What Constitutes Blasphemy?
Chowk P Room January 31, 2001
#573 Posted by rsridhar on February 13, 2001 8:09:40 pm
Re: reply # 531
Shammi,
I agree with you completely that India must support Musharraf if he is sincere about reigning in the Jihadis. But how do we know he is sincere? However hard i try,i cannot forget that this is the man who did a ``Kargil`` on us. Remember the euphoria during the days of bus diplomacy. Just when things seem to be on the right track,this guy pulls of a ``Kargil`` which in the initial days is declared as a brilliant military strategy by the Pakistani press. As the saying goes the proof of pudding is in the eating. His actions will declare his intentions. In the meanwhile we can only patiently wait and see what happens.
sridhar
Shammi,
I agree with you completely that India must support Musharraf if he is sincere about reigning in the Jihadis. But how do we know he is sincere? However hard i try,i cannot forget that this is the man who did a ``Kargil`` on us. Remember the euphoria during the days of bus diplomacy. Just when things seem to be on the right track,this guy pulls of a ``Kargil`` which in the initial days is declared as a brilliant military strategy by the Pakistani press. As the saying goes the proof of pudding is in the eating. His actions will declare his intentions. In the meanwhile we can only patiently wait and see what happens.
sridhar
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#572 Posted by Barrister Amir on February 13, 2001 8:09:40 pm
ylh #563
dear muslims.
we should strive about shallowness of viewing issues from a singular perspective.which may be incoreect. but should base our judgements and thoughts on enlightened thought. ie taking a comprehensive perspective of all issues. to gain the greatest insight on a matter.
1. the khilafah is an an islamic obligation farz! and is noted as such through numerous verified islamic evidences. whihc i have highligted in my previous posts. (kindly read below). it is the general leadership of all muslims , implements islam defends the beleivers and carries islam to the world.
2. hizb ut tahrir is an political party whose ideology is islam. it is not built upon bitterness of stagnation. but an enlightened understanding on the problems facing humanity and the solution to our problems through the comprehensive evideces elucidated from islam (please read my previous posts on islamic revival and the need to re establish the khilafah) further our sincerity is renouned as thousands upon thousands of our members men as well as women who arrested some for merelly distributing a leaflets on this issues do not despiar. nor cry nor insult or attack. but say alhamdullilah. and hug each other with smiles on their faces when tyranical regimes thoughout the muslim world. arrest torture and execute those amongst them. (please read international press reports).
4, hizb ut tahrir`s work and methodology is based upon ijtihad and the detailed evedences highlited in my previous posts. we do not seek support through charasmatic speakers or rhetoric propoganda. rather we seek to raise the intelectual strength amongst the ummah. and you will find many thoughout the ummah who are in our ranks. are those who are amongst the most enligthened amongst the ummah.
5. hizb ut tahrir is known throughout the world as a non militant organisation. we are not terrorists. and do not beleive violence is the method to re establish the islamic khilafah.
6. define ``Modern progressive islam``?
the muslim countires today are economically. politically militarily, and culturally dominated by western capitalist nations!!. further defiine progressive ?
if you refer to material acceration. the muslims in the past from the desert arabs from the time of mohhamed saws rose to become the superpowers of the earth. for many many centruries. and only declined when they lost their detailed understanding of islam. and the onslught of foreign philosphies alien to islam. which took root in them and confused many amonst the ummah. leading us now to the present disparate position where muslims are disparate divided, and live in dysfunctional socieites.
further if modern refers to those who reject clear cut rules of islam. i do not call them modern but extremists. as they have transcented beyond the limitations of sharia and adopted thoughts beyond the remit codifed by islam.
as for islam being applicable for all times and realities and how we can raise the muslims from our present decline. intelectual, political, economical, and cultural. hizb ut tahrir has written extensivelly on this matter. and are renouned for our detialed and practical solutions to resolve the problems facing the ummah. earlier this week , as mentioned previously i met mr farhan bokhari and mr niazi who are the finacial times rep in pakistan and the editor of the jang respectively. both ackhowledged the viablity of a solution raised by a meber of hizb ut tahrir of how effectivelly we can eradicate almost immiediatelly the $65 billion debts pakistan owes and is inslaved to foreign western capitalist doners by.
for more information of islamic revival and for an intelectual enlightenment please visit...
www.khilafah.com.pk and our affilaited sites thoughout the world.
Barrister Ahmer Sajid.
dear muslims.
we should strive about shallowness of viewing issues from a singular perspective.which may be incoreect. but should base our judgements and thoughts on enlightened thought. ie taking a comprehensive perspective of all issues. to gain the greatest insight on a matter.
1. the khilafah is an an islamic obligation farz! and is noted as such through numerous verified islamic evidences. whihc i have highligted in my previous posts. (kindly read below). it is the general leadership of all muslims , implements islam defends the beleivers and carries islam to the world.
2. hizb ut tahrir is an political party whose ideology is islam. it is not built upon bitterness of stagnation. but an enlightened understanding on the problems facing humanity and the solution to our problems through the comprehensive evideces elucidated from islam (please read my previous posts on islamic revival and the need to re establish the khilafah) further our sincerity is renouned as thousands upon thousands of our members men as well as women who arrested some for merelly distributing a leaflets on this issues do not despiar. nor cry nor insult or attack. but say alhamdullilah. and hug each other with smiles on their faces when tyranical regimes thoughout the muslim world. arrest torture and execute those amongst them. (please read international press reports).
4, hizb ut tahrir`s work and methodology is based upon ijtihad and the detailed evedences highlited in my previous posts. we do not seek support through charasmatic speakers or rhetoric propoganda. rather we seek to raise the intelectual strength amongst the ummah. and you will find many thoughout the ummah who are in our ranks. are those who are amongst the most enligthened amongst the ummah.
5. hizb ut tahrir is known throughout the world as a non militant organisation. we are not terrorists. and do not beleive violence is the method to re establish the islamic khilafah.
6. define ``Modern progressive islam``?
the muslim countires today are economically. politically militarily, and culturally dominated by western capitalist nations!!. further defiine progressive ?
if you refer to material acceration. the muslims in the past from the desert arabs from the time of mohhamed saws rose to become the superpowers of the earth. for many many centruries. and only declined when they lost their detailed understanding of islam. and the onslught of foreign philosphies alien to islam. which took root in them and confused many amonst the ummah. leading us now to the present disparate position where muslims are disparate divided, and live in dysfunctional socieites.
further if modern refers to those who reject clear cut rules of islam. i do not call them modern but extremists. as they have transcented beyond the limitations of sharia and adopted thoughts beyond the remit codifed by islam.
as for islam being applicable for all times and realities and how we can raise the muslims from our present decline. intelectual, political, economical, and cultural. hizb ut tahrir has written extensivelly on this matter. and are renouned for our detialed and practical solutions to resolve the problems facing the ummah. earlier this week , as mentioned previously i met mr farhan bokhari and mr niazi who are the finacial times rep in pakistan and the editor of the jang respectively. both ackhowledged the viablity of a solution raised by a meber of hizb ut tahrir of how effectivelly we can eradicate almost immiediatelly the $65 billion debts pakistan owes and is inslaved to foreign western capitalist doners by.
for more information of islamic revival and for an intelectual enlightenment please visit...
www.khilafah.com.pk and our affilaited sites thoughout the world.
Barrister Ahmer Sajid.
#571 Posted by farangi_kush on February 13, 2001 8:09:40 pm
Zahra:#565
To complete the sextrain:
``Firqua Bandi hai kaheeN aur kaheeN zaatain haiN
Kya zumaanay mein panapnaiN kee yaheeh baataiN haiN?``
AND to cap it ALL:
``Kee muhammad sey vafaa toO ney tO hum tairay hain
Yeh jahaaN cheez hai kyaa,LoH o QulaM,teray haiN``.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
To complete the sextrain:
``Firqua Bandi hai kaheeN aur kaheeN zaatain haiN
Kya zumaanay mein panapnaiN kee yaheeh baataiN haiN?``
AND to cap it ALL:
``Kee muhammad sey vafaa toO ney tO hum tairay hain
Yeh jahaaN cheez hai kyaa,LoH o QulaM,teray haiN``.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
#570 Posted by adnan_672 on February 13, 2001 8:09:40 pm
Dear sattar:
First of all u always avoid the issues. Instead of answering my posting pointwise u posed some questions (of ur earlier posting).
I will do so in steps
Furthermore u did not answer my question ``Do Mr. Mirza, His Khulufa, and his followers consider the rest of the muslims to be non-muslims?``
Anyways I m answering ur post pointwise, i expect a similar answer from ur side.
Posting One From The Quran
MEANING OF KHATIM UN NABIYYIN:
For 1300 yrs ALL muslim scholars were clear on the meaning of ``Khatim un nabiyyin``
Lets look at the verse of the Quran:
``O people ! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Apostle of God and the last in the line of Prophets. And God is Aware of everything.`` (Surah Al Ahzab: 40)
Khatim Un Nabiyyin = Last in the line of Prophets
U object to this translation.
Look at the context. Quran is discussing the marriage of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to Hadrat Zainab (RA).
Hypocrites argued that Zainab was the wife of an adopted son of the Holy Prophet and by this connection she stood in the position of the Prophet`s daughter in-law.
In the first place, they had charged ``You have taken your daughter-in-law as wife, in contravention of your own law that the wife of a son is forbidden to his father.``
In refutation of this charge it was affirmed by the Almighty:
``Muhammad had no sons among ye men...``
thereby making absolutely clear that the man whose divorced wife was taken into wedlock by the Prophet being not his real son; the act, therefore did not imply violation of it.
The argument of their second charge ran thus:
``Admitted that the adopted son is not the real one, and on that basis a father might lawfully marry the divorced spouse of his adopted son, but where was the compulsion for the Prophet to do so?``
Allah affirmed in answer to this charge:
``But, verily, he is the Apostle of Allah``.
The implication is that it was Allah`s mandate to the Holy Prophet to wipe out all prejudices and declare all taboos that pagan custom had unnecessarily imposed upon the people, as lawful. In this respect the Prophet`s action was unequivocal and left no room for doubt.
But could not this duty be performed by another Prophet in the yrs to come? why MUST Prophet Muhammad (SAW) be the one to do this?
In order to lay particular emphasis upon this point Allah observes: (Khatim Al-Nabbiyeen)
``And he is the last in the line of Prophets,``
This is the context in which the phrase appears.
The Dictionary Meaning of the Word `Khatam-al-Nabiyyin`
Futhermore tt is not only the context that supports this interpretation but also the lexicography.
(This from my former posting)
According to Arabic lexicon and the linguistic usage Khatam means to affix seal; to close, to come to an end; and to carry something to its ultimate end.
Khatama al-`Amala is equivalent to `Faragha min al-`Almali` which means `to get over with the task.`
`Khatama al-Ina` bears the meaning `The vessel has been closed and sealed so that nothing can go into it, nor can its contents spill out.`
`Khatam-al-kitab` conveys the meaning `The letter has been enclosed and sealed so that it is finally secured.`
`Khatama-`Ala-al-Qalb` means `The heart has been sealed so that it cannot perceive anything new nor can it forswear what it has already imbibed.`
`Khitamu-Kulli-Mashrubin` implies `the final taste that is left in the mouth when the drink is over.`
Katimatu Kulli Shaiinn `Aqibatuhu wa Akhiratuhu means ``The end in the case of everything denotes its doom and ultimate finish.``
Khatm-ul-Shaii Balagha Akhirahu conveys the sense, ``To end a thing means to carry it to its ultimate limit.``
The term Khatam-i-Qur`an is used in the similar sense and the closing verses of Qur`anic Surahs are referred to as Khawatim.
Khatim-ul-Qaum Akhirhuum means ``The last man in the tribe.``
(Refer to Lisan-ul-`Arab; Qamus and Aqrab-ul- Muwarid).
For this reason all linguists and commentators agree that Khatam-ul-Nabiyyin means `The Last in the line of Prophets.`
Now Sir, I would like a pointwise rebuttal of my previous posting and this one.
I will also write on 4 more issues later
1. Rebuttal of ur misinterpretation of Quranic Verses
2. Finality in the light of Hadith
3. Finality in the light of Ijmah of Sahaba
4. Mirza and His followers beleifs about ordinary muslims
May Allahs Blessings be on the beleivers
Adnan
First of all u always avoid the issues. Instead of answering my posting pointwise u posed some questions (of ur earlier posting).
I will do so in steps
Furthermore u did not answer my question ``Do Mr. Mirza, His Khulufa, and his followers consider the rest of the muslims to be non-muslims?``
Anyways I m answering ur post pointwise, i expect a similar answer from ur side.
Posting One From The Quran
MEANING OF KHATIM UN NABIYYIN:
For 1300 yrs ALL muslim scholars were clear on the meaning of ``Khatim un nabiyyin``
Lets look at the verse of the Quran:
``O people ! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Apostle of God and the last in the line of Prophets. And God is Aware of everything.`` (Surah Al Ahzab: 40)
Khatim Un Nabiyyin = Last in the line of Prophets
U object to this translation.
Look at the context. Quran is discussing the marriage of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to Hadrat Zainab (RA).
Hypocrites argued that Zainab was the wife of an adopted son of the Holy Prophet and by this connection she stood in the position of the Prophet`s daughter in-law.
In the first place, they had charged ``You have taken your daughter-in-law as wife, in contravention of your own law that the wife of a son is forbidden to his father.``
In refutation of this charge it was affirmed by the Almighty:
``Muhammad had no sons among ye men...``
thereby making absolutely clear that the man whose divorced wife was taken into wedlock by the Prophet being not his real son; the act, therefore did not imply violation of it.
The argument of their second charge ran thus:
``Admitted that the adopted son is not the real one, and on that basis a father might lawfully marry the divorced spouse of his adopted son, but where was the compulsion for the Prophet to do so?``
Allah affirmed in answer to this charge:
``But, verily, he is the Apostle of Allah``.
The implication is that it was Allah`s mandate to the Holy Prophet to wipe out all prejudices and declare all taboos that pagan custom had unnecessarily imposed upon the people, as lawful. In this respect the Prophet`s action was unequivocal and left no room for doubt.
But could not this duty be performed by another Prophet in the yrs to come? why MUST Prophet Muhammad (SAW) be the one to do this?
In order to lay particular emphasis upon this point Allah observes: (Khatim Al-Nabbiyeen)
``And he is the last in the line of Prophets,``
This is the context in which the phrase appears.
The Dictionary Meaning of the Word `Khatam-al-Nabiyyin`
Futhermore tt is not only the context that supports this interpretation but also the lexicography.
(This from my former posting)
According to Arabic lexicon and the linguistic usage Khatam means to affix seal; to close, to come to an end; and to carry something to its ultimate end.
Khatama al-`Amala is equivalent to `Faragha min al-`Almali` which means `to get over with the task.`
`Khatama al-Ina` bears the meaning `The vessel has been closed and sealed so that nothing can go into it, nor can its contents spill out.`
`Khatam-al-kitab` conveys the meaning `The letter has been enclosed and sealed so that it is finally secured.`
`Khatama-`Ala-al-Qalb` means `The heart has been sealed so that it cannot perceive anything new nor can it forswear what it has already imbibed.`
`Khitamu-Kulli-Mashrubin` implies `the final taste that is left in the mouth when the drink is over.`
Katimatu Kulli Shaiinn `Aqibatuhu wa Akhiratuhu means ``The end in the case of everything denotes its doom and ultimate finish.``
Khatm-ul-Shaii Balagha Akhirahu conveys the sense, ``To end a thing means to carry it to its ultimate limit.``
The term Khatam-i-Qur`an is used in the similar sense and the closing verses of Qur`anic Surahs are referred to as Khawatim.
Khatim-ul-Qaum Akhirhuum means ``The last man in the tribe.``
(Refer to Lisan-ul-`Arab; Qamus and Aqrab-ul- Muwarid).
For this reason all linguists and commentators agree that Khatam-ul-Nabiyyin means `The Last in the line of Prophets.`
Now Sir, I would like a pointwise rebuttal of my previous posting and this one.
I will also write on 4 more issues later
1. Rebuttal of ur misinterpretation of Quranic Verses
2. Finality in the light of Hadith
3. Finality in the light of Ijmah of Sahaba
4. Mirza and His followers beleifs about ordinary muslims
May Allahs Blessings be on the beleivers
Adnan
#569 Posted by lubna on February 13, 2001 8:09:40 pm
Folks, really sorry to disturb the heartwarming serenity on this thread..... Just need to pass these messages on to a couple of individuals here...
Jay! You`re back!! :)) And, for your own sake, great timing too... We were just preparing to exorcize Urstruly (live via satellite) and I`m sure you wouldn`t have wanted all those people watching you get beaten outta him by a maulvi.
SO glad to have you back though. And I can see you`re diligently at it again. That`s the spirit! Man, you were really missed. Alone, Urstruly just wasn`t good enough - y`know what I mean? The more the merrier.
Shankar #549:
You can`t hate me! At least on this day you shouldn`t! :( (It`s already Valentine`s where I am.) And anyway, the right to hate me is lovingly bestowed upon only SPECIAL individuals by none other than yours truly herself - when she`s in a generous mood that is. And that too only after they pass a very painful - literally - selection process. You`re not that special. At least not yet.....
Jay! You`re back!! :)) And, for your own sake, great timing too... We were just preparing to exorcize Urstruly (live via satellite) and I`m sure you wouldn`t have wanted all those people watching you get beaten outta him by a maulvi.
SO glad to have you back though. And I can see you`re diligently at it again. That`s the spirit! Man, you were really missed. Alone, Urstruly just wasn`t good enough - y`know what I mean? The more the merrier.
Shankar #549:
You can`t hate me! At least on this day you shouldn`t! :( (It`s already Valentine`s where I am.) And anyway, the right to hate me is lovingly bestowed upon only SPECIAL individuals by none other than yours truly herself - when she`s in a generous mood that is. And that too only after they pass a very painful - literally - selection process. You`re not that special. At least not yet.....
#568 Posted by farangi_kush on February 13, 2001 8:09:40 pm
PM & Jay:#553
Agreed a 100% with both you gentlemen.Somehow those who consider themselves `liberals` are simply more `fundamentalist` than the fundamentalist themselves.
If not,then why is there a such a great divide & of their treating the other side as `untouchables`.The simple reason is that this class was never trained to think,debate or argue.The mullah excels at this and these sheep are aware of their greater grasp & understanding of the grassroots affairs.
How can those at the helm have any brain training when they get everything done by snapping their fingers,cocking their guns,or fingering the phone.
Even the words they write or utter have never originated from their lips or pens.
So much for their ``abilities``.
I have had the `misfortune` to be in the company of such kind and I know why the farangies have a low opinion about us.
It is because these ones are with no honour & shame.They think that only their dress,drink & newsweek-literacy can earn them acceptability.
This is inn regards to Pakistan only.You take care of your side Jay.
Welcome Jay!
__________________________________________________
wassalaam
Agreed a 100% with both you gentlemen.Somehow those who consider themselves `liberals` are simply more `fundamentalist` than the fundamentalist themselves.
If not,then why is there a such a great divide & of their treating the other side as `untouchables`.The simple reason is that this class was never trained to think,debate or argue.The mullah excels at this and these sheep are aware of their greater grasp & understanding of the grassroots affairs.
How can those at the helm have any brain training when they get everything done by snapping their fingers,cocking their guns,or fingering the phone.
Even the words they write or utter have never originated from their lips or pens.
So much for their ``abilities``.
I have had the `misfortune` to be in the company of such kind and I know why the farangies have a low opinion about us.
It is because these ones are with no honour & shame.They think that only their dress,drink & newsweek-literacy can earn them acceptability.
This is inn regards to Pakistan only.You take care of your side Jay.
Welcome Jay!
__________________________________________________
wassalaam
#567 Posted by Naqshbandi on February 13, 2001 8:09:40 pm
YLH--your comment about Imam Abu Hanifa [rahmatullah alayhi] was disgusting. Is this the manners taught to you by liberalism and itaturkism?
* * * * * * *
Fairdinkum--i love hazrat ali karam allah wajhu as do all true sunnis. i love the ahle bayt e atHaar.
i have no problem with saying haydari-am, qalandar-am mastam//banda-i-murtaza ali hastam.
in our sunni mehfils we always say naara-e-haydari ``ya Ali!`` No sir, our differences with the rafidis are more to do with their slandering the OTHER sahaba and other things in their aqeedah and not to do with loving mawla-e-kainaat hazrat ali ibn abi talib radhi allah anhu. all the great sufis you mentioned were all sunnis. you can read that in any biographies on any of them. As Allah`s Habib alayhisalam said only a hypocrite would hate Hazrat Ali. So what is your point?
* * * * * * * * * * *
tahmed123--do you reject hadith altogether?
* * * * * * * * *
brother Amir --HT`s goals are noble but i have to disagree with the methodology. i went to ucl and i had many talks with them. unfortunately--and i hope i am wrong---i do not think the khalifa will return until Hazrat Imam Mahdi alayhisalam comes to earth. wallahu aalam.
* * * * * * *
i do not think the ulama should rule directly. they should be there to ensure the ruler does not
make any anti-shar`iah laws. as for the carrying of arms i disagree with that. alhamdulillah no ahle sunnat groups in pakistan carry arms [JUP, Dr.Tahirul Qadri`s group, Dawate Islami etc.] or cause violence so i have no problem with the govt cracking down on the wahaabi extremists who do. nor are they involved in sectarian killings. those are done by the sipah-e-sahaba etc. ALL deobandis.
* * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * *
Fairdinkum--i love hazrat ali karam allah wajhu as do all true sunnis. i love the ahle bayt e atHaar.
i have no problem with saying haydari-am, qalandar-am mastam//banda-i-murtaza ali hastam.
in our sunni mehfils we always say naara-e-haydari ``ya Ali!`` No sir, our differences with the rafidis are more to do with their slandering the OTHER sahaba and other things in their aqeedah and not to do with loving mawla-e-kainaat hazrat ali ibn abi talib radhi allah anhu. all the great sufis you mentioned were all sunnis. you can read that in any biographies on any of them. As Allah`s Habib alayhisalam said only a hypocrite would hate Hazrat Ali. So what is your point?
* * * * * * * * * * *
tahmed123--do you reject hadith altogether?
* * * * * * * * *
brother Amir --HT`s goals are noble but i have to disagree with the methodology. i went to ucl and i had many talks with them. unfortunately--and i hope i am wrong---i do not think the khalifa will return until Hazrat Imam Mahdi alayhisalam comes to earth. wallahu aalam.
* * * * * * *
i do not think the ulama should rule directly. they should be there to ensure the ruler does not
make any anti-shar`iah laws. as for the carrying of arms i disagree with that. alhamdulillah no ahle sunnat groups in pakistan carry arms [JUP, Dr.Tahirul Qadri`s group, Dawate Islami etc.] or cause violence so i have no problem with the govt cracking down on the wahaabi extremists who do. nor are they involved in sectarian killings. those are done by the sipah-e-sahaba etc. ALL deobandis.
* * * * * * * * * *
#566 Posted by farangi_kush on February 13, 2001 8:09:40 pm
PM & Jay:#553
Agreed a 100% with both you gentlemen.Somehow those who consider themselves `liberals` are simply more `fundamentalist` than the fundamentalist themselves.
If not,then why is their a such a great divide in their treating the other side as `untouchables`.The simple reason is that this class was never trained to think,debate or argue.The mullah excels at this and these sheep are aware of their greater grasp & understanding of the grassroots affairs.
How can those at the help have any brain training when they get everything done by snapping their fingers,cocking their guns,or fingering the phone.
Even the words they write or utter have never originated from their lips or pens.
So much for their ``abilities``.
I have had the `misfortune` to be in the company of such kind and I know why the farangies have a low opinion about us.
It is because of these are with no honour & shame.They think that only their dress,drink & newsweek-literacy can earn them acceptability.
This is inn regards to Pakistan only.You take care of your side Jay.
Welcome Jay!
__________________________________________________
wassalaam
Agreed a 100% with both you gentlemen.Somehow those who consider themselves `liberals` are simply more `fundamentalist` than the fundamentalist themselves.
If not,then why is their a such a great divide in their treating the other side as `untouchables`.The simple reason is that this class was never trained to think,debate or argue.The mullah excels at this and these sheep are aware of their greater grasp & understanding of the grassroots affairs.
How can those at the help have any brain training when they get everything done by snapping their fingers,cocking their guns,or fingering the phone.
Even the words they write or utter have never originated from their lips or pens.
So much for their ``abilities``.
I have had the `misfortune` to be in the company of such kind and I know why the farangies have a low opinion about us.
It is because of these are with no honour & shame.They think that only their dress,drink & newsweek-literacy can earn them acceptability.
This is inn regards to Pakistan only.You take care of your side Jay.
Welcome Jay!
__________________________________________________
wassalaam
#564 Posted by Zahra on February 13, 2001 6:21:25 pm
Yasser:
``Below is the repost of the post in question 422. Kindly point out how by using predominantly sunni school of thought, I become tied down to the four fanatical fiqhs? I had meant that I pray the sunni way... as opposed to the shiite way.``
See, there is a difference! The word, ``predominantly`` sounded very odd - it created some doubts![As if you have some hidden agenda that you wanted to promote]. Being a sunni myself, I never realized the orthodoxy of the different schools[fiqhs?]. I`d rather read the Holy Book and prayers of different buzurgs and prophets than investigating into the Imams. Laiken, I strongly believe, that one cannot/shouldn`t think of being disrespectful to any Imam[regardless of ones belief]Period!
Thanks for the clarification.
I think it`s time for Iqbal`s couplets -- I am surprised Mr. Kush never came up with the following:
``Below is the repost of the post in question 422. Kindly point out how by using predominantly sunni school of thought, I become tied down to the four fanatical fiqhs? I had meant that I pray the sunni way... as opposed to the shiite way.``
See, there is a difference! The word, ``predominantly`` sounded very odd - it created some doubts![As if you have some hidden agenda that you wanted to promote]. Being a sunni myself, I never realized the orthodoxy of the different schools[fiqhs?]. I`d rather read the Holy Book and prayers of different buzurgs and prophets than investigating into the Imams. Laiken, I strongly believe, that one cannot/shouldn`t think of being disrespectful to any Imam[regardless of ones belief]Period!
Thanks for the clarification.
I think it`s time for Iqbal`s couplets -- I am surprised Mr. Kush never came up with the following:
#563 Posted by sattar2 on February 13, 2001 5:05:17 pm
Re tahmed Sahib (#508):
Thanks for your accommodating comments regarding “difference in prophets”. As it turns out, this is not a side issue for Ahmadi-Muslims, but lays some of the “logic-based” groundwork in explaining the need for future prophets to follow in the foot steps of the Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).
The interpretation of “Khattam-un-Nabiyeen” verse (Quran 33:40) is a related topic. It seems that you agree that the translation of the Arabic word “Khattam” is that of “Seal” in English. The issue now is that of “interpretation” of this particular word. I posted explanation of Ahmadi-Muslim interpretation of this verse in the Reply section of one of the articles. The link to the article is:
www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?omirza_sep1200
This particular article got some 200+ responses. In reply #197 I tried to support my arguments on the basis of some logical reasoning, and also Quranic verses and hadith. If interested, do review this reply. If possible, do share some of your thoughts with me when you get a chance. This would be much appreciated.
Best regards.
Re Adnan Sahib (#504):
We should distinguish between “translation” and “interpretation” when discussing the Khattam-un-Nabiyeen issue [Quran (33:40)] (or any issue for that matter). We Ahmadi-Muslims believe every single word of Quran to be true and ever-lasting. There remains differences in interpretation of some verses between Ahmadi-Muslima and mainstream Muslims. You and the “ullema” may be going over-board in declaring others, who differ from you in their “interpretation” of some Quranic verses, as non-Muslims. Actually this matter altogether is best left between Allah Almighty and the individual involved.
As far as concensus among the clergy is concerned, we should bear in mind that for the longest time christian clergy also had concensus that the earth is flat. There was also concensus among the jewish clergy that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was in imposter, committed blasphemy, and should be rightfully crucified. Muslim ullema are not immune from falling into the same pitfalls of misinterpretting the scriptures. My intention of raising these issues is not to completely discredit the “ullema” but to raise a flag, that the ullema can indeed be incorrect in their understanding!
The above-mentioned link will take you to my earlier explanation of the “Khattam-un-Nabiyeen” verse. This was a somewhat lengthy response, and hence I would not like to repost that earlier reply. If interested, please review it. “Thoughtful” comments would be appreciated.
Best ragards,
Asad Sattar
Thanks for your accommodating comments regarding “difference in prophets”. As it turns out, this is not a side issue for Ahmadi-Muslims, but lays some of the “logic-based” groundwork in explaining the need for future prophets to follow in the foot steps of the Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).
The interpretation of “Khattam-un-Nabiyeen” verse (Quran 33:40) is a related topic. It seems that you agree that the translation of the Arabic word “Khattam” is that of “Seal” in English. The issue now is that of “interpretation” of this particular word. I posted explanation of Ahmadi-Muslim interpretation of this verse in the Reply section of one of the articles. The link to the article is:
www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?omirza_sep1200
This particular article got some 200+ responses. In reply #197 I tried to support my arguments on the basis of some logical reasoning, and also Quranic verses and hadith. If interested, do review this reply. If possible, do share some of your thoughts with me when you get a chance. This would be much appreciated.
Best regards.
Re Adnan Sahib (#504):
We should distinguish between “translation” and “interpretation” when discussing the Khattam-un-Nabiyeen issue [Quran (33:40)] (or any issue for that matter). We Ahmadi-Muslims believe every single word of Quran to be true and ever-lasting. There remains differences in interpretation of some verses between Ahmadi-Muslima and mainstream Muslims. You and the “ullema” may be going over-board in declaring others, who differ from you in their “interpretation” of some Quranic verses, as non-Muslims. Actually this matter altogether is best left between Allah Almighty and the individual involved.
As far as concensus among the clergy is concerned, we should bear in mind that for the longest time christian clergy also had concensus that the earth is flat. There was also concensus among the jewish clergy that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was in imposter, committed blasphemy, and should be rightfully crucified. Muslim ullema are not immune from falling into the same pitfalls of misinterpretting the scriptures. My intention of raising these issues is not to completely discredit the “ullema” but to raise a flag, that the ullema can indeed be incorrect in their understanding!
The above-mentioned link will take you to my earlier explanation of the “Khattam-un-Nabiyeen” verse. This was a somewhat lengthy response, and hence I would not like to repost that earlier reply. If interested, please review it. “Thoughtful” comments would be appreciated.
Best ragards,
Asad Sattar
#562 Posted by ylh on February 13, 2001 5:05:17 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen, I must categorically declare that those who continue to occupy themselves with the chimera of Khilafat, and thereby mislead the Muslims are nothing but the enemies of Muslims. They are ignorant or blind men or women who
attach hopes to such jugglery.
Is it from the love of our faith that such people as Barrister Amir all the members of Hzb e Tahrir are working with so much bitterness? Is the aim of those working so energetically against
us, sheltering themselves under the word ``ISLAM`` but who use such murderous attempts and gangs of brigands and support terrorists? Is this aim of destroying Modern Progressive Islam a Holy one? Indeed to believe this would mean that we are
possessed of unmitigated ignorance and boundless blindness.
From now onwards it will not be so easy to suppose that Muslims would have fallen to such a low level as to continue to abuse the purity of the conscience and the tenderness of the sentiments of the Muslims to criminal aims.
Pakistan Zindabad
Quaid e Azam Zindabad
Ataturk Zindabad
Jiye Bhutto
#561 Posted by ylh on February 13, 2001 5:05:17 pm
Zahra
Below is the repost of the post in question 422. Kindly point out how by using predominantly sunni school of thought, I become tied down to the four fanatical fiqhs? I had meant that I pray the sunni way... as opposed to the shiite way.
Fools like Adnan are a dime a dozen amongst Muslims.... the real
cause of the downfall of the Islamic civilization.
Adnan, I am a Muslim following predominantly the sunni school of
thought, and I dont think Ahmadis are kafir...
1) You havent tried to understand their point of view
2) Allah`s rasool said anyone who says the kalima
``There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger`` is a
Muslim. Last time I checked Ahmadis do this.
3) Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan,
declared that Ahmadis were Muslims .. so they were ok...
because in Pakistan we will follow Mr Jinnah`s words!
#560 Posted by Zahra on February 13, 2001 1:23:45 pm
Yasser:
I will agree with Adnan`s thoughts on your Sunni Logic. In fact, I also found your point really bizarre! At first, you very hesitantly brought up that you believe in Sunni School of thought[Kind of Murtae` Kyaa Naa Kurtae`]and then tried to add other perspectives.[In fact your verbiage was really odd]I hope you have not been reading Info Times lately - the emotional letter on various sects in Pakistan and what they should mean???
Lastly, I hope you got the pun in the verse by Iqbal. I just brought up an idea that exists in black and white. Simple!
PS: Why has everyone started talking in a strange language - Madhab? What is that?
Krashid:
Just a clarification:I am trying to gather some information on a medicine related question -- kind of survey thing.It`s a random survey, that`s why I asked you to send me your email address. Rest assured, it is a harmless question :-)!Only an opinion will be needed. I hope it won`t be a problem.
Take Care
I will agree with Adnan`s thoughts on your Sunni Logic. In fact, I also found your point really bizarre! At first, you very hesitantly brought up that you believe in Sunni School of thought[Kind of Murtae` Kyaa Naa Kurtae`]and then tried to add other perspectives.[In fact your verbiage was really odd]I hope you have not been reading Info Times lately - the emotional letter on various sects in Pakistan and what they should mean???
Lastly, I hope you got the pun in the verse by Iqbal. I just brought up an idea that exists in black and white. Simple!
PS: Why has everyone started talking in a strange language - Madhab? What is that?
Krashid:
Just a clarification:I am trying to gather some information on a medicine related question -- kind of survey thing.It`s a random survey, that`s why I asked you to send me your email address. Rest assured, it is a harmless question :-)!Only an opinion will be needed. I hope it won`t be a problem.
Take Care
#559 Posted by tahmed321 on February 13, 2001 1:19:53 pm
Pervez #550 ``Would somebody please throw some light on the authancity of Hadith and Sunnah? I have recently bought a book of Hadiths [mostly by Abu Harira] and every fourth or fifthe is in conflict with another. What should I do?``
Did you buy these books based on what you read in the Quran, or based on the advice of someone? If you are confident that you have studied and understood the message of the Quran, then you would not be confused by these books - you would see them for what they are.
It is a great tragedy that we muslims pay so little attention to the Quran, and confuse ourselves by looking right and left to other people for instruction. The message of the Quran is simple and clear. It is easy to follow for a man of character, hard to follow for others - but those who follow it cannot fail to succeed in this world (this is my personal opinion) and on the Judgement Day (from all indications in the Quran). You will find how vast the gap is between the Quran and generally accepted concepts and cultural mores in Pakistan and indeed among muslims from all countries. If you have the courage to read the Quran with an open mind, I promise you that if you are a decent human being and are (like myself) disheartened by the behavior of those who seek to use Islam to make a living or a career, then you will truly rejoice in reading it. And you will understand why Allah tells the Holy Prophet that he is a Warner and also a Bearer of Good Tidings. The Quran is a wonderful gift of Allah for us muslims. It is our misfortune that we either run away from it, or else treat it like a magical talisman that is to be read without understanding. The Quran will appeal to people with all levels of knowledge - the simple farmer or other layman who can nevertheless tell the difference between good and evil (who will find strength and direction to deal with the confusion in todays muslim world) and the physicist or archaeologist (who will find glimpses of eternity in it that merge beautifully with what we are finding in the frontiers of science today).
Did you buy these books based on what you read in the Quran, or based on the advice of someone? If you are confident that you have studied and understood the message of the Quran, then you would not be confused by these books - you would see them for what they are.
It is a great tragedy that we muslims pay so little attention to the Quran, and confuse ourselves by looking right and left to other people for instruction. The message of the Quran is simple and clear. It is easy to follow for a man of character, hard to follow for others - but those who follow it cannot fail to succeed in this world (this is my personal opinion) and on the Judgement Day (from all indications in the Quran). You will find how vast the gap is between the Quran and generally accepted concepts and cultural mores in Pakistan and indeed among muslims from all countries. If you have the courage to read the Quran with an open mind, I promise you that if you are a decent human being and are (like myself) disheartened by the behavior of those who seek to use Islam to make a living or a career, then you will truly rejoice in reading it. And you will understand why Allah tells the Holy Prophet that he is a Warner and also a Bearer of Good Tidings. The Quran is a wonderful gift of Allah for us muslims. It is our misfortune that we either run away from it, or else treat it like a magical talisman that is to be read without understanding. The Quran will appeal to people with all levels of knowledge - the simple farmer or other layman who can nevertheless tell the difference between good and evil (who will find strength and direction to deal with the confusion in todays muslim world) and the physicist or archaeologist (who will find glimpses of eternity in it that merge beautifully with what we are finding in the frontiers of science today).
#558 Posted by Barrister Amir on February 13, 2001 1:19:53 pm
Reply #: 505
tahmed321
dear Ahmed and all other fellow muslim borthers and sisters
Assalamu Aliakum
dear Ahmed i humbly apologise for the delay in responding to your questions on the postings i made on earthquakes.
i have been considerably busy over the last week, and will be so for the remainder of this week.
i have many commitments outside the cyber domain. and i am sure you understand, that some of these at times take priority.
in the last week, i with a number of other members of Hizb ut-Tahrir partipated in a panel discussion and conference to a packed out audience of muslim intlectuals and proffesionals at the university college london. where the subject of discussion was pakistan and shairia. and how islam is applicable for all times. and implementable in Pakistan.
the guest panalists includined Mr Farhan Bokhari the british Financial times correspondnat for Pakistan. and Mr Niazi the editor of the Jang Newspaper.
all those interested in this panel discussion will shortly be able to download and view it from
www.khilafah.com
i have during this time attempted to answer all the questions raised on the revival of the muslim ummah on this forum.
and have attempted a systematic approach, via responding to the postings i have made on several sections of this forum.
i responded to democracy breifly.
and did not respond to your honourable questions. as i was limited for time and wished to give them the time and consideration they rightly deserved.
please accept my humble apologies for the delay in repling to them.
inshallah i will respond to them within a week
further on your comment on democracy
it is clearly haram as democracy is ``the rule of the people for the people by the people``
in islam Allah is sovereign and defines the rule(law). however insan has choice to choose and elect the administrator of the sharia namely the khalifah.
and there are numerous methods of accounting him defined in the sharia.
please kindly read my previous posts on this matter. with the evidences provided.
yours humbly
Ahmer Sajid.
PS. fellow muslims let us be patient, and praise Allah. sadly there are many misguided muslims today. who have been stung by the doctrinal influx of non islamic philosophy. only through discussing with them, the strength of the islamic intelectual basis can we revive them once more.
there is hope in them all. hence let us discuss on an intelectual basis. devoid of slandering or abusing them.
Mohhamed saws is narrated to have said in one hadith
``there is good in me and my ummah until the last day``
i seek the goodness in all muslims.
and i pray that those misguided can be guided to islam to. the method to do this is to intlectually convince them of its basis.
further i do not call muslims munafiq. as only Allah knows what is in there hearts. we can only judge there actions and not the concealed thoughts in their hearts.
they like many before them can be won by through the intelectual basis and strength of islam.
which thoughout history has won the hearts and minds of millions.
tahmed321
dear Ahmed and all other fellow muslim borthers and sisters
Assalamu Aliakum
dear Ahmed i humbly apologise for the delay in responding to your questions on the postings i made on earthquakes.
i have been considerably busy over the last week, and will be so for the remainder of this week.
i have many commitments outside the cyber domain. and i am sure you understand, that some of these at times take priority.
in the last week, i with a number of other members of Hizb ut-Tahrir partipated in a panel discussion and conference to a packed out audience of muslim intlectuals and proffesionals at the university college london. where the subject of discussion was pakistan and shairia. and how islam is applicable for all times. and implementable in Pakistan.
the guest panalists includined Mr Farhan Bokhari the british Financial times correspondnat for Pakistan. and Mr Niazi the editor of the Jang Newspaper.
all those interested in this panel discussion will shortly be able to download and view it from
www.khilafah.com
i have during this time attempted to answer all the questions raised on the revival of the muslim ummah on this forum.
and have attempted a systematic approach, via responding to the postings i have made on several sections of this forum.
i responded to democracy breifly.
and did not respond to your honourable questions. as i was limited for time and wished to give them the time and consideration they rightly deserved.
please accept my humble apologies for the delay in repling to them.
inshallah i will respond to them within a week
further on your comment on democracy
it is clearly haram as democracy is ``the rule of the people for the people by the people``
in islam Allah is sovereign and defines the rule(law). however insan has choice to choose and elect the administrator of the sharia namely the khalifah.
and there are numerous methods of accounting him defined in the sharia.
please kindly read my previous posts on this matter. with the evidences provided.
yours humbly
Ahmer Sajid.
PS. fellow muslims let us be patient, and praise Allah. sadly there are many misguided muslims today. who have been stung by the doctrinal influx of non islamic philosophy. only through discussing with them, the strength of the islamic intelectual basis can we revive them once more.
there is hope in them all. hence let us discuss on an intelectual basis. devoid of slandering or abusing them.
Mohhamed saws is narrated to have said in one hadith
``there is good in me and my ummah until the last day``
i seek the goodness in all muslims.
and i pray that those misguided can be guided to islam to. the method to do this is to intlectually convince them of its basis.
further i do not call muslims munafiq. as only Allah knows what is in there hearts. we can only judge there actions and not the concealed thoughts in their hearts.
they like many before them can be won by through the intelectual basis and strength of islam.
which thoughout history has won the hearts and minds of millions.