What Constitutes Blasphemy?

Re: scout, #47

Scout, you are a very reasonable, rational and intelligent person. You obviously possess the most uncommon of senses: the common sense. I admire your thinking.

Talking of blasphemy, I`d say these fanatics have brought South Asia to a brink of disaster....

Consider the case of Mr. Mohemmed Yusuf Ali, who has been sentenced to death and 35 years of rigorous imprisonment, in an unfair and biased trial that was awarded to him after two years of essentially solitary confinement in a class C death cell, all for the charge of ``Indirectly committing blasphemy``....

Its high time the the intelligent and responsible muslims from among us put a check on these fundamentalist fanatics....

For more information please visit our web site http://www.wahe.net and support the cause to save an innocent human life.

BLASPHEMY LAW-THE TEXT

One must acknowledge the fact that Pakistan is a unique society as all other societies in the world. The purpose of making laws in any society is to legislate its moral values and sometimes even ettiquets. The simplest example would be a four way stop sign. Two drivers coming from opposite direction may be able to pass the crossroads even if the sign was not there but the law associated with a stop sign clearly defines each drivers` right along with his responsibility.

If law making werent such a big deal why not leave everything on individual to decide on what is right or wrong; Even a person with an IQ less than his body temperature can imagine the chaos that we will be in. The western moral values and the laws based on them must be geat-but only great for themselves. We have different set of values. We have every God given right to make laws according to our moral values.

The respect for Islam and unconditional love for our Prophet (peace be upon him), his comapanions, and his family supercedes everything in our lives and even our lives. What do we care if West, or Quadianies, or Christians, have a problem with what we hold dear.

The message to all of the above is clear. Do not under-estimate us. Do not test us. Do not tread on us. Do not judge us by the character of some black sheeps among us. We will strike back. We will respond to every threat of yours. We will give our lives for our dear ideals. Can you do that?



BLASPHEMY LAW-THE TEXT
Offenses relating to religion: Pakistan Penal code



295-B
Defiling, etc, of copy of Holy Quran. Whoever will fully defiles, damages or desecrates a copy of the Holy Quran or of an extract therefrom or uses it in any derogatory manner or for any unlawful purpose shall be punishable for imprisonment for life.



295-C
Use of derogatory remarks, etc; in respect of the Holy Prophet. Whoever by words, either spoken or written or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine.



298-A
Use of derogatory remarks, etc..., in respect of holy personages. Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo or insinuation, directly or indirectly defiles a sacred name of any wife (Ummul Mumineen), or members of the family (Ahle-bait), of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), or any of the righteous caliphs (Khulafa-e-Rashideen) or companions (Sahaaba) of the Holy Prophet description for a term which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both.



298-B
Misuse of epithet, descriptions and titles, etc. Reserved for certain holy personages or places.
Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other name) who by words, either spoken or written or by visible representation:
refers to or addresses, any person, other than a Caliph or companion of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), as ``Ameerul Momneen``, ``Khalifat-ul-Momneen``, ``Khalifat-ul-Muslimeen``, ``Sahaabi`` or ``Razi Allah Anho``;
Refers to or addresses, any person, other than a wife of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ummul-Mumineen;
refers to, or addresses, any person, other than a member of the family (Ahle-Bait) of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ahle-Bait; or
refers to, or names, or calls, his place of worship as Masjid; shall be punished with imprisonment or either description for a term which may extend to three years, and shall also be liable to fine.



Any person of the Qadiani group or Lahore group, (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other names), who by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, refers to the mode or from of call to prayers followed by his faith as ``Azan`` or redites Azan as used by the Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.




298-C
Persons of Qadiani group, etc, calling himself a Muslim or preaching or propagating his faith. Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or any other name), who directly or indirectly, posses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years ans shall also be liable to fine.

786/92

I have not read the whole letter nor do I want to. The excerpts printed here vis-a-vis the references in the Guardian and the Dawn article on it are enough for me.

In Islam it is a capital offense to insult Allah`s Beloved Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam no matter how ``slight``. The person who wrote this trash should be arrested (if he is a Pakistani); those who printed it should also be arrested as should those who allowed it to be published in their paper. They should be tried for insulting Allah`s Messenger alayhi salato salaam and executed publically.

Harsh! I hear some scream. Fanatic! Backward! Not according to Islam. Please allow me to quote a section from the classic book on the Beloved Nabi sal allahu alayhi wa sallam, the Kitab ash-Shifa bi huquq al Mustafa by Qadi `Iyad al Maliki, written hundreds of years ago in Muslim Spain/Maghreb:

The following is a list of the contents of part four of this book:

Part Four: The judgements concerning those who think the Prophet imperfect or curse him

Introduction

Section 1 - The Judgement of the Shari`a regarding someone who curses or

disparages the Prophet

Section 2 - The proof of the necessity of killing anyone who curses the Prophet or

finds fault with him

Section 3 - The reasons why the Prophet pardoned some of those who harmed him

Section 4 - The judgment regarding someone who maligns the Prophet without

deliberation or really believing what he has said

Section 5 - Is the one who says such things an unbeliever or an apostate?

Section 6 - The judgement regarding words that could be construed to be a curse

Section 7 - The judgement on someone who describes himself with one of the

attributes of the Prophets

Section 8 - The judgement regarding someone who quotes such words from

someone else

Section 9 - The states of the Prophet which can be mentioned for the sake of

instruction

Section 10 - The necessary adab when mentioning reports about the Prophet

The following is an excerpt from The Introduction:

``The rights of the Prophet and the devotion, respect, esteem and honour that are owed to him are made

clear in the Book and the Sunna and the consensus of the community. In His Book, Allah has made it

haram to harm him. The community agrees that anyone among the Muslims who disparages him or curses

him is to be killed.

Allah says, ``Those who harm Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and

the Next World. He has prepared a humiliating punishment for them,`` (33:57) and ``Those who

harm the Messenger of Allah have a painful punishment,`` (9:61) and ``It is not for you to hurt the

Messenger of Allah and you should not ever marry his wives after him. That is something

terrible with Allah.`` (33:53) ``

From section 4.1:

`` Know that all who curse Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, or blame him or

attribute imperfection to him in his person, his lineage, his deen or any of his qualities, or alludes to that

or its like by any means whatsoever, whether in the form of a curse or contempt or belittling him or

detracting from him or finding fault with him or maligning him, the judgement regarding such a person is

the same as the judgement against anyone who curses him. He is killed as we shall make clear. This

judgement extends to anything which amounts to a curse or disparagement. We have no hesitation

concerning this matter, be it a clear statement or allusion.

The same applies to anyone who curses him, invokes against him, desires to harm him, ascribes to him

what does not befit his position or jokes about his mighty affair with foolish talk, satire, disliked words

or jies, or reviles him because of any affliction or trial which happened to him or disparages him, because

of any of the permissible and well-known human events which happened to him. All of this is the

consensus of the `ulama` and the imams of fatwa from the time of the Companions until today. ``

May Allah give us the love of His Messenger alayhisalatosalaam and the correct adab towards him. ameen. (Those of you who want to read the whole section 4 of Qadi Iyad`s book quoted above can find it on http://www.masud.co.uk under the Miscellaneous articles section.

A friend at The Friday Times told me that the TFT was also sent a copy of David deZac`s letter. However, before they could publish it, the Frontier Post stole the show, so to speak. Anyway, someone at the TFT wrote to deZac asking him why he had written such an inflammatory letter, and informing him of the reactions in Peshawar. He wrote back. I was forwarded a copy.

He writes:

``Any reasonable human should conclude that what is really at fault is the draconic immoral set of laws in Pakistan that curtail freedom of speech. A death sentence because of an alleged letter to a newspaper sheds more light on the sorry state of Pakistan than on me.``

Food for thought.

Rafay Alam

Dear Hamidm,

EST Reply #: 52 hamidm

Could you kindly share with me your reading list (usual or daily) ? What profession are you in and what sort of reading material do you go through regularly ? Would you be kind enough to give me a list of your favorite books and or recent reading material (reading list) ? I am just curious - hope you dont consider it invasive.

My earlier post was gobbled up by the electronic ghost for some reason. So here goes:

It was either the height of stupidity that the letter got published or the newspaper was set up. I tend to think the latter.

No newspaper in India would even dream of printing anything like this. Years ago, Bangalore burned because of a rumor that the Deccan Herald had a story defamatory of Muhammad. Turned out not to be true but only after a lot of rioting and a few deaths. Even beyond that the government(s) would ban the paper.

How easy would it be to get a newspaper shut down in Pakistan if only you could bribe the type setter? How rigorous is the investigation and how objective (unemotional) are the judges?

rafay_alam:#170

You as a budding lawyer should at least try to find out thee origin of these laws.

There were NO such laws before the arrival of the British thugs anywhere in the world.Such matters were settled within the religious communities & the purpose of the kingdom/ruler was simply to maintain harmony within the community(unfortunately termed as maintaining law & order today).

In context of Indian sub-continent the blasphemy law & the pornogragrhy/censorship law was introduced during the last 150 years.

One had the purpose to stop the opposition to those who claim prophethoods & start new religions or counter the missionary`s arguments in `manaaziras`.I do not have to remind anyone about the advent of a new `prophet` in the last 200years.

The other law was to put on a muzzle on the press.Under pretext of guarding public morals(printing & distribution of naked/semi-naked pictures from europe--All `art` in India was in stone & for religious subjects) the Thugs intriduced these laws much before they gained ground in the homeland of the thugs.

Just check when Richard Burtons tranlation of Arabian nights was printed(1850s or so) and the uproar it created in contrast to when it was printed in its original arabic in somewhere around the year 800s.

__________________________________________________

The friday times is a stupid paper with a stupid staff on board.What is the fault of the writer here? He wrote what he (perhaps) genuinely believes in.Maybe the guardian or others turned him down.Now tft is scavenging & trying to make residual capital with the feeble hope that mentioning this might look them having scooped something.

They certainly are `efficient` at /poop & scoop .

__________________________________________________

wassalaam

#54 FK

``Give me a single instant when anyone here has been blasphemous about Raam,Gita,or the upanishads.Give me any hindu/indian sites where muslims visit and declare open season on hinduism.

The practices of any/all religions have definitely been a subject here and with the usual volleys or salvos.The muslims have always RESPONDED but never INITIATED this kind of exchange either.The cultural ethos of CHOWK was established well before I entered.Let anyone who has a better memory digout those inter-acts.All my posting were in retaliation to the first hate-salvo.

And yes,if there is an attack by anyone it would be repulsed with a better offensive.That is when all piety takes a hike from me or from any self-respecting human being.``

Look, you were talking about getting desensitized. I agree that it happens. But when you attack back all and sundry and try to insult whatever you think is the other guy`s weakness even if it means insulting a whole mass of people, you are contributing to this desensitization - this fouling of the atmosphere and have no standing to complain about anything. When you consistently label a group of people piss drinkers and dung worshippers because someone offended you, you have no reason to complain. You have fashioned offending into a weapon that they can use at you as well. I have never seen you reason with anyone that you disagree with without calling them names.

So there.

By the way, this is not a muslim board nor a pakistani board. I have seen you and others claim otherwise before. It can never be. The internet is wide open. You cannot have a little slice of it to yourself unless you are willing to pay the price. If you want a muslim board or a pakistani board, start a mailing list. You can keep out the unsavory characters and offensive material.

krashid #65

I don`t tell people what to do. My job is to identify fallacy and/or misrepresentation and to highlight it.

tahmed321 references to the Quran (please don`t spell it incorrectly, ``koran``--what is that?? its insulting), were out of context and illustrated a seemingly absent sense of retribution that the Muslim state is allowed to exercise.

I don`t support rogue justice and vigilante mobs. Nor do I make all-encopassing conclusions about matters related to religion. I see what I see and say what I say.

Don`t patronize me with your tired old Mullah hating act. You`ve got the wrong dude. Way wrong.

Ignorance? Darwinism is still an unproven theory, Plausible, sure. It ain`t proven, neither is the existance of a metaphysical god. Neither facts make for much. Grow up.

Next time you read a post, don`t let your personal hate and freudian negativity affect your reading skills. Have a Coke.

MZaidi

Chowk Staff :

Could you please post the letter ?

We will let Muslims make their own minds about the letter. That is the point of freedom of press, freedom of speech and freedom of expression : let the people make up their own minds. Those who try to censor, burn and stop expression are insulting all of us. We are intelligent enough to draw our own conclusions.

I am attaching the famous letter at the bottom :

--
Why Muslims hate Jews?

In order to understand the continuous hatehistory of the Muslims forJews through the present day violent hate for the Jews, one has to understand the theological roots of Muslim anti-semitism that is enshrined in the Koran.

Only then can one understand how false are the claims that prior to Zionism, Jews and Muslims lived in harmony, that neither Islam nor Muslims harbored any hate for the Jews.

The creation of the Jewish state in no way created Muslim hatred for Jews.

It merely intensified it and gave it new focus.

So long as Jews acknowledged their inferior status among Muslims, they wre allowed to exist under humiliation.

But once the Jews succeeded in getting rid of their inferior status, in becoming a sovereign state after centuries of servitude, and even to govern some Muslims as is happening in Israel where there are some 800, 000 Muslims under Jewish rule.

The existence of Jews and Israel was no longer acceptable to the Muslims.

The passionate hatred for Israel and Jews is a hatred that entirely transcends political antagonisms.

It was put in place by Muhammad who claimed to be a prophet of God.

His hatred for Jews was caused by their refusal to accept him as a prophet because of his low moral character and his lack of knowledge of the scripture and his murderous ways.

It is this non-acceptance by the Jews that made him murder thousands of innocent Jews in Arabia and drive the rest away.

Jews were a significant minority, perhaps as high as 40%, in northern present day Saudi Arabia.

He also wanted their lands, wealth and their women.

It is the hatred that he deified that bring forth the repeated Muslim calls not for just a defeat of Israel but for its annihilation.

As so often in Jewish history it is the Jewish nation’s existence that arouses the Muslim hatred and their passion to end the Jewish state.

The Muslim claim that the issue is anti-Zionism rather than anti- Semitism really means that so long as the Jews adhere to their inferior dhimmi status and do not express the national component of Judaism, their existence as individuals is acceptable.

But for Jews to aspire to equality among Muslims, for a Jew to aspire to a status higher than “humiliation and wretechedess stamped upon their foreheads” as the Koran puts it, is to aspire too high.

Muhammad repeatedly came up with suras to justify his evil acts against the Jews.

When he murdered the Jews of Banu Qurayza (800 in one evening as narrated by Ibn Ishaq) he came up with a sura justifying the act, the first holocaust against Jews.

What is worse he claimed the revelation to be from the Almighty—- blasphemy of the highest order.

Indeed Muhammad was the first nazi.

That was his style.

Claiming to get revelations in order to satisfy his political or personal agenda or his libido.

When he wanted to take on more than the four wives he had allowed Muslims he came up with a sura allowing him to take as many wives as he pleased.

Total dishonesty.

Unabashed male chauvinism.

I would not care how many women he bedded and how many times he lied about getting revelations.

What I object to is that Muhammad stamped hatred for Jews permanently into Muslim minds.

Muslim children from day one have the Koran recited into their ears, hate for Jews drilled into their minds.

Anwar Sadat signed a peace treaty with Israel.

Here is what he told his troops in 1972: “ The most splendid thing our Prophet Muhammad , God’s peace and blessings be upon him, did was to evict the Jews from the entire Arabian peninsula. I pledge to you that we will celebrate on our next anniversary, God willing and in this place with God’s help, not only the liberation of our lands ( meaning Palestine including Israel) but also the defeat of Israeli conceit and arrogance so that they must return once again to the condition decreed in our Holy Book, humiliation and wretchedness stamped upon them. We will not renounce this.”

The last was inspired by sura 2:61 in the Koran.

“And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them (meaning the Jews) and they were visited with the wrath of Allah.

That was because they disbelieved in Allah’s revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully .That was for their disobedience and
transgression.”

To this day this hate filled verse describing Jews, written in the seventh century Arabia, has been cited again and again by Muslims to justify their atrocities against the Jews.

--


For more Quranic sources slandering Jews and inciting hatred against them please read the same article written under anonymity (maybe by me) under the title of ``Why Muslims hate Jews``. That is if the chowk staff will publish it.

I would like it if someone shared the workload and wrote a similar article defending freedom of expression. I think it is a broad topic and most Pakistani Muslims are unaware of the importance of the right to express. Someone who is aware of the legal aspects of freedom of speech and the reason for freedom of press might want to introduce us to something new : ``Why Freedom of Expression is Important``. I read a lot of Muslims writing about ``Why freedom is bad`` and ``Why freedom of expression will land you in hell`` but nothing defending the idea.

--
The News International, Karachi, Pakistan
Tuesday, January 30, 2001 -- Ziqa`ad 04,1421
(Updated at 1415 PST)

Mob torches Frontier Post’s printing press

PESHAWAR: The printing press of the English daily newspaper, Frontier Post, was set on fire on Tuesday morning, by a frenzied mob, protesting the publication`s alleged printing of blasphemous material.

The several hundred protestors, said to belong to the Jamaat-i-Islami party, stormed the building housing the printing press and torched the stock of newsprint and machines lying within. Witnesses said the premises were totally gutted, adding the police, who had earlier sealed the office, were present but did not intervene to prevent the rampage.

--

BBC News
Tuesday, 30 January, 2001, 10:34 GMT

Pakistan newspaper office attacked

The offices of a Pakistani newspaper have been attacked after it published a letter alleged to be derogatory towards Islam.
Hundreds of Islamic protesters ransacked the offices of the English- language Frontier Post newspaper in Peshawar, in the North West
Frontier Province.

On Monday, the Post`s offices were sealed following the publication of the letter which attacked the founder of Islam, the Prophet Mohammed.

Seven staff members, including two editors, were charged with
blasphemy - an offence punishable by death in Pakistan.

Student activists belonging to the hardline Islamic Jamaat-e-Islami party stormed the newspaper building after gathering at a nearby mosque.

Newsprint rolls and machinery inside the premises were set on fire while riot police watched.

``The press has been totally gutted,`` the AFP news agency quoted an eyewitness as saying.

Students at the nearby Peshawar University also held demonstrations against the newspaper and demanded its editors to be executed.

Roads were blocked and traffic diverted as the protesters marched through the city, which is close to the Afghan border.

Apology

On Tuesday the Frontier Post carried large advertisements in national dailies apologising for publishing the controversial letter.

``We once again beg pardon from the Muslim Ummah (nation) from the depths of our heart,`` the advertisements said.

The paper said the letter was the outcome of a conspiracy against it as well as the people and government of Pakistan.

The letter, apparently sent by e-mail from an unknown place, was headed Why Muslims Hate Jews.

Peshawar`s district magistrate issued a statement saying the letter was highly objectionable and hurt the feelings of Muslims.

The Frontier Post`s managing editor, Mahmood Afridi, said the publication of the letter was a mistake which he regretted.

The country`s military ruler, General Pervez Musharraf, also condemned the letter.

``The government will not allow publication of such objectionable material,`` the state-run Associated Press of Pakistan quoted him as saying.

Pakistan has extremely stringent blasphemy laws which mean if someone is accused of blaspheming, the police are obliged to register a case and make an arrest.

General Musharraf had said he would change the laws which human rights workers said were used against religious minorities.

However, he later decided against this, apparently under pressure from Islamic groups.

Solitude
Just curious,
1. In what way is the Jew/Muslim question even slightly relevant to Pakistan?
2. What parts of which scriptures were quoted by Christians on the Crusades and during the Inquisition?
3. What parts of which scriptures are quoted by Israelis to justify the existence of Israel and the actions of the state against indigenous Arabs?

Sadhana

i think that regardles of what people say and do in pakistan their freedom of expression of expression should be protected. We live in the 21 ist century not in arabia. The letter was indeed tastless and i dont think any responsble editorial board would print such an inflammatory piece. I have read about cultural imperialism and the West on this board. I think that this is bs.. Just because the principle of freedom of speech has been implemented in the West,it doesnt negate the validity of the pronciple. Would you reject a newdrug just because it was developed in America? No i dont think so. Its time Musharaf fight islamic fanatcism . A seecualr, democratic society with secular democratic tradition is the best way to protect religion.

I say we hang (by their messy stinky beards) all these bigots who have nothing better to do then destroy public & private property.

anamika:#74

Who is doing the complaining here.You are!

When I react,I throw back the brick with with a little more mortar stuck to it.And I promise more.I do not `complain`.

The reaction to the obnoxious letter was NOT a complaint.It was another letter,albeit in a different format and the message was not left to anyones imagination or interpretation or tafseers.

Nobody lodged a `complaint` with the so-called authorities.The so-called authorities did whatever they did on their own to protect their collective munafique-bums & the chairs attached to them.

I sincerely hope that we as muslims do NOT mull over the pros or cons of lodging complaints with the immoral `authorities`(remember:Hamoodur Rehman?)while some of their kind are en-acting or re-enacting their west-blessed `freedoms` on our families.

THe vengeance should be swift & powerful & that MUST be the cultural climate.

Questions can always be answered after that.THAT is individual freedom & it`s spontaneous & reflexive.Like breathing,it comes with the territory.

__________________________________________________

``Jis Quom kay afraad hoan hur buund sey aazad``

for such an ummah(nation)

``aazadee-e afkaar hai iblees kee eejaad``

__________________________________________________

wassalaam.

krashid #64 & Fairdunkum,

kr: ``What the mob did, did very right. They don`t have connection to world jewry and and finance capital to curb it within the BOUNDS OF LAW. LAWFUL MURDER IS freedom of speech.

Let the West be reminded that we will not tolerate the abuse of Prophet PBUH even if we have to die for it.``

This is hilarious! So, the West (or `world jewry`) is behind this case of blasphemy, is it!? hmmm.. next time some African passes an insult against Islam, should we Teach Africa a lesson -- by razing the Pakisan office of the -Pakistani journal that publishes the insult, no less!

I suppose the cases of blasphemy against Javed and Salamat Maseeh, and that of the happless Quaidiani who was dragged and torched, were all examples of cultural imperialism by the hegemonic West (incited no doubt by their agents in the MultiNational C`s. Gee, no dissent on Islam could possibly be indigenous. We live on an island, completely insulated from other cultures. The only way other cultures could possibly infiltrate are through those evil agents of television and the cinema.

All influence on attitudes is undesrieable and-- what`s more!-- of evil DESIGN... financed no doubt by the tobacco and liquor behemoths of the West who are fast losing their traditional markets. Yes, it is they who are behind these inciteful cases of blashpemy... Y`see, they figure that such incidents raise stress levels, thus creating a market for their products.

Yup, any change in cultural attitudes, any dissent, is all a sign of cultural imperialism by the West. We know, after all, that culture is immutable, irressitable to change either from within or without.

So let us show our moral outrage for the evil West by burning a few more newspapers offices next time something like this happens. And, just for extra measure, we torch a few cinemas showing those raunchy Punjabi movies (again, more signs of cultural imperialism) The Mosad and CIA will surely get the message and back off!



Krashid: re. ``Let the West be reminded that we will not tolerate the abuse of Prophet PBUH even if we have to die for it.``

I don`t see you or F_K, the gallant of ``We shall defend our faith with our lives`` defenders acting on that principle with interactors on the board. You REASON at length with Solitude, and F_K has actually taken leave from his usual rhetoric spewing to try to convert Fuzair``.. And of course, hamidm gets kudos from all and sundry because his slurs on Islam are interspersed with clever witticisms.

Face it... You folks are only willing to show that you ``will not tolerate the abuse of the Prophet`` when their is NO DANGER to your lives. Typical of the way your `angered mobs` and terrorists operate. Unlike, say the Black (Tamil) Tigers who are actually willing to die for what they believe. They both kill. The difference? Your heroes are actually cowards, acting only in mobs or when their is no risk to their person.



As for F_K. is he for real? Suggesting that their be a thought police, is he (#58)? Correct me if I`m wrong, but this joker is now advocating thought-policing. And this guys chooses to live in the West!!!