What Constitutes Blasphemy?

In response to Adnan_672 (Reply # 473)
Dear Adnan:

Your statement: “U see when i heard of chowk there were all these islam bashers patting each other on the back, criticizing the mullah, our islaafs without even having read them.”

My reply: In my view, the worst Islam-bashers are those who engage in all kinds of transgressions against other human beings in the name of Islam (as they understand it). The word Mullah is somewhat generic and often loosely used. For example, there was a Mullah Nasruddin in Iran whose jokes and witty remarks are well-known (Ziauddin Barni translated them from Persian into Urdu).

I distinguish between a Mullah and a Neem-Mullah. In Urdu we say, “Neem-Mullah Khatrah-e-Islam.” I think, it is this breed of people that most interactors on Chowk are reacting against.

There are many Chowkwallas, on both sides of the divide, that get carried away in making their point for/against a particular vision for society. Comments welcome.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

CRACKDOWN ON EXTREMISTS

In a letter to the editor, Amir Qureshi wrote from Birmingham, UK: “NOBODY can doubt nowadays that the Islamic fundamentalists have increased their role and influence now in all matters. The violence at the office of Frontier Post and the outbreak of lawlessness after the sectarian killings indeed, bode ill for the whole country. If nothing else it affects the image of Pakistan internationally. This event was taken by international investors as a sign that the government cannot after all provide protection from these extremists.

This is not good for the country. Recently at a dinner, one of the Pakistani lobbyists said that the failure of this bad image of Pakistan internationally is not a lobbying failure, it has more to do with the actual situation on the ground.

The government must organise a crackdown on all fundamentalist organizations. If the military government fails to do it then no democratic government can ever do it and then their influence will be unstoppable.

These organizations are also the cause of friction and hatred amongst Islamic sects and their narrow-minded approach to Islam and then their ultimate responsibility, as if bestowed upon them by God, of imposing their ideology and views on others is hurting Pakistan`s image abroad.

The military government needs to take some serious steps to stop these people from having any influence on the government” (Dawn, February 12, 2001).

Comment: This letter has diagnosed a problem and asked for governmental action (crackdown), but it fails to suggest the nature of crackdown. Should we discuss the kind of measures the government needs to take? In my view, all efforts to reform a society must be as peaceful as possible. Comments welcome.

Sincereyly, Bilal Ahmad

Adnan 672#

You flunked one million dollar question.

Now a two million dollar question for you.

You believe in Hadith. You also believe in Hadith narrated by Aisha RZAH.

Does it say anywhere in Quran or Hadith and its Islamic interpretation that evidence of two women is equal to one man except Hadrat Aisha RZAH.

Or you don`t believe in Hadith narrated by Aisha RZAH or you don`t believe it in the category of evidence.

P.S: There is no sarcasm here. Just trying to clarify my poor understanding of Islam.

AOA

Well if Mr. Jinnah ``indulged in a drink or two`` and there was sufficient evidence he certainly deserves the 80 lashes. Is that candid enough.

You see Mr. Jinnah was a leader, no doubt a man of many abilities but he had NO authority to change the commands of allah.

The problem with ur reasoning as i see it is that u beleive taht in islam state and religion are separate. Just read Islamic History ull find out otherwise. I strongly recommend ``Seerat un Nabi by Shibi & Suliman Nadwi``.

In an islamic state religion is no ones private affair. This is simply nonsense borrowed from the west.



I always request learned ppl. like urself to learn arabic, and simply go thru the quran.

As i have said before whn u put forward ``theories on religion`` either quote directl from the quran or from the works of authorities on the quran (for u this may mean Syed Ahmad Khan, Chiragh Ali, Ameer Ali, Pervaiz etc.)

My friend I can recall ppl of ur state of mind loving tyrants like bhutto, ayub, etc.

But I will not get down to this level. I want some serious discussion.

Adnan

re adnan

Hope you get your books in soon. Your recent reply to YLH brings up a thought. If you guys were in charge of public morals and personal piety in 1947, is it far fetched to say that the Quaid-e-Azam would have been declared a `murtad` (if not an outright kafir, whipped a hundred times, and run out of town?

No semantics please. It is well known that the Quaid did not believe in the artificial division of `madhabs`, was uncomfortable with public prayers, and did indulge in a drink or two.

This line of thinking is given added weight by the fact that all the obscurantist parties (JI, JUH, the `scholars` at Deoband) fought tooth and nail against Pakistan in 1946-47. In fact some mufti even issued a fatwa calling Mr Jinnah `kafir-e-azam`, right?

The issue, adnan, is not whether you can believe somebody to be non-Muslim or think that an adulterer should get a death by stoning. You have every right to believe in those things. It becomes a problem only when you want a government to impose these essentially religious edicts on society as a whole.

I am not sure why you dislike the Mard-e-Momin Hazrat Ziaul Haque bahadur. He was the engine that spun the Jamaat bigotry into concrete legislation. Heck, you guys should be congratulating him; after all he single handedly accomplished half the task of taking Pakistan to the seventh century! His boy NS and the other little ones have not gone farther yet though they keep trying

Reply #: 458

Asif Naqshbandi

Br. Asif

AOA

Why shd we interact, indeed a good pt.

U see whn i heard of chowk there were all these islam bashers patting each other on the back, criticizing the mullah, our islaafs without even having read them

Now, u explain things to them logically, some do reason with u, put forward their pt. of view, but most of them as they are ignorant simply start calling u names, this exposes their shallowness, to us and to themselves.

And btw some do like to carry out a logical, rational debate, so one shd just interact with them.

I do not agree with tahmad, but his postings provide a good debate on the issues.

Btw I am laso in a western uni. and most of the muslims here love the traditional islam not the western version of it.

Wassalaam

adnan

ylh#460

My Dear ylh

Although i could answer u in the same tone, but then i would be stooping to ur level.

You are a rather confused individual, to prove my point ill simply point out the fallacies in your posting(s)

1. You yourself brought up the issue of sunni madhab, not I.

2. The ``Islam you beleive in``, where does it come from, the Quran rt (as this is the book u claim to beleive in), well if it comes from the quran then wht verses do u accept, who gives u a criterion for accepting or rejecting these

3. Ah, the Kalima, pl quote the kalima from the quran, ill be much obliged.

4. U say u belive in Ijmah, well ijmah is on wht i posted not ur cooked up scheme (this by the definition of ijmah)

5. Ur Ahmadi muslims criterion pl quote the verses from the quran in its support.

6. u claim that for 1400 yrs the majority of the muslims have been mushrik! cos the madhabs have been followed as long. ur discovery of true islam then is indeed something. Good for u.

7. Finally i m rather sorry for the state of ur mind, u start quoting Mr. Jinnah in support of ur interpretation.

My friend u ask us not to quote the scholars and u quote Mr. Jinnah who btw never claimed any knowledge of religion.

I rest my case.

Mr. ylh u Sir are more bigoted than any mullah can ever be.

When u run out of arguments u curse.

This is the case with most of ur sort.

As for ur Islam if u do not beleive in one single verse then u are not a muslim, I will happily meet my Allah with this declaration.

May Allahs Blessings be on those who believe.

Adnan

Adnan 672#

You said that Islamic Laws are final. But there is only difference in detail. On Khums I don`t see that. What difference in detial are you talking about. It is like saying Shia believe in God and we don`t believe but still there is difference in detail.

How do you explain ``Mut`aa``. Does it mean that prophet PBUH sometimes acted against the laws of Islam to appease people.

You know of prophet`s saying that that ``Don`t write his Hadith``. And that is why Hadith were written many decades after the death of Prophet PBUH. In view of this what punishment would you suggest for slave. You know it is half of a free person and for free person it is clear. Were there any circumstances which led prophet PBUH to apply the law of Rijm.

The authentic version of last sermon of prophet PBUH only mentions that prophet PBUH is leaving behind Quran (and no mention of Hadith)

Did you have time to read Hadiths yourself or you directly read Mowdudi. It will be a good exercise to read it yourself to come out of your thoughts.

democracy is haram and contradicts islam. this is because Democracy confers the sovereignty to the people and entrusts them with the whole matter. Hence, people are the supreme reference in everything. According to the rules of democracy, people are the source of powers, thus the source of the legislative, the judicial and the executive powers. It is people who legislate the laws, appoint the judges and establish the rulers. This is contrary to Islam, which makes the sovereignty to Shari’ah not to people, hence the whole matter is to Shari’ah and it is the supreme reference in everything. As for the powers, Islam has made the legislative power to Allah (swt), not to people; hence, it is Allah (swt) alone Who legislates the rules in everything. Be it rituals, transactions, penalties or otherwise, and it is forbidden for anyone from among people to legislate, even one single rule. People in Islam have the authority, i.e. the rule, hence it is people who elect the ruler and appoint him. People are the source of the executive power only; they select the man who assumes the authority and the rule. As for the judiciary power, this is assumed by the Khalifah or whoever deputises for him in this. It is the Khalifah who appoints the judges and appoints he who appoints the judges, no person from among the people, individuals or groups alike have the competence to appoint a judge; this is rather restricted to the Khalifah and his deputy.

for more info visit www.khilafah.com.pk

democracy is haram and contradicts islam. this is because Democracy confers the sovereignty to the people and entrusts them with the whole matter. Hence, people are the supreme reference in everything. According to the rules of democracy, people are the source of powers, thus the source of the legislative, the judicial and the executive powers. It is people who legislate the laws, appoint the judges and establish the rulers. This is contrary to Islam, which makes the sovereignty to Shari’ah not to people, hence the whole matter is to Shari’ah and it is the supreme reference in everything. As for the powers, Islam has made the legislative power to Allah (swt), not to people; hence, it is Allah (swt) alone Who legislates the rules in everything. Be it rituals, transactions, penalties or otherwise, and it is forbidden for anyone from among people to legislate, even one single rule. People in Islam have the authority, i.e. the rule, hence it is people who elect the ruler and appoint him. People are the source of the executive power only; they select the man who assumes the authority and the rule. As for the judiciary power, this is assumed by the Khalifah or whoever deputises for him in this. It is the Khalifah who appoints the judges and appoints he who appoints the judges, no person from among the people, individuals or groups alike have the competence to appoint a judge; this is rather restricted to the Khalifah and his deputy.

Adnan 672 # 448.

Do you think it is name calling.

So let me put it in a milder way.

1- Why Jamat-e-Islami was a partner in genocide of Bengalis. Why did they support rapes, murders and torture of Bengali Muslims at the hands of rapist, smugglers etc. What has

islam to do with it.

2- Why did Jamiat workers in Karachi Univerisity openly threatened women of opposition party to take their clothes of if they continue with their political activities.

3- Why did Jamat-e-Islami and Jamiat ran a movement to acquit Saif-ud-din the Nazim of Jamiat in Karachi of murder charges. Is it Islamic to acquit a person with murder charges through street demonstration. (And if you don`t know Saif-ud-din let me know).

So can you answer these questions.

Or does it still falls into name calling.

Shankar#

Since you introduced yourself. Let me give some glimpse of my interaction with Hindus in Pakistan.

During my residency in Pakistan my Registrar was Murli Dhar, a fair skinned Brahman. Talks little and smiling and a very good person. I remember when we went for door to door during our medical college days and there was a Hindu girl. We went in evening at their house. She was dressed casually and later we commented about her good looks. There were other house officer and residents who were Hindu but we never saw them as queer or alien.

During my third year, a new batch from Tharpakar came. His name was Kailash. We had heated discussion in first few days regarding religion. But later everybody realized that we are in the same boat.

There was a ``Mushaira``. Everybody was appreciating the poetry of Ahmed Faraz (and he is good). A jamati from Interior Punjab was later telling Faraz is no poet (he was leftist) and a second category poet Sahba Akhtar was held in high esteem by him because his every verse ended with Pakistan`s glory.

Our 2nd rate English medium schools are producing people like me or worse. And Urdu medium produce the later generation of ``Slaves`` or workers in keeping with the teachings of Jamat-e-Islami Islam.

In response to sadna (Reply # 464)
Dear Sadhana:

You wrote: “ . . . Ejaz Haider argues that there is no role for western notions of democracy in the politics of Islam.``

My reply: For a few additional insights, please see:

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/08/22/iran.khatami.reut/

http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19970527/14750413.html

http://www.oup-usa.org/isbn/0195108167.html

http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/56.htm

http://www.islam-democracy.org/lectures.htm

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Harimau:

[I fully understood that you were transmitting a message from Saira Saeed.]
Thank God, I feel less burdened :)

[as indeed most women on earth do.]
Thanks for the acknowledgement! :)

[I would still want people of all faiths, and those of us who do not even have a belief in God, to reflect and introspect on those questions and seek answers in their hearts as to why we treat our womenfolk or allow them to be treated so badly.]

I had posted this on another forum and a candid response said, It is sad that people won`t let their daughters be treated badly, but won`t give a second thought before treating their wives in a brutal manner. Hypocrisy ? This raises another question that where do we draw the limit.

I am not sure if you`ve read the article posted by Ras Sidd in detail - the thoughts of an educated women in that article were very depressing and what she did to her life was equally sad. I mean, one cannot control what is written in ones fate (As my Abu says), but if you see the writings on the wall, then having the blinders on, does not help in any way or shape. It is disturbing to see that many women will jump into a ditch knowingly. The sickening stuff is when the family promotes the idea of ``hanging in`` there with the hope that the guy(a maniac) will change. Moreover, it is abhorrent that such women will think of having kids with their abusive husbands. What example is there for the kids? Mad Parents? I would also doubt the sanity of women involved in these episodes. They should get the hell out of such relationships or kick out the men, if they can.

PS: Young women like Sairah, are to be commended for their noble efforts -- it takes a lot of energy to provide emotional support to others. It ain`t everyone`s cup of tea!

SameerJB #450
Thanks for your references.
The current issue of The Friday Times also has
``Is there a political Islam? by Ejaz Haider
``.. Ejaz Haider argues that there is no role for western notions of democracy in the politics of Islam..``
Any comments or insights would be appreciated..

Sadhana

All Kafirs beware!!!!

(Koran 76: 4) ``Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers chains, yokes and a blazing fire.``

fuzair:#455

I really thank you for asking this,but i am sure there are more knowledgeable chowksters on such matters.

I cannot imagine that Allama Iqbal could have uttered such a thought for one simple reason.

None of his prose or poetry has ever said anything which is contrary to the teachings of our beloved Prophet(S) or the Quran.

The last sermon of the prophet very clearly enunciated the direction for the muslims and in paraphrased form it said that among you there is no arab or no non-arab,none has dominance/preference over the other,you are all muslims...etc etc.This last sermon is known to almost all muslims & many a times displayed in houses & stores.If you want I can reproduce it here for you & all.

This was a very radical & revolutionary concept introduced into a society at the time when the very basis of that society was tribal internecine glory seeking.

Just compare that to todays fight against racism in the west & the promotion of human rights by agencies.The aparthied system of South Africa & India can also be given as an example where it has been controlled through legislation and/or by punitive/incentive measures.In Islam it was just done by guidance & NOT by sharaii sanctions or punishment.

Do you not think it is almost miraculous!

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I am still tempted to quote a shair by Allama Iqbal somewhat related to this:

``Ajami khum hai tO kyaa,mai tO hijaazi hay miri

Naghmaa hindi hai tO kyaa,Laey tO hijaazi hai miri``

tr:So what if my cup is farsi,the drink is still from mecca

And if my song is in hindi,but my melody is still

from mecca.

P.S:If anyone recalls the lines fuzair is referring to,I would be obliged.

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fuziar:Most of the europeans who convert to Islam do not look,walk,or talk like arabs.An englishman/woman muslim never considers being an arab a sign of being muslim.Palestinian from the soil christains/muslims/jews in the rural areas are all semitic people(descendants of Sam--the son of Noah).

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wassalaam