Marital Rape

re krashid

``Even for this poor command of English ...I am indebted to the books and literature.``

Exactly my thoughts about Urdu. At least you can easily indulge in English books and literature. I cannot even say that about me and Urdu. You are the fortunate one, my friend. But I try and perservere. Some day...

I do take exception about your sentiments on the late Shah of Iran. His replacement by the ayatollahs was the classic example of the old saying that `in revolutions, what replaces bad is often worse.`

Since we are on the board dealing with women, I can only point out the record of Shah`s Iran and Khomeini`s Iran vis-a-vis women: If Islam finds it manifestation in flogging women for wearing lipstick and doing `virginity` tests, God help all those who claim to be adherents thereof.

Fuzair #324

I don`t accept your logic.

Even if Sunnis don`t accept some philosophies of Shia,s, but we have to learn something from them.

For example, I don`t agree with the philosophy of Shia Islam regarding Imamat seeing the history of Imam Mehdi and Ismaeli Aga Khan. The same with bashing of companions of prophets.

But we have also to see Shia philosophy in the light of persecution throughout centuries and their tactics for survival.

But after the Iranian revolution, there have been many developments in Shia philosophy. Foremost among them `Tehrik-e-Rubobiat`` more near to Tawheed and questioning the divine status for Imam. Moreover many things common in Islam like believe in One God etc plus the revolutionary spirit of Shia Islam. Also Sunni Islam has been a middle man between public at large and Rulers and Sunni Ulema playing that role for their advantage. While Shia Islam at least in Iran now has been a people`s revolution against the tyrant Shah.

I think even if not accepting everything, we have a lot to learn from them.

Siagalph 235#

As you said my English.

Even for this poor command of English (And that is true compared to Urdu) I am indebted to the books and literature.

Rest you can understand what I mean.

Re: PM

``But then, you working on a supposedly universal ethic of your own here -- that is, that it is somehow wrong to `go beyond expressing what is ``right``and ``wrong```-- that it is wrong to pass moral judgement? Isn`t this in itself a kind of moral judgement?``

The act of passing moral judgement on issues other than murder, theft, etc. by itself is not wrong. It`s akin to thinking a dirty thought..who cares if it`s just a thought. What is dangerous is when people seek to impose their moral judgements on other`s. Fortunately, most of us live in societies in the West where people are not allowed to impose their moral judgements on other`s (to some extent they are, but it`s much better than elsewhere).

Re Marital Rape

I must have lived in a different Pakistan where women are treated with utmost respect and protective care. In Pakistan you will not find women lap dancing like North America, your MECCA, and you think there are no crime against women other than in Pakistan.Your article has no basis to declare that marital rape is common in Pakistan.All I can see is a blind hatred and typical western view based on some bleeding heart liberal trash.

I can imagine you growing up in a household in gulberg with four older sisters who did shopping in the Liberty Market drank Pepsi and ate burgers.Let me tell you that Pkistan is full of good people and I beg you, please do not ever go to Pakistan.I agree that no society is crimefree and Pakistan is no execption.I can very well see where you are coming from and it does not bother me at all to see the pearls of wisdom you have included in your article.Pakistan is going through a cleansing process and in the end people like you will end up where you belong.Remember Iran.

A reminder to FARAGIKUSH! where have you been, man.I have not seen in your usual living colours.

fairdinkum,

you suggested a change of topic. here`s something I thought you`d find interesting.

Zehra, (if you`re around) you`ll LOVE this!

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/10/berkowitz.htm

Wooed by Freedom?--- Why the young distrust love and fear commitment

later,

PM

rsaxena #345,

Give me a break! I`m not one to mince words about something I feel strongly about. I can`t be as diplomatically articulate as Sadna or as ``worldly`` as our Zahra baji.

So if I pass judgment, what`s it to you? I`m not God you know.

As far as Solitude is concerned:

``he is urging people to free themselves of religious imprisonment to allow free choice for themselves and others.``

Urging is an understatement. The guy is a walking ``I hate Islam`` banner. Someone on this board said and I agree strongly, that being so fanatic about hating religion is a religion in itself.

On the one hand, he (and you) are talking about free choice, and on the other hand you want the choice of practicing religion to end. That does not make sense. There are people who CHOOSE to follow religion peacefully, spiritually, with no harm intended to others. Why does that irk you so?

``(btw, I don`t think he`s my friend.)``

Don`t worry, there`s a light at the end of the tunnel. You guys will get together some day :)

Don`t lose hope.

Dear fairdinkum,

Just finished reading the article. Thanks. Quite interesting, though not without what IMO are lame Christian apologetics.

Still, there is much in it to ponder on, imbibe and learn from. Will re-read and then look forward to exchanging thoughts with you.

Mail me at postmatser@yahoo.com if u`d like. (note the spelling)

Later,

P.

RSaxena:

you say (ok, not to me, but I Love butting in :))

``People most certainly are entitled to their opinions. But you often go beyond expressing dislike and declare what is universally ``right`` and ``wrong.`` For example, I may disagree with the idea of using cocaine but I won`t pass moral judgements on people who do so.``

But then, you working on a supposedly universal ethic of your own here -- that is, that it is somehow wrong to `go beyond expressing what is ``right``and ``wrong```-- that it is wrong to pass moral judgement? Isn`t this in itself a kind of moral judgement? (Not that I`m suggesting you`re calling for punitive actions or anything... just pointing out that there are value judgements inherent even in the supposedly neutral stance of value relativists. I have yet to come across a true skeptic in real life. Face it... we`re all making some value judgements all the time. The best we can do is not step on others` toes doing so.)

regards,

PM

Re: scout

``Aren`t people entitled to an opinion. I never told anyone to stop what they`re doing. Just expressed my dislike for it.``

People most certainly are entitled to their opinions. But you often go beyond expressing dislike and declare what is universally ``right`` and ``wrong.`` For example, I may disagree with the idea of using cocaine but I won`t pass moral judgements on people who do so.

``By the way, isn`t your friend Solitude trying to change people`s choices by his personal definition of religion?``

Quite the contrary...he is urging people to free themselves of religious imprisonment to allow free choice for themselves and others. (btw, I don`t think he`s my friend.)

``You are welcome to call me conservative. I don`t consider it an insult. We just look at things differently.``

I don`t mean it as an insult at all.

re krashid #296

I rechecked, my verses come from the Deewan as well. That said, I am told that there were some minor changes made when the Diwan went into successive editions. I was hoping that Zahra would clear this up. I am no infallible authority on Mirza sahib.

You wonder about, what you call, my grasp of Urdu(there are not many times but this is one that I wish you were right). How about I wonder about your command of English? Then we`d be even.

Count your blessings pal, you probably grew up speaking and living Urdu.

Cheers.

re. Solitude #331

``Someday - I will. You should realized I cannot post everything here but I can post things upon demand.``

On demand??? So consider this a demand (or polite request, if you will) to support your claim. I`ll help you, if you`d like (just so no one thinks I`ve turned a 180 a la Umer). The worst you can point out in the life of Muhammed would, I suspect, be his reported acquiesence in the slaying of the defenceless poets. Assuming those traditions are true, does that make him evil?? Ummm... I don`t know... in the context of the times and situation... teething movement and all.. well.. I`m really not sure. We can`t place ourselves in the those times too easily. Would you call Attaturk an evil man? Caesar?

Remember, these men were much more ruthless with their enemies than Muhammed could ever be accussed of being.

And what do you say for man who claimed that `the ink of the scholar is worth the blood of a thousand (?) jehadis`?

My only suggestion to you is that you try and bring some measure of balance to your assessment. If for no other reason, because somewhere along the path of trying to expose gross misrepresentations and hypocrisies, you seem to have lost that valuable element of disinterestedness/objectivity.

`` Give me a break, I am up against 1400 years and millions of people.``

Do you HAVE to see yourself as being up agianst the weight of history and half the world? Why don`t you try focusing on simply being FOR the truth -- disintrestedly! If it makes you feel any better, you`ll probably still find a lot to rail against Islam and Muslims. Only, it will hopefully not be burdened with the terrible prejudice it currently has IMO.

``Those who are interested in information can go and find out for themselves. I intend to share what I know on my own schedule.``

O C`mon... who`re u kidding?? `Only what you know`?? Why do I have a hard time believing that? Are you keeping some of what you `know` from yourself too, maybe? Stuff that might upset YOUR conceptual applecart?

Take care buddy. And a few deep breaths before you sit down to write again.

best rgds,

PM

Screw the ceasefire (one doesn`t negotiate with terrorists)....bring in some Israeli anti-terrorism expertise and technology and fumigate these Jehadis.

From ABC News:

{{``What is particularly surprising and distressing is the fact that the leadership of Pakistan continues to do nothing to restrain these terrorist organisations which operate from Pakistani soil, even as it (Pakistan) professes its eagerness to resume talks with India,`` Press Trust of India (PTI) quoted Vajpayee as saying. Speculation has been mounting over whether the government will again extend the truce which is due to end on Republic Day, January 26. Kashmir Chief Minister Farooq Abdullah said earlier on Thursday the killing of innocent people during the ceasefire would affect any decision on the truce. ``The killing of innocent people has not stopped and infiltration has also been reported during the ceasefire period,`` the PTI quoted Abdullah as saying. ``They (the government) are going to review the whole thing, they will take everything into consideration and then decide on the ceasefire,`` he told reporters after a meeting with Vajpayee. On Wednesday, 12 people were killed and dozens wounded when a suicide squad tried to storm the high-security Srinagar airport. }}

yme #325

``it seems like even the die-hard rationalists are softening up and starting to rein in old sol.come on guy`s whats wrong with calling a spade a spade``

If I may be counted among your `die-hard rationalists` (a label I`m not totally comfortable with actually), then you should rest assured... I have no intention to ask folks to stop calling a spade a spade. I will still rail against irresponsible apologetics. But there is a world of a difference between telling it like it is and telling half the story only, with a decided bias at that.

Solitude still has a lot to `offer` the apologists ... stuff they should be more aware of if they are realistically going to take on the extremists threat. I still contend that many of them content themselves too much by simply side stepping some problematic questions (cf Fuzair`s posts) and with simplistic solutions. They would do well to treat Solitude as devil`s advocate. Metaphorically, for a change.

As for my `softening`, well there had to be something to neutralize the excessive `hardness` of Solitude`s stance, nO?

rgds,

PM

rsaxena #329, ``You aren`t suggesting that you are ``liberal minded,`` are you?``

If your definition of liberalness is drinking, screwing around, and exposing your body then by your definition, I`m ultra conservative. I`m not ashamed to admit it. My conversation with tahmed was about the people who are liberal minded when it comes to religion, education, and women`s rights.

``You often oppose people`s right to make choices about their lifestyle on the basis of your personal definition of morality..``

Aren`t people entitled to an opinion. I never told anyone to stop what they`re doing. Just expressed my dislike for it. By the way, isn`t your friend Solitude trying to change people`s choices by his personal definition of religion?

And I bet he`s a liberal in your mind rite?

``that`s hardly being liberal minded.``

Once again, you`re entitled to think of me however you wish. You are welcome to call me conservative. I don`t consider it an insult. We just look at things differently.

Vaneeza #324

Good explanation there. Thank you. Your last paragraph jsutifying the half-inheritance of women made good sense. It also brought out the need to see many (not necessarily all) of the quranic injunctions in their socio-historical context. IMO anyay.

You say: ``I`m not sure whether a mother has a right on the son`s property but I think she does.``

I think each parent is entitled to one-eighth of a son`s legacy. I could be wrong.

regards,

PM