Eathquake Hits India And Pakistan

Correction:
I am not sure if you`ve watched the movie Titanic[It just struck me while I was writing this response]. If you have, then try to remember the scene when:

In my post 302`s heading, I only said ``Interesting.`` Somehow, now I am realizing how inappropriate the comment was. In light of the Titanic example, I feel like substituting that for ``DISGUSTING`` !!!

Thanks!

Veeresh:[Post 303]

Your humor did not carry much weight, in my opinion. The examples were a way out-of-line.

Just to give you another example:

I am not sure if you`ve watched the movie Titanic[It just striked me while I was writing this response]. If you have, then try to remember the scene when:

The famous Titanic was sinking, and the life boats were trying to help the ones who were drowning. What happened? One woman said that they needed upper class treatment or something of that sort[I do not seem to recollect the exact words].

At that tragic moment, there was an immense dislike towards her comment. Why?

I will leave that for your finer senses!

If you haven`t watched the movie. Do So?

PS: Do not justify deplorable acts with light weight examples! The concept of luxury is very different from that of a disaster!

Thanks!


Satish - Post 304
Sorry, could not catch the holy message in your one line sermon!

Quake Can`t Shake Caste System

By JOSEPH COLEMAN, Associated Press Writer

LAKHOND, India (AP) - The streets are strewn with rubble and house after house is a useless heap of stone. But there`s one structure that can`t be

shaken in India, even by a killer earthquake - the caste system.

The town has six distinct tent camps for the earthquake homeless - all separated by caste or religion. When relief groups showed up to hand out

aid, town leaders presented them with six lists of residents: four different Hindu castes, the untouchables - lower even than the formal caste

system - and Muslims. All the camps are separate.

With the pattern repeated across the zone in western India ravaged by the Jan. 26 quake, relief groups find themselves wrestling with the country`s ingrained

social hierarchy to get help to everybody - even untouchables.

``The whole issue of making sure all the castes are included has been a challenge,`` Graham Saunders of Catholic Relief Services said Wednesday as workers

handed out buckets, soap and other aid to people in the town.

Officially, India`s traditional caste system - a social hierarchy with Brahmans at the top and the so-called ``untouchables`` at the bottom - has been illegal for

decades, and discriminating against someone on the basis of caste in employment and housing, for example, can wind up in court. Unofficially, however, the

social order in the countryside remains strong, determining how most people live, with whom they marry and socialize.

So while modernization and urbanization have blurred the lines between castes somewhat in the cities, in places like the quake-damaged villages of Gujarat the

divisions are clear, and greatly complicate the already enormous challenges of getting relief to victims.

In the aftermath of the disaster, necessities are scarce and everyone is desperate for help. Those at the top of the pecking order use their connections and

prestige to get the pick of the goods.

``Whatever the distribution of aid, it first goes to the upper castes,`` said Mayuri Mistry, a Catholic Relief Services worker in Gujarat.

The social hierarchy is only one of the problems with aid distribution. There have been complaints in the quake zone that political connections are playing a big

role in determining who gets help.

The needs are overwhelming. The 7.7-magnitude quake killed more than 17,000 and left behind 1 million homeless, according to a United Nations (news - web

sites) estimate. More than 60,000 were injured and survivors are in need of medical care, food, water and shelter.

The French group Doctors without Borders has a cultural anthropologist in Bhuj, near the epicenter, to coach workers on how to navigate the region`s social

landscape.

``Indian villages look like a mess, but you know by the house what caste lives there,`` said Pilar Duch. ``You cannot think that a village is homogeneous. If you

don`t know that, you can make a mistake.``

Her colleague Olaf Pots spent the day Wednesday moving from village to village northeast of Bhuj, assessing needs and handing out blankets, tarps for tents

and water buckets.

But it was more than just a matter of dropping piles of aid off at each village and moving on. First he met with village leaders and figured out how many people

lived in the town and what castes were represented.

Then came the hard part: deciding whether to hand over the goods to the top man in the village, distribute them among the leaders of the various castes in the

town, or simply go door to door to make sure everyone got their share.

In Gada, a hilltop hamlet, Pots had a lengthy negotiation with village elders, peppering them with questions about the castes there and wringing from them

guarantees that they would distribute the aid fairly.

A key to success is making sure there is enough to cover everyone in a village, so there is no fighting over short supplies.

For example, the sub-chief of Gada, Jiva Manda Rabari, assured Pots that he would see that the village`s four untouchable families would get their share -

provided supplies were sufficient.

``You have to give us enough if you want them to get something,`` he said, adding that he would turn away deliveries that could not provide everyone with

some relief.

In some towns, international organizations rely on local groups to police distribution. In nearby Traya, Pots struck a deal with the village elders to let a member

of a local women`s development group supervise the handing out of blankets, tarps and water bottles.

In Lakhond, the leader of the untouchables there, Ramesh Kumar Hamirbhai, said he had no major problems with the distribution of aid so far, though he said

the tradition of separating aid deliveries by caste caused unnecessary complications.

He said he preferred the way some international groups were operating, by gathering everybody in one place and handing out relief one person at a time.

``This is the best system,`` he said. ``This way, each and every person gets help.``

Dear Friend, Dionysus and Urstruly . . . (1) I am not joking, I am as serious about things as when I say that Mahatma Gandhi was actually the Father of Pakistan and not India and (2) I am even more serious when I say that my knowledge of the depravities of the caste system extend to many parts of India, including some untouched by roads.

My point is simple: the Japanese did it to the Aeenoos, the Europeans did it to the Native Americans in South and North America and the rich guys do it to the poor guys regardless of caste in India too.

My Bhumihar friends in Bihar would as much have the guts to slap a lower caste person in their stronghold village now as they would have the guts to take a bullet in their head, simple.

What amazes me is that we still have a lot of guys - including some closer home than others - believing the stories churned out at the Foreign Press Club in Delhi. ``Naked sadhus at Kumbh`` is one aspect . . . a few dozen crores went to Allahabad for a ritual bath, out of them maybe a few thousand were naked men and maybe one Mexican hippie took her clothes off, so now we believe CNN only?

Give me a break guys . . . come to India and go walkabout without any pre-concieved notions. Sure the caste system exists but are things better or worse is the question you need to ask yourself.

As for the lo lo po po . . . it still mystifies me . . . will you bataofy?

Eklavya #325

``Overall, I see the Indian society changing, and for all its faults, the government IS on our side. That is more than any minority, or even Shia or Ahmadi person can say in Pakistan. The argument ends there.``

Well said. As a religous minority member with family in both India and Pakistan, I can fully appreciate your assertion.

However, as you will see, the `argument` will not end there. Many of those `arguing` (more like ranting on!) seem to excel at selectivity in their reading, and exhibit the logical abilities of a five-year-old when `discussing` Kashmir or Hindu-stan.

Thanks for that personal testimony. I have heard many others.

veeresh #: 315

``Thank you, thank you, I have now seen the light. ``

I suggest that you stop acting like a joker and read the messages carefully.

You say

``. . . so let me understand this, friend and Dionysus, a caste system based on birth is absolutely haraam and not kosher,``

Yes, I do mean that. But than you claim

`` but one based on colour, money, religion, foreskin or lack thereof, nationality, passport, railroad brigand ancestry, military rule or gender, now that is highly halal.``

Did I ever say that? Please don`t extrapolate your own thoughts on others.

Perhaps your part of India is limited to Delhi and Bombay. Just travel out of Delhi and visit the villages. I may be back in a year and will be a very willing guide.

Urstruly #: 329

Yaar tum to gadhe ho. Bilkul Gadhe. Read my mail again before you start quoting it.

What I tried to tell Veeresh was that caste system is a bad thing and we must be free of such mental blocks in India.

NOWHERE dit I say that other counteries are free of this evil. I can quote from Nepal, Pakistam, Thailand, UK, USA... However, I am more concerned with India as improving that will improve my lot.

regards

Veeresh #315

No Einstein, you understand nothing. You prove yourself to be a complete and utter moron when you compare seperate class check-in lines at airports with the brutality and the savagery of the Hindu caste system.

Please don`t trivialize the suffering of countless millions of Shudras in this way.

Urstruly, boss, what is a lo lo po po style? Wow!!

Shankar #314

Very moving post.

I would recommend you to read some current facts about Iran, before writing something (probably you are influenced by propaganda)

You are right about Pakistan and its prospects.

But things might change. You never know.

The day Islamists in Pakistan will stand on their feet instead of being cronies to Establishment, that day probably things would start changing.

Re: Eklavya #324, Kalki #317

May God bless your souls -- I am very happy for the success that you and your families are enjoying in independent India. Free at last! Much more still needs to be done.

When I was young (late teens) I resented India`s Constitutionally-mandated reservation system (which is far more regimented and quota-based than the US` affirmative action program)not only because I was potentially disadvantaged by it, but also because it appeared to not promote meritocracy. But after hearing about your successes in life, I feel that it is a small price to pay if it creates opportunities for those, like you, who have been oppressed for centuries. Your testimonials make the effort all worth it. When asked what he would have liked to have been born as, Gandhiji said, ``A Harijan (children of God)`` (now Dalit). I now understand the wisdom of his words, because only when one suffers silently as the Dalits have, does one understand the meaning of self-respect and respect for others.

Zehra # 321

I appreciate your efforts to civilize me but keep in mind that:

Mard-e-NadaaN par kalaam-e-Narm-o-Nazuk bay Asr

Please do not give up though. You can try by telling me something that I already dont know :)

THE S WORD

Kalki # 328

THat is new. Because we were repeatedly told by Gupta Inc. and some other BJP/VHP spokespersons like Sadna that all Ss are proud of being Ss. Another S interactor has also informed of his pride (just scroll down). We have also been assured that you guys have such a great Affirmative Action program that even Brahmins yearn to be Ss and if and when Hindustan will be able to establish colonies on the moon Ss will get the first allotment of plots.

Sir, I think you are a liar. May crow take your tongue (some Hindi curses sound good even in English). There was another liar on the board too who told us that he had to take his shoes off while visiting to his village because he is an S. He also told us that he was slapped across the face when he sat at the same level with Brahmin. Damn Liar. May crow take his tongue too. You are liars because you didnt give us a link to verify your claims like Gupta Inc. does.

Personal appeal to everybody on this board. Please do not use the S-word ( ``Shudra`` ) on this board or anywhere. It is as degrading as using N-word in US of A.

JR # 317: Excellent predicament in a nutshell. Pakistan will go to 7th century through the present middle ages followed by dark ages of Taliban variety. A simple liberal or secular approach to our current problems is nowhere in sight. The question is: how to stop the onslaught of retrogressive forces in Pakistan?

Neither a ``pure`` or reformed Islam is the ansqer nor a sizable populace is going to adopt secular/ liberal attitude. The benefits of good economy and liberalism did not stop fundamentalist revolution in a more secular Iran and it is not going to help Pakistan either. In an atmosphere where only fundamentalists are active and rest are passive-just look at the interacts at chowk and see what motivates Pakistanis. Just mention God, Quran, blasphemy or Islam, and start couting the number of hits.