What Constitutes Blasphemy?

BEARD AND BLASPHEMY

A third rate news paper was burnt down by the average pakistani, what a tragedy, a special news item by `chowk`. What a terrible thing to have happened. The religious scholars ranging fron urstruly to the gods own asif are debating, what constitutes blasphemy. Bilal to krashid are wondering about the interpretations of the book. Hear..hear my dear friends, in the burning of the news paper office there is no blasphemy issue, it is the same old mob mentality, there is no scope for great discussions.

There was an issue some time back, a non muslim was arrested and is being prosecuted in pakistan under blasphemy laws for making fun of the beard of a muslim. It was in an article by asma jahangir, i posted it twice to elicit the views of the allegedly scholarly pakistanis on the chowk. It was a case of the pak institutions, with the sheria court at the apex, interprting blasphemy, and no one, wanted to talk about it. It would have been a case of the institutional reality of pakistan, it would be inviting the wrath of the ISI and the mullahs and the sheria courts.

This case of burning of a neews paper office is worth discussing, it is a psuedo topic, it is not about the reality. It is sofistry.

A kafir being prosecuted, what ever be the reason, what is there to talk about, it is the k-for kafir from the unconcious, the curriculum that requires the identification of the hindus that blocks any discussion about the blasphemy laws in a case where the authorities are using it to prosecute a kafir. Mob violence, let us talk about blasphemy laws as if the mobs were guided by the sheria courts.

Interesting lines from Musharraf`s interview with Newsweek. Looks like some major decisions have been made regarding the influence of extremist religious parties within Pakistan. I am waiting to see what the human rights organizations say when the govt. starts going after these organizations in an extra-judicial manner, a la Ataturk. I am also waiting to see what the Chowk contributors, who had been hoping the govt. would take such actions, will say:

When asked about the rise of extremists groups in the country, Gen Musharraf told the magazine: ``Ninety per cent of the people in this country are moderate and tolerant. The extremists only constitute about five or 10 per cent of the population. They are not a serious threat to this government or to stability. They are an irritant.

``Pakistan is a moderate Muslim state. I`m a Muslim. [Gesturing at a general on a nearby couch] He is a Muslim. He may pray five times a day, and I may have a different approach, but the voices of the moderates are not heard. We have to let these voices be heard.

``We haven`t taken on these [extremist] groups head-on. We could have a shoot-out, but that is not our strategy. I do not want to be distracted from our main goals of restructuring Pakistan`s economy.`` (DAWN, Pakistan quoting Newsweek)

Musharraf is actually a gora from the drinking and partying group of the military. He is also a member of the SSG (Commando), the most carefree (and brave) group of people (that I have ever come across). The ideal combination for a liberal. Quite a bit more liberal than the liberals on this site, in my opinion. I am glad he didn`t try to force his liberalism down the throat of Pakistan. There would have been a severe backlash.

However, now I think he is really fed-up with the Mullahs. He was busy trying to get some traction before taking them on, both within Pakistan and in Kashmir. After the IMF tranche(s), Hubco, the flight of Nawaz Sharif, and the pressure on India to talk, I think he feels his govt. is now ready for the showdown.

Musharraf`s statements combined with Moin`s (not the cricketer, but the minister) statements indicate that something`s going down. I made a (correct, if I may indulge in some self-congratulatory remarks) prediction, a month or so before the event, regarding the current peace and counter-peace moves between India and Pakistan. I am going to make another one; the Mullah-Govt. showdown that is about to happen.

Just remember, you heard it first here on Radio UMAIRR :)

Asif Nnaqshbandi:#500

Janaab Naqshbandi sahib:

The only identity is Muslim(Yours & mine).It would help you tremendously not to embellish so much that the lily gets gilted.

The way you describe yourself it seems to me like you are Pizza or a Burger order{``with the works``}.

Please get over this nonsense forthwith.

Why do I have to bring forth my religion to a non-muslim unless the occasion demands or I`m explicitly asked/questioned.Similarly,no one is interested in your `mazhab`(which literally just means route)

and you do not have to become a cheer-leader for it.

__________________________________________________

wassalaam

Sameer JB #514

Barrister Amir.

ahmadb:

The Prophet (SAW) did award death to some poets who use to insult him and Islam.

adnan

ylh:

Answer the questions i raised in #472.

Dont evade the issues or simply concede that u r not interested in any discussion.

adnan

Reply #: 491

FARANGI_KUSH

AOA

What we must do is keep the discussion rational and logical. No name calling, these ppl. will expose their shallow ideas whn they run out of arguments, which usually is very soon

wassalaam

adnan

tahmad #486

AOA

Thank you for a very clear posting.

I did not ignore the other 3 verses i just took 3 as an example of the fallacy in ur argument as i see it.

Well how can u explain that while discussing the events of Uhad Allah suddenly make a sweeping statement abt the role of Prohets (this is what i meant when I said u were quoting out of context)

In a day or two, I will post a my understanding in detail taking up each one of these verses which remains the same and why I think u r wrong.

Again if u want a logical argument why threaten ppl. with hell fire etc. this weakens ur stand. Lets stick to the facts no threats. ok.

Btw till now i appreciated ur clean and clear style, pl. keep it like that.

wassalaam

adnan

fairdinkum #479

AOA

I do not believe democracy is haram.

But to be very fair this notion is less hilarious than many ``interpretations`` of Islam posted here everyday.

Barrister Sahib has a rt to have his own opinion, I respect that, specially since he has put forward an argument (in my view fallicious) but his belief has some basis.

adnan

ahmadb:

AOA

My friend u r right.

Even ``Mullahs`` like me believe that it is time for some serious ijtihad by ppl. well versed in the knowledge of religion.

But serious debate on any issue is not tolerated in our society.

Look at the postings on chowk, barring a few the so called ``moderate`` and secular elements stoop down to the level the mullah is accused of everyday.

Logic and rationality shd carry the day, but whn thse #$@#@# run out of arguments well u can see for urself.

I may not agree with u or tahmad on fundamental issues but at least u debate a point like a civilized person.

wassalaam

adnan

Interior Minister Mr. Haider has thrown down the gauntlet. Recent tough talk by Mr. Haider regarding cracking down on extremists and jehadists in Pakistan is to be welcomed. It remains to be seen if it will backed up with action, or will remain empty rhetoric (remember, the ban on display of weapons before?). If Mr. Haider succeeds, and all my wishes are with him, it will represent a ray of hope for a moderate Pakistan. If it does not, then the jehadists will be emboldened like never before, and Pakistan (as we know it) is doomed. The challenge is tremendous. A failure at this stage, may invite the jehadists exerting their supremacy over Paksitan`s polity sooner than one would have expected before the announcement.

Pakistan now needs India`s support more than ever before and Mr. Vajpayee should trust Mr. Musharraf`s intentions, while verifying that jehadists are indeed cooling it in Kashmir. This challenge to the jehadists by the Musharraf regime may prove to be a defining moment in Paksitan`s history. The stakes are very high. If Mr. Musharraf succeeds, he will emerge as Pakistan`s savior and surely the best leader it has had since Independence. If he fails, then more than Mr. Musharraf`s place in history will be at stake. This is going to be an epic struggle -- and Mr. Musharraf may need India`s support in some shape or form. It is no time for petty politics -- India should recognize that Mr. Musharraf has taken a meaningful first step (albeit it is too early to determine if it will have a meaningful effect on the streets of Srinagar), and that he should not be cast as having capitulated to Indian `demands`. New Delhi will have to be creative in responding to Mr. Musharraf`s initiative -- strengthening him domestically, while scrupulously keeping its fingers out of Pakistan`s internal affairs, not being a catalyst for creating divisions in Pakistan`s fragile society, and not appear to be taking `advantage` of Pakistan`s predicament. If the General is able to successfully follow through on this initiative, he will have earned the respect of many sane minds on both sides of the border in the Subcontinent.

ylh:

THE CONFUSED STATE OF MIND OF OUR FRIEND ylh

Our friend wrote:

ylh#422

Adnan, I am a Muslim following predominantly the sunni school of thought, and I dont think Ahmadis are kafir...

Then......

To hell with the sunni Madhab, I believe in the Islam brought down by Muhammad....

And Finally:

That you have resorted to lying is just sad... when did I mention Sunni Madhab...

And thats not all this fellow is still writing post after post, ylh do u need a shrink or wht.

I REST MY CASE FELLOW CHOWKIANS

Adnan

Adnan 672# 472

Your point 3 is show me the Kalma in Quran.

Are you serious.

Are you Muslim or Jamati.

Adnan 672#

In your list of tyrant, you mentined Ayub Khan and Bhutto.

You clearly skipped Yahya Khan if you are covering the period from Ayub to Bhutto.

Does it mean that Jamat still believes Yahya Khan as Mard-e-Momin or that award given to him by Jamat-e-Islami is no longer valid.

Bhai Apni Hi Bolte Rahe Go. Kabhi To Sawal Ka Jawab De Diya Karo.

Aur Apne Islam Ki idhar Ziada Na Choro. Sub disco jamation ko acchi tarah jante hain.

Tumhare Islam Ko to Binnori Town Mein Bhi Koi Nahin Poochta.

Pehle Apnaa Islamic credential Le Kur Aao. Phir Baat Karo. Varna Ek Ram Doosra Rahim Kehta Hai. Kartoot Dono Ke Eik Hain.

krashid#471

I do not have the time to teach u religion.

However all the questions u asked have been very properly answered by scholars. I give u a reading list:

1. Shia origin and Faith Kashif Al Ghita

2. Shi`ism Syed Hossain Nasr

They will explain the Shia pt. of view

Read them then i`ll list the sunni scholars` work.

But i have a gut feeling that u DO NOT WANT to know.

the prophet did award the punishment of rijm.

u can read any good history of islam.

adnan

krashid

Although ur prior posting indicates the shallowness of ur knowledge and a confused state of mind, Ill reply to the jamaat questions

1. Al Badr and Al Shams were there to defend the homeland, I have met ppl. who fought in the marshes long after the army had surrendered. They were not fighting a proxy war but as i said they had there own motive.

2. I was a member of IJT for 6 yrs. We would never do that, given mistakes are made by students but many are forced upon us, IJT is the only student group left in Pakistan. I have personally opposed Jamaats point of veiw on many occasions within IJT.

3. I hope whn u r arrested u will have enough trust in our judicial system. Are not the Justice Qayyum tapes evidence enough of the state of our judiciary.

U my friend argue for the sake of argument, so u can never learn nor teach anything.

adnan