Eathquake Hits India And Pakistan

Veeresh #306

That is a really stupid question that doesn`t really deserve an answer, but I`m in a good mood today.

In the civilised world, ie. outside of India, a rich man can become poor and vice versa. But in the Hindu caste system a Brahmin will always be a twice-born Brahmin and an Untouchable will always be untouchable, unseeable, unhearable and unapproachable.

Economy class is bad, but it isn`t much more than a minor inconvenience. Not at all like being a Shudra who is forced to clean the sh *t out of the toilets of the high-castes and who is expected to stand by watch and his women-folk being used to satisfy the lusts of the high-castes.

``Even if a Shudra acquires wealth, he must always remain a slave. His main job

is to wash the feet of the higher castes.``

PANCHVANISH BRAHMIN 3-1/1 I

``Even if a Shudra is learned and virtuous, he should not be given respect and honour.``

TULSIDAS BRAHMAN in his Ramayana

veeresh #306

You say

``How is a caste system different from:-

1) Private hospitals for rich people and public hospitals for poor? ....``

Please do not try to defend the indefensible. In all the examples given by you, if you somehow earn more money, you can buy the additional privilidges. Caste system created a unbreakable barrier based on birth that you could not bypass by any means. Let me give you examples of what I think case system is

1. My neighbour in Delhi, who is a PhD in Biology, but from DOM caste, had to walk barefoot whenever he used to visit his village in eastern UP.

2. In Bihar, I have seen lower caste people getting slapped because they dared to sit in front of a bhumihar.

3. Arundhati Roy shares in one of her interviews that in Kerala, lower caste Christians walk backwards cleaning their foot prints and talk with a hand on their mouth so that upper caste Christians do not get dirty.

4. I was told by my grand-father that natives were not allowed to ride a vehicle on some roads of mussoorie. These were reserved only for white skinned people. These Goras became a caste more holier that any of our own castes.

Regards

McGupta #300



A few dozen Pandits are killed, the finger of suspicion is pointed at India and this, according to you, is genocide by the Mujahideen. But 70 000 Kashmiri Muslims are slaughtered by the Indian Army and you Indians become bored?? Amazing.

The 700000 raping, murdering, torturing and occupying Indian solidiers are in Kashmir with only one purpose - to break the will of the Kashmiri nation and to therefore secure the Indian occupation. If that means raping and torturing then they will rape and torture. If that means commiting genocide then they will commit genocide.

BTW, anyone who has visited AJK and NAs will laugh at the Indian claim that Pakistan has changed the ethnic character of its part of J & K by flooding it with Punjabis and Pathans. Actually, we don`t laugh anymore when we here this ludicrous piece of Indian propoganda - our eyes just glaze over with boredom.

Re:Zahra #302

Here come the catholic proselytizers, the resident

experts of the caste system in India.

How is a caste system different from:-

1) Private hospitals for rich people and public hospitals for poor?

2) A ``do not walk on the grass`` sign for all but golfers who are members?

3) Separate check-in lines for economy, business and first class?

4) Davos?

5) Money spent on school in Bronx versus money spent on school in, say, Burbank?

6) ``Private Marina space`` on oceans where freedom of the seas is the law under which sailboat owners still terrorise motor-ships?

7) Rich desi kids from Pakistan and India studying in the US?

Whatever. I am sure earthquakes will stop and ask you to work on your theology first.

Fairdinkum #299

I don`t disagree with your point regarding situation in Pakistan.

As a person who is having luxury to interact on this forum apart from my job. I have to take stand according to my conscience.

As far as Islamic history goes, I think it needs to be seen in continuum. The primary reason was Islam which in my opinion can be described as Belief in one God, do good, fight against evil. Since this job was made very difficult in Meccah, so migration was done.

The situation in Kashmir is now that freedom movement has reached a critical stage. With the pains of rape, deaths in custody, militant`s death, tortures burning of houses and shops desecrecation of mosques etc. The struggle has crossed ten years and is more powerful even after 10 years.

People are devoted and committed to their cause. In this situation even if we cannot do anything at least we can give moral support.

Moreover even if there was no Kashmir issue, Pakistan would be in the same position on some other pretext.

fairdinkum,

Your #301 is spine-chilling! How did the Army get away with killing 6500 of it`s own citizens in Gilgit? What were the circumstances under which this you-know-the-g-word took place????

You sound terrible ominous in your last statement there too! Is that what you were referring to when you said `...get into trouble...`?

rgds

P

Ah, SAAG

Out of curiosity, with hundreds of thousands of lives obviously to his credit (as per SAAG), shouldn`t India be pressing for Musharraf to be tried as a war criminal rather than talking to him?

Out of curiosity, Arun, would you accept the papers from the Institute of Strategic Studies in Isloo as impartial?

Interesting!
---------
Quake Can`t Shake Caste System

By JOSEPH COLEMAN, Associated Press Writer

LAKHOND, India (AP) - The streets are strewn with rubble and house after house is a useless heap of stone. But there`s one structure that can`t be shaken in India, even by a killer earthquake - the caste system.

The town has six distinct tent camps for the earthquake homeless - all separated by caste or religion. When relief groups showed up to hand out aid, town leaders presented them with six lists of residents: four different Hindu castes, the untouchables - lower even than the formal caste system - and Muslims. All the camps are separate.

With the pattern repeated across the zone in western India ravaged by the Jan. 26 quake, relief groups find themselves wrestling with the country`s ingrained social hierarchy to get help to everybody - even untouchables.

``The whole issue of making sure all the castes are included has been a challenge,`` Graham Saunders of Catholic Relief Services said Wednesday as workers handed out buckets, soap and other aid to people in the town.

Officially, India`s traditional caste system - a social hierarchy with Brahmans at the top and the so-called ``untouchables`` at the bottom - has been illegal for decades, and discriminating against someone on the basis of caste in employment and housing, for example, can wind up in court. Unofficially, however, the social order in the countryside remains strong, determining how most people live, with whom they marry and socialize.

So while modernization and urbanization have blurred the lines between castes somewhat in the cities, in places like the quake-damaged villages of Gujarat the divisions are clear, and greatly complicate the already enormous challenges of getting relief to victims.

In the aftermath of the disaster, necessities are scarce and everyone is desperate for help. Those at the top of the pecking order use their connections and prestige to get the pick of the goods.

``Whatever the distribution of aid, it first goes to the upper castes,`` said Mayuri Mistry, a Catholic Relief Services worker in Gujarat.

The social hierarchy is only one of the problems with aid distribution. There have been complaints in the quake zone that political connections are playing a big role in determining who gets help.

The needs are overwhelming. The 7.7-magnitude quake killed more than 17,000 and left behind 1 million homeless, according to a United Nations (news - web sites) estimate. More than 60,000 were injured and survivors are in need of medical care, food, water and shelter.

The French group Doctors without Borders has a cultural anthropologist in Bhuj, near the epicenter, to coach workers on how to navigate the region`s social landscape.

``Indian villages look like a mess, but you know by the house what caste lives there,`` said Pilar Duch. ``You cannot think that a village is homogeneous. If you don`t know that, you can make a mistake.``

Her colleague Olaf Pots spent the day Wednesday moving from village to village northeast of Bhuj, assessing needs and handing out blankets, tarps for tents and water buckets.

But it was more than just a matter of dropping piles of aid off at each village and moving on. First he met with village leaders and figured out how many people lived in the town and what castes were represented.

Then came the hard part: deciding whether to hand over the goods to the top man in the village, distribute them among the leaders of the various castes in the town, or simply go door to door to make sure everyone got their share.

In Gada, a hilltop hamlet, Pots had a lengthy negotiation with village elders, peppering them with questions about the castes there and wringing from them guarantees that they would distribute the aid fairly.

A key to success is making sure there is enough to cover everyone in a village, so there is no fighting over short supplies.

For example, the sub-chief of Gada, Jiva Manda Rabari, assured Pots that he would see that the village`s four untouchable families would get their share - provided supplies were sufficient.

``You have to give us enough if you want them to get something,`` he said, adding that he would turn away deliveries that could not provide everyone with some relief.

In some towns, international organizations rely on local groups to police distribution. In nearby Traya, Pots struck a deal with the village elders to let a member of a local women`s development group supervise the handing out of blankets, tarps and water bottles.

In Lakhond, the leader of the untouchables there, Ramesh Kumar Hamirbhai, said he had no major problems with the distribution of aid so far, though he said the tradition of separating aid deliveries by caste caused unnecessary complications.

He said he preferred the way some international groups were operating, by gathering everybody in one place and handing out relief one person at a time.

``This is the best system,`` he said. ``This way, each and every person gets help.``

Arun #300

Thanks for the link. Apart from Zia/Musharraf`s role in Gilgit where an estimated 6500 Shias were massacred by Deobandi/wahabis with the help and support of Pakistan Army and other security forces, I am not aware of other incidents attributed to him. Perhaps Fuzair or Ummair can verify those... It is said that Pakistan army was infiltrated by wahabi extremists in large numbers during Zia`s reign. And Zia openly supported wahabi/deobandi elements in Pakistani armed forces... Jamat-e-Islami was very close to Zia due to his wahabi background... I think it was during Zia that armed forces of Pakistan included a seperate section for all applicants to declare what ``Islamic sect`` they belonged to.... this was in addition to ``Ahmedi`` and ``racial`` decleration sections of the application form.

The tension between Shia army personnel and wahabi infiltrators exploded in Quetta and parts of punjab in 80s. Zia also tried to change the Pakistan`s higest military award from Nishan-e-Hyder to Nishan-e-Khalid or something... He also banned nara-e-hyderi from SSG/commando units.

I am not sure about the cospiracy theory to kill him though... Gen. Fazl-e-Haq was definitely killed by Shias for his role in the killing of Arif Hussain Al-Husani...the then chief of TJF.
The rivelry between shias and orthodox wahabis goes back a long way in Pakistan and in Islamic history. If we are to see implementation of Taliban verion of Islam in Pakistan, it will be preceeded by killings of shias on a grand scale.
At least, that`s what the Islamic history tells us.

Genocide is ``systematic destruction by a government of a racial, religious, or ethnic group``.

Neither the Government of India nor the State Government of J&K is indulging in the systematic destruction of Kashmiris.

``Human rights violations`` does not equal genocide. For example, if a cop stops me for no good reason as I head home, that is a ``humans rights violation``.

So, when Pakistanis yell ``genocide`` Indians` eyes are going to glaze over with boredom.

On the other hand, the Jihadists have systematically sought to destroy Kashmiri Hindus and are by the given definition, guilty of genocide (though ethnic cleansing is more accurate).

The Government of India is not indulging in ethnic cleansing in Kashmir either. Nor is it doing what the Chinese are doing with the Tibetans or Uighurs or what the Sri Lankans tried with the Tamils or what the Bangladeshis are doing with the Chakmas (Chittagong Hill Tracts tribals), or that the Pakistani army alleged did with Shias in Gilgit -- namely, reducing them to a miniscule minority by resettling in people from outside.

-Arun Gupta

[{Under Zia} Gen. Musharraf started a policy of bringing in Punjabis and Pakhtoons from outside and settling them down in Gilgit and Baltistan in order to reduce the Kashmiri Shias to a minority in their traditional land and this is continuing till today.

http://www.saag.org/papers/paper66.html ]

Krashid #291

Dear Rashid,

You say:

“I will go for justice first than friendship.”

It is a noble thought indeed… however, in the context of Pakistan, justice should not be viewed in a narrow sense. Kashmir has caused immense pain and suffering for the people of Pakistan. The point has reached where the very existence of our nation is in doubt because of this senseless jihadism. We should take a leaf out of Mohammad’s book… he preferred to live in Medina so that Islam and Muslim can survive the difficult times… The way I look at it is that even Islam was put on hold for “people” … If Allah had wished, he could have destroyed all of Mohammad’s enemies and Mohammad wouldn’t have had to migrate to Medina… perhaps, there is a lesson in it for us Pakistanis… we should get our priorities right. Is it justice to put people of Pakistan through such pain and misery? Is it justice to those who earn their living on a day-to-day basis to have so many strikes, and such a bad law and order situation in Pakistan? Is it justice to unemployed? Is it justice to ignore the rapidly growing restlessness, depression, and an astronomical suicide rate in our society? Remember, one has to LIVE to fight another day…

The primary source of data such as I presented is the Govt. of India.

e.g.,

http://mha.nic.in/mil.htm

-Arun Gupta

RSaxena,

Hey maha-stupid! You used the ``p`` word, I did`nt. Is it my fault that your mind is in the gutter?

Sigh..when I refered to their ``guns``, I was talking about er... boom boom, like AK 47s. Kapish?!

Why do I have to explain everything to youre dirty little mind?

Oooh I hate you so. Thats what makes our friendship eternal.

Sorry, re #287, the citation is :

http://www.saag.org/papers2/paper192.htm

-Arun Gupta

shammi #286 Thanks for providing the example. That certainly goes to the credit of the Indian Army (and I say this coming from a family from which people have fought the Indian Army in both 1965 and in 1971). Let us hope the permanent international war crimes court being set up will do what nation-states have not done too well - bring to court the criminals who wear their military uniforms.