointed in the Left. If it is stupidity, well then I’m still disappointed. What’s a liberal pinko to do in these troubled times?

Zafar

Ref semipreciousme #: 268

[“Hey, Pakis. A barbecue party is being held in your neighborhood. So far, you guys have NOT been invited. Maybe in the next round, the US will bomb some Lashkar-e-Taiyoba madrassahs, with barbecued meat aplenty for vultures and bustards.”

….and I’m sure you’ll be first in the bustard line….]

Sorry, I have to pass. I am one of those people who drench their daal and sabzi in heeng and refuse to even look at meat.

Know what? Maybe if you guys and gals bring the beer, you just may be admitted to the barbecue party. But then, you guys have Prohibition.

Sadna, Saminashah, Shammi, Tahmed, YLH, Aisha Sarwari, Zafar, Narain

You are quite correct in your characterization of the Taliban. They somehow failed to mature from a movement to a responsive govenment. I think it`s fair to say that there`s was ``relgion of ideology``.

And no, Taliban leadership themselves refused to be responsive to the will of the Shura as presented by the council of scholars. It is difficult to see them responsive to a larger, elected Shura.

Also will you please comment on the article(see link)that appeared in today`s ``Dawn`` and previously in ``The Guardian``

http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/10/op.htm#1

Re: Sadna

``...Would even the most perfectly functioning ideal democracy(assuming such a government can exist) be able to fulfil the aspirations of people supporting the Taliban-type of government?...``

Frankly, I don`t worry about the statistical outliers (which they very likely are). Policies should not be beholden to the miniscule minority. Things in Kashmir are a juncture where anything that annoys Delhi is acceptable (including cheering Pakistan in cricket matches, hoisting its flag, and supporting Taleban). They mask a rage towards Delhi, not necessarily a support for those causes. It is quite well known that Delhi has many insecurities, and pushing Delhi`s buttons has been quite easy.

This is a fascinating narrative:

http://www.indian-express.com/ie20011010/top1.html
(read Part I first, link on same page)

shammi, Zafar
While agreeing and endorsing all the points you raised in your exchange, I would just like to point out one thing. The Taliban is among the worst governments in the world wrt its treatment of citizens and their welfare, and doesnot even pretend to represent their citizens legitimate individual, regional or ethnic aspirations. However, there have been demonstrations by some Kashmiris in the last few days protesting attacks on the Taliban and on bin Laden. I read a Kashmiri columnist who rued the fact that India missed an opportunity to win over these Laden supporters. He said it could have been done by India keeping silent over support for US action. He said in a hurry to put Pakistan on the spot, the Indian govt. missed this opportunity.

My question is, in the context of the points you raised, are these people supporting the Taliban or urging India to do so really pursuing the ideals of democracy and just treatment by representative government? Would even the most perfectly functioning ideal democracy(assuming such a government can exist) be able to fulfil the aspirations of people supporting the Taliban-type of government?

re: semipreciousme # 267

Perfectly said. Ordinary Kashmiris have become unwilling footballs in a sordid morality play between two equally determined, equally selfish parties - India and Pakistan.

Re: Zafar Al talib

Zafarji:

Very valid questions. I think that the answers are also fairly obvious, if one determines what consequences one would like. I agree that India`s record in Kashmir even before the current insurgency has left much to be desired. Was Salahuddin (HUM chief) not contesting state elections in `87? The culprits have been (a) the Congress party, and (b) Abdullah`s National Conference to a lesser extent. The opening for Pakistan to play its current role was created by short-sighted policies emanating from Delhi (ie. destabilizing the J&K govt., rigging elections, President`s rule, etc.). Vajpayee admitted this as much in his Aug. 15 speech by indicating that the `77 elections were the fairest, only to have Abdullah breathing down his neck (after all, if Vajpayee is right, was Abdullah not complicit?).

Free and fair elections appear to be the only way out.

BTW, according to Amnesty International`s web-site, it IS allowed all over India. I had posted a rejoinder (with a link to AI`s website http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/ASA200052001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES INDIA) to Romairr. The AI press release starts with, ``Launching a year-long campaign in India, Amnesty International called on law and order authorities THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY...`` dated January 30, 2001

Let`s LIBERATE Afghani WOMEN from the tyranny of Taliban -- FIRST -- and do the ``analysis`` later.

Is Pakistan shedding tears for these Muslim brothers (supporting Jehad, perhaps?) or is its concern limited to Kashmiri land only??

{{China hints its Muslim separatists fair targets in war on terror

BEIJING, Oct 10 (AFP) -

China Wednesday gave its strongest sign yet that it considers Muslim separatists in the far west fair targets in the global anti-terror campaign, comparing them to Chechen rebels and Middle East militants.

Chinese Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan told his counterparts from Russia and Qatar that China was also ``a victim of terrorism`` in the Xinjiang region, state media reported.

In a phone call with Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov, Tang said Russia was ``being severely harmed by the Chechen terrorists as China is also harmed by separatist-minded Eastern Turkistan terrorists``, the Xinhua news agency reported.

Eastern Turkistan is the name given to an independent state sought by some activists in Xinjiang, the region bordering Pakistan and Afghanistan among others in China`s extreme west.

In a call to Qatari Foreign Minister Hamed bin Jassem bin Jabr al-Thani, the current chairman of the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC), Tang ``noted that like China, Islamic countries are also victims of terrorism``, Xinhua said.

China has launched a security crackdown in Xinjiang since the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington.

Local officials have reported a round-up of dissidents and witnesses have told of troops flooding into the border region.

In recent years there have been a small number of bomb attacks in Xinjiang blamed by Beijing on Turkic-speaking ethnic Uighur separatists.

Observers say sentiment in Xinjiang is not extreme and that while there is broad support for regional autonomy only a limited number of radicals express support for Osama bin Laden, the Afghanistan-based suspected mastermind of last month`s attacks on the US.

However, there has been speculation China might seek international tolerance for a crackdown in Xinjiang in exchange for supporting the US in its anti-terror fight. Washington however, has pointedly denied any deals have been struck.

On the subject of Sino-US relations, Tang told a senior American official on Wednesday this month`s presidential summit between Chinese leader Jiang Zemin and US President George W. Bush would have a deep impact on relations.

``The timing of your visit could not be better because in about a week`s time our presidents will meet in Shanghai,`` Tang told visiting US Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly.

``The meeting will have a very profound impact on long-term ties.``

Jiang and Bush are scheduled to meet on the sidelines of the Asian Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) leadership summit in Shanghai on October 20-21.

Kelly, who heads the State Department`s East Asian and Pacific Affairs section, began three days of talks on Tuesday about the summit and the launch of US retaliatory strikes on Afghanistan on Sunday.

The APEC summit of 21 Asian countries and regions is the first major multilateral meetings to be held since the attacks on the US a month ago, and Chinese officials have said the issue will dominate the agenda.

On Tuesday Beijing gave its strongest support yet for the US and British attacks on Afghanistan after Bush and Jiang discussed the strikes by telephone.

``China backs all resolutions passed respectively by the UN General Assembly and the Security Council and supports anti-terrorism activities,`` Jiang was quoted by the foreign ministry as saying.}}

tahmed321 #207

….thank you….you responded with much more patience then i could’ve….

Sherdil:

“Last week we had a shocking statement coming from Israeli Premier Sharon in which he made a rather strong statement to the US. The client state told the master off. “

….yes and the client then also sent a letter of apology to the master after being told off by it….

harimau

“

Hey, Pakis. A barbecue party is being held in your neighborhood. So far, you guys have NOT been invited. Maybe in the next round, the US will bomb some Lashkar-e-Taiyoba madrassahs, with barbecued meat aplenty for vultures and bustards.”

….and I’m sure you’ll be first in the bustard line….

Shankar, romair, scout, maheshG, rsridhar etc

Re:Kashmir

This tu-tu-main-main over kashmir is getting more then just a little superfluous…what all of us have to realize is that no one is innocent here…..the pakistani gov’t is guilty for providing military, political, etc support to the jehadis and the indian gov’t is guilty of letting its army have a free rein in Kashmir….the pakistani ppl are guilty of letting these damn jihaids walk all over them and not condemning the innocent killed and the indian ppl are guilty of their silence over the rape and pillage done by their army to ppl they deem as their own…my only fear is that this has been going on for 50+ years now and it may take another 50 years before we get someone with the balls to stand up to their own ppl….