Karachi Dreams

Binifer #124

In times of high emotions reason usually is useless.

The whole country violated the constituion, distributed sweets and did Bhangra on streets by welcoming the breaker of the constitution.

The police stops at every corner taking ``Bhatta`` (what a nice word law enforcers instead of Bhatta Khor).

So if our law enforcers had any respect in the eyes of people, they would refrain from doing it.

Or you want only Law enforcers to break the law.

So in effect there should be two laws for country. One for law enforces to break the law blatantly. And one for common man to not even celebrate a marriage.

Who said that.

Nisaar Mein Teri Galion Pe Ai Watan Ke Jahan

Chali Hai Rasm ke Koi Na Sur Uthaa Ke Chale.

Jo Koi Chahne Wala Tawaf Ko Nikle.

Nazar Bacha Ke Chale Jism-o-Jaan Chura Ke Chale.

Ref:#121(indulging in gross indiscipline? they were enjoying themselves... having a good time... from your report, i don`t get the impression that they meant harm to anybody... what do you think authorities should have done? opened fire at the students? my friend, why do you guys have such low tolerance?)

Enjoying oneself in discorrdance with university rules is indiscipline.

Authorities should have stopped them for by their celebrations they only reinforced the fear all students have that they(the APMSO) are stronger than any other institution in the university. And that, poses a great threat to all.

Gettit now?

Sameer JB #119

Kis Nahanjar Ka Tazkira Kur Diya.

Bajpan Mein Jamati Bhaioon Ne Dimagh Kharab Kar Rakha Thaa. Bare Hue To Dosre Bhai Aa Gaye Maidan Mein. Shukr Hai Piri Ka Karobar Manda Ja Raha Hai Aaj Kal.

But marriage of Altaf is probably a blessing for all of us for many reasons.

First his marriage to a Baluch will at least take away his anti Punjabi, Anti-Pathan anti-Sindhi Rhetoric of past.

Moreover if there is possibility of change in a person at this stage of life and his utterings are true. He is a transformed man, very positive for downtrodden people of Pakistan.

Abhi Oont Kis Karwat Bethta Hai, Dekhen.

Binifer #

What kind of comment you are expecting.

Celebrating a wedding.

Or security personnel unable to stop celebration.

Which direction you want the discussion to take place.

Binifer,

Your statement:

``Heads of Security at the State owned university of which the Governor of Sindh is Vice Chancellor, not being able to stop 40 or so boys indulging in gross indiscipline.

Comments anybody?``

indulging in gross indiscipline? they were enjoying themselves... having a good time... from your report, i don`t get the impression that they meant harm to anybody... what do you think authorities should have done? opened fire at the students? my friend, why do you guys have such low tolerance?

ALTAF HUSSAINS WEDDING CELEBRATIONS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF KARACHI



The art lobby of the university is known for its history of politics and violence. Known as the APMSO(All Pakistan Mohajir students Organization)lobby it is here that Altaf Hussain would hold court to his followers in his days as a student leader.

January 31st(2 days ago)saw the APMSO followers dancing like no tomorrow to the beat of a Dhole. Bhangra on `luddi hae jamalo` amidst naraaz of `Jieaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay Mohajir!!!Jiey Jiey Jiey Altaaaaaaaaf Hussain`, `Allah hamaree Bhabi aur |Bhai ko khush rakhae..Ameeeeeeeeeeeen`. Jang which carried a picture of the newly wed on its front page was distributed as were truckloads of mithai.

The head of secuirity, head of rangers and head of the police of KU with these petrified looks on their faces, came some 8 times trying to talk sense into these young men and women who were making a ruckus that could be heard till about 2 miles. Highly hilarious was the scene where these boys patted them on the shoulder sending them back telling them `aik mint aur`. Nedless to say that they continued till the heads came again to reprimand them. This went on for some 45 minutes after which mithai was distributed. A policeman was seen stuffing all the mithai that he could in his face.

Heads of Security at the State owned university of which the Governor of Sindh is Vice Chancellor, not being able to stop 40 or so boys indulging in gross indiscipline.

Comments anybody?

Pm bhai, Krashid bhai and Shankar bhai:

Did you hear about Altaf bhai tying the knot with the daughter of Gabol bhai? I am sure he did not invite Afaq bhai to his wedding. Actually Afaq bhai has to dissociate from Musharraf bhai before Altaf bhai will consider him making a bhai again. Scout, do not be mean to Urstruly bhai.

re. anNy #117

``Does that mean you`re going to be all nice and pleasant to me now that you`re aware I was born a decade or so after you? ``

NooooOOOO. It simply means that if I have to be nasty, I`m gonna do it in a nice, gentle way. :0)

PM Reply#111

``PS. I had no idea you were as yound a you say you are. Sorry about the aggressive tone I once used in an interact with you. You are .... , aren`t you…``

Does that mean you`re going to be all nice and pleasant to me now that you`re aware I was born a decade or so after you? Kindly refrain from doing so. I cant have all you unkals going soft on me. Please subject me to the same grilling that u do that spunky scout.

Keep the aggressive interacts coming. I thrive on them:0)

yourskidneyheartspleen all in place,

anNy

P.S= Thank you, most emphatically, for getting my point.

#115

ok :)

scout

#114

Whats the fun of having a kid sister if you cant tease her?!

shankar bhai #113,

jalapeno?

oh boy, u`re doing the provoking this time.

:)

PM,

Scout warns

{{just don`t provoke me... :)}}

Eventhough she says it with a smiley face, mark her words. Phew! she`s a cute little jalapeno mirchi when provoked.

PS--er, ``cute`` was said in a brotherly way..

krashid #103:

Krahid bhai, addressing aNnY, you write:

``It is a good idea to keep your wrath to your own people....Don`t try to put daggers in the heart of poor...Their small happiness and small sadness are too big for them. Leave it like that...

And don`t mention too much. I am already convinced that your father is a big shot. So what. You don`t even have the basic etiquettes.``

Please don`t make this is class issue. aNnY has quite clearly shown not only sympathy but empathy for the less fortunate in society. There is no need to scrutinze her intentions any deeper to find some base motive that isn`t there. She may be born to a privelged family, but you cannot hold that against her.

``Blaming the poor girl for suicide.``

I don`t think aNnY blamed the liitel girl; she lamented the state of a society in which a little girl would attach so much importance to a new johra. Perhaps she can be faulted for not being able to see things from the poor girls perspective, but that is an intellectual, not moral, shortcoming.

``I will urge you to donate more and write much more about it. So every body can appreciate your TENDER heart.``

Please remember this is a 19-yo you are writing to. The sarcasm is uncalled for.

rgds,

PM

re. aNnY:

[P.S= Scout Reply#100

``I`m sorry to barge into your talks with Asim, but I just want you to know that your heart is in the right place``

And so is my kidney]

Good, now make sure your spleen is too! :)

rgds,

PM

PS. I had no idea you were as yound a you say you are. Sorry about the aggressive tone I once used in an interact with you. You are .... , aren`t you?

krashid, AnNy, Asim: I think you all agree that display of wealth is cheap and low class and we have too much of it in Pakistan. I think krashid thinks that does not mean that a child should be deprived of the joy of new clothes on Eid, and AnNy thinks that it does. I think everyone`s heart is in the right place (and kidneys too, in case of AnNy). But surely there is a difference between the joy a child feels in getting new clothes (particularly one of the millions of children in Pakistan who are born in rags and hunger) and the joy a grown up turkey feels in wearing expensive clothes or jewellry or transporting his/her fat behind in an expensive vehicle. I think that is the point krashid is making, and something worth thinking about.

Mr.ASIM and MISSING THE POINT EACH TIME.

``…because you are starving yoursevl on boiled egg and elaicheeyan, it is not changing the status quo of those with whom you are empathising…``

Mr. Asim Sir. For the last time, stop getting personal for absolutely no reason at all. My intention of pointing out my now ready to be puked breakfast was to convey to you that it is because I can enjoy a breakfast and not have to go scrimping, that I feel privileged. But did you try to understand that? oh no. You dear sir, are hell bent upon making me sound like a rich bych whooz dieing in her own self worth and oh so lovely deeds. My purpose of telling you about that incident with my friend was to convey that there is hope and there are good people, when u pointed out how the rich don’t care. Yes her feeding the kids did not make a difference to the 10,000 other kids who are hungry. Being the governors daughter, she takes full advantage of this position and does everything that she can and cannot to help those not as lucky. Unlike me though, she keeps her trap shut. As for my not making new clothes on eid Sir, thats my way of protesting however `immature` that might be. Like you said, u live in your fools paradise and I will in mine. Mine refuses to get all hoity toity about people who are trying to make a difference in their own stopid insignificant ways in the face of a lot of crap already. Please skip that last sentence. I`m afraid you`ll accuse me of wallowing in self pity again. But you know what Mr.Asim? There are many like you. Instead of trying to understand the point of all this banging on the keyboard, you will enjoy picking on others:

``…Anny and misguided philanthropy…``

``…Re: Anny and suicidal thoughts…``

(and you say my writing style reeks of patronizing) but rest assured. A kabillion uncles like you wouldn’t be able to make me make new clothes on eid(yes same material to pick on in the next post). Its my way of protesting and reminding myself that there is more, much more than clothes to Eid and life and the world be damned if they don’t like it.

``…But your words are your biggest enemy…``

Not so. They are my greatest buds and it is with them that I`m going to fight and overcome cynics and critics alike.

Also please hold on for a day before you post your next reply. I have a presentation due tomorrow morning that will go towards making me into the `somebody` that you wish for me to be and I will not be able to resist replying.

Reply #: 107

krashid

``…That girl did wrong to suicide...``



I agree(with your statement & not the sarcasm). Emphatically. Sir you and I are on the same side and thus arguing for no reason at all. If I appeared to be wallowing in self pity or flouting my privilege at any point, I urge you to read my posts again. If you still feel I am doing the above, then I apologize. My question (YET AGAIN) is why these values? Agreed that new clothes are a part of eid. I am reminded of the fact that it is `mustahib` to make new clothes on every Eid. But to place so much emphasis on the making of clothes (I am not referring to Eid and clothes here, just clothes as a material thing) is what I feel is not right. Take an example Sir. 40 years from today, would a young girl have committed suicide if she was not able to make new clothes? My own mother tells me that in her times as a child, when unable to make clothes due to financial constrains on eid there was none of the hysteria that overtakes my sisters, cousins and friends if they are unable to make clothes for absolutely any occasion or reason at all. Why this gaping differences in the generations? THAT is what I was and am trying to point out. Why have we, as a nation or even as humans, become so materialistic? To ridicule the young girl was never my intention. More so, I was asking why she had been driven to such despair that she committed suicide. The values that prevail don’t you think? I rest my case.

anNy

PM various posts,

I don`t feel like arguing anymore. We`re running around in circles posting painfully long messages.

As dr. shankar says, let`s agree to disagree for now.

``for now`` being the key phrase.

just don`t provoke me... :)

ANNY #104

I still did not get the point.

Do you think your values are Universal.

I love to eat at home but due to many circumstances I had to eat outside most of my young life. (To tell you in a more proving fashion I would miss dinner in Marriage to eat home cooked food).

Eid is one of a few occasions and if I remember my childhood and when I see my children, everybody is excited about Eid, new clothes, vermicelli, Eidi etc. That is not only tradition but Islamic custom also.

That girl did wrong to suicide.

She should have used less violent measures like crying etc. And many thousands of children might have cried because of lack of clothes so that some people can fill their ego by seeing them eating food given by them at some other time on Tariq Road and later boasting for kind deed.

You want to give sympathy to them only if it goes through you.

Re: Anny and misguided philanthropy

Its with some interest i have been reading you various postings. I am beginning to see that you mean well. But your words are your biggest enemy, as i indicated before. and certainly not krasid or myself. Both of us mean well and are happy that your feel strongly about the exhibitionism we happen to be caught in. By not being party to such blatant display of wealth, you do make a point. I think krashid`s point, and to a certain extent mine too, hinges on the fact that , because you are starving yoursevl on boiled egg and elaicheeyan, it is not changing the status quo of those with whom you are empathising. I hope you see my point.

little poor girls with labourer fathers might continue to commit suicides while you wallow in your self pity, and feeling guilty about the amenities your father has provided for you. This si not the way forward, as i hinted before, and scout suggested.

A more practical approach is to use that ``privilege`` to become ``somebody``, a lawyer, a doctor, a professional, a socila worker, through dint of hard work, and good education, if you can afford it. All the time not losing sight of your goals. These could be numerous. Raising funds for the poorer maids within your ``locality`` so that they could possibly not have to go without new clothes, on Eid or at least once a year, would reward you much more than just starving yourself, after looking at a ``gorgeous`` young man picking the rubbish bins. Infact, you need to get rid of your immaturities, and starighten up to become a confident young woman, possibly much differnt from your colleagues, who might be just dreaming about meeting prince charming and heading off to the sunset. Or hoping that daddy finds one. I am not saying its not good to dream, but one must dream big.

A lot of sensible pakistani girls are coerced into marrying too early, for the sake of ``accah ristah nika jaeey ga``. Its an oxymoron, sensible girls who could not make the biggest decision of their lives themselves, I agree. But family pressures can be a big factor. So if you have eyes set on making a change in what you see wround yourself, become ``somebody``.

Let me rephrase, you depriving off yoursefl off new dresses, and food is not changing an iota in the lives of the average little girl whose father can not afford a new set of clothes for his babay girl. We all live in our fool`s paradise. I am happy in mine, and i will let you be happy in yours.

Sincerely,

Asim

Re: sarwari #88

``Karachi is the coolest city in the world!``

Obviously you have never been to Timbuctu. A close second is of course my Lahore.

Asim

Reply # 103

Mr.Krashid Sir. May you read with interest and agony this post as much as u did the other. I refuse to go into any more personal details to prove my point for that’s quite apparently not getting the point through.

You say: ``I am already convinced that your father is a big shot``

With apologies at having to destroy your illusions Sir, he`s anything but. He is a good man who has instilled in all his children (well, almost all) the annoying values of truth, simplicity and goodness. I say annoying because in this place and this time, wanting to stop when the light is red, causes people to die of laughter. And it is due to what I have been taught that I consider myself privileged. At the risk of sounding unbelievably sappy ( cheezy corny whatever) might I tell you why I call myself that. Its because we have had drilled in us the simple fact that because we have food to eat at every meal and a house that we call our own- we are privileged. How many people out there can say the same? There are a kabillion people out there who have to eat out of kachra kundis. Just today before I came home and saw your message, I saw this gorgeous looking young man eating the peels of a rotten banana at itwaar bazaar (buss no more stories). I came home and had a boiled egg with ilaiche wali chai. You get? So by being told since the very beginning that we are very very privileged, unlike so many, my siblings and I take none of what we have for granted. (Even if that might not be a lot on certain occasions, I must again disappoint you) And if all this still makes you feel I`m a big shot with no etiquette`s, so be it. But might I mention here that it is the same `big shot father` who also inculcated in me the manners that prevent me from saying what I so badly wish to right now; that elders must be respected at any cost. Even those who refuse to see the point and pick out lil bits just for the heck of picking at me? Annoying values, like I said.

This entire discussion is getting way to personal now. My question was,

``Are the values of clothes and other material things what we want to prevail in our society?`` Well actually they already do, in the rich as well as the poor- but is there nothing that can be done about it? I remember reading in the Dawns Ed-op pages a few months ago some man who was lamenting the same thing. What is wrong with us as a nation? There was a time when obnoxious looking Pajeros were a thing to be looked down upon. Today the man riding one is automatically treated with respect and reverence. ``Why? Will somebody please tell me what went wrong with us?``

anNy

P.S= Scout Reply#100

``I`m sorry to barge into your talks with Asim, but I just want you to know that your heart is in the right place``

And so is my kidney.

ANNY #97

I read with interest and agony your whole post.

It is a good idea to keep your wrath to your own people.

Don`t try to put daggers in the heart of poor.

Their small happiness and small sadness are too big for them. Leave it like that.

And don`t mention too much. I am already convinced that your father is a big shot. So what. You don`t even have the basic etiquettes.

Blaming the poor girl for suicide.

I will urge you to donate more and write much more about it. So every body can appreciate your TENDER heart.

Chowk Staff,

I am wondering whether the Press Room is on a vacation, have they personally gone to India to provide aid or do they not think that the Earthquake was a serious issue and doesn`t deserver to be written about?

In the past you`ve been more thatn eager to discuss even issues like `Japanese Premier Resigns` and `Economic Development Conference at MIT `.....what`s happened now?

further to my last post to scout...

scout, something you said in your last post should bring out exactly what it is I constantly protest (you say `bash`) on this site. You

wrote...

``To tell you the truth, I personally don`t care what the Prophet did or did not do, and I would never defend something I`d rather not. Who knows what happened hundreds of years ago, and what we know is heresay. I`m talking about TODAY, not yesterday, the days of prophets and Noah`s arks, and other interesting tales. Let`s talk about TODAY`s Islam and TODAY`s Muslims, and let`s talk about TODAY`s religion. Forget the past. Moses, Jesus, whatever.... ``

And just yesterday YOU were attacking me for

I`d like to raise my glass to that suggestion (noting, however, how you neglect to add the big M`s name.. but never mind, I can understand where you`re coming from).

BUt seriously, while I wouldn`t want to forget it ALL (ther are valuable lessons on life in those traditions, after all), I should point out that you consitiute about .00001% of Muslims who feel that way. For the vast, vast, majority of Muslims

, what the Prophet said and did IS OF COMPLETE RELEVANCE to their present-day life. If not what the Prophet said and did, then certainly what the Quran teaches.

Given your own thoughts on the matter, I find it difficult to imagine how or why you get so upset when others question a religion.

rgds,

PM

Anny #97,

I`m sorry to barge into your talks with Asim, but I just want you to know that your heart is in the right place. It`s nice seeing young Pakistanis like yourself and your friend showing some compassion to less fortunate people.

However, I`d also like to say, that your good intentions and your friend`s (the one playing with the little kids), would be better off directed at volunteer efforts at local orphanages, schools, hospitals etc.. And while you`re at that threshold, it would be better for young people like yourself and your friend to encourage their rich fathers and relatives to contribute their wealth to help build schools, hospitals, etc....

THAT my sweet fellow Pakistani, would make a huge difference to the poor than not buying a new jora for Eid.

re. scout and EVERYONE ELSE :))

I`ll keep this si short as possible (yes, it *is * getting tiresome-- not a good way to start the weekend off!)

scout, you say...

``It`s your personal prejudice if you think Islam is worse than other religions. I don`t think so.``

Now, either you have some serious comprehension problems or you are deliberalety twisting my words to suit your contention that I am bashing Islam.

For your benefit, I am reposting my actual words here:

PM #67: `` It is born of, and feeds, the belief, that Muslims, or Islam, could never be worse of than anyone else on a given matter. And that is

exactly what you propose, don`t you, in your great attempt to equalize.``

Now, if you an`t see a difference in what I said and what you claim I said, well.. three is no use debating any further.

``But I do think Muslims in general are holing themselves up into a big mess these days. Religion is what people make of it.``

Yeah, and no need to ask why this might be so, right? Like tahmed put it: ``All this has NOTHING to do with Islam.``

``Islam is no different in inherent philosophy than

Christianity, Judaism. One Ultimate God, etc. etc. right? Then why not equalize the religions?``

Islam is actually quite different from either Christianity or orthodox Judaism(though much closet to Judiasm. A common belief in One God counts for very little. Read Urstruly`s last post to tahmed on the ``Interst-Free banking`` board.

`` Why hold one in contempt and dismiss the others?``

Hold one in contempt???? Your insecurities are REALLY getting the better of your judgement. But we shan`t get into that now...

``If you want to criticize Muslims, go ahead, criticize the fundamentalist idiots, Mullahs out there. But for you to attack Muslims just for speaking out against Islam bashing is unfair.``

First, I don`t ``ATTACK`` Muslims for speaking out against Islam bashing. I merely question them. There`s a difference, y`know? Secondly, I choose t o criticize the religion (be it Islam or whatever) becasue, IMO, they are at least partly responsible for the way their adherents turn out. You are entitled to your own opinion on where blame must be laid.

`` And don`t you think that Muslims are sensationalized as terrorists in the Western media as well? Where is your condemnation of this media now? How does it feel to be labeled? Not very good. So think twice before labeling Muslims and Islam.``

Please tell me wher I have ever upheld the media images of Islam terrorism.

...

More later,

gotta go now...

by the way.. I will not be addressing the child-sex issue. It has been debated ad infinitum on the board I mentioned. If you care, to go there and post your questions after reading the article/interacts.

so long...

PM

PS. IMO = In my opinion.

Re: sac #90

``BTW there are some nice Bushras and Razias out there. I swear!!``

Its a little too late for ``finding`` them in my case, for i have met my match. and thankfully she loves me more than God. Or so she would have me believe. Women can be so devious sometimes, just like men... hehehe

May your above words motivate you to find the value of perfection!

Re: Rsaxena

Yes, you are right, i have been in a ajolly good mood. i do so love the rainy season in california. Everything gets washed by the acid rains here,including one`s cynicism; thereby forcing one to be thankful for being just alive to see the sheer beauty within this world.

BTW did you hear of this loser who is suing people for use of the sad face sign in emails, as the sad face sign was apprently registered by this fellow back in 1998. He is asking about 7 million people, who used sad face in their emails, to write an aplogy to him, stating,..``I will not use sad face sign again, as it is a copyright infringement to Mr So and So`` .

so dont go around making :-( sign, another reason to become jovial and to embrace life to the full.

Sincerely,

Asim

Reply #: 86 Asim Hayat

``…Eid is a children`s delight, they are the ones who love to get all dressed up, and get eeeidee, and go out to celebrate or to eat sweetmeats. Why do u want to take that right away from them…``

Good Lord no! Its my family and friends with their utter wastage on Eid that I`d like to take Eid away from.

``…your explanation of how it is insignificant for your to not have new clothes on Eid, is not a valid argument to counter the poor little girl`s plight…``

Nope. Its `significant` for me to not make clothes on Eid Sir not insignificant. By wearing what I do when we have visitors over or when we ourselves go visiting, I present my lil theory to anyone that`ll listen. Some roll their eyes dipping the prawns on a toothpick in tartar sauce while others tussle my hair and tell my poor tormented parents how wonderfully spirited I am. Some give me an extra grand for Eidhi, stifling their consciences. And then there are those who listen to what I say with a faraway thoughtful look in their eyes. It is these people that I make a difference to. If my `juvenile way` of protesting effects even one person- not making new clothes for Eid has made all the difference in my books.

You tell me I am privileged. Yes I am. My father is not a laborer to answer your question. It is with the privilege that I am burdened with that I will inshaAllah bring a difference.

But that`s really not the point here. What I was trying to say was what Mr.Tahmed says in his post reply #85:

``…the fact that we were taught things like the importance of truth and simplicity, not that of showing off. I have noticed this gap in value systems among Pakistanis after that as well - in the US, I see people for whom the main topic is their mercedes and shopping or politics…``

It is these values that I called your attention to in the first and second post. Why such values? What went wrong? Why clothes? Can Eid not be an occasion to love, smile and give(those of us who can that is)?

``…That is why Islam, asks the affluent and the rich to share their blessings with the poor. But do the rich even acknowledge the poor. save for the fitrana, and that too at the shraee rate of Rs 175 per person, people pay that and think they are absolved of any further contribution…``

Let me recount another story for you (I have so many:] )It was on the 17th of Ramzan that I and a bunch of friends were looking around at the shops at `The Point`` after a most expensive and horribly done, flat Iftaree at a most obnoxious place TGIF. Walking towards our cars with Mehendi and Chooorian, munching on Pringles and high on our `privilege` nobody paid much attention to the lil Afghan boys clamoring after the guys in the lot to buy us wilted flowers. We sat in the car when all of a sudden someone realized a friend was missing. Upon looking all over the place, we found her sitting on a lil pavement in the parking lot yakking away with a whole bunch of them 12 and 13 year old boys like her Dad owned the bloody footpath. Completely at ease with her, the boys were all munching on Oreo`s and drinking Frooto while she demonstrated how to make a slingshot with a rubberband. When she saw us coming towards her, she motioned with her eyes for us to stay at a distance. Probably didn`t want to break the link she had established with the children were they to see us with what we stand for written all over us. I`m positively dieing here to tell you whose daughter she is and make my point right on target but that would be a gross invasion of her privacy.

Now you may say that they kids probably had an upset tummy for the next 2 weeks after those rich biscuits or that she did her good deed for the year and calmed her conscience. But that wouldn`t be the point yet again. The privileged (a very small percentage I agree) do do their bit, albeit sometimes. But the sensitivity shown that day by my friend shook up all of us that were present there. If nothing else, she made 11 carefree brats think about things they hadn`t for a long long time.

``…Once again, let me admit, you are not catty and stupid, just a bit reckless with words…``

Jazbatee is the word they all use:0)

much love,

anNy

To all readers besides PM:

PLEASE do not read the following verbose post, because it will be torturous to you unless you`re devastatingly interested in PM and my weird discussions.

PM #67, `` It is born of, and feeds, the belief, that Muslims, or Islam, could never be worse of than anyone else on a given matter. And that is

exactly what you propose, don`t you, in your great attempt to equalize.``

It`s your personal prejudice if you think Islam is worse than other religions. I don`t think so. But I do think Muslims in general are holing themselves up into a big mess these days. Religion is what people make of it. Islam is no different in inherent philosophy than Christianity, Judaism. One Ultimate God, etc. etc. right? Then why not equalize the religions?

Why hold one in contempt and dismiss the others?

If you want to criticize Muslims, go ahead, criticize the fundamentalist idiots, Mullahs out there. But for you to attack Muslims just for speaking out against Islam bashing is unfair.

``Which is not to say that I would not point out that the (Western) public perception of Catholic priests as `molestors` is, IMO, little more than the success of sensationalism in the Western media when it comes to sex.``

And don`t you think that Muslims are sensationalized as terrorists in the Western media as well? Where is your condemnation of this media now? How does it feel to be labeled? Not very good. So think twice before labeling Muslims and Islam.

``I have on other occassions, tried to defend the Prophet`s marriage to a pre-teen as something that has to be seen in the context of the times. Was that an exhibition of insecurity too, rather than an effort to correct erroneuous perceptions?``

To tell you the truth, I personally don`t care what the Prophet did or did not do, and I would never defend something I`d rather not. Who knows what happened hundreds of years ago, and what we know is heresay. I`m talking about TODAY, not yesterday, the days of prophets and Noah`s arks, and other interesting tales. Let`s talk about TODAY`s Islam and TODAY`s Muslims, and let`s talk about TODAY`s religion. Forget the past. Moses, Jesus, whatever....

``My dear scout... go ahead, point out all the wrong in Christianity. ``

What`s the purpose? Why make religion into such a big issue? I`d rather see the right in religion, than the wrong. Once again, it`s not about concepts, the concept of Christianity is harmless, it`s about people, and the people who misuse religion.

`` As far as psychological maturity goes, I`m sure you can make the judgement yourself, comparing the way adolecents thought back when you & I were

one and the way they do now. ``

You`re confusing psychological maturity with knowledge of the birds and the bees. Kids these days know more about sex than I ever did in my adolescence. But do they know the psychology behind it? Do they have the experience to know what is right and wrong? True psychological maturity comes with age, and adolescents aren`t mature in those terms, no matter how knowledgeable they may be.

``So I just don`t buy it when folks say that `fear and confusion` on the part of adolescents drives them into sexual relationships.``

It`s fear, confusion, and not knowing what`s right and what`s wrong. I`ve never read about any case in which adolescents were very happy and satisfied about their sexual relations with older men (priests in this case). Most of them grew up to be psychologically affected in some negative manner. I think you`re making light of a terribly serious situation. Consider yourself a father for a second, and consider your own son has just been molested by some Priest. What would you do?

``I am saying that the `kid` (a nice word to use to emphasize `innocence`) need not be confused to enter into a physical relationship with an adult.. clergy or otherwise. You find that disturbing? well, it`s ok... your parents probably found the idea that you wanted to date that sixten yo in high school equally disturbing :). ``

PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE don`t compare sexual relationships with minors to the daily woes of teenagers. An adult has much more experience with the trials and tribulations of life to make judgements for him/herself, a kid doesn`t.

And if an adult does enter into a relationship with a kid, he/she is taking advantage of innocence. I can`t believe I`m arguing this point with you.

``What I am REALLY saying is that such incidents need not be tarred with the same brush as those involving violence and force.``

Excuse meeeeeeeee? I think such incidents are all equally tarred, violence or no violence. Sexual abuse is physical, it IS a form of violence. A kid who suffers through such anguish is left disturbed, whether the violater uses physical force or mental force. Hey this isn`t rocket science you know?

``Most cultures in the past (read any sociology/anthropolgy lately) did NOT know that 14-16 yo were incapable of making decisions about

their sexuality. ``

FORGET The past! Circumstances in the past were different than they are now. Do you want to go back to hunting and gathering? Wake up, things have changed. Kids are kids now, not young adults, thank God.

Writing this long post has made me feel quite pukey. I feel sorry for whoever is reading it besides you. I know I didn`t address all of your arguments, but I only have two hands, which get tired after a long day of work.

PS: What the heck does IMO mean?

Asim Hayat #81

Zoo Ma`ani.

I inntend to do nothing because I already know it will not happen.

But if the message gets across that is enough.

re. Asim Hayat:

``More so, because i fell scout did raise some valid arguments against your scout-bashing ones earlier. The trouble being that you failed to acknowledge those,``

I believe I successfully rebutted, not just acknowledged.

``..and once again wrote an exitensial piece primarily throwing in old arguments clothed in new assertions``

So?? Would you rather I went rhetorical and hysterical like scout?

btw, since we`re back in puerile mode, what the heck is `exitensial` anyway? :)

re Asim Hayat #64,#65:

Funny stuff!!

Thanks for making the distinction between litrol and chitrol clear. There are some on this forum who need both :)

Bushra was chosen exactly to prove your point(and mine). Bushra and 36-24-34 don`t go together. Considering fairdinkum`s admission anything is possible......

BTW there are some nice Bushras and Razias out there. I swear!!

later

-sac

anNy #82 Great to see that there are people in Pakistan whose values are more than skin deep. When I was growing up (which was in the 1960`s, way before your time I am sure), we too had similar values drilled into us. I realized the vast gap with others when I went to a hostel in Lahore and ran into people from different parts of Pakistan: My roommate was shocked to find that I had only one blazer (he had a number of coats) and wondered whether I was really from a well-off family or just a low-life pretender. I never burdened him with the fact that we were taught things like the importance of truth and simplicity, not that of showing off. I have noticed this gap in value systems among Pakistanis after that as well - in the US, I see people for whom the main topic is their mercedes and shopping or politics. So thank God again that there are indeed Pakistanis like you who have some values and class, among the newly rich cheapsters on the one hand and the moron mullahs and would be prime ministers and Ataturks on the other.

Anny #82

It is heard that one of Z.A.Bhutto`s son used to live in a trailer house to live like poors.

I appreciate your intention. But it should not cover your eyes to the fact that for many people Eid is the occasion or sometimes only occasion to make new clothes.

scout:#69

Thanks for asking for translation.

This invigorating taraana for the muslims was specially written by Jamil-ud-Din Aali,for the occasion of the first Islamic summit at Islamabad.It was sung by Mehdi Zaheer---that great,great singer who went unsung as a hero.A scholar and a maestro of music and several languages,his recorded songs were hits in the middle east in the 70s.

Hummmm: We all

Ta`baabd: Until the very end

Saee: relentless effort

taghayyur: to bring about change

Vali: hold dominion over

Deen:Our religion(creed)

Mukkammal:perfected

Istaimaar:hegemony/imperialism

baatil: the Evil Lie.

arzal:the cursed

I would have loved to send you a proper translation,in poem form but I am in a rush right now and this was getting delayed unnecessarily.

S.P:I stopped sending translations because I was thrilled to see so many of us now inter-acting in urdu too.The translation exercise benefits me also and I am glad to hear that it was not just self-gratifying for me.

__________________________________________________

wassalaam.

Asim #66:

Actually, I haven`t been reading too much of Chekhov lately. Hope that is not necessarily a bad thing either. :) As far as short stories go, I`m more into contemporary writers nowadays. Raymond Carver? I prefer his poetry to his stories and essays. As for the snake story - no, don`t remember reading any where a serpent is living in a pool. Perhaps my memory is ailing as well. :) The only story I recall is the one where the ``snake`` was under the bed. An absurd yet fascinating short story by Ambrose Bierce - can`t remember the exact name - ``The Snake and the Man``? Or was it ``The Man and the Snake``? I think there was a short film based on the story as well.

t #68:

Hey, a nice read. Would like to read more. Won`t say it brought back memories - they don`t go that far back :) - but it did stir some nostalgic feelings coupled with a sense of loss. And when does this get added to that list?

Re: PM #84

``tsk, tsk... why the unprovoked barb?``

Because it is fun, and puerile as you amply demonstrated earlier :)

More so, because i fell scout did raise some valid arguments against your scout-bashing ones earlier. The trouble being that you failed to acknowledge those, and once again wrote an exitensial piece primarily throwing in old arguments clothed in new assertions.

Awaiting the duel between yourself and scout, avidly.:) If i know scout, from her wortings before, i can assure you, she is going to be true to her words, . You Sir, are a fallen man, or as she puts it,..``You are going down``.

Asim

Assalmlaikum.

Its obvious you hold great skill and talent of expression. Well written, I hope you`d once choose a topic that is positive in tone and soothing to the ill-minds who are so engossed in the beauty of writing that they forget they propagate beauty of expression at the expence of doing what needs to be done.

Karachi is the coolest city in the world! Where else can you get a tea served when you want to wire money and shop from Nike to niharee at 3 in the morning?

Wassalam.

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari.

Some good things going on in Karachi:

www.edhiweb.com

Specifically, check out the following link:

http://www.edhiweb.com/services/edhi_homes_of_animals.htm and

http://www.edhiweb.com/services/international_community_centers.htm

This guy is really amazing. Apart from his philanthrapic energy, I am in awe of his administration and management skills.

Dear Anny,

Your initial posting was intensely provocative, and bordering on contempt, at least to my sensibilites. However, in retrospect, after reading your second posting, some things were made clearer, while some still remain a mystery. We are all presumptious, one way por the other. The internet doe snot lend a vista into a reader`s heart. by that token, i understand i was rash, and too qucik with my judgement which is regretted.

However, there ids still aproblem i have with your posting. Being a nineteen year old, and presumably, having a father who is not a labourer, your explanation of how it is insignificant for your to not have new clothes on Eid, is not a valid argument to counter the poor little girl`s plight. The charm of Eid, i must admit, wanes off, as it did, in my case when i turned 15. Eid is a children`s delight, they are the oens who love to get all dressed up, and get eeeidee, and go out to celbrate or to eat sweetmeats. Why do u want to take that right away from them. One hadees,( and not hadith), claims that prophet saw a little girl crying on account of her dad not being able to provide her a new dress for eid, and HE(pbuh), took the child in his arms, and got her a new dress, which made her happy, or something to that effect.

Granted this is not 6th century arabia, still Eid, brings a lot of peer pressure for kids. I know our richer ``cousins`` from karachi used to sport several new clothes on Eid, while we had to make do with one new set of clothes. Even as a 8 yr old child i recall asking my mom, how come they (my cousins), get to have so many new clothes and shoes, while we only get to have one pair of shoes and a shalwar qameez suit. You may say, i was a greedy little bum, (which no doubt i was, and to a certain extent still am). But i hope you see the point, that kids are highly aware of ``stuff``, even though we might not give them credit for it.

You say you try to restrict yoursefl to not spend money on such display on Eids. Your case is still not comparable to that littel girls. You have one thing which she never had. Choice to do something. You admit you have the finacial resources to get a new dress each Eid, yet you dont. That poor girl, may Allah rest her distrubed soul in heavens, never had such a choice. You ahve had the benefit of a household, where you possibly did not have to worry about where the next meal was going to come from. Perhaps that girl or her father never had the luxury of knowing even that. How do u think that poor, helpless, unfortunate fatrher of that girl must have felt.

What is a price of a little girls dress. Surely it is not worth the life of a little girl. That is why Islam, asks the affluent and the rich to share their blessings with the poor. But do the rich even acknolwedge the poor. save for the fitrana, and that too at the shraee rate of Rs 175 per person, people pay that and think they are absolved of any further contribution.

Once again, let me admit, you are not catty and stupid, just a bit reckless with words. Words is all we can judge you from., regrettably on a 2-D medium such as the internet.

Sincerely,

Asim

P.S I do recall enjoying the artcile you had written earlier. That was a sincere protrayal of your feelings with aptly chosen words.

a massive earthquake has hit india and pakistan,

ahmadabad in gujrat is worst hit with hundreds of people dead while 4 people have been killed in hyderabad and badin in sindh province of pakistan.

the jolts of 26 january morning has once again made it clear that nature does not know any boundries.

re. Asim on PM`s ``high faluting, verbose`` posts.

Asim,

tsk, tsk... why the unprovoked barb?

re. the possibilities allowing for my verbosity, surely therecould be more than the two you`ve mentioned??

rgds,

Reply #76 & 75

Thank you for your lovely offer Mr. Krashid Sir:) It is not a lack of anything alhamdolillah that causes my lack of hysteria for making new clothes on Eid. It is sanity.

Also if you will refer to this piece you will understand how I am unlike other normal girls wanting to look all nice and pretty:0)

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?anny_nov0300



Mr. Hayat you tell me I am catty and stupid and that this has all the things in the world to do with my privilege and English medium school education. (while I could get into a whole big argument about your presumptions, I will refrain out of respect for the sense you talk in most of your posts and your commendable piece on Atchison ) The actual fact dear Sir, is that I refuse to make clothes like my sisters and myriad of friends on Eid (they just need an excuse really) because of the humanity that my `English medium school` inculcated in me. It is my way of protesting or(call it what you like) making a lil dent in the overwhelming fakeness around me. I promise you I`ll start making clothes for every lil occasion when our maid khathoo is able to get a house where she doesn`t have to stand guard outside the bathroom shared by the entire `juggi` while her daughter bathes. Her 8 year old daughter (`little girl` enough for you?) who was raped by three middle aged men just 11 days ago. I could go on and on- but then you`d tell me I was obnoxious and dieing in my own self righteousness along with being catty ,stupid and what was that….privileged.

My intention was not to be patronizing in the least. You very conveniently missed what I was trying to say in earnest; my point being that has the society become so sad that one feels compelled to take ones own life because the father is unable to get new clothes? The underlying question being that one little girl felt sad and worthless and her anguish was such that she went to the extent of killing herself because she didn`t have a new pair of shalwar kameez. Are those the values we want for our society and our children?

Yours cattily, stupidly and privelegedly,

anNy

P.S= You ask if I`m a little girl. I`m 19. Little enough to want shiny new trinklets for Eid or not, you decide.

Re: krashid #76

``Don`t do suicide. Please contact me by any means, I will take care of that.``

Krashid sahib,

Fairly reasonable advice except for the last sentence. Its quite ambiguous.

Asim

fairdinkum
btw, the religion+spouse discussion was very amusing :)

fairdinkum #78
Hey, by coincidence I watched this year`s parade soon after typing the previous post. I personally have no problem with the military weapons show, I noticed it took about 1/4th-1/3rd? the total time..

You might like these stories about five of the children who won bravery awards this year. There must be similar childrens` awards in Pakistan?
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/26hope.htm

Sadhana

Sadna,

Indian media was complaining about over militarization of Republic day celebrations this year... perhaps, its unusal to have that many weapons on display on this day? Lots of ordinary Indians didn`t like it either... BBC covered it beautifully... they did show cultural aspects, but they were overshadowed by display of huge missiles and tanks etc...

anyway, I don`t mean to be critical of India or anything... just an observation... a reflection on the kind of environment we currently have in the subcontinent... I hope it will improve one day.

AnNy,

you should see and befriend some fairdinkum Pakistanis/indians... you know the kind that live in the nearby government flats... and if your parents object, you should hold your ground... tell them you have a lot to learn about this vicious, unjust, and cruel real world.

Anny #73

When do you make new clothes.

The clothes you are wearing is out of fashion for 7 years in a row.

So if you donot get excited on coming of Eid day because of lack of cloth or lack of something else, I offer you that once your human emotions and excitement return and you are still unable to make clothes and plan a suicide due to lack of money. Don`t do suicide. Please contact me by any means, I will take care of that.

Re: Anny and suicidal thoughts

Anny commented: ``I havent made new clothes for eid in the past 8 years. It hasnt brought any urges of self destructiveness to life within me``

on the original posting,..````...a little girl who committed suicide because her father (a labourer) could not afford to buy a new dress for her on eid``

I have but two simple questions for our Anny.

Drums roll!

Question No 1: Anny, are you a little girl?Question No 2: Is your father a labourer?

If the answers are yes to both of the above, then I must congratulate yoursefl forf being the sanest sanest little girl, that i know of.Else, may i suggest you refrain from making further conjectures about how little girls, with poor fathers, (who probably can not afford even the internet connection charges, let alone have their daughters send to English medium schools to become this catty and stupid) should or should not kill themselves over a matter of a new dress.

Your patronising writing style already stinks of ``privilege``. Shame you did not use it to develop impartiality, a bit of humanity, and some objectivity.

Sincerely,

Asim

Re: PM #67

Am I the only one who can guess as to who is currently unemployed, from the sheer amount of time to write such high faluting, lengthy, verbose arguments. Either that or PM sahib is definitely enjoying his vacation.

Sincerely,

Asim

Fairdinkum # 52



``...a little girl who committed suicide because her father (a labourer) could not afford to buy a new dress for her on eid... i simply can`t get over it... i don`t think that anything on this rotten planet is more important than a new dress for a little girl on eid day...``

I havent made new clothes for eid in the past 8 years. It hasnt brought any urges of self destructiveness to life within me.

Doesnt a little girl commiting suicide because her father couldnt buy her a new dress for eid simply reflect on the sorry, shallow and disgustingly materialistic state of affairs that prevails. Killing yourself because you cant by new clothes for eid...WHAT is this world coming to?

P.S= Shandana.I read this in the Friday times and have been wanting to tell you how incredibly well done it is. Its a fine art indeed, being able to put into words your finest feelings in such a subtle way; a way that arouses deep feelings in the reader and makes him immeasurably sad.

scout: (re. #69)

Nice to see you`ve joined the Urstruly Pass-A-Threat club! :)

btw, you mean you`ve been hacking away all this time WITH examinations on your head?!!? Good luck girl, you`re prolly gonna need some!



Farangi_Kush, nice to see the ol` spark lit up again!! Wow, you did the equivalent of an abbreviated Juma Khutba there! Is it just me you get this excited about or all ex-commie liberal scum of the earth?

rgds

fairdinkum
Thanks for your wishes. Its a day for all Indians to feel proud.
btw, is the `military` part of the parade all that you have seen? I remember children from my school down south attending month-long camps in N Delhi which culminated in their participation in the Republic Day parade, I`m sorry the rest of the world has been missing out, as well on the `cultural` aspects and floats from states and state institutions. My favorite part was where the children who have won national awards for bravery, passed by, seated on elephants.

Sadhana

With apologies to slink for using her board for the message.

A very happy Republic Day to all the Indians!
Congratulations on keeping a democractic, and secular constitution intact despite all the pressure of VHP BJP RSS and whatnot... Perhaps, more needs to be done to resolve Kashmir issue and address the grievences of minorities... let`s hope that peace loving people of Mahatma Gandhi`s India will soon overcome these difficulties through peacful means.

And a very happy Australia Day to all the Aussies on this forum :)

What a coincidence!

We had an Australia day march in the city today... thousands of people with their families turned out.

In contrast to the show of military hardware and muscle in India... Australia day is a family day for us in Australia... no military harware, no pompus military marches... it is a celebration of democracy, peace, and cultural diversity in our beloved homeland... women and children and elderly all come out in large numbers and enjoy the day...

I should point out that many Indians expressed their dissatisfaction over the show of military might on Republic Day... An elderly woman said that, ``larai say koi faida nahi hai.. shanti hooni chaaheeya... bus sab loog khush rahayn.``

A vast majority of Australian expressed solidarity with Aboriginal Australians and many were wearing T-Shirts which said ``SORRY`` to the indigeneous people of this blessed land of ours...

Long Live Australia!

PM,

Due to an examination tomorrow, I cannot post a prompt reply to your arguments, which I`ve read in haste.

I`m giving you some time to prepare and have your last dinner, cause you`re going down tomorrow afternoon.

Farangi-Kush,

apka sher (i think it was a sher) meray sar kay uper say guzar gaya, aur usnay peechay mur kay bhi nahi dekha.

usually aap saath main translations bhi likhtay hain, is dafa kyon nahi likhi?

Please translate, if you can. I`d like to know the meaning behind it.

Bina #41:

[... We make and remake this city every day of our lives....]


Will try and highlight my Karachi.
As and when inspiration strikes.
This first vignette is posted here.
And at the Speaker’s Corner.
Later, I will add other vignettes
only at the Speaker’s Corner.
I owe it to Karachi.
That is if you guys want me to.

love,

t


______________________________________

KARACHI VIGNETTES
______________________________________


THE WRONG TURN

I forget the year. It was one of my periodic visits to Pakistan. I was invited for some show or the other at PACC (Pakistan American Cultural Center.) That programme was over half an hour before sunset. As I sat in the car and drove off I realised I should have made a U turn and head back, but on an impulse I continued past the Indian Embassy, turned back at the Cantonment Station and headed back towards the Metropole.

Cantt. Station was the last station for the rickety over 100 year old trams of Mohamedali Tramway Company. These trams were open. There were no doors. Passengers can get on or off from either side. With the curves in the track their whole body shook in unison like the slowly moving wipers on the windscreen.

Fazal Khan with the genuine smile always let one of us ‘drive’ the tram. He was all of 5-2” 155lbs, swarthy, stocky built, with smelly, naswaar laden mouth, crooked teeth, uncleaned, yellow gooey, but the front two were always clean. He had a habit of running his tongue over his front teeth. An unlikely pathan.

Those trams were powered by the earliest manufactured internal combustion engines. They had two gears, a chain brake and a levered accelerator. Fazal Khan made lots of kids happy by letting us change the gear lever or handle the accelerator. The trams stopped right over the bridge over a nullah in front of the school gates.

On one side, the right side was an open air sewage nullah. The poor had built jhuggis around the nullah.

Waiting for the tram on the way back I would look over and try to imagine their life. In the afternoon there were mostly women. Old and young. And children. Lots of them. In different stages of undress. The youngest ones were almost always naked, girls or boys, and all had invariably bloated stomachs. And they all had runny noses. And even when they smiled it looked like they were crying.

And then the stench emanating from the nullah would force us to cover our noses and move away.

As I negotiated the turn, I noticed the landscape had changed. The jhuggis were cleared. There were some new hotels there. Lots of Iranis had occupied those hotels on their way out from Iran waiting for greener pastures, greener cards, using Karachi as an interlude in their lives. Past these buildings I saw the familiar wrought iron gate. It was open.

I pulled over, waited for a minute or two, then impulsively backed over and entered the gate, half expecting Jamal the chowkidar to emerge and waive me away. No one came out.

I took out my videocorder, rested it on my shoulder and let the tape roll as I moved forward slowly.
I was facing the dome.

And I heard M.E. Hyder’s stern voice, making some announcement. 5-8”, 170, fair, bow tied, sometimes nursing a cane, short almost curly hair, parted on the left. Mr. SHK Zaidi, Miss Val, Miss Musharraf ---- they were all there behind him.

Took the right descent, past the science lab, past the classrooms, principal’s office and lurched to a stop facing the Minwala Block. This was the new block they had added and we were the first class to occupy it. After this block, there was nothing but bare land for 1500 yards. In the distance you could see the buildings of Jinnah Hospital.

I could not believe my eyes. The dull gray had changed to blasé yellow. Thank you ZAB. Plaster had fallen off, revealing the iron skeletal bones, nary a window had a pane left intact.

There, right there it was XC, right next to XB.

In the recess, sometimes I volunteered to be one of the two guards. Riaz Alam used to be the other one. Or Yasin Ali Reza. Or Qayyum Khan. And in the XB sometimes Nishat or Zeba. And Morse coded messages would be knocked on the common walls.

It wan an eerie sensation, looking at this ghost of a section. It was getting dark now. Still no chowkidar. My camera was still silently rolling. I stopped it. What would I tell my son when he will see this back in Toronto?

As I left the school buildings behind and turned on to Drigh Road, now Faisal Road I had an empty feeling. Wish I had not driven in. The image in my mind was more powerful, more pleasant than the dilapidated wreck I had just visited.

Another wrong turn in life....

scout,

had some free time after lunch, so thought I might offer a point-by-point tackling (rebuttal is not quitethe right word) of your earlier post.

You write:

``Why the exhibition of insecurity? Why does it bug you so?``

Does it bug me? Yes, it bugs me a little that Muslims get so insecure when anything bad in their tradition is pointed out. Why? Well, I could care less if this attitude didn`t directly impact on the way non-Muslims are treated in Pakistan. But IMO , it does. It is born of, and feeds, the belief, that Muslims, or Islam, could never be worse of than anyone else on a given matter. And that is exactly what you propose, don`t you, in your great attempt to equalize.

As for your contention that my reply was indicative of some insecurity, well, in case you haven`t noticed, I happily poke fun at Christainity (esp. Catholic priests), and don`t consider myself a Christian in any but the loosest sense of the word.

Which is not to say that I would not point out that the (Western) public perception of Catholic priests as `molestors` is, IMO, little more than the success of sensationalism in the Western media when it comes to sex.

I have on other occassions, tried to defend the Prophet`s marriage to a pre-teen as something that has to be seen in the context of the times. Was that an exhibition of insecurity too, rather than an effort to correct erroneuous perceptions?

You continue...

`` Did I say anything wrong about Christianity itself, or Hinduism itself?``

This question quite nicely brings out, in its own way, the root of your defensiveness. That it, a perception that others might object to your pointing out the `wrong` in their religion they way you (and if I may say most Muslims) are offended when others point out something wrong in yours.

My dear scout... go ahead, point out all the wrong in Christianity. If I were a Christian, I might even consider it a service, as long as you weren`t making false statements. That would lead me to revaluate my beliefs and hopefully reach greater truth.

As it were, I could care less about what anyone said about Christianity or Christians-- as long as it is true.

My defense of Catholic priests on this issue has little to do with their religous allegience. Perhaps you will undesrtand this better after reading the article I told you about earlier. If they`d been Muslims or Buddhists I would have taken the same stance, believe me.

``And you know quite well that when it comes to child molestation, Priests are notorious for it.``

yeah, like we `knew` back in the 80s, courtesy the sensationalistic press, that every Russian was out to drive a stake throug every american heart. :-)

Tell, you what... why don`t we begin by defining `child`, and `molestation`. And just so you don`t end up saying things that others could trun against you, consider this ... females, and males, in many, many cultures (incl. six century arabia) were considered of marriageable age when still in their (in our 20th century legal parlance) `childhood`. Now whatever cultural/ historical factors you bring in to explain why this may have been ok for them, the fact remains that PHYSILOGICALLY, things haven`t changed much. In fact, if anything, there is enough scientific evidence showing that the onset of puberty has fallen at least 5 years (for both male and female in the last 2000 years. In fact, 2 years in the past 200 alone!). As far as psychological maturity goes, I`m sure you can make the judgement yourself, comparing the way adolecents thought back when you & I were one and the way they do now. So I just don`t buy it when folks say that `fear and confusion` on the part of adolescents drives them into sexual relationships. In rural Pakistan, maybe. However, in the US, where even pre-school kids are taught to report to their teachers any `excessive` physical contact from their mammoos and chachas, I find it VERY hard to swallow the led-by-fear rationale. Ever come across a fiteen year old who would fit this description-- outside a familial context, that is??

``Equalizing is better than one sidedness. Too much acid or base can kill you, but a buffer works just right. Same goes for one sided hatred for religions and religious leaders.``

One-sidedness? My dear lady, is this not a South Asian website? Of what relevance is the Catholic Church and priests? Who is taking their side? Again, I ask why this defensiveness/insecurity? Before you fire away another rebbutal, please consider the possiblility that my question

is not designed to ridicule. Questions (even those posed on the chowk :)) can sometimes be asked with complete honesty.

you quote me as :``True, but was there really a need to state the obvious?``

and respond ``In that same light, is it really necessary to state the obvious when it comes to ISlam bashing that people here frequent in? HAven`t we heard it all before. Haven`t you stated the obvious time and time again in your arguments.``

What particular obvious things are you talking about here?

Indeed I have brought up issues more than once, but only to counter someone`s contention, to bring out inconsistencies and contradictions. This is not quite the reason you throw in thse juicy tidbits about Christian folks. And there`s another reason why some of us bring up things repeatedly: none of you ever acknowledge it. The best you do is remain mute and hope it will go away. (though in all fairness, to your credit, you DID once say that ``nobody said that Islam has all the answers for al times``

``YES, and very closely. I have a big problem with abuse and child abuse is sheer evil.``

No one is defending child abuse.

``So if an adolescent kid goes up to a Priest and tries to initiate sex, the Priest is obligated to do it, and it`s ok? EXCUSE ME?????????? Oh the kid made me do it.``

Obligated??? Where did that come from? remeber, we`re talking about consent that has to work both ways.

`` What the hell is that? It`s ok for a person who represents God such as a Priest to take advantage of a confused kid? I hope you are not saying that, cause if you are, that is very disturbing.``

Take ADVANTAGE of a confused kid? No, I`m not saying THAT! I am saying that the `kid` (a nice word to use to emphasize `innocence`) need not be confused to enter into a physical relationship with an adult.. clergy or otherwise. You find that disturbing? well, it`s ok... your parents probably found the idea that you wanted to date that sixten yo in high school equally disturbing :). My parents found my older brother`s wont to grow shulder-lenght hair back in the 70s VERY disturbing. Fortuantely, `disturbed-index` is not an indication of actual evil.

``So what you`re saying is that if force and violence aren`t used, it`s ok for a kid to have sex with a Priest?``

No. not quite. I said, and I repeat, ``there *are * issues``. What I am REALLY saying is that such incidents need not be tarred with the same brush as those involving violence and force.

``In all the cases I`ve read about, the kids are too damn scared or disturbed to put up a fight.``

Well, obviously you wouldn`t read about the ones that were in a loving and caring setting. Nobody likes 15 years to life, even if it makes a sensational news-story.

So you`ve apparently read many cases, huh? Care to point out to ONE involving a priest and fear?

There may even be some! Priests are not angels. And see, here`s another distinction your ``equalizing`` nicely overlooks... Most ``molestors`` in the West are not priests; although there are no statistics in Pakistan, there is a general perception that mullahs comprise a majorty of such offenders (though we don`t know for sure).

So again, your `equalizing` lacks intellectual tightness.

[Now I`m really disturbed. Do you honestly think a 14, 15 year old has the mental and psychological capacity to initiate sex with their Priests? Who gives a damn who initiates or consents to what. IT`S WRONG and we all know it. I can`t believe you`re making excuses for it.]

Sure we all ``know`` in the late 20th early 21st century. Most cultures in the past (read any sociology/anthropolgy lately) did NOT know that 14-16 yo were incapable of making decisions about their sexuality. Need I point out... ahh forget it... your insecurities might cause you to think I`m bashing Something again, and poor old Urstruly will be offended all over again. And fairdinkum wll lose the cool he`s trying so hard to keep! :)

``Don`t expect me to sit and listen to one sided arguments against one particular religion or religious leaders, when the whole religious community of the world has corruptness ingrained into it.``

yadda yadda yadda, dear. True as your last statement might be, please don`t use it to make blanket statements. It takes all the fun out of these arguments we have :)

``So what do you think of REVEREND Jesse Jackson`s confession to fathering a child through an extra-marrital affair? What a respected member of the church he is or was?``

Jeez, now we`re getting into RSaxena-ylh mode, are we? But since you asked the question, I oblige with a serious answer: I think not much wrong with it. The man admitted to a mistake and is taking responsibility for it. But...something like this wouldn`t even be seen as a sin in Islam (remember the `use what your right hand posseses` ayat?). Now, I`m not ridiculing Islam, trust me. I`m just showing you how strongly your own value system is influenced by Western/Christian morality.

``Do you still think evil and wrongdoing only exists in Islamic countries?``

Yes, and I thought I had made that clear in all my posts, have I not?? :-)

``Please open your mind to everything bad, not just one religion and one country.``

See, scoutee, when I go to a site called ``Roundabout`` or ``MarketPlace``, you can bet your pyjamas I`ll be criticzing the West and their values-- where appropriate.

regards,

PM

``And almost every time I dive into water, an image crosses my mind. An image of a snake rushing towards me from behind, grabbing hold of one of my ankles and pulling me down into the water while I struggle to escape. Perhaps a fragment of a nightmare from childhood. They say dreams are supposed to be symbolizations...``

Lubna,

I must say you have been reading too much Chekhov.:), Not that that is necessarily a bad thing. I enjoy him as much, if not more than Guy de Maupassaant

You do rermmeber the snake story by him dont you. Where this big serpent used to live in this guys swimming pool. Unless of course, my ailing memory has made me mix up Chekhove with Raymond Carver. Will someone help?

Asim

Re: Sac, agaian.

``So all this talk of loving your religion more than your wife was a `virtual` argument? Soon you`ll be telling me your real name is Bushra and that your measurements are 36-24-34``

Is that wishful thinking sac?

Somehow i have a hard time believing the image that you painted about our very own Fairdinkum.Ubless these days Bushras are sporting a 4`` sharaee darhee and have exclusive membership to their own derh eeinth ki masjids. Its a joke! Fairdinkum Sahib. Rsaxena thinks i actually sport a beard BIGGER than Osama. What a gullible fool that chap is hainji:)



At the risk of being excomminicated, ``Bushra`s`` generally dont have the statistics quite like the one you have quoted. Add another 6 to all of them (plus an additional 4 to the middle and the last one)and then you will get the Bushra ``template``, who will love Islam more than her Husband; unless the husband is a real hunk. A claim which is automatically negated given the rather gloomy statistics, 42-34-44.

Sincerely,

Asim

P.S the Bushra bashing/Mullah bashing purely lies in the convoluted minds of the readers. It was not intentional, by this writer. :)

Re : Sac #57

``BTW urstruly needed a gentle spanking. What he is getting is what we used to call a `litrol`........... ``

We call it ``chitrol``, FYI :) Same thing, except the jootay are dipped in oil for optimal placement/impact.:)

Sincerely,

Asim

re fairdinkum:

So all this talk of loving your religion more than your wife was a `virtual` argument? Soon you`ll be telling me your real name is Bushra and that your measurements are 36-24-34.......trust me it has happened before ;)

I am not convinced if the decimalization of stock prices is supposed to be such a good deal for the investors as has been touted. I liken it to going Automatic from a stick-shift. You love it at first but gradually you realize how much better the stick-shift is for sheer driving pleasure. Obviously it doesn`t matter if all you do is drive a Ford Escort........

I am sure your allegations of self-inflicted penury are greatly exaggerated. I am getting a tad bit tired of some Knights complaining about those blood-sucking convicts out in the Pacific though....if you know what I mean :)

I do enjoy your exchanges with Bilal. I am still waiting for you to pen something substansive about the immigrant experience in Australia. Or is it too full of women, booze and other bad things in life to be narrated here?

later

-sac

P.S:Shandana I get scared when people act so civilly toward me. What`s wrong? BTW urstruly needed a gentle spanking. What he is getting is what we used to call a `litrol`...........

Shandana:

An interesting read. But one image in particular is still resonating up there.....

[The mini-whirlpool reaches out to touch his ankles, caresses upwards, and seconds later his head is underwater, his arms growing weak to hang limp by his sides, and his breath stilled.]

--I love swimming. And almost every time I dive into water, an image crosses my mind. An image of a snake rushing towards me from behind, grabbing hold of one of my ankles and pulling me down into the water while I struggle to escape. Perhaps a fragment of a nightmare from childhood. They say dreams are supposed to be symbolizations...

fairdinkum:

[...i simply can`t get over it... i don`t think that anything on this rotten planet is more important than a new dress for a little girl on eid day...]

--I recall reading about that..... and I remember thinking back to another suicide that had taken place a few months earlier.... This guy I`d known for years - had watched him evolve from the noisiest KG kid on my school bus to one of the most popular high-schoolers. On the surface had no problems whatsoever - as ``normal`` as one can get for his age. Not a close friend but someone I came across all the time and shared a few laughs with. Had run into him a few days before he hung himself.... I remember thinking what or how much could he have possibly experienced in his short life to have made him want to cop out. He was only sixteen. He`d led a life free of difficulties (material, physical, mental, emotional (or so it seemed to everyone)) and sorrows. He had yet to experience all the pain that makes a person want to escape. But maybe that was the reason. Maybe it was the fear of facing this pain - the fear that it might be too much for him to bear, that he might not be able to take it, the fear that he might crack under the burden. And crack he did..... Cowardly? Maybe. And perhaps selfishness? Only thinking about himself and his fears. What about those who still love him - the pain they will have to live with for the rest of their lives? But this is moving away from my point.... About the girl... What I meant to say was that perhaps it was the prospect of spending the rest of her life caught in the vicious cycle of poverty the girl was dreading.... A cycle with no sign of escape other than ending her life apparent to the mind of this 15(?) yr old. The dread of facing Eid after Eid after Eid with disappointment (and humiliation - at the hands of society) at not receiving a new dress.... How many disappointments can a 15 yr old take anyway?

Urstruly,

re. my last post, please don`t read it as a provocation. I`m just curious to know what you intend throwing at the Christians, Quaidianis and bayha ex-commie liberals. Hindus you`ve already dealt with (though I doubt you ruffled any feathers there)

rgds,

PM

Urstruly #47

Buddy, when are you gonna stop with the threats and show us some ACTION?? C`mon, man!!!

fairdinkum #53,