Marital Rape

tahmed321, #299, `` Islam is the personal business between the individual and God, there is no room for self-appointed intermediaries like mullahs and shariah courts - this simple fact is made amply clear in the Quran itself.``

I totally agree!

re. #294

My dear tahmed321-0,

I apologize for using `blah blah blah` to express what I felt about your accusatory posts.

After reading your #294, in which you again (count: 3) fail to come up with a single piece of evidence to support your accusations, while you cleverly pretend that I not have addressed the issue of my alleged `intellectual dishonesty` wrt your position on hamidm -- I hereby offer offer to retract those three words (err.. do I have to use them on someone else before I can retract them *wink, wink *?) .

Yes, retract them I must! They were most inappropriate. What I actually meant was...

`yadda, yadda, yadda`.

Now, if you`d be so `intellectually honest` yourself so as to support your accusation of Islam-bashing with some evidence... (This is request #3 or #4, I believe). It`s not so difficult, y`know ... my words are strewn all over these pages.. all u ned to do is (a) cut and (b) paste.

rgds,

PM

``I can’t talk to Muslims if I come out with guns blazing and hurl abuse at Mohammad, his companion, Mohammad’s family, the Quran etc. etc. why is it so hard for people to understand that any change for the better in a religious society like Pakistan has to come from within? Do you think you can stop the perverted Islam of Mullah Omar from spreading into Pakistan by describing Islam as a barbaric religion, which should be condemned? ``

No one said anything abusive about Mohammad, his companions, family or Quran. We are all stating facts. We are taking YOUR verses, YOUR ahadith and YOUR sources and showing you YOUR own ugliness in a mirror. It is the defenders of Islam, the apologetics etc. who are abusing those of us who hold mirrors. On top of that you complain ``oh you are abusing our religion``.

People must be allowed to criticize Islam. Criticize Mullah Omar today but tomorrow there will be some other Bin Ladin , some other dictator , some other rapist, murderer etc. just like the rapists and murderers of the past.

If the lot of human beings who call themselves Muslims is to be bettered then Islam must be exposed for what it truly is - Mohammad should be exposed for what he was : an evil man and a product and reaction to a less evil society.

The ONLY way is by letting Muslims know that what they are following is unethical, harmful (to themselves and others) and UNHOLY. The false shroud of holiness that covers Islam must be removed to expose the ugly decaying structure underneath.

Nazism and the KKK was not fought by saying ``KKK and Nazism is a nice ideaology - it is just those people in the hoods who kill blacks who are wrong - it is just those soldiers wearing swastikas who are wrong - if we want to reform Nazi Germany let us not `hurl abuse` at Nazism let us instead JUST say bad things about Hitler`

Hitler cannot be blamed for EVERYTHING. He was not the commander of children - he was the commander of an entire nation of brainwashed fools who were just as devout christians as he was. EVERYONE including Christianity , the Papacy, the Catholic Church etc. was criticized and should be criticized today. Mullah Omar and Bin Ladin and Saddam Hussain and other marauders are NOT leading children - they are leading a nation of sweet talking murderers. They are leading hypocrites who are making sabotaging the very hand that is trying to help them.

They are idolized by many Muslims - take care of your own kind first instead of telling US to stop critiquing Islam. What gall you have to insult our intelligence by accusing us of ``hurling abuse``. No one has ever hurled abuse at your religion or Prophet . You have accused many other people of ``abusing`` your religion (remember the case of the illiterate Masih boy who was accused of blasphemy and nearly executed and coutless others who are executed, assasinated or persecuted?).

You say your mullahs have no control over you - then why do most of you hate salman rushdie so much without as much as bothering to read his book ? Remember the book burnings YOU (not the Mullahs) carried out ? The mullahs have been your poor scape goats as always. Whenever the evil in you needs an excuse you look to mullahs and willingly sumit to evil of Islam.

It is YOUR fault, you chose to give up your reason and you ``submitted`` and ``surrendered`` to Islam - you and many people like you. Do you blame the Mullahs for abusing the power you give them. Do you blame them when they say ``You are a doctor you cure my obesity problem. I am an Alim I will advise you in matters of killing non muslims``? Do you blame them when they say :``If you have a problem with your car you go to a mechanic because he went to an engineering school and has engineering experience- if you have a problem with your religion you go to a Maulana because he went to a religious school and has religious experience``. They are absolutely right. The power from the Mullahs is given to them BY YOU !


But when the world asks why ? you blame some innocent boy from the madrasah : ``it is all his fault he is misleading people in the name of our religion``. YOU are the ones using the religion. You are the ones choosing the path of easy virtue and easy conscience by shifting the blame and responsibility to some poor fanatic (too possessed by an overdose of Islamic brainwashing to discern his own good).

Shame on you, you irresponsible hypocrites. Why do you not have the courage to discard the mask of Islam behind which you committ your crimes ? Get rid of the mask rather than blaming the mask maker. Get rid of Islam and there will be no need of blaming the Mullahs. Things will become much simpler and you will not have to come up with imaginative excuses to justify selfish, social maneuvers(sp?)

http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/01/17/fp7s2-csm.shtml
A veil drapes Cairo campus in controversy

PM 300

Sure.. don`t worry... I understand perfectly well.

perhaps its time to change the topic...

Take care mate!

fairdinkum #297 There is a real danger of the mullahs taking power with the help of the generals. These two parties realize that they would never be voted into power by the people of Pakistan. I think we need to put as much pressure on the military as we can, in whatever way we can, to do their patriotic duty and give back power to the people and stop building up the mullahs. Islam is the personal business between the individual and God, there is no room for self-appointed intermediaries like mullahs and shariah courts - this simple fact is made amply clear in the Quran itself.

fairdinkum #297

``Finally, IMHO, wholesale condemnation of Islam/Muslims/religious people, I believe, is an ill-conceived approach towards handling the menace of Talibanism.``

hmmm... have you been talking to tahmed lately? :-)

But seriously, I understand perfectly where you`re coming from... Islam *is * much maligned and misunderstood... even among Muslims... I applaud your efforts to correct impressions.

I`m not in the mood to repeat (again!) what it is I am actually opposing in my `bashing` posts.

sincerely,

P.

PM #295

“fairdinkum, I would be lying if I said I didn`t have problems with anyone pointing out Islam`s `preferntial treatment` of ahl-e-kitab. For where does that leave the kafirs/agnositcs/Buddhists etc??”

Hmm, I should start reading your posts more carefully :) Interesting point! Salvation for mankind… yes, of course. Rest is all BS… And if religion does not aspire for that then what is the point of all the mumbo Jumbo?

PM, you’ll find the following link interesting… we can talk about this matter once you have read the article. I know the pragmatic, liberal, scientific view on your above statement… but I always find the religious explanations/discussions rather interesting… In the Islamic literature that I have read… I have not come across anything similar to what is discussed in the following article…

http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll?action=showitem&id=247

Stay cool! Btw I enjoy the use of “falana” in your posts :)

PM #295

Dear Patrick,

“But doing this with a view to(or with the result of) somehow support(ing) Islam as a complete basis for lesgislative apparatus can, IMHO, have distrastrous results.”

Let me say it clearly so that no ambiguity remains.

Yes, I am sure that implementation of Shariah law will have disastrous consequences for all of us in Pakistan… I would be the first one to get my mother and my sisters out the place ASAP… given the jahalat and kameengi prevalent amongst clergymen I am absolutely sure that that is what will happen if shariah was imposed as the supreme law of the land in Pakistan… I am totally and utterly opposed to such endeavors in a society where corruption, nepotism, cronyism, injustice, and cowardice is rampant. It is entirely possible to conceive of a society where shariah is fully implemented, and practiced (i.e. a pure juris prudential society) but which is morally, and ethically bankrupt. S Arabia, and Afghanistan are stark examples of such a society. And given that Pakistan is already morally and ethically bankrupt, implementation of shariah can only make matters worse by making Mullahs the supreme leaders of the nation.

Please understand that my intentions in offering apologetics for Islam are not geared towards supporting implementation of shariah laws at all. I turn to Islam of Mohammad, and I turn to Muslims, so that we can understand and realize that what is on offer in the name of Shariah is too damn dangerous… what Mullah Omar has implemented in Afghanistan is a perversion (of the lowest and meanest kind) of Mohammad’s vision for humanity. However, I can’t talk to Muslims if I come out with guns blazing and hurl abuse at Mohammad, his companion, Mohammad’s family, the Quran etc. etc. why is it so hard for people to understand that any change for the better in a religious society like Pakistan has to come from within? Do you think you can stop the perverted Islam of Mullah Omar from spreading into Pakistan by describing Islam as a barbaric religion, which should be condemned? It is this approach I object to. I hope you understand.

I am aware of your (and hamidm’s for that matter) sincere desire see the oppressed, and downtrodden people of Pakistan live in peace and prosperity. You have tried hard to focus the debate on issues, which may arise as a result of implementation of Shariah and the disastrous consequences that are certain to follow any such stupid move in Pakistan. However, I have problems with hurling abuse at the very essence of Islamic faith. You must understand that “religious” people are not necessarily “bigots” like Mullah Omar. Most religious don’t even think that they are “religious” … I think we spoke on this matter on another occasion?

Finally, IMHO, wholesale condemnation of Islam/Muslims/religious people, I believe, is an ill-conceived approach towards handling the menace of Talibanism. If you were responsible for policy making in Pakistan, how would you handle the problem of ``Talibanism`` ?

PM #285 I got into specifics with you: provided you with a specific example - and repeated it at your request - of what I considered to be a clear case of intellectual dishonesty on your part. You conveniently side-stepped the issue with an over-clever set of arguments, without doing me the courtesy of a straight answer (let alone an honest apology). So, excuse me for not discussing anything seriously with you.

Siagalph #235

If Deewan-e-Ghalib is changed, then I don`t know but before you wrote the correction version in current Deewan is:

Har Ek Baat Pe Kehte Ho Tum Ke Tu Kia Hai

Tumhi Kaho Ke Yeh Andaaz-e-Guftgoo Kia Hai.

The current version of your recent verse is:

Is Saadgi Pe Kon Na Mar Jaye Ay Khuda

Karte Hain Qutl Aur Haath Mein talwaar Bhi Nahin.

With apology to me if I am also wrong.

But you are still too good for Urdu as visiting language.

re. #272

Dear fairdinkum,

I sincerely appreciate your efforts to illustrate the `friendly` nature of Islam. I am well aware of verses and ahadith that exhort tolerance and respect for followers of the book. (Though in all fairness, there are other, less friendly, verses, which I do believe were quite situational in nature, that also exist).

fairdinkum, I would be lying if I said I didn`t have problems with anyone pointing out Islam`s `preferntial treatment` of ahl-e-kitab. For where does that leave the kafirs/agnositcs/Buddhists etc??

This illustrates what I think is a danger with your quoting from the Quran/hadith... You might quite correctly quote those verses/traditions that represent the more enduring message of the faith, but -- BUT -- for every such verse you reproduce, there is some self-interested (or merely overzealous) guy ready to produce one to the contrary -- which I grant was probably relevant only in a certain situation (during war, for instance).

If this were all a private matter of faith, I`d have no gripe with those supplying alternative interpretations and even far-out apologetics. So much the better! But doing this with a view to(or with the result of) somehow support(ing) Islam as a complete basis for lesgislative apparatus can, IMHO, have distrastrous results.

Pankaj,

Hi. You say: ``What are the attributes of human mind that can not be programmed. Emotions form one such attribute``

I wonder why you suppose emotions are not programmable. Given that our emotions are products of chemical/neurological reactions, isn`t is at least imagineable to reproduce them in neural/biological networks? Ahhh.. but, you will say, those will be mere simulations, not the real thing-- not it`s OWN. Right? Well, may that perception be nothing more than our self-centrism... in other words, a subjective bias?

rgds

Pat.

P.S. Yeah, thinking of machine consciousness gives me the creeps too, but it`s always interesting to ask why, nO? :)



Sameer,

I hear you. I agree with almost everything you write (and am enlightened by some of it). More thoughts to follow...

rgds,

PM

re zahra

Thank you for your very kind words. I wish I could find some site where there are translations of some of the best shers.

On a serious note, think about something. The ghazal is the sublimest form of men courting women (of course that`s not all they are about)and the emotions expressed therein by men for women are nothing short of worshipful, eg

Prastash ki yahan tak ke ai but tujhe,

Nazr mein sabhon ki khuda kar chale (Meer)

How can this same culture commit, condone, and culturally accept honour killings and marital rape etc etc? Any clues?

PM :

There is enough testimony from Hindus and Buddhists that there is something to be discovered within the depths of our consciousness. What I mention is in that context.

Mind, consciousness are subjective phenomenon. If quoting physicists is useful, note the observation of Schrodinger that consciousness is always experienced in the singular. There are profound difficulties in bringing the scientific method to bear on it. For now, there is only one way to know if what is claimed by the traditions is true or not.

If you can not think of ``pink rhinocerous`` for the next thirty seconds, you may have a mind sufficiently trained to verify or not, the claims made by the traditions I mentioned above.

-Arun Gupta

RSaxena :

Actually, the statement ``the universe is pointless`` is a strong statement. It may be answering a question that may be as meaningless as ``what is the color of the electron ?`` It is asserting that the question ``does the universe have a purpose`` is meaningful and that the answer is ``no``.

--

In any case, in Hinduism, as far as I am aware, the purpose of the universe, if it has one, is unknown. It is part of the mystery called ``Maaya``, which is incorrectly translated or understood to mean ``illusion`` or ``delusion``. I believe that the Buddha also did not care to address this question. So, S.Wein.`s statement is an incorrect reason for atheism.

--

I read Feynman as believing that whether the universe has a purpose or not is irrelevant. S.W. on the other hand is pessimistic -- projecting his own belly-ache onto the world.

--

Can something be beautiful and pointless ? Actually, beautiful things may justify their own existence.

-Arun Gupta