Eathquake Hits India And Pakistan
Chowk P Room January 27, 2001
#404 Posted by msarwar on April 2, 2001 10:25:37 pm
Partners in spirit, partners in fact
By William Jefferson Clinton
Over the past eight years, I had the privilege of traveling to nearly 100 nations around the world on behalf of the United States of America. There are few trips that meant as much to me than the journey I took last year to India. This week, I will return to India.
When you think about how you`d like the world to look in 20 years - in Africa, in Asia, in Latin America, even in the Middle East - it`s hard to imagine how we could build the future we want without a partnership between the world`s two greatest democracies. After all, India and America are natural allies, each conceived in liberty, each finding strength in diversity, each seeing in the other a reflection of its own aspirations for a more humane and just world. But even though our democratic ideals gave us a common starting point, and our dreams of peace and prosperity gave us a common destination, for too long there was too little common ground between us.
I came to India last year with the hope that my visit would help the American people to see a new India and to better understand this proud nation that has given so many gifts to the world. In turn, I hoped that my visit would help India to better understand America. I believed that listening to one another, we could lay the foundation for a true partnership between our two nations based on mutual respect and common endeavour. I was heartened to see that following that many Indians now believe that a new day has dawned between us.
Of all the displays of grace that I saw on that trip last year, none compare to the overwhelming response of the Indian people to the victims and families of the devastating earthquake in Gujarat. Over the past two months, the tireless efforts of all those involved in the relief effort have proven that the worst natural disaster in Independent India`s history has brought out the best in its people.
But as news of the tragedy fades from world headlines, the urgency of the work still to be done must not. That is why I am returning to India -- to tour the affected areas, to meet with families and relief agencies, and to bring new attention to the challenge of reconstruction that remains.
As India knows all too well, there is much to be done. The numbers alone numb the senses -- more than 20,000 dead, 1.7 million injured, one million homeless. More than 1,200 schools were destroyed. More than one million homes must be repaired or rebuilt. For all the work that has been completed, damage estimates still reach above 350 billion rupees. And there is no way of accounting for livelihoods lost and lives disrupted.
Nothing can erase the devastating loss of the earthquake. Perhaps the best way to honor those who were lost in this terrible tragedy is work with the survivors to create a better future.
One positive development over the past two months is that the tragedy in Gujarat has given impetus to the creation of a new organization in America called the American India Foundation. This is a group of distinguished Indian-Americans who have contributed a great deal to our country, and who want to deepen their engagement with India to help India realise its vision for the 21st Century. This week, more than 20 distinguished members of this Foundation will tour Gujarat with me.
We hope to work with the people of this region to achieve their vision of a new Gujarat -- to work with government agencies, non-governmental organizations (NGO`s), and concerned Indians not just to build Gujarat back, but to build it better. In the short term, we hope to work with local officials in any way they need us to provide relief to meet basic needs and help Gujarat get back on its feet, be it rebuilding schools and providing teachers; repairing hospitals and providing doctors; or empowering people to reopen businesses by making credit available.
In the long-term, we want to be a resource to the people of Gujarat as they work toward their dream of bringing this region and its people into the 21st Century: by wiring schools for the Internet and other tools of the new economy; by bringing the next life-saving devices into hospitals and health centers; by using new technology to help local craftsmen market their products across India and across the world; by including local villagers in the planning process to avoid the well-intentioned but widely acknowledged mistakes of Latur and construct new buildings designed not only to withstand future earthquakes, but to meet the needs of local citizens. For centuries, the vision of the Indian people helped change the world. That same vision is at work in villages across the region today, and we will be honored to be a part of it.
While we pray that no future disasters will visit India, we know that nature has not been so kind. As many in Parliament have expressed, we share the hope that our common efforts to rebuild Gujarat will serve as a model for future efforts, particularly as Parliament works toward establishing a federal emergency management agency for India. This is intended to help the people of India endure everything from tornadoes to floods to hurricanes and emerge, in the end, even stronger.
All of this work will not be completed quickly. But the partnership I spoke of last year between the people of the United States and the people of India is not subject to time limits or deadlines. This is how partners in spirit become partners in fact. I pledge to do all I can to help make that goal a reality.
(Former US President Bill Clinton wrote this article exclusively for The Times of India.)
By William Jefferson Clinton
Over the past eight years, I had the privilege of traveling to nearly 100 nations around the world on behalf of the United States of America. There are few trips that meant as much to me than the journey I took last year to India. This week, I will return to India.
When you think about how you`d like the world to look in 20 years - in Africa, in Asia, in Latin America, even in the Middle East - it`s hard to imagine how we could build the future we want without a partnership between the world`s two greatest democracies. After all, India and America are natural allies, each conceived in liberty, each finding strength in diversity, each seeing in the other a reflection of its own aspirations for a more humane and just world. But even though our democratic ideals gave us a common starting point, and our dreams of peace and prosperity gave us a common destination, for too long there was too little common ground between us.
I came to India last year with the hope that my visit would help the American people to see a new India and to better understand this proud nation that has given so many gifts to the world. In turn, I hoped that my visit would help India to better understand America. I believed that listening to one another, we could lay the foundation for a true partnership between our two nations based on mutual respect and common endeavour. I was heartened to see that following that many Indians now believe that a new day has dawned between us.
Of all the displays of grace that I saw on that trip last year, none compare to the overwhelming response of the Indian people to the victims and families of the devastating earthquake in Gujarat. Over the past two months, the tireless efforts of all those involved in the relief effort have proven that the worst natural disaster in Independent India`s history has brought out the best in its people.
But as news of the tragedy fades from world headlines, the urgency of the work still to be done must not. That is why I am returning to India -- to tour the affected areas, to meet with families and relief agencies, and to bring new attention to the challenge of reconstruction that remains.
As India knows all too well, there is much to be done. The numbers alone numb the senses -- more than 20,000 dead, 1.7 million injured, one million homeless. More than 1,200 schools were destroyed. More than one million homes must be repaired or rebuilt. For all the work that has been completed, damage estimates still reach above 350 billion rupees. And there is no way of accounting for livelihoods lost and lives disrupted.
Nothing can erase the devastating loss of the earthquake. Perhaps the best way to honor those who were lost in this terrible tragedy is work with the survivors to create a better future.
One positive development over the past two months is that the tragedy in Gujarat has given impetus to the creation of a new organization in America called the American India Foundation. This is a group of distinguished Indian-Americans who have contributed a great deal to our country, and who want to deepen their engagement with India to help India realise its vision for the 21st Century. This week, more than 20 distinguished members of this Foundation will tour Gujarat with me.
We hope to work with the people of this region to achieve their vision of a new Gujarat -- to work with government agencies, non-governmental organizations (NGO`s), and concerned Indians not just to build Gujarat back, but to build it better. In the short term, we hope to work with local officials in any way they need us to provide relief to meet basic needs and help Gujarat get back on its feet, be it rebuilding schools and providing teachers; repairing hospitals and providing doctors; or empowering people to reopen businesses by making credit available.
In the long-term, we want to be a resource to the people of Gujarat as they work toward their dream of bringing this region and its people into the 21st Century: by wiring schools for the Internet and other tools of the new economy; by bringing the next life-saving devices into hospitals and health centers; by using new technology to help local craftsmen market their products across India and across the world; by including local villagers in the planning process to avoid the well-intentioned but widely acknowledged mistakes of Latur and construct new buildings designed not only to withstand future earthquakes, but to meet the needs of local citizens. For centuries, the vision of the Indian people helped change the world. That same vision is at work in villages across the region today, and we will be honored to be a part of it.
While we pray that no future disasters will visit India, we know that nature has not been so kind. As many in Parliament have expressed, we share the hope that our common efforts to rebuild Gujarat will serve as a model for future efforts, particularly as Parliament works toward establishing a federal emergency management agency for India. This is intended to help the people of India endure everything from tornadoes to floods to hurricanes and emerge, in the end, even stronger.
All of this work will not be completed quickly. But the partnership I spoke of last year between the people of the United States and the people of India is not subject to time limits or deadlines. This is how partners in spirit become partners in fact. I pledge to do all I can to help make that goal a reality.
(Former US President Bill Clinton wrote this article exclusively for The Times of India.)
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#403 Posted by Pardesi on February 21, 2001 11:29:07 pm
For Kabuliwala:
* * *
Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh!
Dear Sangat,
Please find this report on the Gujarat situation from the Sikh involvement
and support. This report has been obtained from the Guru Gobind Singh Study
Circle in Mumbai.
Contribution by Sikh Organizations to the Earth Quake Victims in Gujarat,
India.
As one enters Bachau from the Ahmedabad side, the first banner proclaims
``Guru Ka Langar``, the legendary community kitchen of the Sikhs. Like others
from all over India, this community is also contributing its mite towards
the relief operations for the earthquake affected. The highway at Bhachau
is overcrowded with relief camps set-up by various organizations.
All types of materials, from rations, to medicines to drinking water are
available in plenty. Whereas sending contributions, or at the most
distributing it to major town like Bachau, Bhuj and Anjar satisfies most
social organizations, the Sikhs have taken it upon themselves to venture
into remote and inaccessible areas ignored by others. The Langar run by
Sikh organizations at various locations through out Kutch is a boon, even
to other voluntary organizations.
Bhuj Gurudwara, which itself is extensively damaged, serves Langar not only
to the local homeless, but also about 200 children of the neighboring
orphanage, families of Police and Air Force personnel. Volunteers from
various organizations working at Bhuj have also benefited from this
facility.
Besides running 24 hours langar services, Sikh organizations from all over
India have come together to help their brethren in Gujarat in their hour of
need. After all, the House of Guru Nanak has always strived to serve all
humanity, without any consideration towards caste or creed. Bhai Kanhiya, a
legendary Sikh social worker was known to provide drinking water and
first-aid even to the injured enemy solders. Today, his followers are
carrying out his good work by providing support and succor to the neglected
Dalits and Muslims of the border area of Kutch.
In fact the Sikh organizations have carried out surveys and have asked for
areas which no one is interested in serving. They prefer to serve the
economically weaker and the backward sections of Society. A pleasant
surprise is the well coordinated effort made by diverse bodies having a
common aim. Organizations like Bhai Kanhiya International, Mumbai; Bhuj
Gurudwara Committee; Bir Khalsa Dal, Mumbai; Dashmesh Sevak Jatha, Mumbai;
Delhi Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee; Gandhidham Gurudwara Committee;
Gurmat Missionary College, Mumbai; Guru Gobind Singh Study Circle,
Maharashtra; Malad Gurudwara Committee, Mumbai; Nishkam Sikh Welfare
Council, Delhi; Sri Guru Singh Sabha, Mumbai; etc. are working together to
live up to the
ideals of Sikhism.
In all, over 350 volunteers from all over India have arrived with more than
50 truckloads of relief material, including food grains, medicines, items
of daily requirements, warm blankets and tents. Each organization has taken
upon itself to work in a different area. Yet, they are all networked
together and have achieved a rare level of interaction, ensuring that the
people of the region get the maximum benefit. Relief camps are set-up only
after carrying out a proper survey and ensuring that there is no duplicity
of efforts. For example, the Gandhidham Gurudwara, besides running the
standard Langar for 5000 people, has also set-up a free STD(Standard Trunk
Dialling) (a payphone) center. This round-the-clock facility is available
to everyone. Doctors from Nishkam Sikh Welfare Council have set-up a
Medical camp in the interior of Khavda, about 100 kms from
Bhuj. They are treating over 100 patients everyday, providing relief to a
population of about 20,000 people. These people have so far been
deprived of even the most basic medical facilities and had relied on
doctors in Bhuj or Khavda. In fact, most of the patients at the medical
camp are not quake-effected, but people with chronic problems, ranging from
knee pain for the past 6 years to pain for the last 12-13 years.
Along with the Medical camp, volunteers of Guru Gobind Singh Study Circle,
Maharashtra and Gurmat Missionary College, Mumbai have set-up a ration
distribution center. They have set-up a very systematic distribution
mechanism, which ensures that every family in the area gets its fair share
of material. Within 3 days, they have managed to cover a population of over
14,000 people. The local people are very satisfied with their efforts and
are cooperating fully, even participating in the distribution process. Even
the Bhuj Collector`s office has adopted their system of distribution
through community leaders. The local police also do not have any hesitation
in guiding the needy to this camp. In fact, the area under this camp has
steadily increased from about 10 villages to over 15 villages. Now, they
intend to set-up another camp about 25 kms further, so that they can cover
more villages. Besides distributing the material, volunteers travel deep
into the interior and personally survey the villages to ensure equal
distribution and to identify the needs of the people.
On the other hand, Dashmesh Sevak Jatha has opted to work in the Mothi
Cherai area of Bhachau. Here, more than rations, the villagers need help in
clearing the debris and disposing off the dead. From their base camp in
Mothi Cherai, these volunteers have also provided rations to about 15-20
far-flung hamlets, which are inaccessible. The innovative youth of the
community have used all types of conveyance ranging from tempos,
tractor-trolleys to army jeeps and even the local ``Chakdha``, a 3-wheeler
vehicle based on the bullet motorcycle. They have quickly learned to drive
these sturdy contraptions and are seen moving about from one cluster of
houses to another, providing items of daily necessity and enquiring about
any other requirements. With their tireless work and humble approach, they
have endeared themselves to the villagers, even though language is a
barrier. The local people have so much faith on these volunteers that they
even request them to retrieve their jewelry, cash and important documents.
These assets are the very last hope of survival for these once-rich
villagers. The grateful villagers have even handed over retrieved
vehicles to the volunteers for their use. Whereas other relief committees
have distributed material for tents and left, it is these Sikh volunteers
who are helping the villagers to erect the tents. The dedicated and sincere
effort of these volunteers has impressed other organizations also. Bharat
Petroleum and Bank of Punjab, who had initially planned to distribute the
relief material personally, have gladly handed over their stock to these
bodies, with the full confidence that it will reach the truly deserving.
Besides the Sikh bodies, many Sikh individuals from the area are also
putting their whole-hearted efforts to help the needy and the downtrodden.
Prominent amongst these are Dr. Charanjit Singh Ajwani of Ankleshwar, whose
residence has been converting into an operations office and who is
co-ordinating the communication between the various filed units and their
respective offices. Baba Jassa Singh of Bharuch has also moved into Bhuj
with his team of volunteers. Mrs. Brar, Wife of Gujrat IGP, Mr. Brar is
tirelessly moving through out the region, helping the relief committees to
identify areas where they can work and guiding them about the type of
relief required in each area. The collectors of Bhuj and Bhachau are also
satisfied with the genuine and tireless effort but in by these bodies. They
do not hesitate to sanction any relief material required by them, knowing
fully well that there is no question of any misuse.
Currently, 2 JVCs (village council areas) have been allotted to the relief
team at Mothi Cherai. The Nishkam Medical camp and distribution centre is
running from a Police outpost. Now that most organizations are planning to
move out, the Sikhs are looking towards a more meaningful and long-term
contribution to the development of the area. Based on its experience in
running the medical camp, Nishkam is planning to set-up a full-fledged
dispensary near-about Khavda.
Sri Guru Singh Sabha is evaluating its options regarding rehabilitating the
Sikhs of Gandhidham. Dashesh Seva Jatha also plans to involve itself in the
reconstruction of the houses. No matter in what way they contribute, the
dedicated and self-less service of the Sikhs is bound to leave a lasting
impression upon the people of Kutch.
#2
I came to know from various sources that many Gurdwaras and Sikh
institutions in United States are collecting funds to help the earthquake
victims in Gujrat. May I suggest channeling these funds through two of our
Gurdwaras in Ahmedabad, who have taken a leadership role in providing food,
clothing and shelter to the victims.The names, addresses and phone numbers
of these Gurdwaras are given below:
Singh Sabha Gurdwara
Dhudheshwar Road
Ahmedabad.
011-91-79-562 5022
Contact Person: Kartar Singh
Gobinddham Gurdwara
Thaltej Char Rasta
Surkhej - Gandhinagar Hwy.
Ahmedabad 380054
011-91-79- 685 2069
Contact Person: Jagjit Singh
Punjab is sending on an average 30 to 40 trucks full of grain, clothiers,
blankets, tents etc. to Ahmedabad to help the local Gurdwaras, who are
actively involved in the rescue mission. All these necessities of life are
then taken to Bhuj and nearby villages. Approximately 80% of Bhuj area is
destroyed by earthquake. Gurdwara in Bhuj about which I mentioned in my
previous posting was being run by the Military. Its latest status is being
inquired and we are waiting for an update.
With best wishes for the Charhdi Kala of Khalsa Panth,
In the service of Guru Panth
Kuldeep Singh
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
SIKHNET NOTE:
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
If you live in the US or Canada you can also send contributions for
earthquake victims to:
``Sikh Dharma Gujarat Earthquake Relief Fund``
Mail contributions to:
Sikhnet - P.O. Box 249, Santa Cruz, NM. 87567, U.S.A.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
This service has been provided to you as a courtesy of SIKHNET.
Visit Sikhnet on the Internet
* * *
Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh!
Dear Sangat,
Please find this report on the Gujarat situation from the Sikh involvement
and support. This report has been obtained from the Guru Gobind Singh Study
Circle in Mumbai.
Contribution by Sikh Organizations to the Earth Quake Victims in Gujarat,
India.
As one enters Bachau from the Ahmedabad side, the first banner proclaims
``Guru Ka Langar``, the legendary community kitchen of the Sikhs. Like others
from all over India, this community is also contributing its mite towards
the relief operations for the earthquake affected. The highway at Bhachau
is overcrowded with relief camps set-up by various organizations.
All types of materials, from rations, to medicines to drinking water are
available in plenty. Whereas sending contributions, or at the most
distributing it to major town like Bachau, Bhuj and Anjar satisfies most
social organizations, the Sikhs have taken it upon themselves to venture
into remote and inaccessible areas ignored by others. The Langar run by
Sikh organizations at various locations through out Kutch is a boon, even
to other voluntary organizations.
Bhuj Gurudwara, which itself is extensively damaged, serves Langar not only
to the local homeless, but also about 200 children of the neighboring
orphanage, families of Police and Air Force personnel. Volunteers from
various organizations working at Bhuj have also benefited from this
facility.
Besides running 24 hours langar services, Sikh organizations from all over
India have come together to help their brethren in Gujarat in their hour of
need. After all, the House of Guru Nanak has always strived to serve all
humanity, without any consideration towards caste or creed. Bhai Kanhiya, a
legendary Sikh social worker was known to provide drinking water and
first-aid even to the injured enemy solders. Today, his followers are
carrying out his good work by providing support and succor to the neglected
Dalits and Muslims of the border area of Kutch.
In fact the Sikh organizations have carried out surveys and have asked for
areas which no one is interested in serving. They prefer to serve the
economically weaker and the backward sections of Society. A pleasant
surprise is the well coordinated effort made by diverse bodies having a
common aim. Organizations like Bhai Kanhiya International, Mumbai; Bhuj
Gurudwara Committee; Bir Khalsa Dal, Mumbai; Dashmesh Sevak Jatha, Mumbai;
Delhi Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee; Gandhidham Gurudwara Committee;
Gurmat Missionary College, Mumbai; Guru Gobind Singh Study Circle,
Maharashtra; Malad Gurudwara Committee, Mumbai; Nishkam Sikh Welfare
Council, Delhi; Sri Guru Singh Sabha, Mumbai; etc. are working together to
live up to the
ideals of Sikhism.
In all, over 350 volunteers from all over India have arrived with more than
50 truckloads of relief material, including food grains, medicines, items
of daily requirements, warm blankets and tents. Each organization has taken
upon itself to work in a different area. Yet, they are all networked
together and have achieved a rare level of interaction, ensuring that the
people of the region get the maximum benefit. Relief camps are set-up only
after carrying out a proper survey and ensuring that there is no duplicity
of efforts. For example, the Gandhidham Gurudwara, besides running the
standard Langar for 5000 people, has also set-up a free STD(Standard Trunk
Dialling) (a payphone) center. This round-the-clock facility is available
to everyone. Doctors from Nishkam Sikh Welfare Council have set-up a
Medical camp in the interior of Khavda, about 100 kms from
Bhuj. They are treating over 100 patients everyday, providing relief to a
population of about 20,000 people. These people have so far been
deprived of even the most basic medical facilities and had relied on
doctors in Bhuj or Khavda. In fact, most of the patients at the medical
camp are not quake-effected, but people with chronic problems, ranging from
knee pain for the past 6 years to pain for the last 12-13 years.
Along with the Medical camp, volunteers of Guru Gobind Singh Study Circle,
Maharashtra and Gurmat Missionary College, Mumbai have set-up a ration
distribution center. They have set-up a very systematic distribution
mechanism, which ensures that every family in the area gets its fair share
of material. Within 3 days, they have managed to cover a population of over
14,000 people. The local people are very satisfied with their efforts and
are cooperating fully, even participating in the distribution process. Even
the Bhuj Collector`s office has adopted their system of distribution
through community leaders. The local police also do not have any hesitation
in guiding the needy to this camp. In fact, the area under this camp has
steadily increased from about 10 villages to over 15 villages. Now, they
intend to set-up another camp about 25 kms further, so that they can cover
more villages. Besides distributing the material, volunteers travel deep
into the interior and personally survey the villages to ensure equal
distribution and to identify the needs of the people.
On the other hand, Dashmesh Sevak Jatha has opted to work in the Mothi
Cherai area of Bhachau. Here, more than rations, the villagers need help in
clearing the debris and disposing off the dead. From their base camp in
Mothi Cherai, these volunteers have also provided rations to about 15-20
far-flung hamlets, which are inaccessible. The innovative youth of the
community have used all types of conveyance ranging from tempos,
tractor-trolleys to army jeeps and even the local ``Chakdha``, a 3-wheeler
vehicle based on the bullet motorcycle. They have quickly learned to drive
these sturdy contraptions and are seen moving about from one cluster of
houses to another, providing items of daily necessity and enquiring about
any other requirements. With their tireless work and humble approach, they
have endeared themselves to the villagers, even though language is a
barrier. The local people have so much faith on these volunteers that they
even request them to retrieve their jewelry, cash and important documents.
These assets are the very last hope of survival for these once-rich
villagers. The grateful villagers have even handed over retrieved
vehicles to the volunteers for their use. Whereas other relief committees
have distributed material for tents and left, it is these Sikh volunteers
who are helping the villagers to erect the tents. The dedicated and sincere
effort of these volunteers has impressed other organizations also. Bharat
Petroleum and Bank of Punjab, who had initially planned to distribute the
relief material personally, have gladly handed over their stock to these
bodies, with the full confidence that it will reach the truly deserving.
Besides the Sikh bodies, many Sikh individuals from the area are also
putting their whole-hearted efforts to help the needy and the downtrodden.
Prominent amongst these are Dr. Charanjit Singh Ajwani of Ankleshwar, whose
residence has been converting into an operations office and who is
co-ordinating the communication between the various filed units and their
respective offices. Baba Jassa Singh of Bharuch has also moved into Bhuj
with his team of volunteers. Mrs. Brar, Wife of Gujrat IGP, Mr. Brar is
tirelessly moving through out the region, helping the relief committees to
identify areas where they can work and guiding them about the type of
relief required in each area. The collectors of Bhuj and Bhachau are also
satisfied with the genuine and tireless effort but in by these bodies. They
do not hesitate to sanction any relief material required by them, knowing
fully well that there is no question of any misuse.
Currently, 2 JVCs (village council areas) have been allotted to the relief
team at Mothi Cherai. The Nishkam Medical camp and distribution centre is
running from a Police outpost. Now that most organizations are planning to
move out, the Sikhs are looking towards a more meaningful and long-term
contribution to the development of the area. Based on its experience in
running the medical camp, Nishkam is planning to set-up a full-fledged
dispensary near-about Khavda.
Sri Guru Singh Sabha is evaluating its options regarding rehabilitating the
Sikhs of Gandhidham. Dashesh Seva Jatha also plans to involve itself in the
reconstruction of the houses. No matter in what way they contribute, the
dedicated and self-less service of the Sikhs is bound to leave a lasting
impression upon the people of Kutch.
#2
I came to know from various sources that many Gurdwaras and Sikh
institutions in United States are collecting funds to help the earthquake
victims in Gujrat. May I suggest channeling these funds through two of our
Gurdwaras in Ahmedabad, who have taken a leadership role in providing food,
clothing and shelter to the victims.The names, addresses and phone numbers
of these Gurdwaras are given below:
Singh Sabha Gurdwara
Dhudheshwar Road
Ahmedabad.
011-91-79-562 5022
Contact Person: Kartar Singh
Gobinddham Gurdwara
Thaltej Char Rasta
Surkhej - Gandhinagar Hwy.
Ahmedabad 380054
011-91-79- 685 2069
Contact Person: Jagjit Singh
Punjab is sending on an average 30 to 40 trucks full of grain, clothiers,
blankets, tents etc. to Ahmedabad to help the local Gurdwaras, who are
actively involved in the rescue mission. All these necessities of life are
then taken to Bhuj and nearby villages. Approximately 80% of Bhuj area is
destroyed by earthquake. Gurdwara in Bhuj about which I mentioned in my
previous posting was being run by the Military. Its latest status is being
inquired and we are waiting for an update.
With best wishes for the Charhdi Kala of Khalsa Panth,
In the service of Guru Panth
Kuldeep Singh
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
SIKHNET NOTE:
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
If you live in the US or Canada you can also send contributions for
earthquake victims to:
``Sikh Dharma Gujarat Earthquake Relief Fund``
Mail contributions to:
Sikhnet - P.O. Box 249, Santa Cruz, NM. 87567, U.S.A.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
This service has been provided to you as a courtesy of SIKHNET.
Visit Sikhnet on the Internet
#402 Posted by farangi_kush on February 20, 2001 2:37:57 am
(This is without the typos--I hope)
rsridhar:#402
Thanks for your clarification.
In spite of what logic is used to justify it,the human imagination surpasses all temporal forms.
Is it not that we are able to remember our loved ones even without the photographs or idols? Do we not think about them and phone or write to them?
The ones who are no longer with us we still have fond memories of them deep within our hearts.
Have you wondered that the moment we acquire temporal/material possession of something we somehow value it less? Case in point:we remember & savour a movie & the joyful experience of revisiting it in our memories but the moment we acquire a copy of it we do not cherish it that much.
You must be aware of a lot of people from agra who have never visited the Taj Mahal.How about meeting one of our cherished hero in person & then going through the torment of wishing that the image in the mind was better than the real thing.Has not a book always turned out to be better than the movie?
To provide solace to those who find comfort in whatever form of ritual is indeed one of the great power of belief.I certainly would never even suggest to counter it,let alone criticise.
At the same time it is also very gratifying & fullfilling (& therefore comforting) to try to catch the essence of the faith,without the patina of Time & crust of superstition---only if one is blessed to do so.
Many are called,few are chosen.
I wish you well.
``Allah agar taufeeque na dey,insaan kay buss ka kaam naheeN
Faizaan e mohabbat aam sahee,irfaan e mohabbat aam naheeN.``
tr:If Allah does not bestow it(upon someone),it is not within human capacity.
The blessings of Love might be widespread,to be a gnostic of it is not.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
__________________________________________________
rsridhar:#402
Thanks for your clarification.
In spite of what logic is used to justify it,the human imagination surpasses all temporal forms.
Is it not that we are able to remember our loved ones even without the photographs or idols? Do we not think about them and phone or write to them?
The ones who are no longer with us we still have fond memories of them deep within our hearts.
Have you wondered that the moment we acquire temporal/material possession of something we somehow value it less? Case in point:we remember & savour a movie & the joyful experience of revisiting it in our memories but the moment we acquire a copy of it we do not cherish it that much.
You must be aware of a lot of people from agra who have never visited the Taj Mahal.How about meeting one of our cherished hero in person & then going through the torment of wishing that the image in the mind was better than the real thing.Has not a book always turned out to be better than the movie?
To provide solace to those who find comfort in whatever form of ritual is indeed one of the great power of belief.I certainly would never even suggest to counter it,let alone criticise.
At the same time it is also very gratifying & fullfilling (& therefore comforting) to try to catch the essence of the faith,without the patina of Time & crust of superstition---only if one is blessed to do so.
Many are called,few are chosen.
I wish you well.
``Allah agar taufeeque na dey,insaan kay buss ka kaam naheeN
Faizaan e mohabbat aam sahee,irfaan e mohabbat aam naheeN.``
tr:If Allah does not bestow it(upon someone),it is not within human capacity.
The blessings of Love might be widespread,to be a gnostic of it is not.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
__________________________________________________
#401 Posted by farangi_kush on February 20, 2001 2:37:57 am
rsridhar:#402
Thanks for your clarification.
In spite of what logic is used to justify it,the human imagination surpasses all temporal forms.
Is it not that we are able to remember our loved ones even without the photographs or idols? Do we think about them and phone or write to them?
The ones who are no longer with us we still have fond memories of them deep within our hearts.
Have you wondered that the moment we acquire temporal/material possession of something we somehow value it less? Case in point:we remember & savour a movie & the joyful experience of revisiting it in our memories but the moment we acquire a copy of it we do not cherish it that much.
You must be aware of a lot of people from agra who have never visited the Taj Mahal.How about meeting one of our cherished hero in person & then going through the torment of wishing that the image in the mind was better than the real thing.Has not a book always turned out to be better than the movie?
To provide solace to those who find comfort in whatever form of ritual is indeed one of the great power of belief.I certainly would never even suggest to counter it,let alone criticise.
At the same time it is also very gratifying & fullfilling (& therefore comforting) to try to catch the essence of the faith,without the patina of Time & crust of superstition---only if one is blessed to do so.
Many are called,few are chosen.
I wish you well.
``Allah agar taufeeque na dey,insaan kay buss ka kaam naheeN
Faizaan e mohabbat aam ahee,irfaan e mohabbat aam naheeN.``
tr:If Allah does not bestow it(upon someone),it is not within human capacity.
The blessings of Love might be widespread,to be a gnostic of it is not.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
__________________________________________________
Thanks for your clarification.
In spite of what logic is used to justify it,the human imagination surpasses all temporal forms.
Is it not that we are able to remember our loved ones even without the photographs or idols? Do we think about them and phone or write to them?
The ones who are no longer with us we still have fond memories of them deep within our hearts.
Have you wondered that the moment we acquire temporal/material possession of something we somehow value it less? Case in point:we remember & savour a movie & the joyful experience of revisiting it in our memories but the moment we acquire a copy of it we do not cherish it that much.
You must be aware of a lot of people from agra who have never visited the Taj Mahal.How about meeting one of our cherished hero in person & then going through the torment of wishing that the image in the mind was better than the real thing.Has not a book always turned out to be better than the movie?
To provide solace to those who find comfort in whatever form of ritual is indeed one of the great power of belief.I certainly would never even suggest to counter it,let alone criticise.
At the same time it is also very gratifying & fullfilling (& therefore comforting) to try to catch the essence of the faith,without the patina of Time & crust of superstition---only if one is blessed to do so.
Many are called,few are chosen.
I wish you well.
``Allah agar taufeeque na dey,insaan kay buss ka kaam naheeN
Faizaan e mohabbat aam ahee,irfaan e mohabbat aam naheeN.``
tr:If Allah does not bestow it(upon someone),it is not within human capacity.
The blessings of Love might be widespread,to be a gnostic of it is not.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
__________________________________________________
#400 Posted by rsridhar on February 19, 2001 3:29:21 pm
Re: Firangi_Kush,# 396
I agree with you about Hindus worshipping one God. Hinduism is actually a monotheistic religion.
Rig Veda says and i quote ``Ekam tat;Vipra bahuna vadanti`` meaning ``That (God) is one;different people call It by different names``. Upanishad says`` sarvam khalvidam brahmam`` meaning ``everything is Brahman`` (or the supreme spirit;not to be confused with Brahmin which is a caste). The same truth has been repeated again and again by various prophets,sages and seers. Why do hindus worship idols and so many gods then? The answer to that may be in Patanjali`s Yogasutra. In that spiritual classic written more than 2000 years ago in Sanskrit, Patanjali describes a scientific way of attaining God. In describing various steps of Ashtanga Yoga (or the eightfold yoga),one of steps is Dhyana or concentration. But concentrate on what? You cannot concentrate on a vaccum. Image of statues is what most hindus concentrate on, be it in a temple or while meditating in seclusion. Sages who have seen God (people like Ramakrishna Paramhamsa) have said that at some point when one has advanced far into this technique,the image of the idol is what the worshipper sees in every being. Following this,even this image disappears and all that remains is the formless Absolute Spirit (or what we call as God). Thus for most common folks and even for many sages, worshipping the image becomes the common starting point. Since there is no dearth of images, one can choose what one is comfortable with or attracted to. These images each have their own stories and legends attached to them. People believe in these legends. In the end it is all faith that matters.
rsridhar
I agree with you about Hindus worshipping one God. Hinduism is actually a monotheistic religion.
Rig Veda says and i quote ``Ekam tat;Vipra bahuna vadanti`` meaning ``That (God) is one;different people call It by different names``. Upanishad says`` sarvam khalvidam brahmam`` meaning ``everything is Brahman`` (or the supreme spirit;not to be confused with Brahmin which is a caste). The same truth has been repeated again and again by various prophets,sages and seers. Why do hindus worship idols and so many gods then? The answer to that may be in Patanjali`s Yogasutra. In that spiritual classic written more than 2000 years ago in Sanskrit, Patanjali describes a scientific way of attaining God. In describing various steps of Ashtanga Yoga (or the eightfold yoga),one of steps is Dhyana or concentration. But concentrate on what? You cannot concentrate on a vaccum. Image of statues is what most hindus concentrate on, be it in a temple or while meditating in seclusion. Sages who have seen God (people like Ramakrishna Paramhamsa) have said that at some point when one has advanced far into this technique,the image of the idol is what the worshipper sees in every being. Following this,even this image disappears and all that remains is the formless Absolute Spirit (or what we call as God). Thus for most common folks and even for many sages, worshipping the image becomes the common starting point. Since there is no dearth of images, one can choose what one is comfortable with or attracted to. These images each have their own stories and legends attached to them. People believe in these legends. In the end it is all faith that matters.
rsridhar
#399 Posted by shammi on February 16, 2001 11:57:31 am
This article shows that construction practices that have been perfected over centuries withstood the test of time and the earthquake:
FEATURE-Mud huts stand firm amid killer Indian quake ruins
By Suresh Seshadri
NANATUNDA NAVAVAAS, India, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Mohammed Yusuf proudly points to a cluster of tiny mud huts standing erect in a village in the quake-ravaged western Indian state of Gujarat.
Then he gestures to a pile of rubble, the only remains of a cement-and-concrete dwelling which was once a symbol of upward mobility in his tiny tribal village of Nanatunda Navavaas in Gujarat`s arid marshland.
No longer.
``All the 84 bhungas (mud homes) in our village are still standing strong, while these new pucca (permanent) houses that a few amongst us had built just crumbled in the quake,`` Yusuf, the village headman, says.
The monster earthquake that ripped through the region in January killed upwards of 30,000 people in the coastal state.
Only a handful of families in the poor village of predominantly Muslim Samma tribals had permanent concrete homes in a landscape dotted with basic conical huts made of mud, twigs and dried grass.
The 1,200-odd Samma tribals near Pakistan in the Kutch region, which bore the brunt of the January 26 earthquake, now say they are glad they did not switch to modern homes.
PROVED STURDIER
They say their traditional homes based on centuries of indigenous knowledge gleaned from surviving in the quake-prone region have proved to be much sturdier than the new brick-and-cement constructions.
Villagers in Nanatunda Navavaas, 75 km (47 miles) north of the town of Bhuj which suffered huge damage in the quake, say they got off lightly only because of their traditional mud homes.
``Most of us in our tribe were lucky and except for the three who were taken by the Maker,`` says Mitta Lakhmir, the eldest son in a family of seven and a father of five children.
Three people from the village, including an old man and two children, were killed in the quake which struck with terrifying intensity on the morning of January 26 -- India`s Republic Day.
Lakhmir pointed out a few minor cracks that surfaced in the baked mud walls of his traditional home after the quake which clocked 7.7 on the Richter scale.
``Nothing happened in here, we just felt the world around us wobble and spin, but the roof made of twigs just stayed intact,`` he said, pointing to the interior of the dark, cool hut.
LIFE EASIER FOR TRIBALS
The tribals, whose language and cheerful loose cotton clothes and headgear suggest a racial and cultural affinity to the Sindhis across the border in Pakistan, farm coarse millets during the June-September monsoon and work as labourers the rest of the year.
Lakhmir said people in the neighbouring, mainly Hindu, settlement of Khavda had not been as fortunate because most of them were living in concrete dwellings.
``The toll (of dead and injured) there was higher but we were thankfully able to quickly help them by giving them blankets and other warm clothing,`` Lakhmir says.
Flawed design, poor construction material, flouting of building codes and lack of simple quake-proofing measures resulted in a death toll far higher than it should have been in Gujarat, quake experts say.
While many quake victims in Gujarat are still grappling with the process of rebuilding their lives, post-quake life has been much easier for the Samma tribals.
Children played without a care as a group of colourfully dressed women were busy cooking lunch near Yusuf`s hut.
About 75 students belonging to the village`s only Madarsa or Muslim religious school are back to studying in makeshift tents after their school building collapsed in the quake.
``The army gave us 200 feet of tarpaulin sheet and we erected this makeshift Madarsa five days ago so my students can get back to their study of the scriptures,`` religious preacher Abdul Aziz shouted over the metronomic chanting of Koranic verses.
FEATURE-Mud huts stand firm amid killer Indian quake ruins
By Suresh Seshadri
NANATUNDA NAVAVAAS, India, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Mohammed Yusuf proudly points to a cluster of tiny mud huts standing erect in a village in the quake-ravaged western Indian state of Gujarat.
Then he gestures to a pile of rubble, the only remains of a cement-and-concrete dwelling which was once a symbol of upward mobility in his tiny tribal village of Nanatunda Navavaas in Gujarat`s arid marshland.
No longer.
``All the 84 bhungas (mud homes) in our village are still standing strong, while these new pucca (permanent) houses that a few amongst us had built just crumbled in the quake,`` Yusuf, the village headman, says.
The monster earthquake that ripped through the region in January killed upwards of 30,000 people in the coastal state.
Only a handful of families in the poor village of predominantly Muslim Samma tribals had permanent concrete homes in a landscape dotted with basic conical huts made of mud, twigs and dried grass.
The 1,200-odd Samma tribals near Pakistan in the Kutch region, which bore the brunt of the January 26 earthquake, now say they are glad they did not switch to modern homes.
PROVED STURDIER
They say their traditional homes based on centuries of indigenous knowledge gleaned from surviving in the quake-prone region have proved to be much sturdier than the new brick-and-cement constructions.
Villagers in Nanatunda Navavaas, 75 km (47 miles) north of the town of Bhuj which suffered huge damage in the quake, say they got off lightly only because of their traditional mud homes.
``Most of us in our tribe were lucky and except for the three who were taken by the Maker,`` says Mitta Lakhmir, the eldest son in a family of seven and a father of five children.
Three people from the village, including an old man and two children, were killed in the quake which struck with terrifying intensity on the morning of January 26 -- India`s Republic Day.
Lakhmir pointed out a few minor cracks that surfaced in the baked mud walls of his traditional home after the quake which clocked 7.7 on the Richter scale.
``Nothing happened in here, we just felt the world around us wobble and spin, but the roof made of twigs just stayed intact,`` he said, pointing to the interior of the dark, cool hut.
LIFE EASIER FOR TRIBALS
The tribals, whose language and cheerful loose cotton clothes and headgear suggest a racial and cultural affinity to the Sindhis across the border in Pakistan, farm coarse millets during the June-September monsoon and work as labourers the rest of the year.
Lakhmir said people in the neighbouring, mainly Hindu, settlement of Khavda had not been as fortunate because most of them were living in concrete dwellings.
``The toll (of dead and injured) there was higher but we were thankfully able to quickly help them by giving them blankets and other warm clothing,`` Lakhmir says.
Flawed design, poor construction material, flouting of building codes and lack of simple quake-proofing measures resulted in a death toll far higher than it should have been in Gujarat, quake experts say.
While many quake victims in Gujarat are still grappling with the process of rebuilding their lives, post-quake life has been much easier for the Samma tribals.
Children played without a care as a group of colourfully dressed women were busy cooking lunch near Yusuf`s hut.
About 75 students belonging to the village`s only Madarsa or Muslim religious school are back to studying in makeshift tents after their school building collapsed in the quake.
``The army gave us 200 feet of tarpaulin sheet and we erected this makeshift Madarsa five days ago so my students can get back to their study of the scriptures,`` religious preacher Abdul Aziz shouted over the metronomic chanting of Koranic verses.
#398 Posted by krashid on February 16, 2001 11:57:31 am
Harimau #395
To tell you the truth.
You are falling into a trap.
Farangi-Kush name itself means.(Killers of Foreigners)
They first call you by good names and then tell you to give the highest award. Not even prophets are buried in Kaaba, so you can understand the sacredness of that place and pride of being buried there.
Once you fall in his trap. He will invite you to dinner to discuss the ways and means of achieving the aim of burial in Kaaba. Also as a matter of religious secularism he will invite you to drink. Since he is a Muslim, he will not drink and will be sobre. When you are fully drunk, he will do what I have alluded to before. Mar Kar Gaarh Dena.
Since I have found a coattail like pious Salim the BATHER in your person. I don`t want to loose you and start searching another Mahan Aatma.
To tell you the truth.
You are falling into a trap.
Farangi-Kush name itself means.(Killers of Foreigners)
They first call you by good names and then tell you to give the highest award. Not even prophets are buried in Kaaba, so you can understand the sacredness of that place and pride of being buried there.
Once you fall in his trap. He will invite you to dinner to discuss the ways and means of achieving the aim of burial in Kaaba. Also as a matter of religious secularism he will invite you to drink. Since he is a Muslim, he will not drink and will be sobre. When you are fully drunk, he will do what I have alluded to before. Mar Kar Gaarh Dena.
Since I have found a coattail like pious Salim the BATHER in your person. I don`t want to loose you and start searching another Mahan Aatma.
#397 Posted by krashid on February 16, 2001 11:57:31 am
Harimau #398
I again agree with you.
I will communicate this message to program director, who is a bearded guy. (Difficult to guess whether he is jewish or Muslim. But since he is respected for his beard, that beard must be jewish).
On cleaning guy or janitorial stuff, I am in slight disagreement with you. I not only respect the person who earns by hardwork, but if I have to earn my living by doing janitorial stuff, I will feel myself proud to earn by my hardwork.
Any way these slight disagreement on insignificant matters, is a sign of secularism and democracy to which both of us are very fond of in our own way.
Like Salim the pious, you will also find me agreeing with you on almost all matters.
And like Salim the pious, I will continue to give weight to your opinions whether you speak good of me or bad.
I again agree with you.
I will communicate this message to program director, who is a bearded guy. (Difficult to guess whether he is jewish or Muslim. But since he is respected for his beard, that beard must be jewish).
On cleaning guy or janitorial stuff, I am in slight disagreement with you. I not only respect the person who earns by hardwork, but if I have to earn my living by doing janitorial stuff, I will feel myself proud to earn by my hardwork.
Any way these slight disagreement on insignificant matters, is a sign of secularism and democracy to which both of us are very fond of in our own way.
Like Salim the pious, you will also find me agreeing with you on almost all matters.
And like Salim the pious, I will continue to give weight to your opinions whether you speak good of me or bad.
#396 Posted by harimau on February 15, 2001 3:54:31 pm
Ref shankar #: 391
[I made harimau your soulmate.]
Read my reply to krashid.
You two could start a group practice. He can try to train you not to worship your penis-God and you can try to cure him of his delusions of Moghul grandeur. Together, you can try to convince Barrister Amer that democracy is not haram.
Hopefully, that will keep the both of you occupied so that we don`t have to read your mouse-droppings on the Chowk.
I haven`t seen a single doctor with so much time on his hands like Shankar or krashid. I suspect they are part of the janitorial staff in some nursing home.
Krashid, in case I am wrong about your janitorial stuff, if you are doing your residency, let me tell you one thing. When your director tells you to read journals, he doesn`t mean the publications of Al Azhar University.
[I made harimau your soulmate.]
Read my reply to krashid.
You two could start a group practice. He can try to train you not to worship your penis-God and you can try to cure him of his delusions of Moghul grandeur. Together, you can try to convince Barrister Amer that democracy is not haram.
Hopefully, that will keep the both of you occupied so that we don`t have to read your mouse-droppings on the Chowk.
I haven`t seen a single doctor with so much time on his hands like Shankar or krashid. I suspect they are part of the janitorial staff in some nursing home.
Krashid, in case I am wrong about your janitorial stuff, if you are doing your residency, let me tell you one thing. When your director tells you to read journals, he doesn`t mean the publications of Al Azhar University.
#395 Posted by harimau on February 15, 2001 3:54:31 pm
Ref krashid #: 394
If you study psychiatry, you can set up a group practice with that quack Shankar.
In fact, you to can psycho-analyze each other.
Not that it would do any good but at least you would be practicing quackery on each other instead of subjecting the unsuspecting population to your brand of BS.
If you study psychiatry, you can set up a group practice with that quack Shankar.
In fact, you to can psycho-analyze each other.
Not that it would do any good but at least you would be practicing quackery on each other instead of subjecting the unsuspecting population to your brand of BS.
#394 Posted by farangi_kush on February 15, 2001 3:54:31 pm
harimau:#395
Thank you.
Hindus are NOT supposed to be idolators.If the prctice has take root then it is simply as much a deviation from the RIGHT PATH(sirat-ul-mustaqueem) as all other religions today.
The Patanjali(from vedas),The Gita,and the book Samkhaya have very explicitly emphasised the One & Only God.
[The reason I do not reproduce material from books is that those who are really interested would pursue this after getting the lead.Those who try to convince by quotations simply end up in polemics.
I stay away from discussions on religion & Islam because I have access to more learned people than those here on chowk.The ONLY times I retorted & tried to respond in the same (bad) language when my religion is under siege & attack.I NEVER initiated any ridicule.
For the same reason I stay away from ``discussions`` on Kashmir or such issues.I am as naive at that as about matters related to hi-tech or shriat/fiqhue.]
__________________________________________________
Most of the well know hindus like Tagore & his kind belonged to Brahmusamaj and strictly adhered to praying to One God only.I believe the Narang hindus(mostly from Sind & Baluchistan) are also the same.There must be others I am not aware of.
__________________________________________________
``Suntaa hooN key kaffir naheeN hindu ko samajhtaa
Hai aisaa aqueedah asar e falsfaa daani``
tr:I`ve heard the he(Iqbal) does not consider the hindu,kaafir,
Now that`s his creed,corrupted by philosophies.
(A maulvi lamenting about Iqbal`s gone astray)
P.S:I am ashamed to admit that I am not as pious a muslim as you might think or I would like to be.
But you`ve shown(& shone) the way!
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
Thank you.
Hindus are NOT supposed to be idolators.If the prctice has take root then it is simply as much a deviation from the RIGHT PATH(sirat-ul-mustaqueem) as all other religions today.
The Patanjali(from vedas),The Gita,and the book Samkhaya have very explicitly emphasised the One & Only God.
[The reason I do not reproduce material from books is that those who are really interested would pursue this after getting the lead.Those who try to convince by quotations simply end up in polemics.
I stay away from discussions on religion & Islam because I have access to more learned people than those here on chowk.The ONLY times I retorted & tried to respond in the same (bad) language when my religion is under siege & attack.I NEVER initiated any ridicule.
For the same reason I stay away from ``discussions`` on Kashmir or such issues.I am as naive at that as about matters related to hi-tech or shriat/fiqhue.]
__________________________________________________
Most of the well know hindus like Tagore & his kind belonged to Brahmusamaj and strictly adhered to praying to One God only.I believe the Narang hindus(mostly from Sind & Baluchistan) are also the same.There must be others I am not aware of.
__________________________________________________
``Suntaa hooN key kaffir naheeN hindu ko samajhtaa
Hai aisaa aqueedah asar e falsfaa daani``
tr:I`ve heard the he(Iqbal) does not consider the hindu,kaafir,
Now that`s his creed,corrupted by philosophies.
(A maulvi lamenting about Iqbal`s gone astray)
P.S:I am ashamed to admit that I am not as pious a muslim as you might think or I would like to be.
But you`ve shown(& shone) the way!
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
#393 Posted by harimau on February 15, 2001 6:59:51 am
Ref krashid #: 394
[It is my duty to warn you of consequences of desiring to be buried in Kaaba.]
I don`t think you understand the verse Farangi_Kush posted or my response.
The verse means `Honor the man who loves God, no matter what his religion is`.
It also means that he who lives according to the precepts of his religion is worthy of God`s grace, no matter that he may not worship Allah. In the final analysis, this says God doesn`t discriminate on WHO you worshipped but HOW you worshipped, affirming that there is but one God, no matter what we choose to call Him.
Farangi_Kush is an example of a pious Muslim whereas you are an example of someone with a superficial understanding of religion who mindlessly repeats what he reads in books.
Farangi_Kush will leave me alone to practice my idolatry if I leave him alone to his religion. In that sense, he is a secularist. I am not at all sure about you in this matter.
I may violently disagree with his views on women`s rights in Islam but you don`t see him taunting Hindus about sati or about the penis-God. He is only concerned about his own religion and protecting its integrity.
That is the difference that you, krashid, and a few others on Chowk might want to learn if you want amity between people of different faiths.
His references to Ba Ba Blacksheep are a call to all people to wake up to their heritage and follow it rather than mindlessly follow what we are taught: which is usually that all concepts and ideas come from the West and Asians and Africans have no contributions to make to the evolution of human thought, when the exact opposite has been true until the West colonized Asia and Africa.
Aside to Bilal Ahmad Sahib: Has it occurred to you that F_K chose his handle to convey the idea that he is opposed to foreign ideological domination? Just a thought.
[It is my duty to warn you of consequences of desiring to be buried in Kaaba.]
I don`t think you understand the verse Farangi_Kush posted or my response.
The verse means `Honor the man who loves God, no matter what his religion is`.
It also means that he who lives according to the precepts of his religion is worthy of God`s grace, no matter that he may not worship Allah. In the final analysis, this says God doesn`t discriminate on WHO you worshipped but HOW you worshipped, affirming that there is but one God, no matter what we choose to call Him.
Farangi_Kush is an example of a pious Muslim whereas you are an example of someone with a superficial understanding of religion who mindlessly repeats what he reads in books.
Farangi_Kush will leave me alone to practice my idolatry if I leave him alone to his religion. In that sense, he is a secularist. I am not at all sure about you in this matter.
I may violently disagree with his views on women`s rights in Islam but you don`t see him taunting Hindus about sati or about the penis-God. He is only concerned about his own religion and protecting its integrity.
That is the difference that you, krashid, and a few others on Chowk might want to learn if you want amity between people of different faiths.
His references to Ba Ba Blacksheep are a call to all people to wake up to their heritage and follow it rather than mindlessly follow what we are taught: which is usually that all concepts and ideas come from the West and Asians and Africans have no contributions to make to the evolution of human thought, when the exact opposite has been true until the West colonized Asia and Africa.
Aside to Bilal Ahmad Sahib: Has it occurred to you that F_K chose his handle to convey the idea that he is opposed to foreign ideological domination? Just a thought.
#392 Posted by krashid on February 14, 2001 1:20:29 am
Harimau #392
I agree with you again.
It is my duty to warn you of consequences of desiring to be buried in Kaaba.
I agree with you again.
It is my duty to warn you of consequences of desiring to be buried in Kaaba.
#391 Posted by farangi_kush on February 13, 2001 8:09:40 pm
harimau:#392
Exactly that IS (& more) that is meant.
On a more factual/practical level you might be happy to know that It was the ulemas/mullahs who offered and made Gandhiji to address from the ``minmbar``(pulpit)of the Jamia Mosque Delhi.
Such IMAM station is reserved for only the deserving even among the muslims.Such honour was never & since then has ever been accorded to any non-muslim.
``The way we were``
__________________________________________________
A nugget for you harimau:
Faiz Ahmad Faiz was presented with a gold-ring by one of his sikh admirers.The ring had ``ALLAH`` engraved upon it.
Someone quipped:``So now Faiz sahib,at least you got converted to Islam by a sikh``
and Faiz,the sharp wit that he was:``Not necessarily so.Some might think this as a good Sikh joke``
(apologies to sikhs,but this was told by I.K.Gujral himself)
__________________________________________________
wassalaam
Exactly that IS (& more) that is meant.
On a more factual/practical level you might be happy to know that It was the ulemas/mullahs who offered and made Gandhiji to address from the ``minmbar``(pulpit)of the Jamia Mosque Delhi.
Such IMAM station is reserved for only the deserving even among the muslims.Such honour was never & since then has ever been accorded to any non-muslim.
``The way we were``
__________________________________________________
A nugget for you harimau:
Faiz Ahmad Faiz was presented with a gold-ring by one of his sikh admirers.The ring had ``ALLAH`` engraved upon it.
Someone quipped:``So now Faiz sahib,at least you got converted to Islam by a sikh``
and Faiz,the sharp wit that he was:``Not necessarily so.Some might think this as a good Sikh joke``
(apologies to sikhs,but this was told by I.K.Gujral himself)
__________________________________________________
wassalaam
#390 Posted by harimau on February 13, 2001 5:05:17 pm
Ref krashid #: 386
[Bhai Kis Ke Chakkar Mein Aa Gaye.
Bohat Marte Hain phir Gaar Dete Hain.
Is to Sharafat Ki Zaban Mein Kabah Mein Dafan Karna Kahte Hain.
Warna Kabah Mein Ghair Muslim Zinda ya Murda Ka Kia Kaam.]
Let me say one thing. A PIOUS Muslim will not falsely swear with his hand on the Quran that a kafir committed blasphemy. A person who thinks that he might financially benefit by false accusations will do it precisely because he does not truly believe in the Holy Quran.
Hence my statement that I would not mind living in an avowedly Islamic society populated by pious, God-fearing people. They may pity me for my idolatrous ways but they will leave me alone to MY piety. Wasn`t that the meaning of the verse that Farangi_Kush quoted?
The Indian subcontinent was populated by people who were afraid of lying, holding it to be a great sin. Hence you didn`t have these blasphemy issues coming up in the past. The very fact that these come up so frequently today is proof that people have no regard for their scriptures and are always looking for an angle to make money or to make converts.
[Bhai Kis Ke Chakkar Mein Aa Gaye.
Bohat Marte Hain phir Gaar Dete Hain.
Is to Sharafat Ki Zaban Mein Kabah Mein Dafan Karna Kahte Hain.
Warna Kabah Mein Ghair Muslim Zinda ya Murda Ka Kia Kaam.]
Let me say one thing. A PIOUS Muslim will not falsely swear with his hand on the Quran that a kafir committed blasphemy. A person who thinks that he might financially benefit by false accusations will do it precisely because he does not truly believe in the Holy Quran.
Hence my statement that I would not mind living in an avowedly Islamic society populated by pious, God-fearing people. They may pity me for my idolatrous ways but they will leave me alone to MY piety. Wasn`t that the meaning of the verse that Farangi_Kush quoted?
The Indian subcontinent was populated by people who were afraid of lying, holding it to be a great sin. Hence you didn`t have these blasphemy issues coming up in the past. The very fact that these come up so frequently today is proof that people have no regard for their scriptures and are always looking for an angle to make money or to make converts.
#389 Posted by shankar on February 13, 2001 10:43:20 am
RSaxena,
{{Wow, your insight is blinding. I don`t think anyone would have known all that had you not so cleverly informed us.}}
Youre welcome pal! I posted it especially for you! I have a duty to keep my best friend on Chowk informed & up to date. Also, you owe me one--I made harimau your soulmate.
{{Wow, your insight is blinding. I don`t think anyone would have known all that had you not so cleverly informed us.}}
Youre welcome pal! I posted it especially for you! I have a duty to keep my best friend on Chowk informed & up to date. Also, you owe me one--I made harimau your soulmate.
#388 Posted by ali1 on February 13, 2001 4:04:17 am
RE: 375 Dionysus
{``ISI@we`re-gonna-screw-India-up-the-ass.org.pk``}
Mere Bhai, rush to your HMO and get your sphincter examined ASAP. Or just dab a cotton swab in that general area to see the color red.
The only ass_es that are bleeding after the mis-adventures of ISI+Mullahs belong to Pakistanis.
{``ISI@we`re-gonna-screw-India-up-the-ass.org.pk``}
Mere Bhai, rush to your HMO and get your sphincter examined ASAP. Or just dab a cotton swab in that general area to see the color red.
The only ass_es that are bleeding after the mis-adventures of ISI+Mullahs belong to Pakistanis.
#387 Posted by rsridhar on February 13, 2001 4:04:17 am
Re: Caste System
Hi folks,
I am reading a lot of stuff on caste system in this forum,so i thought i will say my bit.
Caste System or ``varnas`` as they were called in the vedic period were based strictly on vocation. Except for the lowermost caste (called Dalits today)rest were free to change their vocation. The writer of Mahabarata, sage Vyasa, was born to a fisherwoman. He is considered foremost among the sages in ancient India. He was the one who gathered all the 4 Vedas which lay scattered all over Bharat and compiled them into one.The writer of the other great epic Ramayana,Valmiki, was born in a low caste also. Both, because of their scholarship, were considered brahmins. Brahmin in those times simply meant ``the knower of Brahman or God``. These were pious people who spent most of their time in reading and teaching students. They had no power but commanded a lot of respect. The kings of those times sent their sons to these men for education.
I believe it was much later that the system became hierarchial (spelling?). Brahmins came to acquire some previleges that they steadily held on to. The easy mobility between the castes early on disappeared.
Caste system as it exists today is a curse. While affirmative action has helped a number of people from the underprevileged class,it has not removed the barriers of caste system. A person from lower caste who has made it good continues to hold on to his caste.
It is wrong to think that everyone from high caste in India is well off. I personally know a number of poor brahmins in Madras who are in a pitiable state. The state won`t help them because they are brahmins. Many of them would probably be wishing they were born in a low caste. The affirmative action in Tamil Nadu is peculiar in that it is directed against minority (brahmins form about 2 - 5% of the total population of that state)whereas in USA it is meant for the minority. More than 25 years of rule by the government that represents the interest of the lower castes in that state(DMK and ADMK)has not resulted in abolishing the caste system in that state.
I think caste system can never be abolished in India since it exists in the minds of the people. However,through legislation and other means,we can make sure that one caste does not enjoy more previleges than the other.
rsridhar
Hi folks,
I am reading a lot of stuff on caste system in this forum,so i thought i will say my bit.
Caste System or ``varnas`` as they were called in the vedic period were based strictly on vocation. Except for the lowermost caste (called Dalits today)rest were free to change their vocation. The writer of Mahabarata, sage Vyasa, was born to a fisherwoman. He is considered foremost among the sages in ancient India. He was the one who gathered all the 4 Vedas which lay scattered all over Bharat and compiled them into one.The writer of the other great epic Ramayana,Valmiki, was born in a low caste also. Both, because of their scholarship, were considered brahmins. Brahmin in those times simply meant ``the knower of Brahman or God``. These were pious people who spent most of their time in reading and teaching students. They had no power but commanded a lot of respect. The kings of those times sent their sons to these men for education.
I believe it was much later that the system became hierarchial (spelling?). Brahmins came to acquire some previleges that they steadily held on to. The easy mobility between the castes early on disappeared.
Caste system as it exists today is a curse. While affirmative action has helped a number of people from the underprevileged class,it has not removed the barriers of caste system. A person from lower caste who has made it good continues to hold on to his caste.
It is wrong to think that everyone from high caste in India is well off. I personally know a number of poor brahmins in Madras who are in a pitiable state. The state won`t help them because they are brahmins. Many of them would probably be wishing they were born in a low caste. The affirmative action in Tamil Nadu is peculiar in that it is directed against minority (brahmins form about 2 - 5% of the total population of that state)whereas in USA it is meant for the minority. More than 25 years of rule by the government that represents the interest of the lower castes in that state(DMK and ADMK)has not resulted in abolishing the caste system in that state.
I think caste system can never be abolished in India since it exists in the minds of the people. However,through legislation and other means,we can make sure that one caste does not enjoy more previleges than the other.
rsridhar
#386 Posted by krashid on February 13, 2001 4:04:17 am
RSaxena# 378
You asked me ``Are cousin marriages common in my clan``
That I don`t know, but whatever is transmitted to us written or verbally says to be away from RSaxena.
Badbu Aati Hai.
You asked me ``Are cousin marriages common in my clan``
That I don`t know, but whatever is transmitted to us written or verbally says to be away from RSaxena.
Badbu Aati Hai.
#385 Posted by krashid on February 13, 2001 4:04:17 am
Harimau #373
I am with you even on this.
There was no cast barrier in Mela.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on my previous post. And I agree with you now again.
In fact I am with you in all your deeds which are tarnishing the image of India.
Like Protest of christian is very bad, I will go with you to burn their churches and kill those Indian who still believe in Foreign ideology.
Like Muslims living in slums and not coming out of ignorance and have a soft corner for Pakistan. I will be with you to threaten them to change their Anti India policy.
And yes Mela. Did I say there was caste system in Mela. You are boss. THERE WAS NO CAST SYSTEM IN MELA.
And like that pious Salim you will find me also at your sides.
I am with you even on this.
There was no cast barrier in Mela.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on my previous post. And I agree with you now again.
In fact I am with you in all your deeds which are tarnishing the image of India.
Like Protest of christian is very bad, I will go with you to burn their churches and kill those Indian who still believe in Foreign ideology.
Like Muslims living in slums and not coming out of ignorance and have a soft corner for Pakistan. I will be with you to threaten them to change their Anti India policy.
And yes Mela. Did I say there was caste system in Mela. You are boss. THERE WAS NO CAST SYSTEM IN MELA.
And like that pious Salim you will find me also at your sides.
#384 Posted by krashid on February 13, 2001 4:04:17 am
Harimau #384
Bhai Kis Ke Chakkar Mein Aa Gaye.
Bohat Marte Hain phir Gaar Dete Hain.
Is to Sharafat Ki Zaban Mein Kabah Mein Dafan Karna Kahte Hain.
Warna Kabah Mein Ghair Muslim Zinda ya Murda Ka Kia Kaam.
Bhai Kis Ke Chakkar Mein Aa Gaye.
Bohat Marte Hain phir Gaar Dete Hain.
Is to Sharafat Ki Zaban Mein Kabah Mein Dafan Karna Kahte Hain.
Warna Kabah Mein Ghair Muslim Zinda ya Murda Ka Kia Kaam.
#383 Posted by farangi_kush on February 12, 2001 9:49:23 pm
mcGupta:#371
Thank you for your reference material.
There is already a wealth of material available in urdu and maybe hindi too.
In the entire BBB(sheep) education system a very diabolical method is employed by the csp?IAS types AND by the missionary schools to cover all this up.
Actually I do not fault these jahils from this education system because I myself was one of them(Having attended those ``prestigious`` ones AND became the jahil of the kind who thought himself to be much above those who knew much more than I did)
There is so much detailed stuff available that the entire definition of ``holocaust`` would have to either re-entered in the dictionary or some new word coined.
Not only India but throughout the civilised world,wherever these thugs have gone,they have left their evil markings.
As recent as 20 years ago,Hunting aborginines was one the great favorite `sport` of the Australians.
Americans,Canadians,& British,under cover of science,are still carrying out heinous crimes against blacks & othe `inferior` races.Once in a while some news trickles out.
Nothing is forgotten.Our people are marking time and once they acquire sufficient werewithal these stories WILL be told.
Those who did not benefit from the evil education system or had the fore-sight to seek real learning have retained this knowledge.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
Thank you for your reference material.
There is already a wealth of material available in urdu and maybe hindi too.
In the entire BBB(sheep) education system a very diabolical method is employed by the csp?IAS types AND by the missionary schools to cover all this up.
Actually I do not fault these jahils from this education system because I myself was one of them(Having attended those ``prestigious`` ones AND became the jahil of the kind who thought himself to be much above those who knew much more than I did)
There is so much detailed stuff available that the entire definition of ``holocaust`` would have to either re-entered in the dictionary or some new word coined.
Not only India but throughout the civilised world,wherever these thugs have gone,they have left their evil markings.
As recent as 20 years ago,Hunting aborginines was one the great favorite `sport` of the Australians.
Americans,Canadians,& British,under cover of science,are still carrying out heinous crimes against blacks & othe `inferior` races.Once in a while some news trickles out.
Nothing is forgotten.Our people are marking time and once they acquire sufficient werewithal these stories WILL be told.
Those who did not benefit from the evil education system or had the fore-sight to seek real learning have retained this knowledge.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
#382 Posted by harimau on February 12, 2001 9:49:23 pm
Ref FARANGI_KUSH #: 369
[If the Brahmin dies while steadfastly worshipping in the temple,then he deserves a burial in kaabaa.]
If such sentiments could truly be translated into reality, I personally would not have a problem living in an avowedly Islamic society.
[If the Brahmin dies while steadfastly worshipping in the temple,then he deserves a burial in kaabaa.]
If such sentiments could truly be translated into reality, I personally would not have a problem living in an avowedly Islamic society.
#381 Posted by harimau on February 12, 2001 9:49:23 pm
Ref RSaxena #: 380
[Wow, your insight is blinding. I don`t think anyone would have known all that had you not so cleverly informed us.]
Go easy on the shrink, yaar. You shouldn`t attempt deflate his swollen head that quickly. The single cell inhabiting his cranium might get blown out.
[Wow, your insight is blinding. I don`t think anyone would have known all that had you not so cleverly informed us.]
Go easy on the shrink, yaar. You shouldn`t attempt deflate his swollen head that quickly. The single cell inhabiting his cranium might get blown out.
#380 Posted by harimau on February 12, 2001 9:49:23 pm
Ref Dionysus #: 375
[What are we going to do about your raping, murdering and torturing army`s threat to our freedom and its occupation of Kashmir??]
You mean Bangladesh, not Kashmir, don`t you?
Or, is it okay for Islamist thugs to rape and kill Muslims because they happen to be of different ethnicity?
Has it occurred to you that some of the Indian Army soldiers whom you accuse of raping Kashmiri women might be Nagas, Tamils, Sikhs, Mizos, Sikkimese and a whole lot of other minorities with whom you Pakistanis have expressed great solidarity?
Dionysus, say with pride, ``I am a Pakistani, known world-wide for terrorism, smuggling, drugs, and killing innocent people.``
[What are we going to do about your raping, murdering and torturing army`s threat to our freedom and its occupation of Kashmir??]
You mean Bangladesh, not Kashmir, don`t you?
Or, is it okay for Islamist thugs to rape and kill Muslims because they happen to be of different ethnicity?
Has it occurred to you that some of the Indian Army soldiers whom you accuse of raping Kashmiri women might be Nagas, Tamils, Sikhs, Mizos, Sikkimese and a whole lot of other minorities with whom you Pakistanis have expressed great solidarity?
Dionysus, say with pride, ``I am a Pakistani, known world-wide for terrorism, smuggling, drugs, and killing innocent people.``
#379 Posted by farangi_kush on February 12, 2001 9:49:23 pm
sateesh:#376
You are so good at quoting the shair:
Thank you.
From the same ghazal:
``Yarab na voh samjhain hain,naa samjhain gey miri baat
Dey aur dil unkO jo naa dey mujhH ko zubaaN aur``
------
Ghalib & the farangies:
How can Ghalib be accused of being anti-farangi.The guy was the greatest beneficiary of their favours and post-1857 still looked upon with deep suspicion.
His uncle,the Governor of Agra & the Chief Commander of the Marhattha army ended the siege of agra fort by simply handing over the keys to Lord Lake and in return was awarded the jageers.These jageers were to later result in the deadly family feud which culminated in the murder of Frazer,the Resident-General of Delhi.
Ghalibs` misfortunes began from then on because his cousin was the killer & the whole family was suspect.Delhi was haunted for many days & the entire city was punished for this crime.The city was brought to starvation & famine conditions.
Ghalib had many friends at the clubs & residency.His letters to major John Jacob are a delightful read into his life & times.
At the same time Ghalib was perhaps the first Indian who heard & saw the page of history turning and recorded these fore-telling observations occasionaly.
.......
I just want to stop here,I hope I`ve made the point.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam
You are so good at quoting the shair:
Thank you.
From the same ghazal:
``Yarab na voh samjhain hain,naa samjhain gey miri baat
Dey aur dil unkO jo naa dey mujhH ko zubaaN aur``
------
Ghalib & the farangies:
How can Ghalib be accused of being anti-farangi.The guy was the greatest beneficiary of their favours and post-1857 still looked upon with deep suspicion.
His uncle,the Governor of Agra & the Chief Commander of the Marhattha army ended the siege of agra fort by simply handing over the keys to Lord Lake and in return was awarded the jageers.These jageers were to later result in the deadly family feud which culminated in the murder of Frazer,the Resident-General of Delhi.
Ghalibs` misfortunes began from then on because his cousin was the killer & the whole family was suspect.Delhi was haunted for many days & the entire city was punished for this crime.The city was brought to starvation & famine conditions.
Ghalib had many friends at the clubs & residency.His letters to major John Jacob are a delightful read into his life & times.
At the same time Ghalib was perhaps the first Indian who heard & saw the page of history turning and recorded these fore-telling observations occasionaly.
.......
I just want to stop here,I hope I`ve made the point.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam
#378 Posted by rsaxena on February 12, 2001 1:42:35 pm
Re: shankar #363
Wow, your insight is blinding. I don`t think anyone would have known all that had you not so cleverly informed us.
Wow, your insight is blinding. I don`t think anyone would have known all that had you not so cleverly informed us.
#377 Posted by sadna on February 12, 2001 12:25:58 pm
Dionysus #375
And I been told so often on chowk that the ISI`s activities in India are a figment of Indian propaganda machine`s vivid imagination, sigh.
And I been told so often on chowk that the ISI`s activities in India are a figment of Indian propaganda machine`s vivid imagination, sigh.
#376 Posted by rsaxena on February 12, 2001 12:03:57 pm
Krashid,
Are cousin-marriages common in your klan?
Are cousin-marriages common in your klan?
#375 Posted by rsaxena on February 12, 2001 12:03:57 pm
RE: harimau #373
Please don`t bother Mullah Krashid to take time away from his grammar classes and Mujahideen training to read anything that challenges his under-developed mind.
Please don`t bother Mullah Krashid to take time away from his grammar classes and Mujahideen training to read anything that challenges his under-developed mind.
#374 Posted by satish on February 12, 2001 12:03:57 pm
Re:F_K
You are probably right, shayad mai mauzood nahi tha, ya shayad maine ye samjha ke
Hai bas ke har-ek unke ishare me nishan aur
Karte hain muhabbat to gujarta hai guman aur ...
Though I have been interacting off/on on this site for some time, I didnot bring Ghalib in so far because we usually talk about things Ghalib wouldn`t have liked ...
Like your anti-farangi rhetoric though... :-)
You are probably right, shayad mai mauzood nahi tha, ya shayad maine ye samjha ke
Hai bas ke har-ek unke ishare me nishan aur
Karte hain muhabbat to gujarta hai guman aur ...
Though I have been interacting off/on on this site for some time, I didnot bring Ghalib in so far because we usually talk about things Ghalib wouldn`t have liked ...
Like your anti-farangi rhetoric though... :-)
#373 Posted by dionysus on February 12, 2001 12:03:57 pm
sadna #368
What are we going to do about your raping, murdering and torturing army`s threat to our freedom and its occupation of Kashmir?? Da ya really hafta ask?? If you do, please write to the following address for information:
ISI@we`re-gonna-screw-India-up-the-ass.org.pk
What are we going to do about your raping, murdering and torturing army`s threat to our freedom and its occupation of Kashmir?? Da ya really hafta ask?? If you do, please write to the following address for information:
ISI@we`re-gonna-screw-India-up-the-ass.org.pk
#372 Posted by dionysus on February 12, 2001 12:03:57 pm
Harimanu #359
Do the Americans know India better than the Indians???
And oh yes, don`t forget: ``Garv say kaho hum Bharati hain!``
Concocting enemies
The list of ??anti-national activities?? in this country gets longer. A
new addition has come to light in the rubble of Kutch thanks to Nalin
Bhat. He is a senior Bharatiya Janata Party leader and it is a wonder
how even in the midst of death and catastrophe, and with his heavy
responsibilities as chairman of the state electricity board, he manages
to keep a sharp eye open for ??anti-national?? mischief. But he does
and the method he uses is, unfortunately, quite common. The easy way to
spot trouble is to start with the preconceived notion that anything the
minorities do is suspicious. So Bhat decides it is ??anti-national??
for a journalist to report and, by implication, for a minority group to
protest about unfair treatment in relief operations. It does not matter
that the report is accurate and can help remedy possible shortcomings
in relief operations by bringing them to wider notice. The mere writing
of such a report offends Bhat and he takes action. He prevents the
journalist, an Indian Expresscorrespondent, from filing any copy from
the Bhuj media centre and he tries to justify this egregious act of
censorship later on by saying Kutch is a sensitive border district.
If only Gujarat?s political leaders were more sensitive to real social
problems instead of concocting enemies. Someone should ask Nalin Bhat
what he thinks of caste segregation and prejudice in the Kutch town of
Adhoi also reported in this paper. For all the heightened concern that
he and others express for the nation, they have not been heard to
condemn caste practices such as those observed among the quake affected
in Adhoi. Those who perpetuate caste differences and discriminate
between people on grounds of caste or religion do terrible harm to the
social fabric of this country. It is deplorable that separate kitchens
have to be set up for Dalits, Patels and Brahmins and that Dalits have
to sleep in the cold in the open because the upper castes object to
sharing tented space with them and, being powerful, get the first
choice of tents.
Social prejudices are not going to disappear even in the midst of
common suffering. Therefore, the Gujarat government should take special
steps to ensure that there is no discrimination, no double standards,
no false priorities in the relief operations. Money and material have
been pouring into the state from official and private sources,
corporates, individuals and charities. Many donors will monitor the use
of their funds directly. Many others are not in a position to do so.
Taxpayers must be assured that funds will be efficiently and fairly
spent. It is essential for the government to prepare a rehabilitation
policy and to make it public as soon as possible. This has been found a
necessary and useful practice in other areas of major disasters such as
Latur in Maharashtra. A declared policy will help in the coordination
of relief work and of the rehabilitation plans of the public and
private sector. The people of Gujarat ought to know exactly what the
government is doing today and planning to do tomorrow.
Copyright © 2001 Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd.
Do the Americans know India better than the Indians???
And oh yes, don`t forget: ``Garv say kaho hum Bharati hain!``
Concocting enemies
The list of ??anti-national activities?? in this country gets longer. A
new addition has come to light in the rubble of Kutch thanks to Nalin
Bhat. He is a senior Bharatiya Janata Party leader and it is a wonder
how even in the midst of death and catastrophe, and with his heavy
responsibilities as chairman of the state electricity board, he manages
to keep a sharp eye open for ??anti-national?? mischief. But he does
and the method he uses is, unfortunately, quite common. The easy way to
spot trouble is to start with the preconceived notion that anything the
minorities do is suspicious. So Bhat decides it is ??anti-national??
for a journalist to report and, by implication, for a minority group to
protest about unfair treatment in relief operations. It does not matter
that the report is accurate and can help remedy possible shortcomings
in relief operations by bringing them to wider notice. The mere writing
of such a report offends Bhat and he takes action. He prevents the
journalist, an Indian Expresscorrespondent, from filing any copy from
the Bhuj media centre and he tries to justify this egregious act of
censorship later on by saying Kutch is a sensitive border district.
If only Gujarat?s political leaders were more sensitive to real social
problems instead of concocting enemies. Someone should ask Nalin Bhat
what he thinks of caste segregation and prejudice in the Kutch town of
Adhoi also reported in this paper. For all the heightened concern that
he and others express for the nation, they have not been heard to
condemn caste practices such as those observed among the quake affected
in Adhoi. Those who perpetuate caste differences and discriminate
between people on grounds of caste or religion do terrible harm to the
social fabric of this country. It is deplorable that separate kitchens
have to be set up for Dalits, Patels and Brahmins and that Dalits have
to sleep in the cold in the open because the upper castes object to
sharing tented space with them and, being powerful, get the first
choice of tents.
Social prejudices are not going to disappear even in the midst of
common suffering. Therefore, the Gujarat government should take special
steps to ensure that there is no discrimination, no double standards,
no false priorities in the relief operations. Money and material have
been pouring into the state from official and private sources,
corporates, individuals and charities. Many donors will monitor the use
of their funds directly. Many others are not in a position to do so.
Taxpayers must be assured that funds will be efficiently and fairly
spent. It is essential for the government to prepare a rehabilitation
policy and to make it public as soon as possible. This has been found a
necessary and useful practice in other areas of major disasters such as
Latur in Maharashtra. A declared policy will help in the coordination
of relief work and of the rehabilitation plans of the public and
private sector. The people of Gujarat ought to know exactly what the
government is doing today and planning to do tomorrow.
Copyright © 2001 Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd.
#371 Posted by harimau on February 12, 2001 2:59:38 am
Ref krashid #: 361
---- Begin Quote -----
Harimau #359
Hell with propangadist.
You are right brother.
You know and NYT knows even more about India.
.........
There were no seperate tents of different caste in India. That was for logistics reasons and does in no way reflect any caste bias.
----- End Quote --------
I suggest you go to www.channel4.com/kumbhmela/ and click on the icon for `Archives`.
Check the video for Tuesday, Jan 9.
Listen to Salim who has come to the Kumbh Mela, has bathed in the river, plans to spend two more weeks there and bathe in the Ganges several more times.
Then you can stay happy that Islam is out of danger in Pakistan.
Please do not read anything else about the Mela or watch any other video clips. They would tell you how the loftiest rich man is seated next to the poorest during the meal service.
It might shatter your belief about the strength of the caste system in India.
You wouldn`t want to be disillusioned, would you?
Your poor brain might not be able to cope with the fact a Muslim named Salim is attending the Mela.
It would definitely burst when you hear that there is no caste barrier at the Mela.
---- Begin Quote -----
Harimau #359
Hell with propangadist.
You are right brother.
You know and NYT knows even more about India.
.........
There were no seperate tents of different caste in India. That was for logistics reasons and does in no way reflect any caste bias.
----- End Quote --------
I suggest you go to www.channel4.com/kumbhmela/ and click on the icon for `Archives`.
Check the video for Tuesday, Jan 9.
Listen to Salim who has come to the Kumbh Mela, has bathed in the river, plans to spend two more weeks there and bathe in the Ganges several more times.
Then you can stay happy that Islam is out of danger in Pakistan.
Please do not read anything else about the Mela or watch any other video clips. They would tell you how the loftiest rich man is seated next to the poorest during the meal service.
It might shatter your belief about the strength of the caste system in India.
You wouldn`t want to be disillusioned, would you?
Your poor brain might not be able to cope with the fact a Muslim named Salim is attending the Mela.
It would definitely burst when you hear that there is no caste barrier at the Mela.
#370 Posted by krashid on February 12, 2001 2:59:38 am
Shankar #363
I am fearful of the nuclear holocaust in this region myself.
Is there any chances to avert it?
I am fearful of the nuclear holocaust in this region myself.
Is there any chances to avert it?
#369 Posted by macgupta on February 12, 2001 2:59:38 am
A S. Bhattacharya posted this on the Indictraditions list.
-Arun Gupta
I just came across an article called Ghosts in the Dust of Gujarat in The Observer (a British) Sunday newspaper today by a Mike Davis whose new book ``Late Victorian Holocausts: El Nino, Famines and the Making of the Third World (Publ. Verso)`` is also reviewed in today`s paper.
In the article, Davis discussed the massive death toll caused by drought, famine and disease in Gujarat in 1901. He noted that the Mughals and Marathas had zealously policed the grain trade in the public interest, distributing free food, fixing prices and embargoing exports. A British writer was horrified that these ``Oriental Despots`` occasionally amputated equivalent amounts of flesh from traders who short-changed peasants during famines.
The British on the other hand, says Davis, worshipped the savage god ``Invisible Hand`` (a term I also refer to as a new god) and Curzon allowed the food surpluses in Eastern India to be exported to England or hoarded by speculators in heavily guarded depots (this is just like the 1770 and 1942-3 Bengal Famines, in the latter the surpluses from elsewhere were not shipped to Bengal and Bengal`s food was exported). Davis points out that Curzon, whose appetite for viceregal pomp was legendary, lectured starving villagers on endangering India`s financial position in the interests of prodigal philanthropy and referred to such alms-giving as a ``public crime``!
Davis states Despite Kiplinguesque myths of heroic benevolence, official attitudes were nonchalant. British officials rated Indian ethnicities like cattle, and vented contempt against them even when they were dying in their multitudes.`` In 1901, the Lancet estimated that 19 million had died in India during the previous decade from starvation and hunger-related disease.
Davis notes the important point that the railroads, ports and canals (which the British boast they gave to India) were used for resource extraction and not indigenous development. Later he notes, ``Not surprisingly, there was no increase in India`s per capita income during the whole period of British overlordship from 1757-1947. Celebrated cash-crop booms went hand in hand with declining agrarian production and food security.....throughout that `glorious imperial half century` from 1871-1921 immortalised by Kipling, the life expectancy of ordinary Indians fell by a staggering 20 per cent.``
Martin Bright, The Observer`s revier of Davis` book concludes his review with the statement ``Late Victorian Holocausts will redefine the way we think about the European colonial project. After reading this, I defy even the most ardent nationalist to feel proud of so-called `achievements of empire`.
It is time that Indian scholars compiled an authoritative study of the Raj-created or Raj-exacerbated famines and made this sort of knowledge of such holocausts widely available. The Bengal famine of 1942-3 is still hardly ever mentioned here in the UK.
-Arun Gupta
I just came across an article called Ghosts in the Dust of Gujarat in The Observer (a British) Sunday newspaper today by a Mike Davis whose new book ``Late Victorian Holocausts: El Nino, Famines and the Making of the Third World (Publ. Verso)`` is also reviewed in today`s paper.
In the article, Davis discussed the massive death toll caused by drought, famine and disease in Gujarat in 1901. He noted that the Mughals and Marathas had zealously policed the grain trade in the public interest, distributing free food, fixing prices and embargoing exports. A British writer was horrified that these ``Oriental Despots`` occasionally amputated equivalent amounts of flesh from traders who short-changed peasants during famines.
The British on the other hand, says Davis, worshipped the savage god ``Invisible Hand`` (a term I also refer to as a new god) and Curzon allowed the food surpluses in Eastern India to be exported to England or hoarded by speculators in heavily guarded depots (this is just like the 1770 and 1942-3 Bengal Famines, in the latter the surpluses from elsewhere were not shipped to Bengal and Bengal`s food was exported). Davis points out that Curzon, whose appetite for viceregal pomp was legendary, lectured starving villagers on endangering India`s financial position in the interests of prodigal philanthropy and referred to such alms-giving as a ``public crime``!
Davis states Despite Kiplinguesque myths of heroic benevolence, official attitudes were nonchalant. British officials rated Indian ethnicities like cattle, and vented contempt against them even when they were dying in their multitudes.`` In 1901, the Lancet estimated that 19 million had died in India during the previous decade from starvation and hunger-related disease.
Davis notes the important point that the railroads, ports and canals (which the British boast they gave to India) were used for resource extraction and not indigenous development. Later he notes, ``Not surprisingly, there was no increase in India`s per capita income during the whole period of British overlordship from 1757-1947. Celebrated cash-crop booms went hand in hand with declining agrarian production and food security.....throughout that `glorious imperial half century` from 1871-1921 immortalised by Kipling, the life expectancy of ordinary Indians fell by a staggering 20 per cent.``
Martin Bright, The Observer`s revier of Davis` book concludes his review with the statement ``Late Victorian Holocausts will redefine the way we think about the European colonial project. After reading this, I defy even the most ardent nationalist to feel proud of so-called `achievements of empire`.
It is time that Indian scholars compiled an authoritative study of the Raj-created or Raj-exacerbated famines and made this sort of knowledge of such holocausts widely available. The Bengal famine of 1942-3 is still hardly ever mentioned here in the UK.
#368 Posted by krashid on February 12, 2001 2:59:38 am
Shankar #363
The revolution in Iran was not a Islamic revolution. It was a Nationalistic revolution hijacked ultimately by Khomeini.
Most of the oil wealth of Iran was going to West directly or indirectly with the help of their cronies at the helm of power in Iran in the form of Shah.
After the revolution a war was put on Iran for 8 years to destroy it. But it was unsuccessful.
The wealth of Iran with the isolation it faces is directly invested in infrastructure building and education.
Iran which was dependent on foreigners skills even for basic needs like Doctors or Engineers is now producing a good breed of doctors. The first heart transplant was done in 1990 or so by all Iranian doctors team.
(The justification of cruelty on opposition is by no means intended)
The revolution in Iran was not a Islamic revolution. It was a Nationalistic revolution hijacked ultimately by Khomeini.
Most of the oil wealth of Iran was going to West directly or indirectly with the help of their cronies at the helm of power in Iran in the form of Shah.
After the revolution a war was put on Iran for 8 years to destroy it. But it was unsuccessful.
The wealth of Iran with the isolation it faces is directly invested in infrastructure building and education.
Iran which was dependent on foreigners skills even for basic needs like Doctors or Engineers is now producing a good breed of doctors. The first heart transplant was done in 1990 or so by all Iranian doctors team.
(The justification of cruelty on opposition is by no means intended)
#367 Posted by farangi_kush on February 11, 2001 9:57:46 pm
sateesh:
Janaab yeh daur aap tuk kayee murtabaa ayaa hai aur humm nai bohut mohabbat sey paish kya hai.Shayyad uss vaqt aap maujood naheen thhay.
``Agar naa thaa toO shareek e mehfil,qusoor teraa thha yaa kay maira?
miraa tareequaa naheeN key rakhoon,kissi kee khatir maye shabaana``
tr:if you were not at the party last night,was it you or I who is at fault?
It is not in my creed to present the overnight left-overs to those whoo never showed up;)
__________________________________________________
I really enjoyed & appreciated your apt quoting of Ghalib.
How about ``Quasid key jaattay---`` as my reply from the same ghazal.
__________________________________________________
Mcgupta:Yes there are definitely always the proverbial exceptions.They are many many more of them in India than in Pakistan.Was I really impressed by that lady who made the world Bank and IMF take a hasty retreat in the Narbada(Sardar Swarar Dam) incident.I also applaud the Superintendent of police who was despatched to quell & crush these ``uneducated`` ones and protect the gora/kalloo `educated` sahibs,and who resigned on-the-spot and joined the protest.I am very sad to admit that such kinds are called stupid in my supposedly Islamic Pakistan.
Mr.Bajpai & many others in India are NOT Ba Ba Blacksheep.From Ayub onwards Pakistan has been in the grip of these elitist so-called educated class and what is their performance?Fornication,drunkardness,bribes,money-mentia,uncultured/unrefinedness,licking the western boots but NEVER ad nauseum,giving lip-service to Islam.
People who define their boundaries & limit their options and ANNOUNCE them loud & clear rather than through eupheisms can always be trusted.Who does not have a grudging respect for a committed communist,kaffir or atheist.Faiz Ahmad Faiz and Maulaana Maudoodi had tremendous respect and affection for each other.When both were in the Jail cell(for treason)they wrote about their meetings in pleasant recalls.Maulana maudoodi has eulogised his rendevouz with him in fond terms.
``Marray butkhaanay mein,to kaabay mein garho brahman ko``
tr:If the Brahmin dies while steadfastly worshipping in the temple,then he deserves a burial in kaabaa.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam
Janaab yeh daur aap tuk kayee murtabaa ayaa hai aur humm nai bohut mohabbat sey paish kya hai.Shayyad uss vaqt aap maujood naheen thhay.
``Agar naa thaa toO shareek e mehfil,qusoor teraa thha yaa kay maira?
miraa tareequaa naheeN key rakhoon,kissi kee khatir maye shabaana``
tr:if you were not at the party last night,was it you or I who is at fault?
It is not in my creed to present the overnight left-overs to those whoo never showed up;)
__________________________________________________
I really enjoyed & appreciated your apt quoting of Ghalib.
How about ``Quasid key jaattay---`` as my reply from the same ghazal.
__________________________________________________
Mcgupta:Yes there are definitely always the proverbial exceptions.They are many many more of them in India than in Pakistan.Was I really impressed by that lady who made the world Bank and IMF take a hasty retreat in the Narbada(Sardar Swarar Dam) incident.I also applaud the Superintendent of police who was despatched to quell & crush these ``uneducated`` ones and protect the gora/kalloo `educated` sahibs,and who resigned on-the-spot and joined the protest.I am very sad to admit that such kinds are called stupid in my supposedly Islamic Pakistan.
Mr.Bajpai & many others in India are NOT Ba Ba Blacksheep.From Ayub onwards Pakistan has been in the grip of these elitist so-called educated class and what is their performance?Fornication,drunkardness,bribes,money-mentia,uncultured/unrefinedness,licking the western boots but NEVER ad nauseum,giving lip-service to Islam.
People who define their boundaries & limit their options and ANNOUNCE them loud & clear rather than through eupheisms can always be trusted.Who does not have a grudging respect for a committed communist,kaffir or atheist.Faiz Ahmad Faiz and Maulaana Maudoodi had tremendous respect and affection for each other.When both were in the Jail cell(for treason)they wrote about their meetings in pleasant recalls.Maulana maudoodi has eulogised his rendevouz with him in fond terms.
``Marray butkhaanay mein,to kaabay mein garho brahman ko``
tr:If the Brahmin dies while steadfastly worshipping in the temple,then he deserves a burial in kaabaa.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam
#366 Posted by sadna on February 11, 2001 9:50:23 pm
Dionysus #364
Re shame or pride of any Indian community, my point is, don`t fool yourself anyone mistakes your `concern` for any real empathy. Further if you donot even bother to keep yourselves properly informed on whats what where caste relations are concerned, then its even less convincing.
Re the BLESSED divide, it can remain as it is, no more redrawing boundaries for religion as far as Indians are concerned, we`ve seen enough of that meaningless senseless BS. Anyway, what are you going to do about it?
Sadhana
Re shame or pride of any Indian community, my point is, don`t fool yourself anyone mistakes your `concern` for any real empathy. Further if you donot even bother to keep yourselves properly informed on whats what where caste relations are concerned, then its even less convincing.
Re the BLESSED divide, it can remain as it is, no more redrawing boundaries for religion as far as Indians are concerned, we`ve seen enough of that meaningless senseless BS. Anyway, what are you going to do about it?
Sadhana
#365 Posted by macgupta on February 11, 2001 6:00:34 pm
In reply to krashid :
There is no denying the many problems Indians face; but it is all a matter of attitude. Some people see the glass as half-empty. These days, I believe most Indians see the glass as half-full.
Perhaps it is just that they don`t want you to dash their illusions. Or maybe it is something else. But if you address Indians as a people with a glass half-full rather than half-empty, you might get a friendlier response.
-Arun Gupta
#364 Posted by macgupta on February 11, 2001 6:00:34 pm
To Farangi_Kush, who wrote :
Ever wonder why no ba ba blacksheep NGO cannot work without walking/talking as if they do not belong to the soil & has no relatives among the `backward` people.The fad is to look & talk as much different from the people you are trying to serve.The idea is to change the `uneducated` rather than learn from them.No researcher acknowledges in their referece material what they learned from these `locals` lest there be aspersions cast about `educatedness`.
-- no doubt there are plenty of these. But there are the other kind as well. Seek and thou shalt be surprised !
-Arun Gupta
#363 Posted by satish on February 11, 2001 6:00:34 pm
Re: F_K and Hindus
Mujh tak kab unki bazm me aata tha daur-e-jaam
Saqi ne kuchh mila na diya ho sharab me ...
;-)
Mujh tak kab unki bazm me aata tha daur-e-jaam
Saqi ne kuchh mila na diya ho sharab me ...
;-)
#362 Posted by dionysus on February 11, 2001 6:00:34 pm
sadna #355
Where did I say that the supposed low-castes should be ashamed??? Why do you make things up? Are you nuts or do you just like getting on your high horse? Perhaps a bit of both?
BTW, let`s make that BLESSED divide even more BLESSED by redrawing it around the Kashmir Valley and re-enforcing it with 100 metre high titatanium walls. Whaddya say?
Where did I say that the supposed low-castes should be ashamed??? Why do you make things up? Are you nuts or do you just like getting on your high horse? Perhaps a bit of both?
BTW, let`s make that BLESSED divide even more BLESSED by redrawing it around the Kashmir Valley and re-enforcing it with 100 metre high titatanium walls. Whaddya say?
#361 Posted by shankar on February 11, 2001 6:00:34 pm
KRashid,
{{I would recommend you to read some current facts about Iran, before writing something (probably you are influenced by propaganda)}}
I am the first one to admit that I`m no expert in these matters. Of course I`m influenced by American propaganda! I will believe a reputable US paper over any desi newspaper. EVERY country puts a ``spin`` on the news to fit their values, the US media is made up of a lot of Americans who love their country just as much as ``civilians``--they are as human as anyone in the world. Its virtually impossible for human beings to have a totally open mind. EVERYBODY has biases; including judges in the Supreme Court.
However, US media is the first one to slam its own country`s wrongs before any other countries. The media`s role in Watergate & Vietnam made the US question their values & the ``dominant discourse``, as Bilalji puts it. It was the US media that primarily won the war for North Vietnam. Which other country`s media has played such a profound role to change its own country from within.
Now, coming to Iran, the following is my PERCEPTION. I`m quite sure your perception is different & probably closer to the truth. You`ve had the advantage of working there.
If Iran did`nt have oil, economically, they would be screwed today. Islamic fundamental govts, did not progress as well as the Asian tigers--eventhough they had easy wealth at their disposal. Very few have invested wisely (at least, thats my perception). Eventhough the tigers are currently wounded; its a matter of time they`ll get up and start running again. Some of them are already running.
If Iran didnt have oil, my belief is they would be third rate country like Yemen, Sudan or Afghanistan. (chicken s *it countries that have destroyed their people by their own petty rivalries & civil wars). The golden Age of Persia has come & gone & I dont think it will ever be back.
No doubt their citizens today are spiritually richer in Islam because thats the fundamental plan of the govt. However, there is more to living in this world than just Islam. (To anybody who felt insulted by that statement, I apologise. I believe I have great respect for your religion).
This point pertains much to Indo-Pak. Since both countries have nuclear weapons & I dont think the underlying hatred will ever die away (at least not in another 53.5 years), the very nature of ``war`` will change between them . India & Pakistan will wage war with each other on the battlefield of ``influence with the superpowers``, education, industry , technology & economics. If Pakistan becomes the West rejecting, ``go back to & live the way we did 1400 yrs ago``, in short, F_K`s utopia--India will win those wars hands down.
My only prayer is that the idiots in India dont follow Pakistan`s example a become hindu fundamentalist nation. Then its 100% all out nuclear war between the two nations. In either scenario, Pakistan is screwed.
{{I would recommend you to read some current facts about Iran, before writing something (probably you are influenced by propaganda)}}
I am the first one to admit that I`m no expert in these matters. Of course I`m influenced by American propaganda! I will believe a reputable US paper over any desi newspaper. EVERY country puts a ``spin`` on the news to fit their values, the US media is made up of a lot of Americans who love their country just as much as ``civilians``--they are as human as anyone in the world. Its virtually impossible for human beings to have a totally open mind. EVERYBODY has biases; including judges in the Supreme Court.
However, US media is the first one to slam its own country`s wrongs before any other countries. The media`s role in Watergate & Vietnam made the US question their values & the ``dominant discourse``, as Bilalji puts it. It was the US media that primarily won the war for North Vietnam. Which other country`s media has played such a profound role to change its own country from within.
Now, coming to Iran, the following is my PERCEPTION. I`m quite sure your perception is different & probably closer to the truth. You`ve had the advantage of working there.
If Iran did`nt have oil, economically, they would be screwed today. Islamic fundamental govts, did not progress as well as the Asian tigers--eventhough they had easy wealth at their disposal. Very few have invested wisely (at least, thats my perception). Eventhough the tigers are currently wounded; its a matter of time they`ll get up and start running again. Some of them are already running.
If Iran didnt have oil, my belief is they would be third rate country like Yemen, Sudan or Afghanistan. (chicken s *it countries that have destroyed their people by their own petty rivalries & civil wars). The golden Age of Persia has come & gone & I dont think it will ever be back.
No doubt their citizens today are spiritually richer in Islam because thats the fundamental plan of the govt. However, there is more to living in this world than just Islam. (To anybody who felt insulted by that statement, I apologise. I believe I have great respect for your religion).
This point pertains much to Indo-Pak. Since both countries have nuclear weapons & I dont think the underlying hatred will ever die away (at least not in another 53.5 years), the very nature of ``war`` will change between them . India & Pakistan will wage war with each other on the battlefield of ``influence with the superpowers``, education, industry , technology & economics. If Pakistan becomes the West rejecting, ``go back to & live the way we did 1400 yrs ago``, in short, F_K`s utopia--India will win those wars hands down.
My only prayer is that the idiots in India dont follow Pakistan`s example a become hindu fundamentalist nation. Then its 100% all out nuclear war between the two nations. In either scenario, Pakistan is screwed.
#360 Posted by mohajir on February 11, 2001 6:00:34 pm
Watch the inspirational film on Earthquake
Click here to watch the inspirational film on Earthquake with soundtrack and
images.
http://www.klubq.com/earthquake/
Click here to watch the inspirational film on Earthquake with soundtrack and
images.
http://www.klubq.com/earthquake/
#359 Posted by krashid on February 10, 2001 10:07:01 pm
Harimau #359
Hell with propangadist.
You are right brother.
You know and NYT knows even more about India.
70,000+ death of Kashmiris is a propaganda of Pakistan and Islamist.
There is no seperation movement going on in Assam, Manipur or Kashmir.
There is no need for UN observers to see the situation in India, because they are biased against India.
There were no seperate tents of different caste in India. That was for logistics reasons and does in no way reflect any caste bias.
The killing of lower caste Hindus in Bihar was a propaganda stunt created by Lalooo Prasad.
Oh India where everybody sleeps under shelter. Oh India where no one goes hungry. Oh India where women have sex for fun and people bad mouth it as selling their body. Oh India where people are filled with humility and out of fear of Bhagwan walk half naked, eat nothing and have no shelter and loathe education.
Oh India of my dreams why do people say they are poor. They have kicked the wealth of world which is brimming from every corner, but they are just not interested.
Harimau! I am with you regarding killing of any person who bad mouth India in the great secular and democratic tradition. In fact Magna Carta and all BS is a propaganda stunt of West. India has been a bastion of democracy for eons as far as history goes save for a few hundred years of heathen Muslim rule, who introduced all the evils like caste, sati, dowry etc. First Shudr in whose ear lead was put for listening Koran was in Aurangzeb rule.
P.S: Any body questioning the historical facts should see Bajrang Dal and RSS. He will be taught in the most appropriate way the history.
Hell with propangadist.
You are right brother.
You know and NYT knows even more about India.
70,000+ death of Kashmiris is a propaganda of Pakistan and Islamist.
There is no seperation movement going on in Assam, Manipur or Kashmir.
There is no need for UN observers to see the situation in India, because they are biased against India.
There were no seperate tents of different caste in India. That was for logistics reasons and does in no way reflect any caste bias.
The killing of lower caste Hindus in Bihar was a propaganda stunt created by Lalooo Prasad.
Oh India where everybody sleeps under shelter. Oh India where no one goes hungry. Oh India where women have sex for fun and people bad mouth it as selling their body. Oh India where people are filled with humility and out of fear of Bhagwan walk half naked, eat nothing and have no shelter and loathe education.
Oh India of my dreams why do people say they are poor. They have kicked the wealth of world which is brimming from every corner, but they are just not interested.
Harimau! I am with you regarding killing of any person who bad mouth India in the great secular and democratic tradition. In fact Magna Carta and all BS is a propaganda stunt of West. India has been a bastion of democracy for eons as far as history goes save for a few hundred years of heathen Muslim rule, who introduced all the evils like caste, sati, dowry etc. First Shudr in whose ear lead was put for listening Koran was in Aurangzeb rule.
P.S: Any body questioning the historical facts should see Bajrang Dal and RSS. He will be taught in the most appropriate way the history.
#358 Posted by farangi_kush on February 10, 2001 9:55:44 pm
Shammi:#358
Harimau:#359
Thanks for the reprint.
Shammi,please substitute the word `simple-minded` for educated or learned in your intro.
This is the kind of stuff I am clamouring about here.Is it not high time that we start learning from THEM!
All the Indo-Paki `educated` kinds do is obtain phDs from BOOKS.Books,which were the result of direct learning acquired by the adventurous kind by giving up every possible material comfort.These are the real people who are soon forgotten by the cape & gown mujavirs,the job-position-seeking butterers of butts and toasters to theories.
Ever wonder why no ba ba blacksheep NGO cannot work without walking/talking as if they do not belong to the soil & has no relatives among the `backward` people.The fad is to look & talk as much different from the people you are trying to serve.The idea is to change the `uneducated` rather than learn from them.No researcher acknowledges in their referece material what they learned from these `locals` lest there be aspersions cast about `educatedness`.
Harimau:
I have always maintained that a true practising Hindu can get along very well with a true practising muslim and vice-versa.It is the secular/liberals,who shift with the shadows and lift with the light,who are the true curse in any part of the world.Except for the crusadesm & Karbala & maybe some others,there NEVER NEVER were religion based war in history of mankind.All wars were SECULAR(for money,material--that is the DICTIONARY meaning of secular--WORLDLY).It also sad & true that many times such wars were sanctioned by some clergy though NEVER initiated.
Before the arrival of the British thugs there were battles between the hindu-muslim-muslim-hindu-hindu rajas & kings BUT never hindu-muslim sectarianism.The 1000 years minus 150 years record is a testament to it.
Once those who are still suffering the trauma of colonialism come together(and which means almost all of non-european world)we can twist the tail of these thugs so well that they & their generations will regret the day they ventured out to loot & plunder the civilised worlds.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam
Harimau:#359
Thanks for the reprint.
Shammi,please substitute the word `simple-minded` for educated or learned in your intro.
This is the kind of stuff I am clamouring about here.Is it not high time that we start learning from THEM!
All the Indo-Paki `educated` kinds do is obtain phDs from BOOKS.Books,which were the result of direct learning acquired by the adventurous kind by giving up every possible material comfort.These are the real people who are soon forgotten by the cape & gown mujavirs,the job-position-seeking butterers of butts and toasters to theories.
Ever wonder why no ba ba blacksheep NGO cannot work without walking/talking as if they do not belong to the soil & has no relatives among the `backward` people.The fad is to look & talk as much different from the people you are trying to serve.The idea is to change the `uneducated` rather than learn from them.No researcher acknowledges in their referece material what they learned from these `locals` lest there be aspersions cast about `educatedness`.
Harimau:
I have always maintained that a true practising Hindu can get along very well with a true practising muslim and vice-versa.It is the secular/liberals,who shift with the shadows and lift with the light,who are the true curse in any part of the world.Except for the crusadesm & Karbala & maybe some others,there NEVER NEVER were religion based war in history of mankind.All wars were SECULAR(for money,material--that is the DICTIONARY meaning of secular--WORLDLY).It also sad & true that many times such wars were sanctioned by some clergy though NEVER initiated.
Before the arrival of the British thugs there were battles between the hindu-muslim-muslim-hindu-hindu rajas & kings BUT never hindu-muslim sectarianism.The 1000 years minus 150 years record is a testament to it.
Once those who are still suffering the trauma of colonialism come together(and which means almost all of non-european world)we can twist the tail of these thugs so well that they & their generations will regret the day they ventured out to loot & plunder the civilised worlds.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam
#357 Posted by harimau on February 10, 2001 5:39:18 pm
Ref Dionysus #339
Since you seem to specialize in looking only for information that confirms your biases, here is something from NYT. Don`t read it, you might actually get a clue about life in today`s India.
February 10, 2001
In Indian Quake, Unity Overcame Diversity
By JOHN F. BURNS
HORI, India, Feb. 7 — When this village awoke on a bright winter`s morning two weeks ago, all the talk was of the village cricket championship to be played that afternoon on a dusty stretch of open ground beyond the main Hindu temple and the mosque and the tiny, cramped houses that are home to the village`s poorest people, the dalits, traditionally known as untouchables.
Dhori is what is known in India as a mixed village, meaning that it has a roughly balanced population of Hindus and Muslims, and a smaller group of untouchables — people still counted by many high- and middle- caste Hindus as lying outside the ancient caste system, decades after India`s Constitution banned caste distinctions.
But Jan. 26, the day of the cricket match, was Republic Day, marking the day in 1950 when the Constitution was adopted, and the mood in the village was to forget old distinctions. So as morning fires were lighted and pigs and goats and dogs fed, the talk was of three Dhori men expected to star in the game — each, as it happened, from a different village group, each renowned for his skill in the three disciplines that define cricket. There was Haroon, a bowler, who is a Muslim; Hari, a batsman, who is a middle-caste Hindu; and Hamir, a fielder, who is a dalit.
That cricket match, of course, was never played. At 8:46 a.m., the normal life of Dhori came to an abrupt, shattering end, with an earthquake that left more than 900 towns and villages buried under rubble, along with many unrecovered bodies, and 19,000 known dead, perhaps upward to 100,000.
What the match represented, however — the villagers` capacity to pull together, especially at times of crisis — did not fail. On the contrary, villagers say, it triumphed, with Hindus and Muslims — and untouchables, once shunned by other Hindus, forbidden to walk on village pathways or to draw from upper-caste wells — clawing together in the rubble for survivors, giving one another rudimentary medical care and combining in the first, confused steps toward recovery.
``Hath milana, hath milana,`` said Walji Bhai, the 54-year-old ``sarpanch,`` or village chief — a phrase that in his own rough translation from the Gujarati language means, ``In times of trouble, join hands.``
Dhori`s ill fortune that day was to lie only three miles from the earthquake`s epicenter, and about 20 miles, by dusty road and now heaved bridges, from Bhuj, a market town where perhaps 10,000 died. The village`s good luck was that many of the residents were out of their simple single-story homes of stone and slate — the men in the alleyways or fields, the women out washing and feeding the animals, the children, freed from school for the day because of the holiday, outside playing.
Only 10 people died, although 914 out of 940 homes were reduced to rubble; those that were not were so severely buckled that they, too, will have to be rebuilt. Also destroyed were the primary health care clinic, the veterinarian`s surgery, the high school, the primary school, the water tower, the mosque and three Hindu temples. Dhori, in fact, was obliterated, and its residents forced to fashion new shelters in open ground with salvaged timber and makeshift tarpaulins stitched together from sacks of wheat delivered by the first relief trucks.
What the earthquake could not sunder was the kinship between Mr. Bhai and his fellow villagers. As he took visitors on a tour of the devastation, he turned and clasped B. S. Saneja, a 38-year-old Muslim who was named to the village`s earthquake relief committee headed by Mr. Bhai, along with four other Hindus, two other Muslims, and three untouchables. Together, they paused for photographs inside the shattered 300-year-old mosque and elsewhere, Mr. Bhai casually resting his arm on Mr. Saneja`s shoulder.
``We were already close, so in the earthquake, it was the same,`` said Mr. Bhai, whose committee has invited 600 Muslims from a nearby village to take shelter in a tented village the Indian Army plans to set up on open ground beside Dhori.
Mr. Saneja, the Muslim committeeman, agreed. ``This communal trouble that has happened elsewhere, this is all wrong, it is all about the game of politics, not what the people want. In Dhori, you must believe me, we have no such thing in our minds.``
The story of faith and community in India since independence in 1947, when Britain partitioned the continent into the separate states of India and Pakistan, has been mixed. There have been sharp enmities, and three wars, between predominantly Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan, accompanied by tensions, sometimes bursting into riots, between Hindus and Muslims within India itself, where more than 100 million Muslims live in an Indian population of over one billion.
By some estimates, there have been more than 10,000 ``communal riots`` — between Hindus and Muslims — since independence, some of them resulting in hundreds of deaths. But there has been nothing like the 1947 bloodletting, when vast migrations, of Muslims to Pakistan and Hindus to India, led to massacres that some histories say killed a million people.
Mostly, Hindus and Muslims have lived peacefully, while maintaining, especially in villages, lives that are in important respects separate, with predominantly Hindu and Muslim residential quarters, separate charities and distinct festivals.
But what the earthquake demonstrated, according to survivors in many towns and villages, was that what unites Hindus and Muslims is greater than what divides them — and that where there are divisions, they are often fanned by politicians, many of whom, Indians say, build their support around creed or caste or ethnic group, and see gain in maintaining schisms.
The example most often cited is in the testy, often hostile relationship between India and Pakistan, which was tested anew in the earthquake, and showed, again, how hard politicians can find it to put human concerns first.
In the past week, sorties of C-130 military transport aircraft with Pakistan`s crescent moon insignia have been landing at Bhuj, unloading the first relief supplies ever to pass between the two countries. The government of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee initially refused Pakistan`s offer, saying India had enough. Later, under criticism, the government changed its position, setting off what Indian newspapers have dubbed ``earthquake diplomacy,`` a term previously applied to the contacts opened between Greece and Turkey after Greece sent aid to Turkey after a 1999 earthquake.
After a telephone conversation between the two leaders in which Mr. Vajpayee thanked Pakistan for its aid, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan`s military ruler, renewed suggestions of a summit meeting with Mr. Vajpayee over the disputed territory of Kashmir, saying he hoped cooperation in the earthquake ``can lead to further movement`` in ties between the two nations.
India — with Mr. Vajpayee reportedly in favor but hard-liners in his cabinet against — has so far rejected the overture, saying Pakistan must first halt all cross-border incursions into Kashmir by Muslim guerrillas.
Although this region on the border with Pakistan and Gujarat State has been the scene of numerous riots between Hindus and Muslims since 1947, little of the trouble has occurred here in the western part of the state. This is not to say that there are no strains.
One Muslim in Bhuj, Kumar Pir Mohammed, a 35-year-old bank teller, was hailed among Hindus in the Gokal district of the town when, in the hours after the earthquake, he rushed alone into a collapsed apartment block where middle-class Hindus lived to try to save a man calling his son`s name from deep in the rubble.
The man died before a slab pinning him could be lifted, but Mr. Mohammed, aided by others, succeeded in saving a young woman lying trapped nearby — coincidentally, a Muslim housemaid whose family lives near Mr. Mohammed`s.
Mr. Mohammed, with the full beard of a devout Muslim, said that he had stood for some time among a group of Hindus outside the ruined apartment block, reluctant to venture into the rubble in case he was accused of looting. Muslims in Bhuj, and the region, are generally poorer and less educated than Hindus, as they are on the average all across India, and Mr. Mohammed said he feared his motive could be mistaken. ``To me, at that moment, it made a difference that it was a Hindu building,`` he said. ``But I consider a human being a human being, and whosoever is in need, I should help.``
In Dhori, where Muslims and Hindus live in mixed neighborhoods, the village abounds with similar tales of Muslims helping save Hindus, and vice versa. Relief trucks reaching the village from two Indian charities — the Swaminarayan Trust, a Gujarat-based Hindu organizations that runs an extensive network of schools and temples, and Jamaat-e-Islami Hind, an Indian offshoot of a Muslim religious group that preaches an ascetic, sometimes militant brand of Islam — have handed over the supplies to Mr. Bhai`s relief committee, to be divided among the villagers without concern for faith.
``This is a Muslim house, that one is a Hindu house, and that one, again is a Muslim house — all mixed!`` said Mr. Bhai as he led the visitors down a pathway cleared between piles of rubble that had been homes, with buckled beds and smashed mirrors and the crumpled remains of motorbikes, three-wheeler taxis and, here and there, small cars, under mounds of heavy stones that had been walls.
``So how can we choose? How can we say, `This human being is more important than that human being?` No, no, before we are Muslims and Hindus, we are human beings, we are creatures of God.``
Since you seem to specialize in looking only for information that confirms your biases, here is something from NYT. Don`t read it, you might actually get a clue about life in today`s India.
February 10, 2001
In Indian Quake, Unity Overcame Diversity
By JOHN F. BURNS
HORI, India, Feb. 7 — When this village awoke on a bright winter`s morning two weeks ago, all the talk was of the village cricket championship to be played that afternoon on a dusty stretch of open ground beyond the main Hindu temple and the mosque and the tiny, cramped houses that are home to the village`s poorest people, the dalits, traditionally known as untouchables.
Dhori is what is known in India as a mixed village, meaning that it has a roughly balanced population of Hindus and Muslims, and a smaller group of untouchables — people still counted by many high- and middle- caste Hindus as lying outside the ancient caste system, decades after India`s Constitution banned caste distinctions.
But Jan. 26, the day of the cricket match, was Republic Day, marking the day in 1950 when the Constitution was adopted, and the mood in the village was to forget old distinctions. So as morning fires were lighted and pigs and goats and dogs fed, the talk was of three Dhori men expected to star in the game — each, as it happened, from a different village group, each renowned for his skill in the three disciplines that define cricket. There was Haroon, a bowler, who is a Muslim; Hari, a batsman, who is a middle-caste Hindu; and Hamir, a fielder, who is a dalit.
That cricket match, of course, was never played. At 8:46 a.m., the normal life of Dhori came to an abrupt, shattering end, with an earthquake that left more than 900 towns and villages buried under rubble, along with many unrecovered bodies, and 19,000 known dead, perhaps upward to 100,000.
What the match represented, however — the villagers` capacity to pull together, especially at times of crisis — did not fail. On the contrary, villagers say, it triumphed, with Hindus and Muslims — and untouchables, once shunned by other Hindus, forbidden to walk on village pathways or to draw from upper-caste wells — clawing together in the rubble for survivors, giving one another rudimentary medical care and combining in the first, confused steps toward recovery.
``Hath milana, hath milana,`` said Walji Bhai, the 54-year-old ``sarpanch,`` or village chief — a phrase that in his own rough translation from the Gujarati language means, ``In times of trouble, join hands.``
Dhori`s ill fortune that day was to lie only three miles from the earthquake`s epicenter, and about 20 miles, by dusty road and now heaved bridges, from Bhuj, a market town where perhaps 10,000 died. The village`s good luck was that many of the residents were out of their simple single-story homes of stone and slate — the men in the alleyways or fields, the women out washing and feeding the animals, the children, freed from school for the day because of the holiday, outside playing.
Only 10 people died, although 914 out of 940 homes were reduced to rubble; those that were not were so severely buckled that they, too, will have to be rebuilt. Also destroyed were the primary health care clinic, the veterinarian`s surgery, the high school, the primary school, the water tower, the mosque and three Hindu temples. Dhori, in fact, was obliterated, and its residents forced to fashion new shelters in open ground with salvaged timber and makeshift tarpaulins stitched together from sacks of wheat delivered by the first relief trucks.
What the earthquake could not sunder was the kinship between Mr. Bhai and his fellow villagers. As he took visitors on a tour of the devastation, he turned and clasped B. S. Saneja, a 38-year-old Muslim who was named to the village`s earthquake relief committee headed by Mr. Bhai, along with four other Hindus, two other Muslims, and three untouchables. Together, they paused for photographs inside the shattered 300-year-old mosque and elsewhere, Mr. Bhai casually resting his arm on Mr. Saneja`s shoulder.
``We were already close, so in the earthquake, it was the same,`` said Mr. Bhai, whose committee has invited 600 Muslims from a nearby village to take shelter in a tented village the Indian Army plans to set up on open ground beside Dhori.
Mr. Saneja, the Muslim committeeman, agreed. ``This communal trouble that has happened elsewhere, this is all wrong, it is all about the game of politics, not what the people want. In Dhori, you must believe me, we have no such thing in our minds.``
The story of faith and community in India since independence in 1947, when Britain partitioned the continent into the separate states of India and Pakistan, has been mixed. There have been sharp enmities, and three wars, between predominantly Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan, accompanied by tensions, sometimes bursting into riots, between Hindus and Muslims within India itself, where more than 100 million Muslims live in an Indian population of over one billion.
By some estimates, there have been more than 10,000 ``communal riots`` — between Hindus and Muslims — since independence, some of them resulting in hundreds of deaths. But there has been nothing like the 1947 bloodletting, when vast migrations, of Muslims to Pakistan and Hindus to India, led to massacres that some histories say killed a million people.
Mostly, Hindus and Muslims have lived peacefully, while maintaining, especially in villages, lives that are in important respects separate, with predominantly Hindu and Muslim residential quarters, separate charities and distinct festivals.
But what the earthquake demonstrated, according to survivors in many towns and villages, was that what unites Hindus and Muslims is greater than what divides them — and that where there are divisions, they are often fanned by politicians, many of whom, Indians say, build their support around creed or caste or ethnic group, and see gain in maintaining schisms.
The example most often cited is in the testy, often hostile relationship between India and Pakistan, which was tested anew in the earthquake, and showed, again, how hard politicians can find it to put human concerns first.
In the past week, sorties of C-130 military transport aircraft with Pakistan`s crescent moon insignia have been landing at Bhuj, unloading the first relief supplies ever to pass between the two countries. The government of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee initially refused Pakistan`s offer, saying India had enough. Later, under criticism, the government changed its position, setting off what Indian newspapers have dubbed ``earthquake diplomacy,`` a term previously applied to the contacts opened between Greece and Turkey after Greece sent aid to Turkey after a 1999 earthquake.
After a telephone conversation between the two leaders in which Mr. Vajpayee thanked Pakistan for its aid, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan`s military ruler, renewed suggestions of a summit meeting with Mr. Vajpayee over the disputed territory of Kashmir, saying he hoped cooperation in the earthquake ``can lead to further movement`` in ties between the two nations.
India — with Mr. Vajpayee reportedly in favor but hard-liners in his cabinet against — has so far rejected the overture, saying Pakistan must first halt all cross-border incursions into Kashmir by Muslim guerrillas.
Although this region on the border with Pakistan and Gujarat State has been the scene of numerous riots between Hindus and Muslims since 1947, little of the trouble has occurred here in the western part of the state. This is not to say that there are no strains.
One Muslim in Bhuj, Kumar Pir Mohammed, a 35-year-old bank teller, was hailed among Hindus in the Gokal district of the town when, in the hours after the earthquake, he rushed alone into a collapsed apartment block where middle-class Hindus lived to try to save a man calling his son`s name from deep in the rubble.
The man died before a slab pinning him could be lifted, but Mr. Mohammed, aided by others, succeeded in saving a young woman lying trapped nearby — coincidentally, a Muslim housemaid whose family lives near Mr. Mohammed`s.
Mr. Mohammed, with the full beard of a devout Muslim, said that he had stood for some time among a group of Hindus outside the ruined apartment block, reluctant to venture into the rubble in case he was accused of looting. Muslims in Bhuj, and the region, are generally poorer and less educated than Hindus, as they are on the average all across India, and Mr. Mohammed said he feared his motive could be mistaken. ``To me, at that moment, it made a difference that it was a Hindu building,`` he said. ``But I consider a human being a human being, and whosoever is in need, I should help.``
In Dhori, where Muslims and Hindus live in mixed neighborhoods, the village abounds with similar tales of Muslims helping save Hindus, and vice versa. Relief trucks reaching the village from two Indian charities — the Swaminarayan Trust, a Gujarat-based Hindu organizations that runs an extensive network of schools and temples, and Jamaat-e-Islami Hind, an Indian offshoot of a Muslim religious group that preaches an ascetic, sometimes militant brand of Islam — have handed over the supplies to Mr. Bhai`s relief committee, to be divided among the villagers without concern for faith.
``This is a Muslim house, that one is a Hindu house, and that one, again is a Muslim house — all mixed!`` said Mr. Bhai as he led the visitors down a pathway cleared between piles of rubble that had been homes, with buckled beds and smashed mirrors and the crumpled remains of motorbikes, three-wheeler taxis and, here and there, small cars, under mounds of heavy stones that had been walls.
``So how can we choose? How can we say, `This human being is more important than that human being?` No, no, before we are Muslims and Hindus, we are human beings, we are creatures of God.``
#356 Posted by shammi on February 10, 2001 5:39:18 pm
These simple-minded village people should put to shame the more educated, fortunate, but too-immature-to-realize-it Chowkwallahs:
From todays New York Times
In Indian Quake, Unity Overcame Diversity
HORI, India, Feb. 7 — When this village awoke on a bright winter`s morning two weeks ago, all the talk was of the village cricket championship to be played that afternoon on a dusty stretch of open ground beyond the main Hindu temple and the mosque and the tiny, cramped houses that are home to the village`s poorest people, the dalits, traditionally known as untouchables.
Dhori is what is known in India as a mixed village, meaning that it has a roughly balanced population of Hindus and Muslims, and a smaller group of untouchables — people still counted by many high- and middle- caste Hindus as lying outside the ancient caste system, decades after India`s Constitution banned caste distinctions.
But Jan. 26, the day of the cricket match, was Republic Day, marking the day in 1950 when the Constitution was adopted, and the mood in the village was to forget old distinctions. So as morning fires were lighted and pigs and goats and dogs fed, the talk was of three Dhori men expected to star in the game — each, as it happened, from a different village group, each renowned for his skill in the three disciplines that define cricket. There was Haroon, a bowler, who is a Muslim; Hari, a batsman, who is a middle-caste Hindu; and Hamir, a fielder, who is a dalit.
That cricket match, of course, was never played. At 8:46 a.m., the normal life of Dhori came to an abrupt, shattering end, with an earthquake that left more than 900 towns and villages buried under rubble, along with many unrecovered bodies, and 19,000 known dead, perhaps upward to 100,000.
What the match represented, however — the villagers` capacity to pull together, especially at times of crisis — did not fail. On the contrary, villagers say, it triumphed, with Hindus and Muslims — and untouchables, once shunned by other Hindus, forbidden to walk on village pathways or to draw from upper-caste wells — clawing together in the rubble for survivors, giving one another rudimentary medical care and combining in the first, confused steps toward recovery.
``Hath milana, hath milana,`` said Walji Bhai, the 54-year-old ``sarpanch,`` or village chief — a phrase that in his own rough translation from the Gujarati language means, ``In times of trouble, join hands.``
Dhori`s ill fortune that day was to lie only three miles from the earthquake`s epicenter, and about 20 miles, by dusty road and now heaved bridges, from Bhuj, a market town where perhaps 10,000 died. The village`s good luck was that many of the residents were out of their simple single-story homes of stone and slate — the men in the alleyways or fields, the women out washing and feeding the animals, the children, freed from school for the day because of the holiday, outside playing.
Only 10 people died, although 914 out of 940 homes were reduced to rubble; those that were not were so severely buckled that they, too, will have to be rebuilt. Also destroyed were the primary health care clinic, the veterinarian`s surgery, the high school, the primary school, the water tower, the mosque and three Hindu temples. Dhori, in fact, was obliterated, and its residents forced to fashion new shelters in open ground with salvaged timber and makeshift tarpaulins stitched together from sacks of wheat delivered by the first relief trucks.
What the earthquake could not sunder was the kinship between Mr. Bhai and his fellow villagers. As he took visitors on a tour of the devastation, he turned and clasped B. S. Saneja, a 38-year-old Muslim who was named to the village`s earthquake relief committee headed by Mr. Bhai, along with four other Hindus, two other Muslims, and three untouchables. Together, they paused for photographs inside the shattered 300-year-old mosque and elsewhere, Mr. Bhai casually resting his arm on Mr. Saneja`s shoulder.
``We were already close, so in the earthquake, it was the same,`` said Mr. Bhai, whose committee has invited 600 Muslims from a nearby village to take shelter in a tented village the Indian Army plans to set up on open ground beside Dhori.
Mr. Saneja, the Muslim committeeman, agreed. ``This communal trouble that has happened elsewhere, this is all wrong, it is all about the game of politics, not what the people want. In Dhori, you must believe me, we have no such thing in our minds.``
The story of faith and community in India since independence in 1947, when Britain partitioned the continent into the separate states of India and Pakistan, has been mixed. There have been sharp enmities, and three wars, between predominantly Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan, accompanied by tensions, sometimes bursting into riots, between Hindus and Muslims within India itself, where more than 100 million Muslims live in an Indian population of over one billion.
By some estimates, there have been more than 10,000 ``communal riots`` — between Hindus and Muslims — since independence, some of them resulting in hundreds of deaths. But there has been nothing like the 1947 bloodletting, when vast migrations, of Muslims to Pakistan and Hindus to India, led to massacres that some histories say killed a million people.
Mostly, Hindus and Muslims have lived peacefully, while maintaining, especially in villages, lives that are in important respects separate, with predominantly Hindu and Muslim residential quarters, separate charities and distinct festivals.
But what the earthquake demonstrated, according to survivors in many towns and villages, was that what unites Hindus and Muslims is greater than what divides them — and that where there are divisions, they are often fanned by politicians, many of whom, Indians say, build their support around creed or caste or ethnic group, and see gain in maintaining schisms.
The example most often cited is in the testy, often hostile relationship between India and Pakistan, which was tested anew in the earthquake, and showed, again, how hard politicians can find it to put human concerns first.
In the past week, sorties of C-130 military transport aircraft with Pakistan`s crescent moon insignia have been landing at Bhuj, unloading the first relief supplies ever to pass between the two countries. The government of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee initially refused Pakistan`s offer, saying India had enough. Later, under criticism, the government changed its position, setting off what Indian newspapers have dubbed ``earthquake diplomacy,`` a term previously applied to the contacts opened between Greece and Turkey after Greece sent aid to Turkey after a 1999 earthquake.
After a telephone conversation between the two leaders in which Mr. Vajpayee thanked Pakistan for its aid, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan`s military ruler, renewed suggestions of a summit meeting with Mr. Vajpayee over the disputed territory of Kashmir, saying he hoped cooperation in the earthquake ``can lead to further movement`` in ties between the two nations.
India — with Mr. Vajpayee reportedly in favor but hard-liners in his cabinet against — has so far rejected the overture, saying Pakistan must first halt all cross-border incursions into Kashmir by Muslim guerrillas.
Although this region on the border with Pakistan and Gujarat State has been the scene of numerous riots between Hindus and Muslims since 1947, little of the trouble has occurred here in the western part of the state. This is not to say that there are no strains.
One Muslim in Bhuj, Kumar Pir Mohammed, a 35-year-old bank teller, was hailed among Hindus in the Gokal district of the town when, in the hours after the earthquake, he rushed alone into a collapsed apartment block where middle-class Hindus lived to try to save a man calling his son`s name from deep in the rubble.
The man died before a slab pinning him could be lifted, but Mr. Mohammed, aided by others, succeeded in saving a young woman lying trapped nearby — coincidentally, a Muslim housemaid whose family lives near Mr. Mohammed`s.
Mr. Mohammed, with the full beard of a devout Muslim, said that he had stood for some time among a group of Hindus outside the ruined apartment block, reluctant to venture into the rubble in case he was accused of looting. Muslims in Bhuj, and the region, are generally poorer and less educated than Hindus, as they are on the average all across India, and Mr. Mohammed said he feared his motive could be mistaken. ``To me, at that moment, it made a difference that it was a Hindu building,`` he said. ``But I consider a human being a human being, and whosoever is in need, I should help.``
In Dhori, where Muslims and Hindus live in mixed neighborhoods, the village abounds with similar tales of Muslims helping save Hindus, and vice versa. Relief trucks reaching the village from two Indian charities — the Swaminarayan Trust, a Gujarat-based Hindu organizations that runs an extensive network of schools and temples, and Jamaat-e-Islami Hind, an Indian offshoot of a Muslim religious group that preaches an ascetic, sometimes militant brand of Islam — have handed over the supplies to Mr. Bhai`s relief committee, to be divided among the villagers without concern for faith.
``This is a Muslim house, that one is a Hindu house, and that one, again is a Muslim house — all mixed!`` said Mr. Bhai as he led the visitors down a pathway cleared between piles of rubble that had been homes, with buckled beds and smashed mirrors and the crumpled remains of motorbikes, three-wheeler taxis and, here and there, small cars, under mounds of heavy stones that had been walls.
``So how can we choose? How can we say, `This human being is more important than that human being?` No, no, before we are Muslims and Hindus, we are human beings, we are creatures of God.``
From todays New York Times
In Indian Quake, Unity Overcame Diversity
HORI, India, Feb. 7 — When this village awoke on a bright winter`s morning two weeks ago, all the talk was of the village cricket championship to be played that afternoon on a dusty stretch of open ground beyond the main Hindu temple and the mosque and the tiny, cramped houses that are home to the village`s poorest people, the dalits, traditionally known as untouchables.
Dhori is what is known in India as a mixed village, meaning that it has a roughly balanced population of Hindus and Muslims, and a smaller group of untouchables — people still counted by many high- and middle- caste Hindus as lying outside the ancient caste system, decades after India`s Constitution banned caste distinctions.
But Jan. 26, the day of the cricket match, was Republic Day, marking the day in 1950 when the Constitution was adopted, and the mood in the village was to forget old distinctions. So as morning fires were lighted and pigs and goats and dogs fed, the talk was of three Dhori men expected to star in the game — each, as it happened, from a different village group, each renowned for his skill in the three disciplines that define cricket. There was Haroon, a bowler, who is a Muslim; Hari, a batsman, who is a middle-caste Hindu; and Hamir, a fielder, who is a dalit.
That cricket match, of course, was never played. At 8:46 a.m., the normal life of Dhori came to an abrupt, shattering end, with an earthquake that left more than 900 towns and villages buried under rubble, along with many unrecovered bodies, and 19,000 known dead, perhaps upward to 100,000.
What the match represented, however — the villagers` capacity to pull together, especially at times of crisis — did not fail. On the contrary, villagers say, it triumphed, with Hindus and Muslims — and untouchables, once shunned by other Hindus, forbidden to walk on village pathways or to draw from upper-caste wells — clawing together in the rubble for survivors, giving one another rudimentary medical care and combining in the first, confused steps toward recovery.
``Hath milana, hath milana,`` said Walji Bhai, the 54-year-old ``sarpanch,`` or village chief — a phrase that in his own rough translation from the Gujarati language means, ``In times of trouble, join hands.``
Dhori`s ill fortune that day was to lie only three miles from the earthquake`s epicenter, and about 20 miles, by dusty road and now heaved bridges, from Bhuj, a market town where perhaps 10,000 died. The village`s good luck was that many of the residents were out of their simple single-story homes of stone and slate — the men in the alleyways or fields, the women out washing and feeding the animals, the children, freed from school for the day because of the holiday, outside playing.
Only 10 people died, although 914 out of 940 homes were reduced to rubble; those that were not were so severely buckled that they, too, will have to be rebuilt. Also destroyed were the primary health care clinic, the veterinarian`s surgery, the high school, the primary school, the water tower, the mosque and three Hindu temples. Dhori, in fact, was obliterated, and its residents forced to fashion new shelters in open ground with salvaged timber and makeshift tarpaulins stitched together from sacks of wheat delivered by the first relief trucks.
What the earthquake could not sunder was the kinship between Mr. Bhai and his fellow villagers. As he took visitors on a tour of the devastation, he turned and clasped B. S. Saneja, a 38-year-old Muslim who was named to the village`s earthquake relief committee headed by Mr. Bhai, along with four other Hindus, two other Muslims, and three untouchables. Together, they paused for photographs inside the shattered 300-year-old mosque and elsewhere, Mr. Bhai casually resting his arm on Mr. Saneja`s shoulder.
``We were already close, so in the earthquake, it was the same,`` said Mr. Bhai, whose committee has invited 600 Muslims from a nearby village to take shelter in a tented village the Indian Army plans to set up on open ground beside Dhori.
Mr. Saneja, the Muslim committeeman, agreed. ``This communal trouble that has happened elsewhere, this is all wrong, it is all about the game of politics, not what the people want. In Dhori, you must believe me, we have no such thing in our minds.``
The story of faith and community in India since independence in 1947, when Britain partitioned the continent into the separate states of India and Pakistan, has been mixed. There have been sharp enmities, and three wars, between predominantly Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan, accompanied by tensions, sometimes bursting into riots, between Hindus and Muslims within India itself, where more than 100 million Muslims live in an Indian population of over one billion.
By some estimates, there have been more than 10,000 ``communal riots`` — between Hindus and Muslims — since independence, some of them resulting in hundreds of deaths. But there has been nothing like the 1947 bloodletting, when vast migrations, of Muslims to Pakistan and Hindus to India, led to massacres that some histories say killed a million people.
Mostly, Hindus and Muslims have lived peacefully, while maintaining, especially in villages, lives that are in important respects separate, with predominantly Hindu and Muslim residential quarters, separate charities and distinct festivals.
But what the earthquake demonstrated, according to survivors in many towns and villages, was that what unites Hindus and Muslims is greater than what divides them — and that where there are divisions, they are often fanned by politicians, many of whom, Indians say, build their support around creed or caste or ethnic group, and see gain in maintaining schisms.
The example most often cited is in the testy, often hostile relationship between India and Pakistan, which was tested anew in the earthquake, and showed, again, how hard politicians can find it to put human concerns first.
In the past week, sorties of C-130 military transport aircraft with Pakistan`s crescent moon insignia have been landing at Bhuj, unloading the first relief supplies ever to pass between the two countries. The government of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee initially refused Pakistan`s offer, saying India had enough. Later, under criticism, the government changed its position, setting off what Indian newspapers have dubbed ``earthquake diplomacy,`` a term previously applied to the contacts opened between Greece and Turkey after Greece sent aid to Turkey after a 1999 earthquake.
After a telephone conversation between the two leaders in which Mr. Vajpayee thanked Pakistan for its aid, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan`s military ruler, renewed suggestions of a summit meeting with Mr. Vajpayee over the disputed territory of Kashmir, saying he hoped cooperation in the earthquake ``can lead to further movement`` in ties between the two nations.
India — with Mr. Vajpayee reportedly in favor but hard-liners in his cabinet against — has so far rejected the overture, saying Pakistan must first halt all cross-border incursions into Kashmir by Muslim guerrillas.
Although this region on the border with Pakistan and Gujarat State has been the scene of numerous riots between Hindus and Muslims since 1947, little of the trouble has occurred here in the western part of the state. This is not to say that there are no strains.
One Muslim in Bhuj, Kumar Pir Mohammed, a 35-year-old bank teller, was hailed among Hindus in the Gokal district of the town when, in the hours after the earthquake, he rushed alone into a collapsed apartment block where middle-class Hindus lived to try to save a man calling his son`s name from deep in the rubble.
The man died before a slab pinning him could be lifted, but Mr. Mohammed, aided by others, succeeded in saving a young woman lying trapped nearby — coincidentally, a Muslim housemaid whose family lives near Mr. Mohammed`s.
Mr. Mohammed, with the full beard of a devout Muslim, said that he had stood for some time among a group of Hindus outside the ruined apartment block, reluctant to venture into the rubble in case he was accused of looting. Muslims in Bhuj, and the region, are generally poorer and less educated than Hindus, as they are on the average all across India, and Mr. Mohammed said he feared his motive could be mistaken. ``To me, at that moment, it made a difference that it was a Hindu building,`` he said. ``But I consider a human being a human being, and whosoever is in need, I should help.``
In Dhori, where Muslims and Hindus live in mixed neighborhoods, the village abounds with similar tales of Muslims helping save Hindus, and vice versa. Relief trucks reaching the village from two Indian charities — the Swaminarayan Trust, a Gujarat-based Hindu organizations that runs an extensive network of schools and temples, and Jamaat-e-Islami Hind, an Indian offshoot of a Muslim religious group that preaches an ascetic, sometimes militant brand of Islam — have handed over the supplies to Mr. Bhai`s relief committee, to be divided among the villagers without concern for faith.
``This is a Muslim house, that one is a Hindu house, and that one, again is a Muslim house — all mixed!`` said Mr. Bhai as he led the visitors down a pathway cleared between piles of rubble that had been homes, with buckled beds and smashed mirrors and the crumpled remains of motorbikes, three-wheeler taxis and, here and there, small cars, under mounds of heavy stones that had been walls.
``So how can we choose? How can we say, `This human being is more important than that human being?` No, no, before we are Muslims and Hindus, we are human beings, we are creatures of God.``
#355 Posted by rsaxena on February 10, 2001 5:39:18 pm
Re: Zahra
Thanks again...I have seen it spelled as burqa too..that is why I asked...but I will accept your authority on the topic.
``There are certain classics that you do not want to wait for, but there are many others that`ve been around for a while and one would rather find the discounted tickets than phoro-fying money.``
I will wait for it to become a classic then. I`d rather not phoro-fy money either.
Thanks again...I have seen it spelled as burqa too..that is why I asked...but I will accept your authority on the topic.
``There are certain classics that you do not want to wait for, but there are many others that`ve been around for a while and one would rather find the discounted tickets than phoro-fying money.``
I will wait for it to become a classic then. I`d rather not phoro-fy money either.
#354 Posted by Zahra on February 10, 2001 1:33:52 pm
RSaxena:
You often write burkha, therefore I pointed it out. Correction was in two phases:
Phase I: Take the ``h`` out.
Phase II: Substitute ``k`` with ``q``.
Hope that helps.
PS: I have not watched the play yet and personally will wait till the Time Square Tourists`Center comes out with their special deal on ``Kiss me Kate.`` There are certain
You often write burkha, therefore I pointed it out. Correction was in two phases:
Phase I: Take the ``h`` out.
Phase II: Substitute ``k`` with ``q``.
Hope that helps.
PS: I have not watched the play yet and personally will wait till the Time Square Tourists`Center comes out with their special deal on ``Kiss me Kate.`` There are certain