What Constitutes Blasphemy?

Ref: tamheed Post 58

Actually my post was directed towards scout Post#3 and was referring to the same when i wrote `` the desired freedom......

I was trying to critcize the behaviour to assume western standards of freedom of speech/thought while living in a theocratic society. These cannot be applied while living in Pakistan which is based on religious legislature. The duality that one can have his beliefs as well as secular standards is futile. so if someone is a proponent of western standards then he should explicitly mention that the theocratic foundations of the country be replaced by secular one.

By the way i am not such proponent and admire deeply the system offered by Islam due to its moderation and spirit of tolerence unprecedented in other doctrines.

Wassalam

muzammil

PM #81

You and solitude just run away from discussion after putting your thoughts.

Let me remind you the discussion on a board where you told many things from Koran regarding Zaid and Prophet PBUH. When I responded you are away for last 3 days. Still finding your picktall.

And solitude only brings from some site cut and paste job and when challenged never respond.

So what is the your point of challenging when you already know that you have posted without any knowledge on hearsay.

And as far as, I am here. Please go to Pakistan on next flight and say something similar people will forget all Masih`s and you will be an example of intolerance in Pakistan.

Let me guide you to a site which is very near to your mental capacity and abilities. Go and post on Dejavu. com.

You will be very suitable there.

An individual somewhere here mentioned that one should rise above this and be mature about such statements. Agreed to a point. I can personally accept criticism of Islam if one has done their research on it, presented both sides of the story and then come to their conclusion, but to go outright and spew diarrhoea from your oral shpincter...I don`t think so...to hell with this liberalism bullshit...I`m beggining to get fed up with this double standard bull...where one talking utter filth and crap is pardoned but if a person dares present an idea that the liberals may not find suitable, everyone pounces on him/her like a bunch of rabid Woof Woofs.

Reminds me of my days in Pakistan when a bunch of political dicks stood up against the opposition chanting...uhem...teri pan daa flooda.

It`s a bit foolish and stupid to burn the place down but the guy who wrote the letter, the cause to why he wrote such a letter should be found out. If it is found that the letter was wrote not out of naivity but pure dumb hatred...then may I propose a dark room, some water on his back and a leather belt.

Ouch!

...... so now the shalwar-niswar brigades are burning the cinemas in peshawar - mashallah ....... there is an ominous ring to islami-jamiat-i-tulaba ..... is it just me or does tulaba have something to do with taliban ? ......is it possible that we might be on the slippery slope to kabul ? ....... well, loking on the bright side, at least folks like urstruly and some other momins stuck in the decadent wastelands of the west will be able to go back once the khilafat is established .... inshallah, soon ....... i wonder if the pakistani embassy in DC will be able to handle the rush as these people turn in their blue american passports and green cards for a green passport to the land cleansed of cinemas and KFCs and qadianis and christians and the horrible hindoos and those nasty people who raise their hands to their ears before going into rukoo........

israel murdabad .... USA murdabad .......richard simmons murdabad

...god knows, i need a drink - bad ! if only it were halal ..... what the heck - i know dua-i-qanoot and can always go for haj next year !

re. sarwari #92

``The saddest part of it is that someone is in Jail for allowing the expression a view that was of another. They should have liability against third party opinions like the Internet companies Like AOL have. ``

Someone should be in jail-- for stupidity if nothing else. I reckon it should be the person/s responsible for actually printing the letter -- not for blasphemy charges though, but for wholly negligant actions that virtually begged for the inevitable reaction.

Not that those involved in the `spontaneous` show of anger should not be brought to book-- nor the police officers who looked the other way.

Will Pakistan show that the rule of law is paramount-- or once again encourage the law of vigilantes and all those wishing to vent their lives` frusrations in wanton acts of violence.

Once again, I question the `spontaneity` of the indignation shown by the frenzied masses. Would those same vigilantes feel the same sense of outrage were they to be informed that such objectionable material -- and worse -- appears on this website? -- Or is their `spontaneous`, `uncontrollable` indignation reserved only for targets they can easily burn/pillage/destroy?

oops, sorry, Sawari, this post is not really directed to you, but to those wishing to excuse the mob reaction as a legitmate reaction to personal offence.

``Constant fear of retribution is a barrier to all good ideas.``

But what does that have to do with the issue at hand? I think we all agree there were precious few good ideas in the FP letter-- though charges of `seeking to incite siturbance` are not necessarily on. It is quite conceivable that the writer genuinely subscribes to the views s/he expressed.

It`s just incredible that the FP actually published it!

rgds,

PM

REF: Asif N # 69

Dear Asif,

There are many bright interactors on Chowk, but you, in my humble opinion, are the most scholarly on the fine details of Islamic jurisprudence.

``Please allow me to quote a section from the classic book on the Beloved Nabi sal allahu alayhi wa sallam, the Kitab ash-Shifa bi huquq al Mustafa by Qadi `Iyad al Maliki, written hundreds of years ago in Muslim Spain/Maghreb:``

How you find time to research old treasures in addition to working on a Phd in Engineering should be inspiring to all young Muslims. I wish you would include translation of Arabic words for the benefit of people less knowlwdgable than you. What does `Nabi sal allahu..` mean?

``I have not read the whole letter nor do I want to.``

That is the proper attitude. If an article in Dawn is good enough for you, it should be good enough for those, whose faith may not be as strong as yours.

Your quotes from the good book do not shed any light on the punishment for people, who boldly declare not only that God died, but even give the exact time of His demise.

``The person who wrote this trash should be arrested (if he is a Pakistani); those who printed it should also be arrested as should those who allowed it to be published in their paper. They should be tried for insulting Allah`s Messenger alayhi salato salaam and executed publically.

Harsh! I hear some scream. Fanatic! Backward! ``

Harsh! No way. I think you are too kind-hearted.

Ignorance of law is no excuse. It is not only the insulting letter, but its disemination that is on trial here. I think the paper-boys, newspaper vendors, the readers of the trash and those in Peshawar, who did not react properly like the mob should be dispensed with. This may be only a tip of the iceberg. Who knows what was published in the past in this newspaper? Anybody, who ever subscribed to the paper, contributed an article or a letter to the paper, and their families are guilty by association.

Sombody informs us that TFT was eager to publish this letter. This is no time for half-measures. Nip the evil in the bud. Nuke Peshawar and burn TFT presses, BEFORE temptation crosses their path.

The day the CE announces in the Dawn ``Pakistan`s Image Abroad Has Improved`` and we have scenes of illiterate madaris burning printing presses, cinemas and generally rioting while the entire administration of the city watches. nice one for the spin idiots the government calls their media consultants. good luck is what i have to say. pakistan is heading towards an afghanistan-like scenario faster than all of us realize. until the general starts to take a tougher stance we`re going to be up a creek without a paddle.

ahmadb#91 Your point is well taken. Indeed, I too reached the same conclusion i.e. that a part of the Quran is truly universal (the relationship between man and God and what is expected of good people, God`s supremacy over everything, how man can only understand a part of everything, the importance of what is in men`s hearts and how God judges based on that), and a part that indicates a practical next step for those times (the latter having to do with things like women`s rights, inheritances and punishments). The two are fully consistent if one looks at the direction in which the next step is being taken relative to the existing society of those times. Some of the descriptions of God`s creation are absolutely magnificent, I find. Parts are fascinating: the Quran refers to fountains of water gushing from the earth to cause the great Flood of Noah`s time - this is in contrast to the general impression through the ages that the flood was caused by rain, but consistent with scientific findings that were put up only a few months ago based on archaelogical findings - that around that time, the Mediterranean broke through a strip of land that separated it at that time from the Black Sea. Similarly, the Quran talks about the Earth and the Heavens being joined, and having then been thrown asunder - just as in the currently generally accepted theory of the start of the universe.

I do find that there are some very clear messages that are repeated over and over again in the Quran - that God is Kind and Merciful; that there are no intermediaries between God and Man; that the Prophets role is strictly that of a Messenger, and it is not his job to see that the Message is followed - that is for God to judge; that being of any particular religion - including Islam - does not confer any special advantages in terms of being close to God: what is important is to believe in God, the Judgement Day, and to do good deeds.

These are all in sharp contrast to those who would use Islam to gain power and to oppress the weak. The blasphemy laws were Zia`s creation who used intimidation as one his means to stay in power. It is time we recognized that man and his blasphemy laws for what they are. And about time we all started reading the Quran rather than treating it as a magical symbol whose Message is conveniently ignored since it does not conform to the culture being propogated by those seeking to destroy democracy and freedom in Pakistan and replace it with their evil dictatorships by abusing the name of Islam.

REF: Asif N # 69

Dear Asif,

There are many bright interactors on Chowk, but you, in my humble opinion, are the most scholarly on the fine details of Islamic jurisprudence.

``Please allow me to quote a section from the classic book on the Beloved Nabi sal allahu alayhi wa sallam, the Kitab ash-Shifa bi huquq al Mustafa by Qadi `Iyad al Maliki, written hundreds of years ago in Muslim Spain/Maghreb:``

How you find time to research old treasures in addition to working on a Phd in Engineering should be inspiring to all young Muslims. I wish you would include translation of Arabic words for the benefit of people less knowlwdgable than you. What does `Nabi sal allahu..` mean?

``I have not read the whole letter nor do I want to.``

That is the proper attitude. If an article in Dawn is good enough for you, it should be good enough for those, whose faith may not be as strong as yours.

Your quotes from the good book do not shed any light on the punishment for people, who boldly declare not only that God died, but even give the exact time of His demise.

``The person who wrote this trash should be arrested (if he is a Pakistani); those who printed it should also be arrested as should those who allowed it to be published in their paper. They should be tried for insulting Allah`s Messenger alayhi salato salaam and executed publically.

Harsh! I hear some scream. Fanatic! Backward! ``

Harsh! No way. I think you are too kind-hearted.

Ignorance of law is no excuse. It is not only the insulting letter, but its disemination that is on trial here. I think the paper-boys, newspaper vendors, the readers of the trash and those in Peshawar, who did not react properly like the mob should be dispensed with. This may be only a tip of the iceberg. Who knows what was published in the past in this newspaper? Anybody, who ever subscribed to the paper, contributed an article or a letter to the paper, and their families are guilty by association.

Sombody informs us that TFT was eager to publish this letter. This is no time for half-measures. Nip the evil in the bud. Nuke Peshawar and burn TFT presses, BEFORE temptation crosses their path.

In response to fairdinkum (Reply # 63)
Dear Fairdinkum:

You have focused on three main aspects: (1) cultural imperialism; (2) the current blasphemy issue; and the (3) the links between 1 and 2 above.

Scholars of Marxist orientation have written much about various forms of imperialism, including cultural imperialism. Yet, Marx and Marxism are apparently out of fashion. As you know, I am one of those who still openly recognize the power of Marx for understanding the reality around us.

As far as cultural imperialism is concerned, we need to find appropriate ways of dealing with it. If the Pakistani state and/or people are really serious about the onslaught of American cultural commodities (like Coca Cola, Disneyworld, Calvin Klein-Liz Clairborne-Polo products, T.V. shows and movies, and the McDonald’s), they need to think and act seriously about the future of our coming generations in light of a dynamic and well-deliberated vision. It is only through such an exercise, informed by various critical discourses of global power relations and cultural imperialism, that we will be able to build new locally-grounded and globally-sensitive cultural spaces. It is only through such an exercise that we can adequately deal with the causes and consequences of mob attacks on various properties and people in Peshawar (or elsewhere in Pakistan). It is only through such an exercise the people (I mean all people) of Pakistan can live in peace and harmony. The minimum we need at present is some guarantee to lead our lives with some dignity. Otherwise, the people with capacity will continue to vote with their feet.

For a basic understanding of how we have reached to the point where we have, I once again suggest the Chowkwallas to read Professor Hasan Gardezi’s article that I have often propagated on the Chowk (Hasan Gardezi, 1998, “The Failure of Capitalism,” Journal of Contemporary Asia, Vol. 28, pp. 310-326).

Yes, religious fanaticism is partly a product of some recent technological developments (as identified by you). But, these developments are like a loaded gun. You could use them to protect yourself or to shoot indiscriminately. For example, the internet is a much more positive weapon for gaining knowledge and to establish links with the rest of the world. The decision to use it for positive purposes is often based upon what we are (and what we want to become).

Aren’t we a product of our socialization? Isn’t education a positive means of socialization? If yes, how much are we spending on education compared to other relatively non-productive sectors? Gardezi offers a few key insights.

As far as the Frontier Post issue is concerned, the F. P. staff had made an honest mistake (or bad judgment) and the real culprit is the person who actually wrote the letter. Blasphemy is a bad practice, so is our desire to punish severely. Nonetheless, we cannot bring an end to blasphemy through severe punishments.

The Muslims need to reach to the sensibilities of people around the world by becoming what Islam really teaches us.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

ahmadb #107

Thank you very much for writing this response… And yes Marx, and Marxism are out of fashion, and so are modernity and the rule of science on all aspects of human consciousness. However, Marx’s analysis of capitalism, IMO, is the most in-depth analysis of capitalism to date. For me, it is still fascinating.

In much of the third world/developing nations, we are faced with a dilemma. It is absolutely necessary to open up our society to outside world if we are to succeed economically. But at the same time, we want to protect and preserve our cherished traditions and culture. On the face of it, those two goals seem like two mutually exclusive things – especially given the aggressive marketing strategies of various multinationals, the onslaught of satellite TV etc., and the aggressive demands of various international funding organizations (basically US/West) to recognize and implement their way of looking at life… increasingly they are linking bailouts/funding etc. to not only economic reforms but to cultural and political reforms… Their insistence on recognizing western values, as the only legitimate values not matter what the circumstances of a nation, is causing much disharmony around the world. West uses “Human rights” are as a powerful tool to manipulate world politics in order to achieve THEIR political and economic aims and objects. Naturally, people resist… and in places like Pakistan people unfortunately resort to violence as their feelings of fear and insecurity are intensified by their lack of education, lack of a strong and wise political leadership, and various other factors.

The religious right of Pakistan (and much of the Muslim world for that matter) feels threatened at the moment and resorts to violence due to fear and insecurity. Unfortunately, Pakistani leadership instead of addressing the real issue i.e. develop strategies to calm the feelings of fear and insecurity that currently prevails in Pakistan and, as you rightly point out, work towards developing “locally-grounded and globally-sensitive cultural spaces” has joined hands with religious right. I blame Pakistan Army for this highly volatile, dangerous and unacceptable situation. Our society needs a balancing act from our political leadership rather than a reinforcement of the environment of fear and insecurity that has been promoted by religious right.

As for the technology, I concur with you views… We must harness the power of technology and use it wisely to achieve economic success and prosperity.

Your statement:

“Aren’t we a product of our socialization? Isn’t education a positive means of socialization? If yes, how much are we spending on education compared to other relatively non-productive sectors? Gardezi offers a few key insights.”

This is the key to a lot of problems Pakistan currently face. Not only we are spending a disgustingly small amount on education, our priorities the area of education are also misplaced. Dr. Hoodbhoy has written much on this subject so will not dare elaborate on that.

Your statement:

“Blasphemy is a bad practice, so is our desire to punish severely. Nonetheless, we cannot bring an end to blasphemy through severe punishments.
The Muslims need to reach to the sensibilities of people around the world by becoming what Islam really teaches us. “

Again, I concur. I am totally against blasphemy laws and I also reject the hudood ordinance. They do not provide desirable solutions to our problems. Instead, they promote reactionary violent behaviour as witnessed in Peshawar. For “rule of law” to prevail, laws must first be reformed to reflect and suit the social pragmatism. It is interesting that the severer the punishment for blasphemy got, the more cases of blasphemy have occurred. It would be interesting to see some stats on that…

I strongly believe that an overwhelming majority of the citizens of Pakistan are pragmatic, sensible, tolerant and generous people. They do not wish to see somebody hanged or lashed or put in jail on flimsy grounds. It is absolutely necessary for Pakistani government to strongly assert its authority and let the religious right know that people of Pakistan will not let Mullahs roam around burning cinemas and newspaper offices. Will the government get its act together? Will we have political leadership, which understands what needs to be done? Can we expect wisdom from Mr. Musharraf’s regime and will we see some statesmanship from Mr. Musharraf? I very much doubt it!

GOVT, CPJ EXCHANGE LETTERS ON FP ISSUE

“The government has informed the ``Committee to Protect Journalists, USA`` that the publication of the blasphemous letter in a local daily has been condemned by all Pakistanis, irrespective of their religious beliefs. It, however, assured the committee that no harm would be done to any staffer of The Frontier Post, arrested over printing of the letter, unless found guilty” (The News, February 2, 2001).

For details, see: http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/

The Frontier Post affair: worrying aspects

By Rashed Rahma

http://www.dawn.com/2001/02/02/op.htm#2

re mikhan #99

``By the way i am not such proponent and admire deeply the system offered by Islam due to its moderation and spirit of tolerence unprecedented in other doctrines. ``

Yeah, you`re right on buddy. That spirit of moderation and tolerance is so evident in Iran, SAudi Arabia, and Afghanistan that people are crashing the gates to get in.

Pal, you guys think like typical Orwellian robots: slavery is freedom, hatred is tolerance, and suppression is salvation.

This too shall pass someday. That day is not far that Pakistan, in spite of all its current savagery, will live up to the creed of her noble Founder who boldly declared that religion is a matter that had nothing to do with the `business of the state`. You guys better be hoping that when that day comes the blasphemy laws are not turned against you for conspiring to destroy the foundations of Pakistan with relentless persecution of dissent.

The test is on. Is this going to be Jinnah`s Pakistan or Maududi`s. The scoundrels, including those in uniform, have the upper hand now. But this too shall pass.

Not too many people have witnessed this but for the sake of M A Jinnah`s memory let me say: May long live Jinnah`s Pakistan and may the rascals who are working overtime to destroy it face the music someday.

Bravo Mannyd!

You are ready to nuke Peshawar as beacuse one newspaper has published objectionable material. Just curious, is the real nuclear bomb you are talking about? the one that can create same destrcuction as the 7.9 earthquake in Gujrat, or even more? So you want to punish everybody in Peshwar? Is that correct? If it is yes, then Bravo again. So you think your God or his prophet are so little that some puny anonymous writer can bring him down from their ivory towers. Looks like believers like you can not have faith on the potential/strength/might of your own God. However, I think, Gods/Prophets (true that is) around the world are little bit better positioned!

In case you are wondering, I am/was/will be? a Hindu with some doubts about the existence of Gods and their prophets!

You and I could write this because we had a freedom of expression in Chowk!

islam needs to be brought out of the seventh century just as christianity reformed itself five centuries ago.

i`m disappointed chowk has chosen not to publish the letter.

aakar patel