Eathquake Hits India And Pakistan

Re: reply # 314

Shanker,

You made a very important point about tolerance in hindu religion. Caste system, Sati etc are social and not religious evils. A number of people including social reformers over many centuries have tried to correct these evils. As far as law of the land and the constitution is concerned, all are same. President of India belongs to the so called low caste community. No one at time of independece could have imagined that someone from this community can ever rise to such a high position. I know detractors in this form would say President is just a nominal head. I am only trying to show that there has been a vast change in the way people have looked at caste system over the years. Certainly in a place like Tamil Nadu where the so called lower castes have been in power for many decades,talking of this openly is more or less a taboo. Many years ago I went to do my postgraduation in medicne in a hospital in Madras. Prior to that I had lived all my life in Delhi and this was something like a home-coming for me. I was astronished to discover the ``reverse discrimination`` that you were talking about, Shanker. It definitely exists and is bad but the good thing that I found was that there was no animosity between different castes.

Hinduism I think is a very broad based religion. For most people it is very personal and they can worship which god or goddess they want to worship (there are a gazillion of them to choose from). If you do not want to worship any god that is fine too. All you need is a quiet corner in your house and meditate on the supreme formless being. That is why you never find our Shankaracharyas issuing any decrees/fatwas because most hindus would not appreciate that.

Just a passing thought- one of this year`s winners of Bharat Ratna, the highest civilian award by GOI,is Bismillah Khan. I do not think most hindus every think of him as a muslim. When we hear his name, only the picture of a great musician comes to mind.

Sridhar

Re: Urstruly (#319 )

``The killing of Sikhs by Freedom Fighters defies all logic.``

whatelse can be expected from illogical jehadis who are out to shoot the jeans legs and cleanse all non-muslims from the valley.

`` Fingers have been pointed at the Hindu-stani Army again, as before ``

By who ? the same sikh community who demanded guns so that they can teach jehadis a lesson ? By the same sikh youth who roamed downtown srinagar and forced all muslim traders to close down their shutters ? by the same sikh community, who are accusing that govt is not protecting them from jehadis ? Who is pointing fingers at who ? do you have any clue ?

`` Pakistani/Kashmiri and Sikhs always had good relationships since partition despite the attrocities committed by them to the Muslims during that time.``

Really ? Let me ask you something. What was the sikh population in pakistan before and after partition. Why did the sikhs leave pakistan. You need stop posting lies on this board.

What is the probability that a muslim land will be homogenous ? Oh, I know the answer. It`s 100%

Caste problems still very much exist in India. In some places these problems are still very acute. Anyone who believes otherwise has never lived as a Dalit. In large parts of India, things are changing very slowly, if at all.

At the same time, I am terribly offended by those who use words like Shudra. I have noticed these always tend to be Muslims or Christians, some of them are well-meaning. I will request everyone to kindly refrain from using the s word.

Personally, I have mixed opinions on this issue. I have suffered greatly and have benefitted greatly because of my caste. I can say the same about other members of my family. I put up with a lot and worked very hard but I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN WHERE I AM IF THE GOVERNMENT HAD NOT ASSISTED ME. I am not any less intelligent. I just had too much to deal with.

Overall, I see the Indian society changing, and for all its faults, the government IS on our side. That is more than any minority, or even Shia or Ahmadi person can say in Pakistan. The argument ends there.

If we are into quoting religious text :

Mahabharata, XII.269.34



“If one’s birth were to decide one’s caste, then all should be Brahmins because all humans beings have one Father- Prajapati (God, the protector and master of all creatures).”

Take a look at

http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/vajrasuchika.html

The point being that Hindu society has changed over the millenia.

-Arun Gupta

#315
`railroad-brigand ancestory`
Very intriguing reason for class divisions :)

URS:

The school will like to inform you that your questions are being looked into and we will get back to you with a proper doze!

We understand that such news can unnerve any sane being. Obviously, the ones with ``unique skills`` will react differently. Reaction(Over)Justified!

Also, it is imperative that we let you know how we got hold of your name. Our database analysts ran few SQL queries and as a result found your name flickering on their computer screen in Bold Letters. They all were simply bewildered to see an alien name and were just excahnging notes that on the planet of your origin - when suddenly they found you on this ezine. We don`t believe in flattery, therefore we will stop here!

ENDOFNOTE

PS: Please do not USE any words that are used by women folk as part of their lingo, i.e. Ahem. It has its copy rights reserved for women only. If you want us to consider you for the upcoming semester`s teaching assignment, we would require that you get rid of this term ASAP. We do not want the boys to start learning Ahem Ahem than brattiness!

THANKS

Shankar # 314

Ahem! ever heard the following names:

1. Bal Thakaray

2. KL Advani

3. AB Vajpayee

4. RSS

5. BJP

6. VHP

7. Three thugs who are in key positions in Hindustani government (cant remember their manhoos names). Their hands are red with 6000 Muslims murdered during Babri issue along with top three in the list.

Oh! I get it. They dont have beards eh!

Baysharm Hindu logo- kam az kam soch kar to bola karo.

Anyway, congratulation with your progress.

Sadna# 318

Did Mohajir take the day off?

The killing of Sikhs by Freedom Fighters defies all logic. Fingers have been pointed at the Hindu-stani Army again, as before. It is a shame that Hindu-stani Army lowers itself to such Karastani every now and then.

Pakistani/Kashmiri and Sikhs always had good relationships since partition despite the attrocities committed by them to the Muslims during that time. Punjabi Muslims have forgiven but probably not forgotten those testing times. Even our resident Akaali Dal Muslamaans like SameerJB and a couple of others assure us of that.

Something for our `principled` `friends` talking of `justice` and `right to self-determination` to congratulate themselves over, bravo!

http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20010209/ina09050.html
J-K Sikhs? fears -- PM calls key meet today
HARISH GUPTA & AASHA KHOSA

NEW DELHI, FEBRUARY 8: Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee has summoned a high-level meeting tomorrow to formulate a ??long-term plan?? in the light of increasing demands by the Sikh community to migrate from the Kashmir Valley citing the Centre?s ??inability to provide them adequate protection.??

Besides the Prime Minister, those who will attend tomorrow?s meeting are Union Home Minister L K Advani, External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh, Defence Minister George Fernandes and Chemicals and Fertilizers Minister S S Dhindsa.Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Farooq Abdullah is also said to have been called after his remarks seeking to link last week?s killing of six Sikhs to the ongoing ceasefire in Kashmir.

Sources said Abdullah?s ??anti-ceasefire?? remarks have not been taken kindly by the Central leaders. Vajpayee is said to have debriefed the Dhindsa-led team after its return from the Valley where it had gone to assess the situation after the Sikh killings.
An estimated 75,000 Sikhs spread over 120 villages conveyed their insecurities to the four-member delegation. Besides Dhindsa, the others in team were Chamanlal Gupta, S S Ahluwalia and V K Malhotra.

Sources said all members of the central team had differed with Abdullah?s opinion. ??People told us that Chittisinghpora (where 37 sikhs were killed) happened even when there was no ceasefire,?? one of the members is said to have told the Prime Minister.

Abdullah is likely to be told that he should refrain from making statements which do not help New Delhi?s peace initiative.

The Centre is taking the threat of migration by the Sikh community very seriously as this would mean the collapse of the last edifice of a secular state in the insurgency-affected Kashmir. Besides, the BJP feels a gesture towards Sikhs in Kashmir would be a right step in cementing their alliance with the Shiromani Akali Dal and the Sikh community.

Sikh leaders and organisations in the Valley are said to have told the Central team that the government, besides protection, must also create employmet opportunities for them. They said that they were all set to migrate after the Chittisinghpora massacre but had been persuaded to stay. Tomorrow?s meeting is considered significant as the Sikhs in the Valley are expected to take a collective decision on February 11 on the issue of mass migration.

Re : Dionysus ( #310 )

Sorry to say this but your ideas and opinions are totally wrong and you are totally clueless whatever you are talking about.

I am saying this because I come from so called ``Shudra`` family. You don`t know about this but India has an ``advanced`` form of affirmative action called reservations for SC/ST people. Because of that my father is now an Executive Director in Secretariat, Hyderabad, India. And because of this shudra status, I can`t tell you how much we 3 brothers have prospered. All of us are well employed and making six figure salaries. I recently got married and many of our relatives attented the party. Looking at them, I can tell you that many of them are doing well financially and socially.

So take your hate filled, myopic drivel out of here and spew it somewhere else. You seem to have learnt a lot of this hate from your cocaine sniffing afghani jehad friends who ethnically cleansed the whole kashmiri pundits from the valley.

Just because jehadis are languishing in their 11th century cocaine sniffing, jeans legs shooting culture doesn`t mean that we indians are also languishing in our 11th century culture. We are trying our best to become a developed nation and a fully functioning affirmative action is a part of that. This affirmative action will definitely bring all ``shudras`` to the level of rest of the people ( as I have become now ).

Oh, one more thing. If you ever visit india, please be careful when using the word ``shudra``. Because people around may not be willing to see you as a healthy person...

India and Pakistan, each has one really big bad thing in its path to progress- one is the caste system and the other Islam.

Islam will take Pakistan to the 7th century soon and the Caste system will keep India where it is now - a poor third world country.

. . . so let me understand this, friend and Dionysus, a caste system based on birth is absolutely haraam and not kosher, but one based on colour, money, religion, foreskin or lack thereof, nationality, passport, railroad brigand ancestry, military rule or gender, now that is highly halal.

Thank you, thank you, I have now seen the light.

Interim, I don`t know about your India, but the one I come from, increasingly the caste system is based on economics.

There again, I may be wrong. I got to go check with all the pandits living in slums . . .

Dionysuos,

Let me tell you what most of us hindus feel MOST fortunate about in this day & age. Hinduism doesnt have those savage mullahs that Islam has that makes liberal muslims genuinely scared of. Nobody is taking us hindus back to a previous era.

Yes, we have/had a lot of social problems like caste system, sati, dowry etc. But with the help of the govt, we are trying to revise it for the better.

Take caste, for eg. As far as education, jobs (esp in govt--which is one of the biggest employers) etc, you are truely BLESSED if you come from one of the oppressed castes. I personally have cursed my fate of being born brahmin. In order to gain admission in medical college, I(& the upper castes) had to bust our butts 100 times harder to get admission. Even if a ``shudra`` was rich ,it didnt matter. All he/she had to do was scrape by the entrance exam & a medical seat was guaranteed. Many of Bombay`s top consultants` children got into medical college because--surprise! the were from ``oppressed class``!! It puts the Affirmative Action program in the US to shame.

I have personally experienced `reverse discrimination`.I admit, I felt very bitter about it at the time; in the long run I think we are made to pay for the sins of our forefathers. Be that as it may, I`m proud that India is at least TRYING to rectify the social wrongs.

Eventhough the BJP/RSS is in power, whenever they make noises about the Ram Mandir, their own coalition partners & the opposition (most of whom are hindus, btw) slam them hard.

Hinduism is the true ``buffet religion``. Eventhough I`m brahmin, I eat beef. I`m not ashamed of it. I convinced my parents (God bless their liberal souls) that I have the right of follow the philosophy & call myself a hindu. However, I reject the rituals that I find idiotic. If some idiot from the RSS proclaims me a ``non-hindu``, I`ll show him the finger. If some bhatji dares issue a fatwa against me, I`ll shove his fatwa up his --you know where. There are no laws that will prevent me from eating beef & rejecting practices & rituals I dont agree with, & still call myself a hindu.

Just like many of you muslims thank your lucky stars that you are Pakistanis & not Indians; virtually every hindu in India would rather be Indian than Pakistani. So live happily with your Paki propaganda & please invite muslims who want to leave India to your busoms.

Read the handwriting on the wall. Pakistani is slowly & inexorably becoming fundamentalist. The only variable that is unknown is how long it will take. If you feel that that road is good for Islamic Pakistan, I`m happy for you. India is advancing (OK she frequently stumbles & falls on her face & the pace is much slower than I would like) .The economic/ technological gap between our countries is widening--inch by inch maybe. If Pakistan goes the way of Afganistan or Iran, that gap will widen much faster.

Many of you guys will dissmiss this as idle Indian propaganda. Lets justs agree to disagree.

Vereesh # 306

Probably it is your lo-lo-po-po style of writing that no one at Chowk has taken you to task so far.

Re: Dionysus

``A few dozen Pandits are killed``

You`ve got to be kidding. Take your burkha off your eyes to see reality. It is many, many more than that and they were cleansed or forced to move to alter the demographics of the region.

Dionysus, as I see it, India would be quite happy not talking to Pakistan. If Pakistan wants to talk it needs to get off its genocide-high-horse.

-Arun Gupta