Marital Rape

lakhani #313

Dear Lakhani,

Your statement:

“I don`t want to generalize, but working at a battered women`s shelter gives me a little bit of confidence to say that most of these victims come from low socio-economic status. Sometimes I think that they have accepted the abuse as part of life and if we try to help, we would only be intruding. Maybe there is no solution ...maybe there is no problem.”

Thanks for you input. And welcome to interactive chowk! Your above statement, represents feelings of many people who have worked in some capacity with battered/tortured people. Acceptance of abuse by battered/tortured people as “normal” day to day business is not very uncommon – even in western societies… its more to do with human psychology than socio-economic status of abused individuals… but the difficulty in reaching such people (who have accepted abuse as part of their lives) is enormous and I can empathize with your frustration. Do you work with battered women in Pakistan? If so, do you guys get any training/guidance on psychological aspects of dealing with this problem?

Your statement:

“Especially in Pakistan, where the Police is so ignorant (and specifically women police), how can this matter be solved? This article may reach a handful of sexually abuse married women but what about the ones who are not literate or resourceful enough to get educated on this matter?”

Lakhani, those are very relevant and yet difficult questions you pose. Current education polices of GOP do no provide any hope for us… we are too busy building our nuclear arsenal to worry about battered/abused women of Pakistan. All I can say is that I join you in expressing frustration and disgust at the total indifference of Pakistani society at the plight of abused Pakistani women.

Solitude (#303)

Further to my post #315...

You accuse all those who cannot quite agree or appreciate your calls to annihilate religion and religious people from the face of the earth in “one hit” in the following statement:

“It is YOUR fault, you chose to give up your reason and you ``submitted`` and ``surrendered`` to Islam - you and many people like you.”

In his same post (just a bit further along) you make the following statement:

“Get rid of Islam and there will be no need of blaming the Mullahs. Things will become much simpler and you will not have to come up with imaginative excuses to justify selfish, social maneuvers(sp?) [Manoeuvres] “

Get rid of Islam? Is this a reasonable/pragmatic/sane statement? Who is being unreasonable here? Have you ever considered that it could be you who has chosen to give up reason?

1) A woman`s testimony is not equal to man

2) A woman is not entitled to the equal share in the inheritance laws.

These two above mentioned features of ISLAM shows the crass Gender Inequality that Islam engenders.

I pointed it out in my last two posts, but surprisingly the Educated lot chose to remain oblivious ...plz come forward and negate it...

Solitude #303

Your post 303 is like Ghazwa Badr.

When you say ``YOU`` you mean Muslim.

But when you say ``US`` you did not say what it means.

An orphan brought up by his mother, then grandfather and at the age of eight adopted by his uncle. A calm, decent guy, known as ``Sadiq`` and ``Ameen`` all his life. When started preaching the message of God at the age of forty, the same people of his family and friends become his enemy, to the point that at the age of 53 years he has to leave his beloved city and people. Let me know if you have any grudge against this person till the age of 53.

In ten years this remarkable man spread the message of God to whole of Arabia and surrounding countries. He came for this mission.

He was a leader, who was not only respected but practically worshipped by his followers save he told them ``Worship`` is not allowed to any one but ``Allah``.

If you say evil. How come a person is good all his life, including 13 years of hardship in the process of propagating his mission, suddenly became evil.

Isolated incidences without background don`t give a correct picture. When Meccah was conquered without bloodshed (and that shows his love for his mission rather than blood-thirsty) and all his enemies were in front of him and afraid of him. He told them ``I say to you the same what Joseph told his brothers``

In another post, I told that I have no intention of defending the indefensible. I meant was our popes who have copyrighted religion. As far as Mohammed PBUH is concerned, he accomplished his mission, people of Islamic faith are most monotheist and less prone to ``Shirk`` (essense of Islam) and he has passed away 1400 years back.

What is evil and good. When I work and get a particular pay and my employer gets the hefty share, future historians might say it is evil. However my employer might be very good for this society.

Since you are coming up with describing Mohammed PBUH as evil (if you had courtesy you could add genius) would you care to discuss the specific incidences where you thought that. May be that might help in clarifying my mind. Because I have read his life history from couple of sources with different version, and I might also come out of darkness into light into which you are brightening yourself.

tahmed (hoping you WILL read this one -- no insults here)

Sheesh, man... why so touchy? first the `blah blah blah` bit got to you, now the play on the moniker. For crying out loud... lighten up! It`s only a moniker! It`s not like I called you a bigot or anything :-)

Seriously, I have no animosity for you, though I grant that that feeling may not be mutual. I think we both got carried away in the heat of the moment and BOTH got unnecassarily personal.

If you want an apology for `blah blah blah` don`t you think you should offer one for `bigot`?



On the more serious side... can you explain how/why 5% of the population can be allowed to enforce their will upon 95%? What am I missing here?

And also, you and scout keep suggesting that there is no room for Shariah in Islam... that it is a private matter between an individual and God.. Are you suggesting that there are no laws in Islam other than those governing personal/private conduct?

rgds,

PM

tahmed321 #315,

What happens when most of the liberal minded, educated PAkistanis have left the country? Exactly what we`re seeing happening in Pakistan right now. There`s no one to blame but ourselves.

We`ve built useless mini-paradises in the West.

PM #309, ``Is it entirely inconceivable that others have been touched by something in the religion in a way quite differnt from your own experience? Could it not be that even under (or over) the fear that DOES exist, ther migh also be a cogzizance of something valuable that keeps some people to their faith?``

Well said. That is exactly what my problem with his arguments is. I`ve seen people brainwashed by Mullahs too, but I`ve also seen people saved by their faith in religion and God.

How and why would you let a person who is happy with his/her faith and isn`t hurting anyone give up their religion?

But I don`t think this point will go into Solitude`s head, it`s like a rubber ball, new ideas just bounce off. He`ll come back at you with more hate filled posts and ignore your questions.

Solitude #303

Dear Shiraz,

First, there is nothing wrong in addressing the person (even if that person is religious) when you write your responses – especially when you quote them. You can also include the reference of the post you are replying to… it helps in keeping track of what is going on and who is saying what in what context.

After carefully reading your post in its entirety, I have come to the conclusion that you don’t intend to enter into dialogue, but lecture us on YOUR understanding of religion. Please understand that your arguments have not compelled me to write this post. Intellectually, I find your arguments absolutely pathetic, and if anything, I feel sorry for your understanding of religion, life, and human existence.

But since you have quoted me in you post, and since I was taught certain moral and ethical values, and etiquettes while being “brainwashed” by my parents (I feel profoundly grateful for that brainwashing now), I consider it impolite not to respond.

Your statement:

“No one said anything abusive about Mohammad, his companions, family or Quran. We are all stating facts. We are taking YOUR verses, YOUR ahadith and YOUR sources and showing you YOUR own ugliness in a mirror. “

Fair enough. I appreciate that. I do realize that I have an ugly face… I am biased, and prejudiced in my understanding of religion/life/human existence. I recognize that. And I know (from my brainwashing days) that I know very little and I must recognize and know my biases. I must strive to learn more from others and enhance my understanding of life and human existence …
Do YOU realize that you have also read Quran, Hadit, Islamic history etc. using YOUR own mind with all the biases/prejudices/shortcomings YOU have accumulated over the years? Like me, your understanding of any particular religion/ideology/issue is also effected by various factors such as culture and language, upbringing, ideological slants in your family, socio-political environment, your intellectual capabilities (or lack of them) to grasp intricacies of complex theological/philosophical/socio-political/scientific matters etc. etc. You are not making enunciations devoid of all the things I just mentioned… unless you are claiming divinity? Or you are incapable of understanding that you are a “human being.”

Your statement:

“Nazism and the KKK was not fought by saying ``KKK and Nazism is a nice ideaology - it is just those people in the hoods who kill blacks who are wrong - it is just those soldiers wearing swastikas who are wrong - if we want to reform Nazi Germany let us not `hurl abuse` at Nazism let us instead JUST say bad things about Hitler`”

This comes from your sheer lack of understanding of religion. When you say GOD, you say WE and when you say WE it encompasses all human beings… Can you appreciate that? Why is Quran essentially addressed to human beings and not Muslims? Your failure to understand the fundamental difference between Nazism or KKK ideologies and religion makes me want to jump from West Gate Bridge in Melbourne.

Your statement:

“EVERYONE including Christianity , the Papacy, the Catholic Church etc. was criticized and should be criticized today.”

Should we also criticize Christ for the Holocaust? Is/was Christ also evil? He did “invent” that pathetic religion called “Christianity” which is (directly or indirectly) responsible for the slaughter of many millions of human beings… This evil religion is still capable of bringing the worst in a man to surface (remember Waco Texas?)… and if women have really suffered under any religion, it is Christianity… remember the witch hunts? So shall we proclaim Christ as an evil being and Christianity an evil religion?

As for Salman Rushdie, I have read his book. It was a pathetic attempt on his part to appease the Post-modernists… I guess he completely misunderstood what post-modern thought is all about… The reaction from Muslims was over zealous… Salman Rushdie has every right to express his views and Muslims have a right to disagree and protest… but violence (in any form) cannot and should not be condoned.

Apart from your valid objection to persecution of people in the name of religion and the mistreatment of minorities in Pakistan – on which I concur with you 100%, rest of your post degenerates into emotional outburst, and name-calling. So I stop here.

scout #305 I bet 95% people in Pakistan also agree with this too. There is a great danger of the 5% lunatic fringe trying to institutionalize their views by making shariah (meaning, at best their illiterate misconceptions about Islam) as the law of the land.

I think we are at a cross-roads today, and it is a time of great danger. I greatly fear for the future of our beloved country and our wonderful people.

PM #304 you write ``My dear tahmed321-0``

I stopped reading your post right here (you may not believe this, of course). Reason: If your sense of humor consists of making fun of people`s internet monikers, then you are truly a moron.

RE: #303 the prozac kid

[``We are all stating facts. We are taking...``]

Who is ``we``??

Kala Kurranta saab is just buffing up his political asylum application. You are all alone fella.

This article was brilliantly written. I am an avid chowk reader but never particpated in discussions up until now. This article, however, reminded me of a book that I read not too long ago about marital rape and much much more and wanted to share it with other readers. It is called, Blasphemy by Tehmina Durrani. For those interested, I highly recommend it.

As far as marital rape is concerned, I believe that it is discussed enough already. We talk about it, we get frustrated at people`s reaction and ignorance and then we forget about it. Especially in Pakistan, where the Police is so ignorant (and specifically women police), how can this matter be solved? This article may reach a handful of sexually abuse married women but what about the ones who are not literate or resourceful enough to get edcuated on this matter? I don`t want to generalize, but working at a battered women`s shelter gives me a little bit of confidence to say that most of these victims come from low socio-economic status. Sometimes I think that they have accepted the abuse as part of life and if we try to help, we would only be intruding. Maybe there is no solution ...maybe there is no problem.

I think that in Pakistan, the government needs to pay special attention to this issue along with many other women`s issues. In my opinion, more than half the problems will be solved just by educating them. And I am not talking about ``Nai Roshni`` education; I am talking about real education where they learn their rights given to them in Islam and by Allah, where they have the sensibility to recognize what`s wrong and unacceptable, and right and acceptable. I guess in order for this to materialise, the Government itself needs to be educated. It may take a while but if this process does not start soon, we may not see positive results ...ever.

re. #303

Sol,

I agree with you to some extent (large extent!) on that the Mullahs are convenient scapegoats (and therefore whipping boys) for the moderates. Every time some extremist activity takes places, the moderates can exonerate themselves by claiming that that is not `real Islam`.

I happen to agree that many of the times, that indeed is true (here`s is where I differ from you). The extremists will act on dictates and pronuouncements from the quran/hadith that IMO were purely situational (as in the case of ``take not the Jews or Christians as your friends`` -- a verse `revealed` when tensions between the Muslims and Jews were running high.

Can we blame them? Most of the time, I think not. Religion, when treated as panacea and backed up with the authority of absolute truth, can do the worst of things to the human psyche (as you know only to well, huh?). We saw it in Christianity, we are perhaps seeing it in Hinduism afer a long time, and we aure as hell are seeing it in Islam nowadays.

So yes, your point about who is to blame is quite valid. Is it the uneducated mullah or the the educated (that is, more exposed to outisde ideas) Muslims? I would not concur with your answer completely, though. Yes, it is people who hide their heads in the sand, who will say ``Yes, we agree that Islam is not to be followed literally``, but when the moment comes, will rather condemn the mullahs from afar than face them (in debate, on national TV, for instance). They fail miserably at the question of why it is that the mullahs, who win zero seats in the elections wield so much REAL power (though the answer shold be easy enough). To the extent that this sort of burying one`s head in the sand takes place, I agree, it is the apologists who are to blame for not seeing the link beteen the common basic philosophy they share with mullahs, and the latter`s actions.

BUT...

Is the baby to be thrown out with the bathwater? You state that Islam is a barbaric religion, and bring forth verses to support your claim. But you present just one side of the picture. Would you disagree on that there are some truly uplifting sayings/ wise pronouncements in the Quran and hadith? That women were given rights that were totally revolutionary in the context of sixth century Arabia? That the `economic policies` of the quran are really quite people-firendly?

But forget the specifics... there is a certain ethos that one may either choose to see or ignore, that comes from a GENERAL following of the quran and sunnah... something that trancends and even negates the more undesireable `particulars` within. Yes, I know, your question will be how do we discern/filter? -- I guess here is where that neeyat thingy comes in. I guess the trick is to have some mechanisms in place that prevent the focusing on particulars when they go against the more enduring, general message/ethos. (I don`t know what sort of mechanism this might be, but I think it will always be problematic as long as the `absolute truth for all time` doctrine stands -- the `tragedy` of Islam, IMO. Foe how do you stand up to the mullahs and say `no, we are NOT going to follow the letter of the Quran, even if it is God`s own irrefutable Word?)

Yes, this is all very subjective. But when dealing with matters so obviously close to people`s hearts, we can/must allow for that. You contend that any defense of Islam is born of fear and brainwashing. Might that not be a little arrogant on your part? Is it entirely inconceivable that others have been touched by something in the religion in a way quite differnt from your own experience? Could it not be that even under (or over) the fear that DOES exist, ther migh also be a cogzizance of something valuable that keeps some people to their faith?

Can you even CONSIDER that possibility?? Or are YOUR experiences so central to your observations that you see nothing wrong with extrapolating them to all adherents of the faith?

You mention that `Muhammed was an evil man`. But you do not support that contention with any evidence. Yes, you will produce verses to show how slaying the enemy was approved of. But it seems that often enough you neglect to bring any sort of historical perrspective to bear on the the matter-- strange for someone whose war cry has often been that Islam is a product of uneducated nomads.

Coming back to the baby and bathwater metaphor....Christendom was very much in the situation that present-day radical Islam is (and btw, I agree fully with your contention that Christianity (post-Christ, that is); not just bad Christains, should be blamed for the Inquisition and Holocaust).

It would seem a more viable (and I might say desirable) stragety to purge the religion of its bad elements rather than call for its total denunciation. In any case, the latter is an unrealistic goal, what with 1/6 of the world`s inhabitants professing their faith in and love for Islam.

But I guess you would first have consider the possibilty that others might see in it something that you don`t. Are you up to even CONSIDERING that, Mr. Shiraz? No one is saying that you will necessarily have to alter your stance. But with so many genuinely good people professing to some sublime, life affirming value in Islam, are you willing to entertain the idea that what they are feeling is not all a derivative of fear?

Hoping you will find in this something to think about.

regards,

PM

Solitude #303, ``Why do you not have the courage to discard the mask of Islam behind which you committ

your crimes ?``

Oh so now every Muslim is a criminal....hahaa

Yeah, I just robbed the 7-11 around the corner. Islam told me to. And before I mugged the Bengali working there, I cited verses from the Quran to justify the crime. Islam told me that too.

Good one. You never cease to amaze/entertain me with your gibberish.

.....solitude is beginning to sound just like those rabid islamists and jesuits and baptists and other assorted disciples of extreme religion ... what happened? od`d on ibn waraq ??.......at some point anti-religion becomes a relgion with its own demonic gods ..... and i thought ole solitude was a fun-loving secular-humanist who could poke fun at people who claim to walk on water and go for heavenly rides without flying off the handle if sombody called Madalyn O`Hair a fat old stupid woman who deserved to be abducted by a UFO..........

....... most of the people i love and respect happen to be fairly religious folk who do not wear their rather silly faith (in my view) on their sleeve or shove it in your face ..... some of them pray five times a day and others, like me, twice a year - but none of them have the gall to ``invite`` innocent bystanders to participate in regimented salat or do their silly dawah thing ...... some of my best friends will leave the ice melting in their scotch while they go pray maghrib, and others will routinely cross themselves when confronted by a rotweiller or a vision of a shaggy shepherd...... and as much as i hate to admit it, i even know some pretty decent hindus whose poor wives slave away in vegetarian kitchens while they gorge theemsleves on rare porterhouses ...... i only hope such people, with a live and let live attitude, can keep our rabid brethren in check ..... and hopefully, over time we will evolve to a point where the pope and qazi hussain are made irrelevant .....

....of course the horrible taliban, and others like them, are a real threat to civilization and mankind, and should be stopped by all means .... however, we do not have to invent another religion with anti-god as god to fight these idiots .....

Re: Solitude

{{The ONLY way is by letting Muslims know that what they are following is unethical, harmful (to themselves and others) and UNHOLY``

``Nazism and the KKK was not fought by saying ``KKK and Nazism is a nice ideaology - it is just those people in the hoods who kill blacks who are wrong - it is just those soldiers wearing swastikas who are wrong - if we want to reform Nazi Germany let us not `hurl abuse` at Nazism let us instead JUST say bad things about Hitler`}}

Excellent point. People never think of it in that way but it makes a lot of sense.