Marital Rape

ali1:#334

Thanks a lot!

Yours is definitley PAHLA NUMBER.

Remember Chirkeen`s second misr`a: ``Phull Phulla kurr........lushkar e kuffaar nay``..?

``Qatl ul moozee,qubl al eeza``

__________________________________________________

wassalaam

RSaxena:

As a disciple, it must be painfully hard to hear any comments about your teacher. Take it easy!!
Maulana(knowledgeable man)is quite capable of handling his matters on his own. Don`t tell me that you are tasked to be his spokesman ?
Good for you, bad for him!

Take Care
``Mr. Spokesman``

Solitude #331 ``Give me a break, I am up against 1400 years and millions of people.``

Perhaps we have an inflated sense of our self-importance, n`est pas?

Re: Zahra

``Maulana Solitude ``

He is the last person on Chowk I`d consider a Maulana. Also, unlike many of us, I don`t think he personalizes his arguments...you shouldn`t either.

RE: # 325

[``The problem on chowk imo is there are no real so called `ulema` here....``]

....and also that there are no real so called atheists or rationalists here, just a few sick and hate-filled people suffering from oral hemorrhoids. I`ll give two examples:

- chowk`s resident religion expert thinks that Al Baqarah 223 allows and encourages anal rape of one`s wife (# 19) and the other ``hardcore`` (aarrghhh) rationalist chimpanzees applaud him for ``calling a spade a spade`` (# 325).

- resident chowk linguist/anthropologist does a Google search on ``Rajput`` and pastes the results here and the pathetic rationalist monkees praise his scholarly efforts in unison.

[``Therefore lets keep pushing the danda``]

The danda is up where it belongs buddy. For example, check Tasleema Nasreen`s booty if there are any doubts.

``Someday - I will. You should realized I cannot post everything here but I can post things upon demand. Give me a break, I am up against 1400 years and millions of people. Those who are interested in information can go and find out for themselves. I intend to share what I know on my own schedule``

Yeh, Hooyee Naa Baat! Well that was sweet!

PM:
Maulana Solitude is a very busy preacher, please do not question him unnecessarily. Sunna` Naheen Keh Unho-nae`n Kyaa Furmayaa` Hae`? Aap Kee Buhat Meherbani Hogi Agur Aaap Upnae` Savalaat Kaa Tokraa Upnae` Paas Rukhaen Aur Unn Ko Javab Daenae` Kae` Kusht Sae Door Rukhaen` :-)

Probably, this was the shortest response I have ever seen from Maulana`s Keyboard :-)

Fuzair #323 ``I am not the first and won`t be the last to say that the true tragedy of Islam is that it has had no successful reformation to bring it in line with modern life. ``

No religion went thru Reformation like Christianity did. And the Christian Reformation was part of a broader European Renaissance. External factors (notably the much maligned Islamic World) were a major factor in the European Renaissance (including the provision of the three-sail technology that enabled Europeans to build ocean-faring vessels that carried them to the shores of India, Africa, America and sparked the spirit of adventure that lives to this day in the West). My point is: Simply dumping on Islam is a cop out. What we need is a broader social change that comes through new ideas, new technologies - the whole caboodle. We will then have a paradigm shift, and the same Islam that is seen as a part of the problem by so many people will become a part of the solution.

``You mention that `Muhammed was an evil man`... But it seems that often enough you neglect to bring any sort of historical perrspective to bear on the the matter`` - PM

Someday - I will. You should realized I cannot post everything here but I can post things upon demand. Give me a break, I am up against 1400 years and millions of people. Those who are interested in information can go and find out for themselves. I intend to share what I know on my own schedule.

PM #318 OK, bring out the old peace pipe, and lets move on.

you write ``On the more serious side... can you explain how/why 5% of the population can be allowed to enforce their will upon 95%? What am I missing here?``

At the risk of being sucked into a ``serious discussion``, here is my response: what you are missing is the military. Having failed to win elections, the mullahs have been trying to gain influence in the military. They have not had much success so far, thanks to the strength of Pakistani military tradition. But given where we are today - the mullahs are armed, getting money from the middle east and inspiration from Afghanistan and Kashmir - this danger cannot be discounted. I think the mullahs smell blood, and the only thing holding them back is their own internal bickering and lack of public support.

You write ``And also, you and scout keep suggesting that there is no room for Shariah in Islam... that it is a private matter between an individual and God.. Are you suggesting that there are no laws in Islam other than those governing personal/private conduct?``

The Quran makes it clear that there are no intermediaries between man and God. Logic dictates that in such case there is no room for a mullah (or anyone else) to tell another person (let alone an entire society) what the laws of God are. One can argue what the laws of the country should be, and through what process, but without the benefit of claiming that your interpretation of God says in the Quran is better than that of someone else.

While I am on the subject: The Quran says many other things that I never hear about either from the fundamentalists, or from the Islam-bashers: The Quran says that to be close to God you need not be a muslim - you may be a Christian, a Jew, a Sabian (whose beliefs were similar to Hinduism, I understand) and so on as long as you (a) believe in God, (b) the Judgement Day (which I assume means believe in a moral universe where our actions will be judged, and (c) do good works. The Quran says that God did not make man to pray like angels, but to learn about his creation. This clearly means that the idea is for people to persue science and learning, not keep children away from schools (as the Taliban are doing).

scout #317 ``What happens when most of the liberal minded, educated PAkistanis have left the country?``

They become better educated by seeing the world and meeting people from other parts of the world and seeing that they are human beings like us. And thus they become more open-minded. They then contribute in various ways - foreign exchange remittances; foreign idea remittances (less obvious, but more powerful); donations to NGO schools and health clinics; bringing in foreign direct investments; promoting peace in the sub-continent. The ``brain drain`` that people feared about becomes a ``brain gain``. And there is fertile ground in Pakistan for all this, since expatriate Pakistanis have been appreciated and their views listened to (although not necessarily acted on) by every government in Pakistan.

Hello y`all chowk folks!!!

Very interssting discussion. Sorry had to jump in at this late juncture,it seems like even the die-hard rationalists are softening up and starting to rein in old sol.come on guy`s whats wrong with calling a spade a spade.

The problem on chowk imo is there are no real so called `ulema` here,most islamists are soft core liberals with their knowedge base being what they were taught about islam by their middle class parents. It is hard to be angry with them if they are basically asking for mercy,to just be a little bit kinder to islam, its founder and followers and thats fine and dandy but if you do that you stop the learning process. Imagine if every one hugged and kissed and madeup this eastern bazaar would become a sterilized mall.UGH.

Therefore lets keep pushing the danda .

Sweet dreams!

Forget addressing the problems of the poor and the women, Indian courts have more important issues to address.

``CHANDIGARH, India, Jan 18 (Reuters) - A court in the northern Indian state of Punjab has banned the traditional sport of bull cart racing on complaints the beasts are cruelly treated, an animal rights group said on Thursday. ``We managed to get a court order against the event,`` Payal Sodi, head of People for Animals (PFA) in the state capital of Chandigarh said. Sodi said objects were sometimes inserted into the anus of beasts to make them run faster. PFA, headed by Minister for Social Justice and Empowerment Maneka Gandhi, had long sought a ban on the most popular sport of the ``rural Olympics.`` The rural Olympics are held every year at the northeastern town of Kila Raipur in Ludhiana district of Punjab. Ludhiana Deputy Commissioner S.K. Sandhu also accused race participants of drugging and flogging bulls``

Re: scout

``What happens when most of the liberal minded, educated PAkistanis have left the country? Exactly what we`re seeing happening in Pakistan right now. There`s no one to blame but ourselves.``

You aren`t suggesting that you are ``liberal minded,`` are you? You often oppose people`s right to make choices about their lifestyle on the basis of your personal definition of morality...that`s hardly being liberal minded.

Reply #: 320

Raw_Dust

1) A woman`s testimony is not equal to man

2) A woman is not entitled to the equal share in the inheritance laws.

These two above mentioned features of ISLAM shows the crass Gender Inequality that Islam engenders.

I pointed it out in my last two posts, but surprisingly the Educated lot chose to remain oblivious ...plz come forward and negate it...

I`m sure this isn`t going to go through the heads of people who don`t want it go through their heads but i`m offering my explanation anyway :) According to Jeffery Lang in his book,Struggling to Surrender he explains it as below.

Firstly, the verse in the Quran (2:282) which states this two women equal to one man`s testimony thing is mainly dealing with protection of business agreements and the avoidance of later contention. Facing widespread illiteracy, Islam set strict standards to guarantee the terms of a business contract and, in so doing, reduced the possibility of deception and misunderstanding that often, atleast in the past, would have been settled violently. At that time, and for centuries to come in almost all societies, women were in general less educated and less proficient in financial dealings then men, and thus the Quran required the witness of a man or two women.

In eight places, the Quran has instructions relating to the giving of testimony. Two of thse refer only to swearing an oath and not to testimony in general, and the other six refer to testimony (2:282, 4:6, 4:15, 5:109, 5:110, 24:4, 24:6-9, 65:2). In all cases except 2:282, no specification on the sex of the witness is made. There are many examples in the hadith collections where women`s testimony is accepted without corroboration and, sometimes, where the testimony of a single female witness overrides the witness of several men (he`s given reference to a book, Role of Women in society by Fazlur Rahman).

Additionally, many of Muhammed (pbuh)`s sayings are accepted in the canonical collections as authentic in spite of the fact that they have only a single woman as their source. From these observations, many modern writers contend tht verse 2:282 was never meant to be a general stipulation.

He goes on for a page and a half further explaining this verse.

Now, for the inheritance laws thing...well from what I know, and I am still learning...women, for example me, I have a RIGHT on everything my dad owns or any property he owns for that matter and I also have a right on my husband`s property/wealth. BUt it is NOT vice versa. Thus when Islam proportions a bigger share to the man compared to the woman, its because his wife, daughters, sons all have a right on his property and thus he has to share it with them, however once I`m given my share, I don`t gotta share it with no one :) I`m not sure whether a mother has a right on the son`s property but I think she does.

Anyway I hope this justifies the `crass inequality in ISLAM`

Peace

Re: Some of Fairdinkum`s posts.

Sorry to disappoint you but Abdol Karim Soroush is another example of political Islam`s abillity to marginalize reformers. He is lucky to be still alive in Iran, a fact that I attribute to his not being political and the regime`s fear of inciting the masses to outright revolt if they actually execute him. Frankly, given Iran`s human rights record, I am amazed at the regime`s tolerance.

In any case, Soroush is a Shia and while Iranian Shiism is not as outre as some other brands (e.g., Ismaili or Druse), no Sunni is going to look at Soroush as THEIR Martin Luther.

Incidentally, reforming Christianity was a centuries long and very bloody process. Reformers before Luther, for example Hus, were executed by the Holy Mother Church just as `Islamic` regimes regularly executed `apostates.`

Regards.

Re: Raw_Dust #320

You are of course absolutely correct. In spite of all the drivel put out by the apologists who want to use the Koran as a literal how-to manual for living your life, women (and religous minorities) are treated as second-class citizens at best. However, as I have stopped pointing this out to Solitude, why pick on just Islam? Judaism and Christianity have just as many absurdities. Gems of wisdom such as don`t let women speak in Church, women obey their husbands (and not vice-versa), go down and slaughter all the non-jews, don`t mix meat and dairy, the whole kosher stupidity, etc. etc. etc.
If you want to drag Hinduism into it, we can look at sati or the wife-worshipping-the-husband-as-her-god, etc.

The real difference between Islam and Judaism/Christianity is that the latter have been `reformed` to make them compatible with modern life while Islam is unreformable (why does perfection need to be reformed?). The gates of ijtima were closed centuries ago and all attempts to reopen them have been firmly beaten back.

I am not the first and won`t be the last to say that the true tragedy of Islam is that it has had no successful reformation to bring it in line with modern life. The resident idiots on this board will of course go ballistic over this but who cares?

Regards.