What Constitutes Blasphemy?

I have a query to all you guys out there - here are some points/issues care to comment on them

(a)The Ameer of the Jama`at-i-Islami Pakistan recently appealed to the nine corps commanders of the Pakistan army to replace their chief. Since the army has always been hypersensitive about anyone trying to cause dissension within its ranks, lesser mortals are known to have simply disappeared from the face of the planet for saying much less.

(b)Maulana Akram Awan of the Tanzeem Al-Ikhwan

Pakistan recently threatened to carve out a separate state from whatever remains of the original Pakistan so that he could enforce ``complete shariah`` in his state. Of course, non-bearded, bare-headed souls would have been silenced for good for saying much less.

Any of the people supporting the religious ultra fundementalists when they went on a rampage against the FPost,, and are asking for an interest free state and the right of the ultra-fundemental religious set to express their violent views freely and supress others right care to comment on the above two points.

My guess is that they would not. They would obfuscate, prevaricate, and put up some many straw men around that pakistan would no be short of fuel for many a generation.

re. Krashid #100

``You and solitude just run away from discussion after putting your thoughts.

Let me remind you the discussion on a board where you told many things from Koran regarding Zaid and Prophet PBUH. When I responded you are away for last 3 days. Still finding your picktall.

So what is the your point of challenging when you already know that you have posted without any knowledge on hearsay.``

Mr. Rashid, I did not pursue the issue because I was not in the mood to pore through my books for the references to the ayat and/or sunnah. And I was actually taking a break from confrontationalism. But if you push me, I`ll oblige, and I promise you it won`t be pretty sight.

:) Trying a Urstruly there!

Thanks for the link to Dejavu.com Will try it out.

In the meanwhile, try and prepare a better defence than that ``ghulmans were prized for their beauty but not sexuality`` explanation you tried the last time.

rgds,

PM

further to my last post...

Krahsid, could you please explain what you mean by:

``And as far as, I am here. Please go to Pakistan on next flight and say something similar people will forget all Masih`s and you will be an example of intolerance in Pakistan`` ?

Thank you.

PM

RE: baykar patel # 115

[``islam needs to be brought out of the seventh century just as christianity reformed itself five centuries ago.``]

Ah....the bigot is back.

Are you still celebrating the firing of Farzana Versey? Fired more muslims recently?

People, dont let this imposter fool you with his fake concern for Islam. In his little fiefdom, muslims are fired when they express an opinion which is contrary to his own. After firing the poor sods, the bully then goes and gloats in public and probbly masterbates in private. What a loser.

[``i`m disappointed chowk has chosen not to publish the letter.``]

Why dont you publish it in your own rag you jackass?

I dont understand ``blasphemous material`` at all Is the religion too fragile to take critical comment....No wonder the muslims are still there where they started 1400 years ago..and for sure will continue to be there....this is how monarchy,and priesthood ship have survived ...since the early days of Islam....Some thing FAKE ABOUT THE WHOLE THING

re. fairdinkum #108

Dear S,

You write:

``The religious right of Pakistan (and much of the Muslim world for that matter) feels threatened at the moment and resorts to violence due to fear and insecurity... [due to] the aggressive marketing strategies of various multinationals, the onslaught of satellite TV etc., ``

I concur, though I would not necessarily link these understandable feelings of desperation with the exhibition of violence as witnessed in Peshawar, for reasons I have already mentioned. I still fail to understand how the immediate environs (family, mohalla) of these more reactionary (reactive?) elements are bring transformed by the media etc. enough for them to be driven to desperation. After all, these are the folks who can very well force their family`s -- and even neighbours - to not install satellite TV dishes, or watch televison at all.

It is the middle- and upper-middle class, folks like you and I, who are more affected by the onslaught of the capitalistic behemoths, because we exercise a greater measure of tolerance wrt to what those within our primiary circle of association are exposed to. It is these folks, who are unable/unwilling to exercise strict control over what their family watches, and forced to send their kids to schools where they will be exposed to undesireable influences-- it is these folks that have legitimate beef with the `onslaught of the Western media and consumerism` as you put it. Yet, these are not the folks out in the streets. These are the folks who will, like yourself, lament the dying tradtional values in society (while putting up that new satellite dish) :)

Fairdinkum, you continue...

``[This is a reaction to] the aggressive demands of various international funding organizations (basically US/West) to recognize and implement their way of looking at life… increasingly they are linking bailouts/funding etc. to not only economic reforms but to cultural and political reforms… Their insistence on recognizing western values, as the only legitimate values not matter what the circumstances of a nation, is causing much disharmony around the world. West uses “Human rights” are as a powerful tool to manipulate world politics in order to achieve THEIR political and economic aims and objects. Naturally, people resist… and in places like Pakistan people unfortunately resort to violence as their feelings of fear and insecurity are intensified by their lack of education, lack of a strong and wise political leadership, and various other factors.``

Now, it is true that the West/US links/bailouts to cultural reform (most notably as in China-- rather farcically there though).

However, I wonder if you you could point out some specific `demands` wrt cultural reforms that you regard as egregrious cultural imposition.. emphasis on `egregrious`.

If this discussion with Prof Bilal is to go anywhere, at some point you will have to talk specifics, lest it be reduce to some much of right-sounding left-wing rhetoric. What are some of the specific issues wrt imposition of culture?

We`ve alread agreed that satelite TV and the western/Indian films are undesrirable ... let`s now discuss which of the `human rights` issues are and are not.

Hope you/Bilal/anyone can throw some more light on these matters.

rgds,

PM

hamidin:

Sir, you are an absolute pleasure to read. Some who understand what you say conveniently pretend that they do not, because if they did, it would mean self destruction.

After contemplating Bilal Ahamed`s reply to my earlier posting I realize that I made an error of judgement by using derogatory remarks against certain group of people. Therefore, I would like to apologize for my earlier postings to everyone and anyone whose sentiments were hurt by these postings.

Sincerely,

Saad P Aslam

Macgupta from the Cut n` paste kingdom,

My friend, you want to listen to what you want to listen. This is a brilliant example you have just presented. Please read my post again,

``It`s a bit foolish and stupid to burn the place down but the guy who wrote the letter, the cause to why he wrote such a letter should be found out. If it is found that the letter was wrote not out of naivity but pure dumb hatred...then may I propose a dark room, some water on his back and a leather belt.``

I don`t advocate violence but if the reason to why the individual wrote such a letter was sheer hatred, then yes, bring on the belt. If he was naive and young and stupid etc, then the `rehabilitation` should be different.

PS, although Fuzair is right in saying that my post was serious whereas the other individual`s post was sarcasm, the belt bit was a joke.

Macgupta from the Cut n` paste kingdom,

My friend, you want to listen to what you want to listen. This is a brilliant example you have just presented. Please read my post again,

``It`s a bit foolish and stupid to burn the place down but the guy who wrote the letter, the cause to why he wrote such a letter should be found out. If it is found that the letter was wrote not out of naivity but pure dumb hatred...then may I propose a dark room, some water on his back and a leather belt.``

I don`t advocate violence but if the reason to why the individual wrote such a letter was sheer hatred, then yes, bring on the belt. If he was naive and young and stupid etc, then the `rehabilitation` should be different.

PS, although Fuzair is right in saying that my post was serious whereas the other individual`s post was sarcasm, the belt bit was a joke.

Freedom of expression is a legal right that is recognized the world over. In America, freedom of speech is enshrined in the Bill of Rights. The people and the Govt of Pakistan should learn the value of this basic human right. A society cannot progress without its members being allowed to say whatever they please, provided it doesn`t pose a ``clear and oresent danger`` to society. That article which attacked the Prophet, was in bad taste. The article served absolutley no purpose. The fact that it was published is a shame. But that is not the issue. The issue was the violent response that resulted from the publication. The govt did not maintain law and order in an adequate manner. Furthermore , the govt should have allowed the paper to continue to publish the paper. The Govt failed to protect two basic rights:the right to free speech and the right to life of the indiviual.

....what is blasphemy ? ..... i`ll be darned if i know .... pat robertson, and his disciple john ashcroft, might argue that the director of ``the last temptation of christ`` should be put on the rack and then quartered ..... and what about all those pakistani text books that portray Mahmud Ghazni, the great but-shikan, as a hero who was addicted to looting hindu temples and its offensive gods ..... is it possible that those text books might be blasphemous to some snotty-nosed hindu kid in sindh ? ..... as for those barbarians who live across the border in dar-ul-harsb - we don`t really care as long as they keep their hand`s off babar`s mosque ......and does blasphemy have a time limit ?...... as some munafiqs on the board have suggested, was it blasphemous to destroy the idols in the kaaba - after all they were sacred to some folks back then ?

....... it seems to me that just as the jews have hijacked the word ``holocaust``, we muslims are trying to stake our claim on ``blasphemy``..... at this rate we will soon run out of public-domain words in the english language and with webster being dead, and all, we will have to rely on old bill saffire to keep the language alive ....... temporal will have a field day !

Is chowkstaff exercising very, very strict editorial censorship or are their servers/apps playing hide and seek with our posts?

Or this is the work of some clever hackers financed by F_K??

re zahra`s

`You cannot stop people from thinking rotten stuff, or making obnoxious remarks, but you can certainly prevent publishing those views in national interest. `

Baji, if this is a normative statement of fact, then few can diagree with you. But if this is advocating a principle of governance, I am afraid that kind of thinking is out of place in a pluaralist society. The idea of `prior restrain`on the press and speech, is found to be the most repugnant of press curbs in civilized societies. True, in most of Europe, the governments do stop certain things from being written. But such curbs are almost exclusivelt to deal with national security and are always subject to review by the judiciary. En masse censorship, like we are seeing in Pakistan right now, is a thing of the medieval ages more resonant with Communism and Fascism than with freedom and democracy.

Quaid e Azam on Blasphemy

``we must also secure this very important andfundamental principle that those who are engaged in historical works,those who are engaged in bona fide and honest criticisms of a religion,

shall be protected.`` emphasis added, throughout

Discussion in the Pakistan Constituent Assembley

on 295 A....

Indeed if you follow the advice of the founder of Pakistan, there shouldnt be blasphemy law! atleast not the way as it stands today.

tahmad

aoa

first tahmad

didnt have time yesterday

saw ur reply and various verses from Quran

i would have expected better from u

``la ikraha fid din``

THE OLDEST MISINTERPRETATION BY SECULAR ELEMENTS

IT REFERS TO NON BELEIVERS WHO CANNOT BE MADE MUSLIMS BY FORCE

NOT TO MUSLIMS WHO WISH TO INTERPRET QURAN WITHOUT THE GUIDANCE OF HADITH

please at least take the time to read comentaries on quran before venturing on tafsir bil rai

rest ill hopefully answer with references tomorrow