Eathquake Hits India And Pakistan

macgupta #287

It`s a little strange that you did not cite the source of you figures for J&K.

Re: shankar #289

You and Urstruly are similar in some ways (you both try hard to appear intelligent) and completely different in others....he seems to hate anything to do with penises, you can`t get enough of them...in every other posts you have some reference to erections and what you do with them.

Zahra #277

(For Rejuvenation purposes).

I don`t want to be a pope or father.

But God help you.

It is a long struggle with high rewards.

Clear conscience at the end. Enmity to none.

TAhmed #321 #285

The genocide in Kashmir is the same as genocide in Bengal. The only difference is that Bengal initially decided to join Pakistan while Kashmir was usurped by India. To see a good history on Kashmir read Indian Journalist S.J (or M.J) Akbar`s book. A very prominent Indian and in no way so called ISI agent.

In a conflict if a party is fighting for its right and another party is fighting to deny that right. I will root for the party fighting for its right. All the liberation movement of this century can be blamed for one reason or another. When Mao was fighting against Imperialist Japan, and West and their cronies, there was lot of blame put on Communist party. Does that deny the justification of Chinese to have an independent country of their own.

Also the only fault of Pakistan has been that it was weak to begin with. If weakness means that a person should withdraw from his rights, then I can only say one thing. Only one thing is learned from history. That people never learn from History. Particularly who live on high pedestal.

I will go for justice first than friendship.

Shanker #289

You are righto brother.

That is why whole world including you keep a blind eye.

I say shame is ashamed now a days.

URstruly,

{{Rapes by Hindu Army and police

281 (23/ mo)}}

I thought I read that in the ``marital rape`` article that in order for a woman to prove rape should have 2 men as witnesses who watched the act of penetration.

So I guess 46 jihadis a month watched those women get raped! Those dirty buggers! Er..what were they doing with their... er guns while they were watching?

Between January 1, 1988, and October 31,1998, (subsequent figures not yet available), there was a total of 38,753 Pakistani-sponsored terrorist incidents in Jammu & Kashmir. During the same period, according to the annual reports on the Patterns of Global Terrorism issued by the US State Department, there were 4,411 terrorist incidents in the rest of the world.

Conclusion: There were nine times as many terrorist incidents in J&K as there were in the rest of the

world.

These incidents could be categorised as follows:

Targeted attacks on the Security Forces------- 18,064

Targeted attacks on civilians 9,793

Indiscriminate killings with

explosives and Arson attacks 10,896

The majority of those killed in the explosions and arson attacks were civilians.

Conclusion: The security forces were the exclusive victims in 18,064 incidents and in the remaining

20,689, the victims were either exclusively or largely civilians. Comparable figures for the rest of the world are not available in the reports of the State Department.

Sameer:

[The point was to appreciate life irrespective of possibility of comitting more sins.]

I do not think anyone disgreed with that. Well, in my story, I could have continued with my devilish side besides my transformed self :-) So my life gave me both options. It was upto me!

[I do understand the value of good deeds as opposed to bad deeds and the fear of going to hell is helpful in many ways to live out a decent life.]

I never alluded to the above thought!

[It was my stupid/ sarcastic way of extrapolating deeds based philosophy to an extreme whereby a world devoid of human beings is also devoid of sins.]

You interpreted[than extrapolated]the few lines in a very negative manner. And that`s why your logic is dancing around ``sins.`` Well, I am not interested to go into any further discussion on this point. Chapter Closed!

PS: I am relieved that you didn`t give me any Google Search Engine`s address. Now, I will always read you as someone possessing extraterrestrial powers. Glad to know that :-)!

Take Care

Re: Tahmed321 #285

``What I find tragic is that not one Pakistani nor one Indian (in uniform or otherwise) has been brought to trial by his own authorities``

Tahmed321, letting criminals go scot-free is a crime that taints an entire society. It corrupts institutions, and I fully agree with your sense of outrage. That said, however, it is not true that none in India have been convicted. Here is a recent newslink detailing the sentencing of an Army officer for rape in Kashmir:

http://www.timesofindia.com/051000/05indi51.htm

Such cases are hard to prove, and convictions are difficult. When a suspect is finally sentenced under the law, I applaud.

krashid #265 ``To which Animals you are talking to.

Who consider other humans as animals.

Anyway the data for rape, killing and death in custody for year 2000 is already available.``

I would not consider the two people I addressed my posts (egalitarian brahman and Latif) to fall in the category you mention: I try to avoid having exchanges with people whom I think are incapable of a civilized dialogue. Perhaps I missed some posts you people exchanged that has caused you to come up with such harsh words for them, but I can only go by what I see.

Anyway...

On the question of killings etc.: I think there are enough armchair warriors on the internet - both Pakistani and Indian - to make such accusations and counter-accusations (and there has been enough evil done by both sides to allw this to go on indefinitely). What I find tragic is that not one Pakistani nor one Indian (in uniform or otherwise) has been brought to trial by his own authorities. And this after 50 years of off and on wars and skirmishes. We just like to score points on these things, that`s all. What kind of people are we?

Re: Satyavaadi

I`ve been accused of being a lot of things lately but I have never been called an exponent of `pure Gujarati`! Thanks though brotha.... made me feel good about myself :).

Re: Egalitarian Brahmin

I know exactly where you are coming from. Here`s a good example. Look at my posts 219 & 223 addressed to Scout and then her response to both in post 236.

In both my posts I say the same thing. The difference being that in 219 my criticism is leveled more so against Pakistan that it is against India, whereas in post 223 I am attacking both sides in identical measure.

Now look at how riled scout gets due to post 219 and how receptive she is to post 223.

Moral of the story:

On Chowk, in order to sustain any kind of a meaningful discussion without getting attacked by one side or the other; each criticism or praise of one country MUST be balanced by a corresponding appraisal of the other.

One way to look at the above is that all discussion on Chowk is meaningless....

Or then again conversely... maybe this is a very important lesson in conflict resolution.

As long as you learn and grow through..... I reckon all else is peripheral!

Mitra, taara maate pan ek divas evo avshe Chowk par.... ke dar be ghadeeay toli-toli ne bolva thi tu evo sakhat kantadshe...... ke dil kholi ne bolshe.... Ane jevo imandaari thi varatva jayeesh ke das-pandar loko ganda kootra ni mafak taari pachhad dodshe!

:)

Take care.

Re: Macgupta

You are right on the money as always. Assad is referring to Mishra`s article and I was referring to Bearak`s.

P.S: Arun, please don`t use `methinks`. That`s so catty dude.... it don`t jive with yo style! :)

Re: Earthquake and Rss/BJP Politics

Calamity has this strange knack of bringing people together. When you are battling for survival, caste and creed do not matter. Roving Editor Ramesh Menon details one such incident, which could have been a landmark in communally strife-torn Ahmedabad. Only, it was too good to last.

When the earth shook violently on January 26, the residents of Sarangpur Chakla -- like everyone else in Ahmedabad -- ran out of their homes. Many of them moved into the large courtyard of Rani`s mosque, a 15th century monument. Located in an area that is dominated by Hindus, the mosque has been closed for over 32 years. But, as a protected heritage monument, it is being looked after by the Archaeological Survey of India.

It proved to be a safe shelter during the quake, since it is surrounded by an open area, while Sarangpur is dominated by narrow lanes and old buildings.

Soon after, a group of elderly Hindus approached Muslims in the Panchkuva area of Kalupur and asked them to begin offering namaz at the mosque again. They hoped it would please the Gods and the anger within the earth would subside. The Muslims happily acquiesced.

On January 31, a dozen-odd Muslims went to the mosque to offer namaz early in the morning. It was the first time since the 1969 communal riots in the city that this had happened.

The Hindus in the locality got together and organised water; before offering namaz, the Muslims are required to wash their hands and feet. ``The residents thanked us and said our prayers would ward off danger to their area. Though the tremors continued, we thought it brought us together,`` remembers Mohsin Sheikh, a small-time businessman who deals with bags and plastic sheets.

For the next namaz, there were about two dozen Muslims offering prayers.

The one held in the afternoon saw four dozen devotees.

Though the numbers swelled to 250 for the namaz after sunset, the Muslims could sense the tension in the air. One of them walked up to a policeman outside the mosque and told him that, if there is a problem in them offering prayers there, they would stop immediately. The policeman said there was no problem; that the prayers -- which were for everyone`s well-being -- should continue.

Yet, by the time of the night namaz, they were told not to come to the mosque, thanks to strident protests from a handful of vocal residents associated with the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh.

The residents themselves had no complaints about the namaz. The area`s right wing elements, though, felt the presence of so many Muslims -- the numbers were increasing with each namaz -- should not be allowed since Sarangpur borders Muslim-dominated areas.

The last namaz of the day did not take place.

The amity between the two communities did not last 24 hours. Those who reached the mosque for the last namaz say the policemen were beginning to worry about communal tension and did not want anything to spark it.

Today, the iron gate leading to the mosque has been locked. The courtyard is silent except when the wind blows; then, one can hear the sound of rustling leaves.

Four policemen are sleeping in front of the gate; which is covered with their damp clothes. One of them views me with suspicion. ``Have you come here to read namaz?`` he demands.

I tell him I am, like him, a Hindu. Still suspicious, he says I cannot go in. ``The mosque had been closed for years and will not open again. We are here to ensure that.``

MacGupta re:272

I remember an article a few months back in the NYT Sunday magazine.. have they done another one recently?

You are correct, of course, that I was referring to the NY Review of Books. Sorry..

RE: Urstruly #278

It`s getting old give it up...it`s not becoming of someone your age.

Zahra: You are responding to my post that was not what I believe but pointing out the negative aspects of the commonly believed philosophy of deeds based rewards and punishments after death coupled with couple of other philosophies 1) sins are more attractive to human beings; 2) the children do not commit crime because they are innocent and thus their unfortunate death in infancy or early childhood takes them to heaven. According to nature of human, there is no way of knowing how a child will turn out on deeds scale and thus their death spares him/ her from a possibility of going to hell.

The death count as a result of earthquake includes a large number of children and according to Islamic belief, as I understand, they are heaven bound.

The point was to appreciate life irrespective of possibility of comitting more sins. I do understand the value of good deeds as opposed to bad deeds and the fear of going to hell is helpful in many ways to live out a decent life. It was my stupid/ sarcastic way of extrapolating deeds based philosophy to an extreme whereby a world devoid of human beings is also devoid of sins.

I have no interest involving myself in a discussion ``what Islam actually means`` beyond the simplistic and ``myopic`` visions of certain individuals as pointed out in the letter to Dawn.

Its surprising that `those who value human life` do not seem to bother to publish the same in their English edition. Maybe its because that would leave them open to questions about authenticity and sources.

Sadhana