Last Kiss

Sameer #31

You say

``Prose is better when it comes to acquire detailed knowledge or skills because of its continuous pattern whereas poetry is better for memorizing because of its pulsed or quantized pattern with rythmic quality. Human mind is programmed to focus deeply on rythms and this has led to its use in meditation/ religion``

Superb! Now I know why your posts are so enlightening to read. You always attempt to look at mundane things from a fresh perspective instead of toeing the beaten line. BTW, I never thought it this way. Somehow I got convinced long back that poetry is not my cup of tea. I always find it hard to understand symbolisms embedded in the poetry, and multiplicity of meanings make my task of interpreting arduous.

Sadhana

``poetry is like a human being, more than the sum of its parts viz sundry organic compounds + 70% water. And like humans, a lot of poetry I find hard to understand :-).``

Me too(I mean about the poetry). But hey even chemistry is not the sum of parts. Infact ``the whole`` in science is raraely a mere sum of parts. Sodium atom combines with Chlorine atom to produce Sodium Chloride, or common salt, the properties of which are different from any possible linear combination of the properties of its constituent parts. See you are pitted against two people here: a chemist and a chemical engineer:-). Just nitpicking.

Sincerely

PPS:

.... the second line should be...

Qumri ka tauq halqa-e-bairoon-e-dar....

SameerJB #40

[...The prose is flexible in structure but rigid in meaning. A prose writer will get mad if you find a different meaning in his/ her writing than what the writer intended....] and [...The jihadis/ deobandis/ wahabis seem to be reading Quran as prose and would like it to mean exactly what it meant for the bedoinns of 7th century Arabia. Now if you think it as a poetry, like Veda, the changing of meaning/ interpretation is actually a credit to the beauty of Quranic poetry and the appreciation of the Poet...]

Not necessarily so...The Supreme Court of USA is given the task of continuously re-interpreting the 8000 worded document according to changing needs and times. It can be done; is shown to be done. And sadly, some still don’t learn.


Fully agree that good poetry is multi-layered and lends to changing interpretations that seem to survive changing times.

When Ghalib wrote:

Gulshan maiN bandobast ba’rang-e-deegar hay aaj
Qumri ka halqa-e-tauq bairoon-e-dur hay aaj

he was only lamenting the hijack of India by the English. Today some can interpret it as the stranglehold of the third world, the disparity between North and South, the tyranny of the First world, even the strangle hold of the mis-named talibans in that country to the north.

Oh, without realising I slipped into discussing the ever lasting nature of immortal poetry. There is more to it than choice words, expression, metre, rhythm, thought. This is an intangible element that makes it timeless and universal. There have been thousands of good poets in the past two hundred years. Other than serious scholars of the language, how many of the rest of us know their names. How many of them are still relevant?

Back to your post. The three interpretations you provided are relevant and interpretable from the original submission. But it is more you ingenuity than the poet’s!


Let me give you this light assignment. Consider these short poems and tell me how your imagination would unravel the shades of meaning..

I
Jis roz qaza aa’aye gi
meray dar’d ko jo zubaaN milay
chalo phir say mooskuraiN
yeh mausam-e-gul
hameeN say apni nava hum kalaam hoti rahi
yeh kis khalish nay phir is dil main aashiyana kiya
kis sheh’r na shohra hua na’dani-e-dil ka

II
Sit’m ki rasmaiN buhat theN
baat bus say nikal chali hay...
Hum pur tumhari chah ka ilzaam hee tou hay
fikr-e-sood-o-ziyaan
subha phootin tou aasmaaN pay t’ray
boonyaad kooch tou ho


Will be back to shed some light on this.

regards,

t

PS: PM and fairdinkum: Hum aap kay liyay dua-e-khair karaiN gay. Ab dawa say aap ka eelaaj hona mumkin nahiN nazar aata hay.

Please read poetry instead of history in the first line of my last post.

I suspect an alliance in the making against chemistry. Allah kher kare.....

sadna #38, ``As for me, poetry is like a human being, more than the sum of its parts viz sundry organic compounds + 70% water. And like humans, a lot of poetry I find hard to understand :-).``

i agree with you...that`s the beauty of it

Sadhana: I agree with temporal definition of history as a creative art. I just looked at it from a diffent angle. My chemistry does not interfere at all when it comes to enjoying the beauty of inner and outer world.

Poetry had the faster rate of diffusion than prose in a papreless and media-free environment. Its rythmic qualities also made it resilient to corrption. At the same time, though rigid in form due to the fear of break in the rythm, poetry is more flexible when it comes to extracting the emaning from it. The meanings can easily change with the changing environment with no negative bearing on poetry and poets. Actually it is a credit to poets when people see different meanings than the poet because of the extensive use of symbolism in poetry.

The prose is flexible in structure but rigid in meaning. A prose writer will get mad if you find a different meaning in his/ her writing than what the writer intended.

The jihadis/ deobandis/ wahabis seem to be reading Quran as prose and would like it to mean exactly what it meant for the bedoinns of 7th century Arabia. Now if you think it as a poetry, like Veda, the changing of meaning/ interpretation is actually a credit to the beauty of Quranic poetry and the appreciation of the Poet.

I have no doubt in my mind that Hussain Burhani`s meant his poem to be about a boy-girl love. But consider the following three interpretations and see how they credit him for using easy and common symbolism.

1) He was passionate about his religion but the bitter experiences have turned that passion into anger, to hurt and he finally closes the chapter by swallowing the keys-Abandoning religion.

2) He was passionate about Pakistan but recent history has turned his passion into anger, hurt and he finally swallows the keys-getting green card and not wishing to go back.

3) he was madly in love with his beloved city Karachi. He kissed the ground last time when he boarded a flight to New York. The events taken place in Karachi during last several years has turned his passion into anger, hurt and he has closed the box and swallowed the keys-becoming passionate about Atlanta.

None of these was the aim of the poet. Yet he is not being ridiculed by different interpretations.

PM: Are bhai yeh chowk hey. Yahan baat se baat nikalti hey. Aur kabhi kabhi baat chemistry ki taraf bhi chali jati hey. Here is how interaction at chowk find direction.

BUTT SAHIB se butt-tameez......waisey butt kashmiri hotey hain......aur kashmir india-pakistan ke beech dushmani ke jarh hey......jarh kharboozey ke pukki hoti hey.......aur kharbooza kharboozey ko dekh je rang pakarta hey.......aur rang jaman ka pukka hota hey......aur jaman pakistan ke kuch logoN ko buhut pasand haiN.......pakistan jinnah sahib ne banaya.......aur wolpert aur ayesha jalal ne jinnah per kitabaiN likheeN........aur ayesha jalal minto ke gharaney se haiN.....aur minto ki mashhoor kahani toba tek singh hey........ab toba tek singh aik district hey.........aur ab her district maiN nazim hoa kareN gay......jamat-e-islami apne district ke head ko pehle hi se nazim kehti hey......aur JI ke lahore ke nazim haiN BUTT SAHIB.

Baat se jo baat nikalti hey asar rakhti hey

per naheeN taqat-e-parwaz magar rakhti hey

PM #32,

kya karun, baron kay agay sar jhukta hai aksar...

Sameer #31
``Because poetry is less corruptible because of rhythmic qualities, memorizable..`` ``.. Human mind is programmed to focus deeply on rhythms..``

Hey never thought of it that way, thanks!

But for even rhythmic words/sounds to evoke a sense of beauty, there needs to be overall harmony or integrity. That may be partly what temporal means.

As for me, poetry is like a human being, more than the sum of its parts viz sundry organic compounds + 70% water. And like humans, a lot of poetry I find hard to understand :-).

Sadhana

re. sharayar #35

``and some people bringing out meanings and dimensions which certainly would have eluded the poet,is certainly an interesting thing....``

yeah, kinda reminds of those expe... ahh, never mind...

Sameer (re. #31)

And what do plan on doing with life *after * demystifying all of life`s little mysteries?

:)

j/k. actually, i find your `chemical treatment` of matters quite interesting... just wonder whether that mightn`t get in the way of enjoying those experiences?!?

rgds,

PM

Just as expected....an interesting debate ensued:)

However a simple,peurile poem generating such scholarly discussion and some people bringing out meanings and dimensions which certainly would have eluded the poet,is certainly an interesting thing....

:)

In response to PM (Reply # 33)
Dear Patrick:

What is so wrong with you guys? You made me laugh, as Fairdinkum did on another board. Thanks, anyhow!

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Urstruly, in #25 quoted Dr. Younus Butt

``Shairee ka sab say bara faida yeh hay keh nah parhnay say nuqsaan nahi hota``

ji haN... aur issi tara achhi mossiki nah sunnae sey, achha `art` na daikhnay sey, aur laziz khana nah khanay sey koi nugsaan nahi hota, na bhai?

Butt sahib to waqii Butt-Tameez lagtha hai.:)

scout:

``this is solely my garbled opinion, how could i even argue with a professional :)``

Why the defensive footnote? Why the nervous smile?

temporal might have the eys/mind of a professional but, clearly, sometimes he turns his heart off when that critic`s pen is in his hand. Of course, *he * believes he`s doing the poet a service.

I say we condemn the guy to five readings of The Wasteland. What say ye??

aah temporal miaN-- kar loo jo karna hai!

nosmileyfacehereeither

P.

Hussain wrote:

and that box has been locked

and the key swallowed

yet it steals the heat from my veins

making me so cold

i know you feel that way

I think the author here is making a distinction between yearning and hopelessness, a fatalistic approach. He has come to term with the fact that from now it will ony be a memory that will keep staeling heat from blood vessels and making feel cold.

The locking of the box and key swallowed is equivalent to the impossibility of reviving the passionate relationship.

Re: Poetry

Saying more with less is a modern interpretation of an art form of creation. Poetry is actually a useful tool for memorization and that alone has evloved us into appreciating it. When there was no writing and record keeping, poetry kept the knowledge passing from generation to generation. Have you ever wonder why most myths, Homer`s work, Rig-Veda is preserved for such a long time? Because poetry is less corruptible because of rythmic qualities, memorizable and passable to a large number of people simultaneously. Any attempt to corrupt passages by few will be rejected by many others and thus the wisdom and knowledge will pass to next generation unaltered. Had Rig-Veda been in prose, it would have changed beyond recognition by now and scholars would have labelled it as ``not original``.

The rythmic qualities, the pattern and structured words are easy for mind to store in memory. No wonder, people remember whole songs, poems and ghazals for years without practicing to keep them in the memory. Same can not be said about prose. How many people do remember a word-by-word story writteen by Minto, Munshi Prem Chand or Krishan Chander? Prose is better when it comes to acquire detailed knowledge or skills because of its continuous pattern whereas poetry is better for memorizing because of its pulsed or quantized pattern with rythmic quality. Human mind is programmed to focus deeply on rythms and this has led to its use in meditation/ religion, not to speak of multi-billion dollar music industry. People can actually go into trance listening to Rig-Veda or qawwalis due to brain chemistry, attention and focus associated with rythms.

In response to fairdinkum (Reply # 29)

Dear Fairdinkum:

Your statement: ``temporal kar loo joo karna hai!!``

My reply: I just laughed (initally)! Now, I am smiling. Thanks! I am sure, temporal is smiling too.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad