Eathquake Hits India And Pakistan

Harimanu #359

Do the Americans know India better than the Indians???

And oh yes, don`t forget: ``Garv say kaho hum Bharati hain!``

Concocting enemies



The list of ??anti-national activities?? in this country gets longer. A

new addition has come to light in the rubble of Kutch thanks to Nalin

Bhat. He is a senior Bharatiya Janata Party leader and it is a wonder

how even in the midst of death and catastrophe, and with his heavy

responsibilities as chairman of the state electricity board, he manages

to keep a sharp eye open for ??anti-national?? mischief. But he does

and the method he uses is, unfortunately, quite common. The easy way to

spot trouble is to start with the preconceived notion that anything the

minorities do is suspicious. So Bhat decides it is ??anti-national??

for a journalist to report and, by implication, for a minority group to

protest about unfair treatment in relief operations. It does not matter

that the report is accurate and can help remedy possible shortcomings

in relief operations by bringing them to wider notice. The mere writing

of such a report offends Bhat and he takes action. He prevents the

journalist, an Indian Expresscorrespondent, from filing any copy from

the Bhuj media centre and he tries to justify this egregious act of

censorship later on by saying Kutch is a sensitive border district.

If only Gujarat?s political leaders were more sensitive to real social

problems instead of concocting enemies. Someone should ask Nalin Bhat

what he thinks of caste segregation and prejudice in the Kutch town of

Adhoi also reported in this paper. For all the heightened concern that

he and others express for the nation, they have not been heard to

condemn caste practices such as those observed among the quake affected

in Adhoi. Those who perpetuate caste differences and discriminate

between people on grounds of caste or religion do terrible harm to the

social fabric of this country. It is deplorable that separate kitchens

have to be set up for Dalits, Patels and Brahmins and that Dalits have

to sleep in the cold in the open because the upper castes object to

sharing tented space with them and, being powerful, get the first

choice of tents.

Social prejudices are not going to disappear even in the midst of

common suffering. Therefore, the Gujarat government should take special

steps to ensure that there is no discrimination, no double standards,

no false priorities in the relief operations. Money and material have

been pouring into the state from official and private sources,

corporates, individuals and charities. Many donors will monitor the use

of their funds directly. Many others are not in a position to do so.

Taxpayers must be assured that funds will be efficiently and fairly

spent. It is essential for the government to prepare a rehabilitation

policy and to make it public as soon as possible. This has been found a

necessary and useful practice in other areas of major disasters such as

Latur in Maharashtra. A declared policy will help in the coordination

of relief work and of the rehabilitation plans of the public and

private sector. The people of Gujarat ought to know exactly what the

government is doing today and planning to do tomorrow.

Copyright © 2001 Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd.

Ref krashid #: 361

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Harimau #359

Hell with propangadist.

You are right brother.

You know and NYT knows even more about India.

.........

There were no seperate tents of different caste in India. That was for logistics reasons and does in no way reflect any caste bias.

----- End Quote --------

I suggest you go to www.channel4.com/kumbhmela/ and click on the icon for `Archives`.

Check the video for Tuesday, Jan 9.

Listen to Salim who has come to the Kumbh Mela, has bathed in the river, plans to spend two more weeks there and bathe in the Ganges several more times.

Then you can stay happy that Islam is out of danger in Pakistan.

Please do not read anything else about the Mela or watch any other video clips. They would tell you how the loftiest rich man is seated next to the poorest during the meal service.

It might shatter your belief about the strength of the caste system in India.

You wouldn`t want to be disillusioned, would you?

Your poor brain might not be able to cope with the fact a Muslim named Salim is attending the Mela.

It would definitely burst when you hear that there is no caste barrier at the Mela.

Shankar #363

I am fearful of the nuclear holocaust in this region myself.

Is there any chances to avert it?

A S. Bhattacharya posted this on the Indictraditions list.

-Arun Gupta

I just came across an article called Ghosts in the Dust of Gujarat in The Observer (a British) Sunday newspaper today by a Mike Davis whose new book ``Late Victorian Holocausts: El Nino, Famines and the Making of the Third World (Publ. Verso)`` is also reviewed in today`s paper.

In the article, Davis discussed the massive death toll caused by drought, famine and disease in Gujarat in 1901. He noted that the Mughals and Marathas had zealously policed the grain trade in the public interest, distributing free food, fixing prices and embargoing exports. A British writer was horrified that these ``Oriental Despots`` occasionally amputated equivalent amounts of flesh from traders who short-changed peasants during famines.

The British on the other hand, says Davis, worshipped the savage god ``Invisible Hand`` (a term I also refer to as a new god) and Curzon allowed the food surpluses in Eastern India to be exported to England or hoarded by speculators in heavily guarded depots (this is just like the 1770 and 1942-3 Bengal Famines, in the latter the surpluses from elsewhere were not shipped to Bengal and Bengal`s food was exported). Davis points out that Curzon, whose appetite for viceregal pomp was legendary, lectured starving villagers on endangering India`s financial position in the interests of prodigal philanthropy and referred to such alms-giving as a ``public crime``!

Davis states Despite Kiplinguesque myths of heroic benevolence, official attitudes were nonchalant. British officials rated Indian ethnicities like cattle, and vented contempt against them even when they were dying in their multitudes.`` In 1901, the Lancet estimated that 19 million had died in India during the previous decade from starvation and hunger-related disease.

Davis notes the important point that the railroads, ports and canals (which the British boast they gave to India) were used for resource extraction and not indigenous development. Later he notes, ``Not surprisingly, there was no increase in India`s per capita income during the whole period of British overlordship from 1757-1947. Celebrated cash-crop booms went hand in hand with declining agrarian production and food security.....throughout that `glorious imperial half century` from 1871-1921 immortalised by Kipling, the life expectancy of ordinary Indians fell by a staggering 20 per cent.``

Martin Bright, The Observer`s revier of Davis` book concludes his review with the statement ``Late Victorian Holocausts will redefine the way we think about the European colonial project. After reading this, I defy even the most ardent nationalist to feel proud of so-called `achievements of empire`.

It is time that Indian scholars compiled an authoritative study of the Raj-created or Raj-exacerbated famines and made this sort of knowledge of such holocausts widely available. The Bengal famine of 1942-3 is still hardly ever mentioned here in the UK.

Shankar #363

The revolution in Iran was not a Islamic revolution. It was a Nationalistic revolution hijacked ultimately by Khomeini.

Most of the oil wealth of Iran was going to West directly or indirectly with the help of their cronies at the helm of power in Iran in the form of Shah.

After the revolution a war was put on Iran for 8 years to destroy it. But it was unsuccessful.

The wealth of Iran with the isolation it faces is directly invested in infrastructure building and education.

Iran which was dependent on foreigners skills even for basic needs like Doctors or Engineers is now producing a good breed of doctors. The first heart transplant was done in 1990 or so by all Iranian doctors team.

(The justification of cruelty on opposition is by no means intended)

sateesh:

Janaab yeh daur aap tuk kayee murtabaa ayaa hai aur humm nai bohut mohabbat sey paish kya hai.Shayyad uss vaqt aap maujood naheen thhay.

``Agar naa thaa toO shareek e mehfil,qusoor teraa thha yaa kay maira?

miraa tareequaa naheeN key rakhoon,kissi kee khatir maye shabaana``

tr:if you were not at the party last night,was it you or I who is at fault?

It is not in my creed to present the overnight left-overs to those whoo never showed up;)

__________________________________________________

I really enjoyed & appreciated your apt quoting of Ghalib.

How about ``Quasid key jaattay---`` as my reply from the same ghazal.

__________________________________________________

Mcgupta:Yes there are definitely always the proverbial exceptions.They are many many more of them in India than in Pakistan.Was I really impressed by that lady who made the world Bank and IMF take a hasty retreat in the Narbada(Sardar Swarar Dam) incident.I also applaud the Superintendent of police who was despatched to quell & crush these ``uneducated`` ones and protect the gora/kalloo `educated` sahibs,and who resigned on-the-spot and joined the protest.I am very sad to admit that such kinds are called stupid in my supposedly Islamic Pakistan.

Mr.Bajpai & many others in India are NOT Ba Ba Blacksheep.From Ayub onwards Pakistan has been in the grip of these elitist so-called educated class and what is their performance?Fornication,drunkardness,bribes,money-mentia,uncultured/unrefinedness,licking the western boots but NEVER ad nauseum,giving lip-service to Islam.

People who define their boundaries & limit their options and ANNOUNCE them loud & clear rather than through eupheisms can always be trusted.Who does not have a grudging respect for a committed communist,kaffir or atheist.Faiz Ahmad Faiz and Maulaana Maudoodi had tremendous respect and affection for each other.When both were in the Jail cell(for treason)they wrote about their meetings in pleasant recalls.Maulana maudoodi has eulogised his rendevouz with him in fond terms.

``Marray butkhaanay mein,to kaabay mein garho brahman ko``

tr:If the Brahmin dies while steadfastly worshipping in the temple,then he deserves a burial in kaabaa.

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wassalaam

Dionysus #364
Re shame or pride of any Indian community, my point is, don`t fool yourself anyone mistakes your `concern` for any real empathy. Further if you donot even bother to keep yourselves properly informed on whats what where caste relations are concerned, then its even less convincing.

Re the BLESSED divide, it can remain as it is, no more redrawing boundaries for religion as far as Indians are concerned, we`ve seen enough of that meaningless senseless BS. Anyway, what are you going to do about it?

Sadhana

In reply to krashid :

There is no denying the many problems Indians face; but it is all a matter of attitude. Some people see the glass as half-empty. These days, I believe most Indians see the glass as half-full.

Perhaps it is just that they don`t want you to dash their illusions. Or maybe it is something else. But if you address Indians as a people with a glass half-full rather than half-empty, you might get a friendlier response.

-Arun Gupta

To Farangi_Kush, who wrote :

Ever wonder why no ba ba blacksheep NGO cannot work without walking/talking as if they do not belong to the soil & has no relatives among the `backward` people.The fad is to look & talk as much different from the people you are trying to serve.The idea is to change the `uneducated` rather than learn from them.No researcher acknowledges in their referece material what they learned from these `locals` lest there be aspersions cast about `educatedness`.

-- no doubt there are plenty of these. But there are the other kind as well. Seek and thou shalt be surprised !

-Arun Gupta

Re: F_K and Hindus

Mujh tak kab unki bazm me aata tha daur-e-jaam

Saqi ne kuchh mila na diya ho sharab me ...

;-)

sadna #355

Where did I say that the supposed low-castes should be ashamed??? Why do you make things up? Are you nuts or do you just like getting on your high horse? Perhaps a bit of both?

BTW, let`s make that BLESSED divide even more BLESSED by redrawing it around the Kashmir Valley and re-enforcing it with 100 metre high titatanium walls. Whaddya say?

KRashid,

{{I would recommend you to read some current facts about Iran, before writing something (probably you are influenced by propaganda)}}

I am the first one to admit that I`m no expert in these matters. Of course I`m influenced by American propaganda! I will believe a reputable US paper over any desi newspaper. EVERY country puts a ``spin`` on the news to fit their values, the US media is made up of a lot of Americans who love their country just as much as ``civilians``--they are as human as anyone in the world. Its virtually impossible for human beings to have a totally open mind. EVERYBODY has biases; including judges in the Supreme Court.

However, US media is the first one to slam its own country`s wrongs before any other countries. The media`s role in Watergate & Vietnam made the US question their values & the ``dominant discourse``, as Bilalji puts it. It was the US media that primarily won the war for North Vietnam. Which other country`s media has played such a profound role to change its own country from within.

Now, coming to Iran, the following is my PERCEPTION. I`m quite sure your perception is different & probably closer to the truth. You`ve had the advantage of working there.

If Iran did`nt have oil, economically, they would be screwed today. Islamic fundamental govts, did not progress as well as the Asian tigers--eventhough they had easy wealth at their disposal. Very few have invested wisely (at least, thats my perception). Eventhough the tigers are currently wounded; its a matter of time they`ll get up and start running again. Some of them are already running.

If Iran didnt have oil, my belief is they would be third rate country like Yemen, Sudan or Afghanistan. (chicken s *it countries that have destroyed their people by their own petty rivalries & civil wars). The golden Age of Persia has come & gone & I dont think it will ever be back.

No doubt their citizens today are spiritually richer in Islam because thats the fundamental plan of the govt. However, there is more to living in this world than just Islam. (To anybody who felt insulted by that statement, I apologise. I believe I have great respect for your religion).

This point pertains much to Indo-Pak. Since both countries have nuclear weapons & I dont think the underlying hatred will ever die away (at least not in another 53.5 years), the very nature of ``war`` will change between them . India & Pakistan will wage war with each other on the battlefield of ``influence with the superpowers``, education, industry , technology & economics. If Pakistan becomes the West rejecting, ``go back to & live the way we did 1400 yrs ago``, in short, F_K`s utopia--India will win those wars hands down.

My only prayer is that the idiots in India dont follow Pakistan`s example a become hindu fundamentalist nation. Then its 100% all out nuclear war between the two nations. In either scenario, Pakistan is screwed.

Watch the inspirational film on Earthquake

Click here to watch the inspirational film on Earthquake with soundtrack and

images.

http://www.klubq.com/earthquake/

Harimau #359

Hell with propangadist.

You are right brother.

You know and NYT knows even more about India.

70,000+ death of Kashmiris is a propaganda of Pakistan and Islamist.

There is no seperation movement going on in Assam, Manipur or Kashmir.

There is no need for UN observers to see the situation in India, because they are biased against India.

There were no seperate tents of different caste in India. That was for logistics reasons and does in no way reflect any caste bias.

The killing of lower caste Hindus in Bihar was a propaganda stunt created by Lalooo Prasad.

Oh India where everybody sleeps under shelter. Oh India where no one goes hungry. Oh India where women have sex for fun and people bad mouth it as selling their body. Oh India where people are filled with humility and out of fear of Bhagwan walk half naked, eat nothing and have no shelter and loathe education.

Oh India of my dreams why do people say they are poor. They have kicked the wealth of world which is brimming from every corner, but they are just not interested.

Harimau! I am with you regarding killing of any person who bad mouth India in the great secular and democratic tradition. In fact Magna Carta and all BS is a propaganda stunt of West. India has been a bastion of democracy for eons as far as history goes save for a few hundred years of heathen Muslim rule, who introduced all the evils like caste, sati, dowry etc. First Shudr in whose ear lead was put for listening Koran was in Aurangzeb rule.

P.S: Any body questioning the historical facts should see Bajrang Dal and RSS. He will be taught in the most appropriate way the history.

Shammi:#358

Harimau:#359

Thanks for the reprint.

Shammi,please substitute the word `simple-minded` for educated or learned in your intro.

This is the kind of stuff I am clamouring about here.Is it not high time that we start learning from THEM!

All the Indo-Paki `educated` kinds do is obtain phDs from BOOKS.Books,which were the result of direct learning acquired by the adventurous kind by giving up every possible material comfort.These are the real people who are soon forgotten by the cape & gown mujavirs,the job-position-seeking butterers of butts and toasters to theories.

Ever wonder why no ba ba blacksheep NGO cannot work without walking/talking as if they do not belong to the soil & has no relatives among the `backward` people.The fad is to look & talk as much different from the people you are trying to serve.The idea is to change the `uneducated` rather than learn from them.No researcher acknowledges in their referece material what they learned from these `locals` lest there be aspersions cast about `educatedness`.

Harimau:

I have always maintained that a true practising Hindu can get along very well with a true practising muslim and vice-versa.It is the secular/liberals,who shift with the shadows and lift with the light,who are the true curse in any part of the world.Except for the crusadesm & Karbala & maybe some others,there NEVER NEVER were religion based war in history of mankind.All wars were SECULAR(for money,material--that is the DICTIONARY meaning of secular--WORLDLY).It also sad & true that many times such wars were sanctioned by some clergy though NEVER initiated.

Before the arrival of the British thugs there were battles between the hindu-muslim-muslim-hindu-hindu rajas & kings BUT never hindu-muslim sectarianism.The 1000 years minus 150 years record is a testament to it.

Once those who are still suffering the trauma of colonialism come together(and which means almost all of non-european world)we can twist the tail of these thugs so well that they & their generations will regret the day they ventured out to loot & plunder the civilised worlds.

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wassalaam

Ref Dionysus #339

Since you seem to specialize in looking only for information that confirms your biases, here is something from NYT. Don`t read it, you might actually get a clue about life in today`s India.

February 10, 2001

In Indian Quake, Unity Overcame Diversity

By JOHN F. BURNS

HORI, India, Feb. 7 — When this village awoke on a bright winter`s morning two weeks ago, all the talk was of the village cricket championship to be played that afternoon on a dusty stretch of open ground beyond the main Hindu temple and the mosque and the tiny, cramped houses that are home to the village`s poorest people, the dalits, traditionally known as untouchables.

Dhori is what is known in India as a mixed village, meaning that it has a roughly balanced population of Hindus and Muslims, and a smaller group of untouchables — people still counted by many high- and middle- caste Hindus as lying outside the ancient caste system, decades after India`s Constitution banned caste distinctions.

But Jan. 26, the day of the cricket match, was Republic Day, marking the day in 1950 when the Constitution was adopted, and the mood in the village was to forget old distinctions. So as morning fires were lighted and pigs and goats and dogs fed, the talk was of three Dhori men expected to star in the game — each, as it happened, from a different village group, each renowned for his skill in the three disciplines that define cricket. There was Haroon, a bowler, who is a Muslim; Hari, a batsman, who is a middle-caste Hindu; and Hamir, a fielder, who is a dalit.

That cricket match, of course, was never played. At 8:46 a.m., the normal life of Dhori came to an abrupt, shattering end, with an earthquake that left more than 900 towns and villages buried under rubble, along with many unrecovered bodies, and 19,000 known dead, perhaps upward to 100,000.

What the match represented, however — the villagers` capacity to pull together, especially at times of crisis — did not fail. On the contrary, villagers say, it triumphed, with Hindus and Muslims — and untouchables, once shunned by other Hindus, forbidden to walk on village pathways or to draw from upper-caste wells — clawing together in the rubble for survivors, giving one another rudimentary medical care and combining in the first, confused steps toward recovery.

``Hath milana, hath milana,`` said Walji Bhai, the 54-year-old ``sarpanch,`` or village chief — a phrase that in his own rough translation from the Gujarati language means, ``In times of trouble, join hands.``

Dhori`s ill fortune that day was to lie only three miles from the earthquake`s epicenter, and about 20 miles, by dusty road and now heaved bridges, from Bhuj, a market town where perhaps 10,000 died. The village`s good luck was that many of the residents were out of their simple single-story homes of stone and slate — the men in the alleyways or fields, the women out washing and feeding the animals, the children, freed from school for the day because of the holiday, outside playing.

Only 10 people died, although 914 out of 940 homes were reduced to rubble; those that were not were so severely buckled that they, too, will have to be rebuilt. Also destroyed were the primary health care clinic, the veterinarian`s surgery, the high school, the primary school, the water tower, the mosque and three Hindu temples. Dhori, in fact, was obliterated, and its residents forced to fashion new shelters in open ground with salvaged timber and makeshift tarpaulins stitched together from sacks of wheat delivered by the first relief trucks.

What the earthquake could not sunder was the kinship between Mr. Bhai and his fellow villagers. As he took visitors on a tour of the devastation, he turned and clasped B. S. Saneja, a 38-year-old Muslim who was named to the village`s earthquake relief committee headed by Mr. Bhai, along with four other Hindus, two other Muslims, and three untouchables. Together, they paused for photographs inside the shattered 300-year-old mosque and elsewhere, Mr. Bhai casually resting his arm on Mr. Saneja`s shoulder.

``We were already close, so in the earthquake, it was the same,`` said Mr. Bhai, whose committee has invited 600 Muslims from a nearby village to take shelter in a tented village the Indian Army plans to set up on open ground beside Dhori.

Mr. Saneja, the Muslim committeeman, agreed. ``This communal trouble that has happened elsewhere, this is all wrong, it is all about the game of politics, not what the people want. In Dhori, you must believe me, we have no such thing in our minds.``

The story of faith and community in India since independence in 1947, when Britain partitioned the continent into the separate states of India and Pakistan, has been mixed. There have been sharp enmities, and three wars, between predominantly Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan, accompanied by tensions, sometimes bursting into riots, between Hindus and Muslims within India itself, where more than 100 million Muslims live in an Indian population of over one billion.

By some estimates, there have been more than 10,000 ``communal riots`` — between Hindus and Muslims — since independence, some of them resulting in hundreds of deaths. But there has been nothing like the 1947 bloodletting, when vast migrations, of Muslims to Pakistan and Hindus to India, led to massacres that some histories say killed a million people.

Mostly, Hindus and Muslims have lived peacefully, while maintaining, especially in villages, lives that are in important respects separate, with predominantly Hindu and Muslim residential quarters, separate charities and distinct festivals.

But what the earthquake demonstrated, according to survivors in many towns and villages, was that what unites Hindus and Muslims is greater than what divides them — and that where there are divisions, they are often fanned by politicians, many of whom, Indians say, build their support around creed or caste or ethnic group, and see gain in maintaining schisms.

The example most often cited is in the testy, often hostile relationship between India and Pakistan, which was tested anew in the earthquake, and showed, again, how hard politicians can find it to put human concerns first.

In the past week, sorties of C-130 military transport aircraft with Pakistan`s crescent moon insignia have been landing at Bhuj, unloading the first relief supplies ever to pass between the two countries. The government of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee initially refused Pakistan`s offer, saying India had enough. Later, under criticism, the government changed its position, setting off what Indian newspapers have dubbed ``earthquake diplomacy,`` a term previously applied to the contacts opened between Greece and Turkey after Greece sent aid to Turkey after a 1999 earthquake.

After a telephone conversation between the two leaders in which Mr. Vajpayee thanked Pakistan for its aid, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan`s military ruler, renewed suggestions of a summit meeting with Mr. Vajpayee over the disputed territory of Kashmir, saying he hoped cooperation in the earthquake ``can lead to further movement`` in ties between the two nations.

India — with Mr. Vajpayee reportedly in favor but hard-liners in his cabinet against — has so far rejected the overture, saying Pakistan must first halt all cross-border incursions into Kashmir by Muslim guerrillas.

Although this region on the border with Pakistan and Gujarat State has been the scene of numerous riots between Hindus and Muslims since 1947, little of the trouble has occurred here in the western part of the state. This is not to say that there are no strains.

One Muslim in Bhuj, Kumar Pir Mohammed, a 35-year-old bank teller, was hailed among Hindus in the Gokal district of the town when, in the hours after the earthquake, he rushed alone into a collapsed apartment block where middle-class Hindus lived to try to save a man calling his son`s name from deep in the rubble.

The man died before a slab pinning him could be lifted, but Mr. Mohammed, aided by others, succeeded in saving a young woman lying trapped nearby — coincidentally, a Muslim housemaid whose family lives near Mr. Mohammed`s.

Mr. Mohammed, with the full beard of a devout Muslim, said that he had stood for some time among a group of Hindus outside the ruined apartment block, reluctant to venture into the rubble in case he was accused of looting. Muslims in Bhuj, and the region, are generally poorer and less educated than Hindus, as they are on the average all across India, and Mr. Mohammed said he feared his motive could be mistaken. ``To me, at that moment, it made a difference that it was a Hindu building,`` he said. ``But I consider a human being a human being, and whosoever is in need, I should help.``

In Dhori, where Muslims and Hindus live in mixed neighborhoods, the village abounds with similar tales of Muslims helping save Hindus, and vice versa. Relief trucks reaching the village from two Indian charities — the Swaminarayan Trust, a Gujarat-based Hindu organizations that runs an extensive network of schools and temples, and Jamaat-e-Islami Hind, an Indian offshoot of a Muslim religious group that preaches an ascetic, sometimes militant brand of Islam — have handed over the supplies to Mr. Bhai`s relief committee, to be divided among the villagers without concern for faith.

``This is a Muslim house, that one is a Hindu house, and that one, again is a Muslim house — all mixed!`` said Mr. Bhai as he led the visitors down a pathway cleared between piles of rubble that had been homes, with buckled beds and smashed mirrors and the crumpled remains of motorbikes, three-wheeler taxis and, here and there, small cars, under mounds of heavy stones that had been walls.

``So how can we choose? How can we say, `This human being is more important than that human being?` No, no, before we are Muslims and Hindus, we are human beings, we are creatures of God.``