What Constitutes Blasphemy?

Not really my area of interest but someone asked what was written and I read this earlier.......

From the ``Guardian``

http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4127593,00.html



``Seven face death for letter to paper

Rory McCarthy in Islamabad

Guardian

Wednesday January 31, 2001

Seven journalists face the death penalty for blasphemy after Pakistan`s military regime closed down an English-language newspaper for publishing a ``highly sacrilegious`` reader`s letter.

Hundreds of protesters from a rightwing Islamic party set fire to the printing presses of the Frontier Post in Peshawar yesterday and ransacked the newspaper`s offices.

Monday`s edition of the paper carried a letter which accused the prophet Mohammed of anti-semitism, ``total dishonesty`` and ``unabashed male chauvinism``.

``His hatred for Jews was caused by their refusal to accept him as a prophet because of his low moral character and his lack of knowledge of the scripture and his murderous ways,`` the letter said.

The writer said Mohammed made revelations from God ``in order to satisfy his political or personal agenda or his libido``. The letter, sent by email, was signed only ``BenDZac``.

Police raided the building late on Monday, arrested five staff and issued warrants for two senior editors. The staff are being held under Pakistan`s blasphemy law, which carries a death penalty for those who insult Mohammed.

Peshawar magistrates said the newspaper`s offices would be sealed indefinitely. ``The contents of the letter were highly sacrilegious,`` the court said in a statement.

General Pervez Musharraf, who seized power in late 1999, said his government would not allow the publication of ``such objectionable material``.

The Frontier Post, which was not printed yesterday, published a large apology in rival newspapers. It said that it was the victim of a conspiracy and that it had given a list of suspects` names to police.

``We bluntly claim that the conspiracy sought to close down The Frontier Post, rendering the employees jobless, and to destabilise Pakistan,`` it said. ``The persons apparently involved have been suspended pending inquiry.``

The Post has had a troubled history. There were riots outside its offices in 1988 over a supposedly blasphemous article. In 1999 its owner, Rehmat Shah Afridi, whose papers had been critical of the then government of Nawaz Sharif, was arrested for drug trafficking.

Mr Afridi has been in jail ever since as his case drags through the legal system. His son, Mahmood Afridi, who now runs the paper, is one of the editors wanted by police. ``

It is time the govts of Pakistan and India took a stand that when an individual says something ``blasphemous``, he insults himself and not the target of his comments.

So, if I say so-and-so is a pile of s * * * and most of the world thinks so-and-so is great, I come across as an idiot. THe right response to ``blasphemy`` is to say ``Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do``. The governments and the peoples of India and Pakistan (and Bangladesh with the Lajja by Taslim Nasreen controversy) should adopt this view.

No idea what the theological position is on blasphemy within Islam.

Sad but to be expected in the den of obscurantism that is our Glorious Islamic Republic. Reminds me of the time back in the 1970s when some Jamaati-type students beat up a professor at Faisalabad Agricultural University when he told them in class that Jinnah married a non-Muslim and his family now lived in India.

Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the Regress Back to Barbarism Derby! First Prize: Paradise! Let me update you on the field as it currently stands. In the race to see who can regress back to the Seventh century the fastest, its Afghanistan in the lead, Iran trying valiantly to catch up but seemingly flagging, Pakistan in third place but gaining, Sudan a distant fourth and Egypt and the rest of the ummah in the pack. Turkey scratched its entry and has decided to enter the ``21st Century Race.``

If Chowk has access to the contents of this ``blasphemous`` letter, could they please publish it, or are they afraid of Mullah hackers cyberbombing the website?

In any case, why can`t we have freedom of the press like other countries? Is our faith in God so weak that we let letters affect us so personally? This is shameful.

These Mullahs and their student jack-sses need to be eliminated from Pakistan in order for Pakistan to get somewhere in this progressing world.

Following response by Studebaker is being reposted. Dues to an error this coukld not get published:


There is some responsibility of the paper and its employees particularly those responsible for monitoring ,editing & allowing materials to be published.It certainly ,reflects the philosophy and point of view of the paper ,by condoning such material.No freedom of expression gives total freedom to a person to get his thought published.The owner of the publication reserves that right under best of free press in the most free country.
I have had my views refused to be printed or posted on the internet forum,with much less outlandish claim than blashphemy,sacriligeous and offensive that the letter as reported.Its accepted law above the freedomof speech Lets not mistake this suppression of freedom,or censorship but rather exercising the right of the publication not exerting its right fully responsibly.

I am glad that chowk staff noticed the incident to which hamidm alluded to in a post yesterday. It is another example of mob rule without any consequences. The Frontier Post was actually a voice more in their favor than other English dailies. They were often publishing articles by Usman Khalid and others in favor of Taliban government.

NWFP lost the only English daily with the burning and ransacking their offices and press.

On one side government is trying to access internet to more and more cities and on the other hand such acts go unnoticed. How would government and mobs deal with individuals access to even more ``blasphemous`` material on the web.

What the hell is going on in my country? Why not register a protest in some sane fashion. Who gains, if anything, with such acts? Mulla Omar?

Yaaro aisa to hota chala aaya hay aur hota rahega. Hum log buhat sadah dil haiN. Short fuse on logic. Emotional. Impulsive.

In one compartment of a train there were four passengers, a young man, a young woman, an old man and an old woman. As the train passed through a tunnel and it was pitch black in the compartment they heard the muted sound of a kiss and the loud sound of a slap.

The young woman thought --- why would they kiss the old woman and get slapped

The old woman thought --- how rude, in my presence!

The old man thought --- the young man kisses here and I get slapped.

And the young man, who had kissed his own hand and slapped the old man smiled.

Here we are in the tunnel. We do not know the details except that ‘’something” was published. Who did it. Was it a malicious act by some disgruntled employee. Or was it part of some grand conspiracy to malign Islam? ISI? No, we are in Pakistan. Damn, it must be RAW.

Put it in perspective. It could not be anything worse than the frothings of Ibn Warraq clones that we have been subjected to here at Chowk. And what is our reaction?

It takes little to set fire. One match stick?
There we go. Gone is the press and buildings. Long live Islam!

And the final irony --- let me see what impact this will have one year from today.
On Pakistan.
On you.
On me.

regards

temporal

What constitutes ``blasphemy?``

In my opinion, any religious symbol desecrated is blasphemy.

Chowk staff:

Please do not exacerbate an already inflammatory issue by reprinting & re-quoting the offensive material.

Studebaker is absolutely right.It is you who will lay the ground rules from now on and will forfeit your right to delete,edit or censor ANY material.

The double standard has to stop.

REMOVE HARPREET`s ``INNOCENT`` LETTER NOW!

P.S:I think something about holocaust,inflammatory enough for jews & seculars/liberals to take note should not be a bad idea to test this out.

__________________________________________________

wassalaam

One more time, from the archives....


Blasphemy

Word came in once again to hang
One`s head in shame as a member of
The human family that still stands firmly
Divided by faith, which is okay but not
To accuse, each other of disrespect with
Sentences of death looming

Based on possibly twisted facts or self interest
Backed by laws that need review
On the basis of the religion itself which once
Liberated us from such injustice and ignorance

Christians and us drink from the same well
Of enlightenment as do the Jews
With Hindus we have had much interaction while
Sharing the land of the Indus since our history began

The Bible and the Gita have lived amongst us
Along with the Ahmadi and the Zikri people
Color added from our own cultural paintbrush
But the canvas was and is in the hands of the Creator
Who has taught us much about respect and
The meaning of justice

One helpless Bishop with a gun in his hand
Conduct usually unbecoming for a man of the cloth
Has pulled the trigger and extinguished god`s gift of life

A last act of a desperate crusader for justice or
The parting cry of a human being to be seriously heard
Drawing attention to blasphemy laws as a tool of persecution
Against all believers who don`t walk the same path and become
Verbal targets of accusers and sometimes much more
In the land which today absorbs his blood
And that of many other innocent spirits
Who have chosen to be different.

- Ras H. Siddiqui (5-8-98)

This writing is dedicated to two people. Bishop John Joseph of ``Khushpur`` who killed himself in protest against the current Blasphemy Law in Pakistan and Arif Iqbal Bhatti, a respected lawyer and judge, who was assassinated because he pardoned a Christian boy innocent of the ``Crime``. It is also hoped that the Government of Pakistan will launch a full investigation to rule out any foul play in the matter of Bishop Joseph.

The actual letter can be found at the following link.

http://x54.deja.com/threadmsg_md.xp?thitnum=11&AN=721574295.1&mhitnum=0&CONTEXT=980965001.1471283228

I didn`t know if Chowk considers it desirable to actually archive the contents of the letter. So I am just providing a link here to the soc.culture.pakistan(SCP) archives on deja.com which has the contents of the letter.

Anyone who`s even slightly familiar with SCP knows that ``Mo`` is one of the more active participants out there. He posted this letter long before I read about it in any other source.

-Mithuna

mithuna #11

Thanks for the link. This is not a complete reproduction of the letter. And even if it was, there is no way to authenticate it.


CHOWK STAFF:

You ask, `What Constitutes Blasphemy?`

To give a proper answer we need to have that letter.

Is there someone out there who can fax a copy of the original letter in that paper to Chowk?

rgds,

t

The Frontier Post is most likely to revise its liberal policy of the freedom of expression. This is unfortunate. It is also unfortunate that a mob attacked the F. P. Press and burnt it to ashes. Those involved in this mob action must be persecuted; the Government has already taken action against the newspaper and its staff. Is this incident a result of a conspiracy against the newspaper? I don`t know.

During the past two days, I had made several unsuccessful attempts to find the actual letter. Now, having read it (thanks to mithuna; see Reply 18), I feel that there are moments when the freedom of expression clause needs to be balanced with discretion. In saying so, I am not trying to manifest my Muslimness. It is share discretion that I want to emphasize. This particular incident supports my general desire to change the world around me gradually.

What is blasphemy? My dictionaries suggest: (1) the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God; (2) the act of claiming the attributes of deity; (3) irreverence toward something considered sacred or held in high regard. In addition, there is a blasphemy law in Pakistan (whether or not we agree with it). You may form your opinions based on these.

To give the benefit of doubt to the Frontier Post staff, the publication of this letter suggests inadvertent carelessness on their part. I am not opposed to the publication of progressive/liberal material, but I do believe that such letters must be written and/or edited with much care. To those who disagree with me, please send a similar kind of letters against Moses/Jews, Jesus/Christians, Ram/Hindus, and even Mohammad/Muslims for publication in the New York Times, London Times, the Guardian, the BBC, Hindustan Times, The Hindu, and Khaleej Times. And, let me know if they are published.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. The Frontier Post internet site was closed soon after the incident. Temporal doubts the authenticity of the letter identified by mithuna (Reply # 12).

I read the letter on the link provided and its actually pretty mild stuff. Islam has shrugged off much stronger condemnation than this. I suggest that F_K and his friends take a valium or two and not get their knickers in such a twist.

After all, as Scotty said to Kirk, ``We are big enough to take a few insults`` aren`t we? Or is Islam so fragile a faith, and one built on so tenous a foundation, that this letter would bring it tumbling down?

F_K,

from the interest is Halal board

``Zeemax

hamidm # 96

Does anyone know what the `Jew` actually wrote ? The Frontier Post website has been taken down as well so no way of knowing what the issue is all about...

Just curious ! I would be grateful for enlightenment.``

F_K:

I was responding to a request and had just read the article in question before logging onto Chowk.

I dont agree with what was written in the e-mail, but I posted the article because it was relevant.

Maybe I should have just posted the link.....

regards

Harpreet

Hi,

I have read the letter, and may I add that it is one of the stupidest letters ever... yet I think more people read it because of the Mob attack than anything else.

When will our nation learn to be tolerant?

Muhammad was, in my opinion, the greatest man to have lived in History.... no amount of so called

``blasphemy`` will ever change that.

-Yasser Hamdani

Does anyone know what the article (letter) was about...

Am I the only one who really does not care what constitutes blasphemy? What matters to me is that because someone wrote something they were harrassed and harmed. Period.

One person`s freedom of expression is another person`s blasphemy. Half the crap that goes on under the guise of religion or the myriad other sacred cows are blasphemous to my sensibilities, but it does not give me the right to go and do what these hoodlums did. Who cares about my sensibilities, the things that offend me and others like me?

We deal with it on a regular basis. That`s life. It`s high time these hoodlums did as well.

Jawahara *tired of sacred cows, blasphemy and other assorted things * Saidullah

Quite a ridiculous letter. And quite a ridiculous reaction to the publishing of the letter. And quite ridiculous to publish it in the first place. Publishing letters like this in newspapers has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Reacting to letters like this by burning down printing presses also has nothing to do with being a Muslim.

I have never quite figured out why people attempt to provoke others by publishing material they know is incorrect, and extremely offensive to people`s religious beliefs. Salman Rushdie did so in his book, Satanic verses, (which I did read in quite a bit of detail, and am convinced was not an attempt at literature, but an attempt at creating controversy through distorting history). The guy`s life shouldn`t have been threatened, but what exactly was he trying to achieve by such an act? Why offend someone to score points?

The only religion that has at the universal level gone after Jews is Christianity. Anything the Muslims ever did to Jews pales in comparison to what historically the Christians church and rulers did. History has ample proof of that. And it is a well established fact, that Muslims currently dislike Jews primarily because of what the Jews are doing in Palestine. Every country except the USA and Israel accepts this. So the letter is basically incorrect information.

Of course, the reaction to such letters should not be violence. Newspaper offices should never be burned down. At the same time, why create controversy by publishing false and offensive information to an audience one knows very well will be offended? Who gains from doing so? If anything this letter has put the whole National Press on the back foot. None of them are supporting the Frontier Post, and many are condemning it. Primarily because they themselves are unable to figure out where freedom of expression stops and being offensive starts.

Every country of the world defines freedom of expression differently. However, every country does have a defined line at which freedom of expression disappears, and personal rights start. One cannot yell, ``Fire`` during a movie, and even the tabloids in the USA get sued regularly for printing false information. Even well-respected shows like 60 Minutes have had to pay. I think people should realize the social boundaries they are operating in, before they attempt to make so called misdirected quantum leaps towards freedom of expression.

Printing correct information regarding, say a corrupt ruler, is freedom of expression. Printing mostly incorrect information about religious leaders, of any religion, is something I have never been able to figure out. Different people in different societies will react to it differently. One could get away with printing this letter in the NY Times, but obviously not in the Frontier Post. Everyone knows how people will react to it in Pakistan, and that too in NWFP. So what is the point of provoking everyone for no particular reason? We have all seen the result. Everyone has lost out. It was a lose-lose situation, from the start. The newspaper office is burnt, even the Frontier Post management is stating it made a mistake, as are National newspaper associations. It has also strengthened the group of people who feel violence is legitimate in situations like this.

Idiocy all around; from the guy who wrote the letter, to the newspaper which printed it, to the people who burned down the newspaper offices. I don`t see how anyone can defend anyone of these groups in this situation.

I went to the site and read the letter...what amazed me most were some of the messages. Hating Islam just for the heck of it..how pathetic can you get?

mithuna #11

I just read the letter at the link you posted. It is total cr-p. This bs was not at all worth publishing in letter to the editor section of Frontier Post. I am very surprised that they published it. It serves no purpose except generating hate. Pakistan does not have jewish population to have obsession with their stories, unless you consider Pathans as descendants of one of the 10 lost tribe of Israel. Same garbage of trying to find extra historical ``chosen roots``.

Still the unruly behavior of mob is unjustifiable act.

The issue is very plain and simple.

Newspapers (all over the world) bear responsibility for the content they put into print. They monitor letters and choose to not print letters that are inflammatory and offensive to the majority of their readership and don`t have an intellectual point to make.

To say that the freedom of the press is being compromised here is entirely ridiculous. American and European papers don`t publish letters that even challenge mainstream views (especially in the U.S), let alone insult the character of their ``prophet`` or insult a religion. Don`t take my word for it, give it a try.

If the Guardian`s excerpt is accurate (it`s quite predicatable that they would print it under the slogan of ``freedom of expression``..try sending a opposing viewpoint and see how freedom of expression suddenly vanishes!),

I`m amazed that the Frontier Post printed it.

Conspiracy or not, they bear the responsibilities of the consequences because they printed inflammatory and offensive material. Obviously, they had a bit of a death wish.

Now, Chowk could print it. I don`t think it would serve any purpose especially if the material in the Guardian is correct. It would however give many chowkwallas something to bicker about for a while and create a convuluted debate out of something that is very simple:

``If you choose to live in a global society that respects all cultures, people and religions you should not print material that insults their belief system``

Very simple..no mental gymnastics needed to figure out this great puzzler!

However, most of us don`t choose to live in such a world. We choose dystopia.

Who really wants to see something in print that says derogatory things about Mohammed or Jesus or Moses or Krishna or Buddha? Perhaps the publishers of the Guardian (as long as it`s only Mohammed)? Somebody trying to get the Frontier Post office blown up? Or anyone posturing freedom of press (as happened with the ``Satanic Verses``) as long as it`s conveniently only one religion or people being insulted. Did you know that Micky Rourke got kicked out of Britain for calling the Queen a B-i-t-c-h on a TV interview. What about spy-catcher..why was that book banned? Freedom of expression, my ass.

Why didn`t the Frontier Post publish a letter challenging the drug culture in Sarhad, or the obscene use of religion as a political tool or the 50+ year stranglehold of ``prominent families`` on the rights and well-being of the people in Pakistan. These are the real issues that are not written about because the newspaper guys want to live. Why they would publish a letter that offends most Pakistanis and isn`t really a social issue of an concern is beyond me.

Freedom of press is a very real issue in Pakistan.

However, this isn`t about ``freedom of the press``.

Of course, if somebody really believes that this is all about freedom of the press then they should follow their noble convictions and have the letter translated into Pushtu, stick it on the front and back of their shirt and walk around in Peshawar in protest. Then we`ll all know that you have a point.

Hmmmm.... Dare I suggest that the same deference and `respect` for their icons that inspires folks to spontaneous acts of revenge is what keeps the `silent majority` insidiously silent as their nation slides inexorably into the hands of those extremists?

Does `desecration of anything sacred` constitute blasphemy? If it does, then every prophet, from Moses destroying the golden calf, to Muhammed crashing the idols of the Kaba, is himself guilty of it.

Sameer JB

please enlighten us, what could be the sane ways to register the protest.

Mithuna Thanks for posting the letter in question. While not wishing to excuse the cretins who attacked the Frontier Post facilities, nor wishing to indicate that the blasphemy laws are reflective of the Quranic injunctions or anything other than a blow to freedom and democracy in Pakistan, I must say the letter in question was indeed factually incorrect, biased and inflammatory. If it had been posted on chowk, it would have been shot to pieces the same day by other posters.

The publishers of the Frontier Post may be held liable for printing material that is of poor quality (historically incorrect, unsubstantiated, opposite of Quranic injunctions), or even for unduly insulting people`s feelings for their religion. But no more. The Quran tells us that we are not responsible for any individual`s views on religion, that being a matter between the individual and Allah.

Fuzair

Please do not misdirect the conversation. The fundamental question is not about the fragility of a religion, the question is why hurl insults while trying to make a point. Or simply why hurl insults?

The mob attack on the FP offices is unfortunate because such attack was uncalled for while there are laws in existence which deal with such situations. It only means that the people do not have confidence in the blasphemy Laws. Which in turn calls for strenghthning and proper enforcemenmt of such laws. The process of prosecution under such laws must also be improved.

On the other hand it must be an eye-opener for all to realize that Islam and unconditional love for Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)is the dearest ideal of Pakistanis whether they are practicing or non-practicing Muslims. One is only kidding himself by not recognizing this fact.

Pretty soon I am going to post two posts on this thread. The title of first one is ``Mirza and Gurr``. It is about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani`s diabetes and his binges on eating Gurr. The other is about the escapades of some Hindu gods. That will be a good experiment to test whether it is only Islam which is ``vulnerable`` or there are other religions which have same vulnerability. Depending on the outcome of this experiment we will decide what to do with Christians.

CORRECTION

In my Reply # 13 the wordd ``persecuted`` should have been ``prosecuted.`` This was a typo. I apologize.

-- Bilal Ahmad

Re: Urstruly #27

``Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.`` Ever hear that growing up?

The letter is just plain stupid and should have been tossed in the trash by the editorial staff of the FP. The intent of the author was not free speech but to work up the stupid people of Peshawar into a killing frenzy. Which it just about did.

However, the author had every `right` to write the letter. The FP had every right to publish it. The only ones who had no rights here were the mob. IF one is so upset by the letter, write a rebuttal to it. IF you are that upset by the FP`s appalling judgement in printing it, organize a boycott of the FP, or behave in some other civilized manner.

No matter how worked up stupid people get, ITS STILL ONLY WORDS! No words that are not `incitement to riot or murder` or a direct threat to public safety, merit a physical response that violent. So I am not misdirecting the conversation. I am only pointing out that, in the greater scheme of things, the letter is inconsequential. Neither God nor his Prophet care two bits about what some idiot wrote or other idiots printed.

BTW, the mob`s action was not ``unfortunate.`` It was criminal and the police should have acted to stop them. As far as the blasphemy laws are concerned, they should never have been on the books in the first place. BTW, how many Muslims have been prosecuted for blaspheming Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or any other religion? Or do you want to defend only Islam? Every other religion is fair game? Heaven save Islam from defenders such as you and F_K.

In response to Fuzair (Reply # 29)
Dear Fuzair:

I fully endorse your writeup, except the last sentence. Thank you!

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Urstruly,

You certainly have every right to write whatever you want, be it anti-Qadiani or anti-Hindu or anti-interest based banking. I would defend your right to write it as I would Chowk`s decision to print it or their decision to reject it. After all, its their magazine so they can do with it what they want, just as you can write whatever tripe you want. I would question your motives behind writing what you did but I wouldn`t censor it. We can only strengthen ourselves and our beliefs by pointing out exactly how and why our opponents are wrong.

I suggest you start by read J. S. Mill`s, ``On Liberty,`` to learn a little bit about tolerance.

Regards.

In response to Fuzair (Reply # 31)
Dear Fuzair:

Your statement: ``We can only strengthen ourselves and our beliefs by pointing out exactly how and why our opponents are wrong.``

My reply: Yes, before that we need to point out ``exactly how and why`` we are wrong. If we don`t do it, others will keep on pointing fingers at our internal contradictions/weaknesses and, in particular, at our transgressions. Moreover, an internal critique is a source of power -- something that we have just started.

Are we sufficiently prepared to realize our own difficulties?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

fuzair:#14

Now if valium could take care of the problems in this world the scientists would not have been working the graveyard shifts in the weapons industries.

I`m pretty calm & composed about this,fuzair.One way the issue eventually gets `resolved` is getting used to the increasingly hard-core stuff until the senses get frayed & blunted.

But do they really?

Wo`nt we all not seek or invent newer & more deadlier ways to hurt the fellow-beings?Somehow for some of us it is just not enough to be privately happy & contented.We must seek out ways to drag someone down to look good.

Maybe it IS our nature.And I am not different than you in this as much as we both try to pretend and prove that the others` existence is only nominal.

Now that is all fine.But then we are not that stupid also to take instructions from others to define our pain or hurt also.When will we learn that.Now if someone has become `civilised` enough not to be affected by any insult except that which threatens his creature comforts & power base then it should be his/her problem only,NO?

__________________________________________________

Throughout human history there is only one & one human being(the GREATEST ever to grace this earth)

who has been at the receiving end of the vilification.Now has any muslim ever/anytime published or uttered anything which has disturbed a community then please someone inform me.

__________________________________________________

He himself never rebuked even his worst enemies.He enquired about the welfare of the woman

who missed a day heaping rotten-garbage on her.

How we wish we could be like him.But we are weak & frail.Most of us do not mind being attacked personally because we at least know the adversary and can deal with him according to the situation.

But do we not all react violently when someone attacks our parents & ancestors or children.Even you as a husband must have experienced the wrath & scorn of your wife if you ever uttered anything bad about YOUR own children(evenwhen you were just uttering a fact!)

No fuzair.Search your heart,the issue is something completely different.It has nothing whatsoever got to do with `freedom` or `progress`.

We are just afraid to lose the lifestyles which either we have inherited exploitively or nurtured & nursed under some colonial `philosophy`.It is simply those who should not be holding the reins of power can see the day coming when they & their children will be running after cars at intersections.

__________________________________________________

Do you still believe that others should weep & cry and laugh & smile according to a US agenda?

__________________________________________________

wassalaam.

aoa

Jurist of Islam have very clearly defined what blaspahemy is.

From what I could gather a letter was published containing material against the Prophet Mohammad (SAW).

The writing and publication of material which is directed against Prophet Mohammad (SAW) is punishable by death.

However at the same time it is important to realize that Islam does not beleive in vigilante justice.

It is the duty of the State to enforce justice.

Even if government seems lacking the will to carry out Allah`s commands mobs do not have a right to do so.

Their right of protest is very much there though.

Soon i`ll give a reading list for those who seriously want to examine the laws and punishments for blasphemy in Islam.

wassalaam

Adnan

re. #27

``Please do not misdirect the conversation. The fundamental question is not about the fragility of a religion, the question is why hurl insults while trying to make a point. Or simply why hurl insults?``

Let us for the sake of argument agree that it is indeed immoral to blantanly and unjustiably disparage somebody/something that others hold sacred or in deference.

Now, the question is ``what constitutes an insult?`` Does writing one`s thoughts in a diary blasphemous? I don`t think anyone would agree. How about having it up on a personal website insulting? hmmm... tricky. IMHO, so long as no one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to read it and thus feel `hurt`, NO!

How about calling someone - ANYONE! - a bit-ch on National TV? Hmmmmm.. Unless that person could substantiate his claim, s/he is definitely liable to slander charges-- to say nothing of the fact that Televsion is an aural/visual medium, the output of which the recepient cannot choose not to block out/ skim over. (For the wiseguys about to ask me if I`ve heard of remote controls, please note, we`re talking about a live programme here)

How about `insult` `hurled` in the printed medium? Interesting. Now, unless you have a four- column, 72-point headline screaming out an obscenity, I don`t see how anyone could be `insulted` or offended. It is difficult to understand who is forcing the reader to turn to page x and read column y -- and read it through, till suitably offended. Is the existence of a letter on some inside page of some obscure newspaper really that much diferent from the existence of my thoughts in my diary , or on the chowk here-- IN TERMS OF ITS INTRUSIVENESS and propensity to offend, that is?

(Of course, if the `offensive` material were in, say, a children`s textbook, that would raise outher legitimate issues)

So what, then, *is * the fundamental issue?

Its just sad, this whole thing.

Every now and then, there`s a person that develops the guffaw to sacrilege Islam.

And the reaction to it, especially in Pakistan, seems to be like a match that has lit a gas filled cauldron.

Having read the letter, I am personally offended by its contents. So offended and hurt, that I am hardly in a state to go out and destroy other people`s property. I honestly am at a total loss. Allah help us!

I do know one thing. I wish the General had the courage to uphold the law both ways. By punishing the author, and by prosecuting the mobs that attacked the FP office.

Unfortunately neither he, nor any of Pakistan`s elected or self-appointed leaders have had any sort of courage, ever.

Perhaps courage is rooted in faith and character, and in the sincerity of purpose. Gen. Musharraf is the closest that we`ve had to sincerity, but apprantly prefers being the Time Centerfold and IMF posterchild, rather than a man who makes hard decisions and lives by the consequences. Tch Tch.

Pakistan`s mobs?? Poor people.

Their only outlet for such frustration seems to come against politically impotent and generally irrelevant foes like the author of the letter.

Is there a genius in the house that can somehow paint the oft-ruling establishment in Pakistan as being blasphemous?

Thats a party I want to go to.

As for the `blasphemer`... a pathetic fool, and a coward.

May Allah punish him with due wrath and vengeance.

MZaidi

The following is the link to the

deja.com website that has posted the letter:

http://x54.deja.com/threadmsg_md.xp?thitnum=11&mhitnum=23&CONTEXT=980965001.1471283228

Read the letter and read the responses and you`ll get a taste of what true hatred is all about. The letter shows you what a deranged individual this person is (who wrote the letter). One can only feel sorry for this guy. What`s really scary is that on a broader level it`s reflective of the Jewish psyche and their psychotic ability to justify anything they want to.

Obviously, this is not just a Jewish trait.

Let all mankind celebrate this wonderful dystopia because it belongs to all of us and our future generations. Oh, and the fire does spread so one can sit pretty and laugh at the misfortune of our neighbours but in time it comes around.

Normally, the blasphemy law has been used in Pakistan to justify injustice against minorities especially Christians in Punjab.

This isn`t about the blasphemy law. Such a letter would never have been printed first by any other newspaper in the World (especially if the religion wasn`t Islam).

And as far as the treatment in the Western press..it`s predictable. It`s in the interest of the ex-colonizers and the present day colonizers to divide and rule. Facilitate the environment for hatred. Manipulate the manipulable. Balance the power. Misinform and fan hatred in the empty heads of the masses.

Muslim vs. Jew.

Indian vs. Pakistani.

Chimp vs. Chimp.

Slave vs. Slave

Fight, fight..to your grave

Frontier Post has a very poor editorial board, at least on their web-site. Quite a while back, angry at some nonsense they had posted, I wrote a letter that wasn`t exactly polite. Amazingly, it was published. As a result of that publication, I became the subject of one of the opinion pieces !!!

So, in principle, it was possible to carry out the flame war we do on chowk, via the Frontier Post.

The correct response to a commercial institution that offends local values and sensibilities is to put it out of business by having a boycott campaign. In this case, a campaign that no one should buy or advertise in the Frontier Post should have been run.

-Arun Gupta

It was the depth of stupidity and insensitivity on part of the FP management to print such a letter. Stupidity and insensitivity, however, are not crimes in the civilized world. Arson and assault are. True to form, Pakistan`s rulers have arrested the victims of assault and arson and congratulated the leaders of the mob. May be even a tamgha-e-this or that might be forthcoming to the bosses of the lynchmob. Look at this as the press equivalent of the Zina laws-the victim gets arrested and prosecuted.

aoa

tahmed:

``The Quran tells us that we are not responsible for any individual`s views on religion, that being a matter between the individual and Allah``.

Well i have been reading commentaries on the quran for quite some time, but I think this tahmad has discovered something new in the holy book.

Since i am an ignoramus please shed some light on which verses from the quran r u referring to

wassalaam

adnan

re f_k #9:

``REMOVE HARPREET`s ``INNOCENT`` LETTER NOW!``

Is this guy for real? I don`t know whether to laugh or cry. This guy darts with his tail between his legs from forum to forum.

Are you setting a hacking unit to come after the Chowk staff or the likes of me and Fuzair? I wouldn`t be surprised.

later

-sac

#34 Farangi_Khush

You make some valid points. I`d almost have fallen for your piety had I not read your other stuff trying desperately to offend the hindus and ``babablacksheep``. Can`t you take it as well as you give it?

Sadly since the demise of the islamic khilafah in 1924. destroyed by the hands of the corrupt and despotic british stouge Mustafa Kamal.

The muslim ummah has been bombarded by secular leadership in our political affairs, where all our lands are ruled by despotic secular regimes, more akin to their personal gains, obtainable through usurping power, then the needs of the masses.

In this spectrum the western ideologically capitalist nations, have flourised in their export of secular values and principles, which arose through their abolision of a corrupt clergy system, justifing the actions of the ``divine right monarks who presidented over western nations.

Hence is it any surprise that members of the press, many of those educated nad staunch adheres to western thoughts and principles, would allow such a blatant attack on the prophet of islam. which is in clear violation of islamic law, adhered to by all muslim schools of thought.

Although this secular philosophy has lead to economic and intectual evelation in the western nations. It will fail to impact in such ways in te muslim lands. this is because the muslim experience of islam is NOT akin to western perceptions of religion. Islam is not a religion but an ideological alternative which provides detailed solutions for all aspects of lifes affairs.

When islam as a political system ruled many corners of the globe, western nations were in the dark ages. islamic society under the Khilafah flourished in science, technology, economics, architecture and intelectual thought.

The muslims today have forgotten this intellectual basis to islam, due to years of colonial occupation where the concepts of the islamic ideology where eroded.

Subsequently the perception of islam has been reduced and incorrectly classified to the parameters of the tyrannical clergy rules of europe during the dark ages.

Western secular values cannnot be adhered to by the muslims, because the western capitist ideology is not combating the secular religios premise of cristianity. through which it can achieve a compromise solution, but is challenging an inherantly islamic ideological belief, which as its own unique political economical, judical, social, framework.

One cannot accept rationally the aderance of bot capitalism and communism in a simbiotic relationship. likewise the islamic ideology can never be compromised and emblemised with the secular basis of capitalistic thought and system.

Ultimatelly only one ideoligical framework can exists as a basis for which an ideological nation can exists.

As muslims and specifically muslims of Pakistan. we have the choice to choose which ideological framework we wish to be the basis of our civilisation. Either werstern capitialism, which is dyametrically apposed to te islamic ideology or the islamic system. which is definatively revealed by our creator Allah subhan wa tala.

My support is on Islam, and alhamdullilah inteclteual islamic parties like hizb ut tahrir of whom i am qa member of. are working tirelessly, and successively to intelectually revive this noble ummah. so that islam once more may be the beacon of justuce and light for all mankind.

Wasalaamu Alaikum

Funny how the NY Times printed similar, hateful ads against Pakistan (sponsored by Indians), and none of the Mullah Pakistanis from NY raised their voices.

Umairr #21,

Doesn`t the media strive on provoking people?

Even this website has printed the most lame and provoking articles (remember Solitude`s article on some idiot named Ghazali).

What about his hateful posts, or the posts of others? Why didn`t the Chowk editors edit or refuse to put up some of YLH`s hateful posts, or even mine that said something bad about Indian women?

It`s all about attracting attention. The Frontier Post tried the same tactic, but failed, bad luck for them.

Ref: Post 4 (Scout):

The desired freedom of speech is a borrowed terminology propagated by the west and its hulligans. This freedom was nowhere to be seen when the west was struggling under the influence of christian church until they descided to let go of all religious inclinations. What they came up with is the so called modern thought.

This thought when applied to a society still under the clutches of clergy may result in confusion and chaos. Untill republic of Pakistan alludes to religious foundations we will have to live within limits imposed by it.

It is not a question of wheather the belief is so fragile that it cannot resist a blow like the article published but that the norms of a theological society cannot be challenged beyond certain limits of repectibility.

If you are a proponent of modern standards of freedom (as practiced and preached by west) then clearly denounce the continuation of Pakistan as a theological republic and vindicate its becoming a secular one.

Regards

Muzammil

Spinoza #26,

Good points. Almost every religious leader of every religion in the world is guilty of desecration of other religions, in some way or another.

I don`t understand why we have to make religion (especially it`s history) such a big issue. Why can`t people just go to their churches, mosques, synagogues, pray peacefully and get on with their lives.

adnan #41 ``Well i have been reading commentaries on the quran for quite some time, but I think this tahmad has discovered something new in the holy book. Since i am an ignoramus please shed some light on which verses from the quran r u referring to``

Here are a few.

Surah 2:256 ``Let there be no compulsion in religion...``

Surah 3:144 ``Muhammad is no more Than a Messenger``

It is logical to understand this to mean that the Prophet was charged with conveying a message, not with ensuring it`s implementation.

Surah 6:159

``As for those who divide

Their religion and break up

Into sects, thou hast

No part in them in the least:

Their affair is with Allah:

He will in the end

Tell them the truth

Of all that they did``

I understand this to mean that it is not for me to go around telling shias or ahmedis that they are wrong and you are right: ``Their affair is with Allah``. Since the Quran also repeatedly says that there are no partners with Allah, the logical conclusion is that anyone who takes upon himself affairs that belong to Allah is taking on the role of a partner of Allah. I find it fascinating that this most fundamental message of Islam is violated with impunity every day in Pakistan. The Quran in a number of places makes it clear that the Prophet is there to convey a message, not to watch over it`s implementation. He is there only to warn, and leave it to the individual to carry it out. Can any true muslim claim to have a broader mandate from Allah than that given to the Prophet? What does this make of those who routinely hurl insults at other religions and condemn to death people who dare to express their views?

Also see Surah 10:41

``If they charge thee

With falsehood, say:

``My work to me

And yours to you!

Ye are free from responsibility

For what I do and I

For what ye do!````

Surah 11:12

``...But thou (the Prophet) art there only to warn!

It is Allah that arrangeth

All affairs!``

Surah 110 deals specifically with this issue:

``Say: O ye

That reject Faith!

I worship not that

Which ye worship,

...

To you be your Way,

And to me mine.``

I hope this is enough to whet your appetite to study the Quran more carefully, and the courage to reach your own honest conclusions regarding where the blasphemy laws stand in relation to the Quran. That is your duty as a muslim.

Re: Ahmadb #32

Quite right, Professor. Thank you for pointing that out. We should all realize our own weaknesses before pointing out those of others.

* * * * * * * *

Re: F_K #34

I thought I followed the first part of your post but you lost me in the end. I am not defending what was written, just the writer`s right to do so. As I said, I would have tossed the letter out had I been on the editorial staff of the FP but I will reiterate that words, no matter how offensive, are JUST words. It is not that I am so blase that no words will ever hurt me. I haven`t reached that stage of `enlightenment` yet. Its simply that since I don`t wish to be censored, I will not censor others other than for the most compelling of reasons. I am afraid that hurt feelings or offended sensibilities or moral outrage, no matter how justified, does not fall in that category for me.

Regards.

THE POWER OF RELIGION

According to the Nation (February 1, 2001): ``The Federal Cabinet on Wednesday decided to appoint a judicial commission to probe into the publication of a sacrilegious letter in a Peshawar-based English daily and identify those responsible for it.``

Just see what a silly letter can do in Pakistan. How many commissions were appointed to pay attention to what thousands of us write every day in the greater interest of Pakistan?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Priorities are certainly misplaced in Pakistan.
Also, people are certainly not as educated and sophisticated as they may be in the west... so they defend their beliefs and their culture and their way of life in a crude manner... but all human beings (well, not all) do defend rather should defend their way of life and their own culture. it is better to resist aganist cultural colonialism than to simply give in and not do anything about it.... not like the sout east asians who even change their bloody name to David and Christopher from wong and chung. Not saying that what happened in Peshawar was right... not at all..

In response to fairdinkum (Reply # 50)
Dear Fairdinkum:

How is the issue of blasphemy linked with the notion of cultural imperialism? Please clarify. However, like other forms of imperialism, cultural imperialism often affects our somewhat peculiar way of life and our ability to think/act freely.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. Chowkwallas, for a good introduction to Cultural Imperialism, please see: John Tomlinson (1991). Cultural Imperialism. Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins Press.

......... this is the straw that broke the dromedary`s back ! ... i have had it with the jews, hindoos, qadianis, ex-communists, europeans, americans and the bushmen of botswana .... all of them, aided and abetted by the munafiqs and bahais and free-masons, have been trying to destroy islam since hazrat ali (RA) was assasinated by the original mossad ...... today, these enemies of islam disguise themselves as IMF officials and multi-national executives and rotary-club members and shriners and NGO karta-dhartas and catholic missionaries and leotard-wearing gymnasts and george soros and regis philbin ........ they are like termites, eating away at the fabric of the ummah, penetrating dar-ul-aman with poisonous broadcasts form satellites and invading our homes via the internet - a tool invented by the former vice president of the US to wage war against the prophet (pbuh) and his ummah ...... the cia, mi-5, raw and mossad have infiltrated the editorial boards of our newspapers and now wage war on us from within ........ they have placed their agents, like hoodbhoy, in our universities to pollute the minds of our young men and women .... they have succeeded in implanting grops like junoon who desecrate and mock the kalam of saints like hazrat iqbal ( ra) ......... these people will stop at nothing to accomplish their nefarious goal of destroying the ummah ......... WE MUST NOT LET IT HAPPEN .........

......... we must fight fire with fire ......

Having read it, it beggars belief that the FP would have published this letter. If stupidity, it borders on criminal. If deliberate, its intent can only have been to inflame passions. And of course, the people obliged.

Let`s see where it all ends up. The reaction of people was beyond all proportion - and of course, once a mob gets riled up, anything is fair game (what had the poor cinema owner done?).

Nontheless, Bilals suggestion is intriguing..

anamika:#42

Nobody is claiming nor could claim piety here.

Give me a single instant when anyone here has been blasphemous about Raam,Gita,or the upanishads.Give me any hindu/indian sites where muslims visit and declare open season on hinduism.

The practices of any/all religions have definitely been a subject here and with the usual volleys or salvos.The muslims have always RESPONDED but never INITIATED this kind of exchange either.The cultural ethos of CHOWK was established well before I entered.Let anyone who has a better memory digout those inter-acts.All my posting were in retaliation to the first hate-salvo.

And yes,if there is an attack by anyone it would be repulsed with a better offensive.That is when all piety takes a hike from me or from any self-respecting human being.

__________________________________________________

You could not resist a venomous come-back even after I had posted a very genial post.This you sarcastically called my ``piety``.Whether I behave well or bad it is all the same to you,isn`t it?__________________________________________________

Wassalaam.

MASD #20: The proper way to register a protest is what Fuzair wrote in his post #29. Nobody has the right to become criminal in the process of protesting against a ``crime``. I personally dislike the blasphemy law but it is there. So the proper way of protesting was to 1) register a case against the editorial board; 2) Organize a boycott of FP.

Well, the case has been registered and members of the editorial board have been arrested but what about the crime of burning down the press? Machines do not commit crime, people who operate them do. What if similar mistake or stupidity are comitted by Radio Pakistan, PTV, State Bank of Pakistan etc etc in the future. How many buildings, machinery and offices have to be burned before Pakistan really becomes Pak-Pakistan?

Reminds me of one Afghan Mujahideen group, headed by Abdul Rasool Sayyaf who were the first to liberate a whole province, Nangarhar, from Russians/ Afghan Communists. They practically burned everything to ashes, including office furniture, fans, refrigerators, typewriters, jeeps and even tractors-as kafir symbols. And then many of the mujahideen including some Arabs were grabbing young women as booty (mal-e-ghaneemat).

Somehow the strength of Islamic character for fundamentalists is proportional to the rage they can show when opportunity knocks at their door. Even they actively take part in creating opportunities for rage from thin air either involving in sectarian killing or just blaming the every government to be not enough Islamic. Having a normal peaceful life does not fit with their mindset because it does not provide enough opportunities to ``defend`` Islam or serving Islam. One really has to understand their convictions to understand why they do what they do. The FP issue was a God-sent for them. After burning the press of FP, Islam is safer now in Peshawar, or is it?

Farangi Kush,

If someone attacks my loved ones physically, I have every right to react violently to protect them. That right of violence as a form of defence to a physical attack is protected everywhere in the world.

However, if someone attacks or insults my loved ones IN PRINT, I dont have the right to respond with physical violence. I do have a right to express my repugnance at the person`s behaviour or sue him/her for defamation of character.

On Chowk, you have the right to say hindus imbibe cow dung & urine; & I have the right to make jokes about the 72 houris in heaven. At the same time, people who are offended by such remarks have equal rights to slam us.

What about Solitude`s slanderous remarks about Islam? or URstruly`s remarks about penis gods ? Many could consider them as blasphemous. Chowk has allowed them to be posted. Where do you draw the line?

The editors of Chowk demonstrate to me that they are remarkably--er what word can I use--liberal? tolerant? Many posts here are construed as ``vulgar``. Its very easy to get past software censors by using desi vulgarity or by other means. People who have been offended by vulgarity have said so. Yet Chowk has let them pass.

Now ,if people who are offended by Chowk editorial policy have every right not to visit this website. Do they have a right to deface it? If the editors of Chowk lived in Pakistan, would they be arrested for blasphemy? I`m curious? Maybe, I`m confused what constitutes blasphemy & what does`nt. Hoping other Chowksters will help me clarify this issue.

I found nothing serious in the article although it is highly provocative.

1- The author asserts that it is anti-semitism with which Muslims are driven. If this is the case then Christians are much more anti-semitic in the first place. But let us see.

Who killed jews in current century, Europe but particularly German. Instead of trying to fight for their rights, jews are playing the game of West as their most obedient servants. Killing and displacing not only Muslims, but Christians from their home in Palestine now called Israel. What Muslims are doing are fighting for their rights there. What jews are doing there. Nothing. Since they could not fight their tormentors, they find an easy prey in Palestine. So if fighting for one right is called Anti-semitism in any dictionary, I am a very strong person to fight for my right.

The writer also claims that Prophet PBUH was not accepted by jews because of low moral character. It only signifies a high moral character of jews compared to prophet PBUH. And probably for the same reason they not only not accepted Jesus as prophet but colluded with Roman Empire to put him on cross.

Also the writer asserts that Islam is anti-semitic according to Koran. While as a reader of Koran I found that wrong thoughts and actions of jews are criticized, and not jews as a people. For example and there is even ample proof from Jewish book that when Moses went to ``Koh Toor`` jews started to worship bull. If this is anti-semitic than Moses was the biggest Anti-semitic because he was very angry. If it is mentioned that jews broke the God`s law by trading on Sabbath then the writers of Jewish testament are as much anti-semitic as Muslims. Or if they have changed the word of God for small benefits. Where in the hell it is written that kill a person because he is jew.

Then the assertion is regarding Bani-Quraiza.

Lets see in Early Islamic history the persecution of jews of Bani Quraizah.

`` ``When the trench was completed in Battle of trench in Medina. Bani Nadir (jewish tribe from Khyber) sent their emissary Huyay. Bani-Quraizah were in Medina and an ally of Muslims. When carrot of high REWARDS along with elimination of curse of Islam was shown to them where Quraish, Banu-Ghutfan and Bani Nadir will attack from all sides. Only Banu-Quraizah have to break their pact with Mohammed PBUH. And they broke the pact when the weak and nascent Muslim state was in grave danger.

The attack from Quraish was not getting successful as predicted. Banu-Quraizah became afraid of their prospect. When the Quraish and Ghutfan returned unsuccessful Muslims besieged the fort of Bani Quraizah. The Aws (a tribe) an ally of Bani Quraizah sent a deputation to prophet PBUH to tell him to show the same leniency as he had shown in past to Bani Qaynuqa, an ally of Khzirj (a tribe). The Prophet PBUH told them he will leave the judgement on one of their own from Aws. Then Saa`d bin Muaadh, the chief of Aws pronounced the judgement. Before pronouncing judgement he asked that judgement will be binding on all? and both Muslims and jews said ``We do``. And that is the story behind Banu-Quraizah massacre.

As far as jews not accepting the prophet PBUH.

Long before this incident Ibn al-Hayyaban the old syrian jew who came to live amongst them told the jews about coming of the prophet ``His hour is close upon you. Be ye the first to reach him, O Jews; for he will be sent to shed blood and to take captive the women and children of those who oppose him. Let not that hold you back from him.`` ``

Also many jews had accepted Islam Islam much before this incident in Medina including some Rabbi.

Such were the time and culture we are discussing with our fingers on key board.

All incidences from Medina under `` `` are from Martin Ling book ``Mohammed``

tahmed321 #43

Thank you tahmed321, for inspiring us to read the Glorious Quran before reaching a conclusion regarding blasphemy laws.

I am certainly no supporter of Bhutto or Zia-styled Islamism, its much too tainted with the political color of the Sub-continental chauvinism that remains a rampant problem.

I did a little reading of the Holy Book myself, here`s what I found:

Surah No. 5: Al-Maaida

Ayah 33. ``The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.``



Unlike tahmed321, I cannot claim scholarship about the Islam. I am a student, many better and greater men and women have served the cause of learning much better than myself. In most cases, in line with the Shariah, I believe that if there is a question that needs to be answered and there is no direct response for it in the Quran and Hadith, Muslims must consult a scholar.

Tahmed321 and others must be careful before they use the Quran with an intent that is so audaciously conclusive.

I do not claim that the Ayah quoted above is the end all answer to all matters relating to blasphemy, though I can`t imagine a convincing argument against the same.

By the same token, if there is a smidgen of intellectual honesty in you tahmed321, please retract your arrogant statements, and concede that you are not a scholar, but merely a student.

Confusion I can understand, but your boldness seems to mirror an agenda that I would rather not speculate upon.

May Allah forgive me and all others for our transgressions.

MZaidi

fuzair:#48

Nobody but nobody needs anybody`s permission to exercise `freedom of speech` or for that matter any freedom.Whether you or I approve,like,dislike has no validity here.

So if you sing in the shower or write in your diary whatever you want it does not affect anyone.You will only know the reaction once someone lays hands on that material whether with your express or implicit desire OR surreptiously.Once your views/designs become known to the other party(even a spouse) then you WILL be taken to task.Again no one has to seek your permission for their rectionay behaviour.In whatever manner,if your

thinking process is discovered it is bound to meet with an appropriate(hostile/favourable) reaction.

Wise people exercise discretion rather than trying to question the passions of others.It is not proper to eulogise the virtues of vegetarianism when you are the potential main course on the menu of cannibals--(be they eastern or western.)

Words have tremendous power.Much,much more power than sticks & stones(amazing that you still lead your life according to that ditty).Words can charge up people to risk their lives or to save lives.I hope you do not want me to go in a spiel here on this subject.

__________________________________________________

For those eager to test their freedom limits in the so-called free lands,I would request them to find out what is happening to those who have done so.I do not mind at all if such issues are not raised now because we have a lot of cathching up to do.

But please establish for sure that it is the interest of Islam which is paramount(if you are a muslim).The rest is just discussion for discussion`s sake because none of us are ulemas or scholars at least in this field.

__________________________________________________

``Yeh naadaaN gir gayay sajday mein jubb vaqt e qiam aaya``

tr:These simpletons went down on their knees(prostrated) when the call went out to stand upright.

__________________________________________________

wassalaam

Fairdinkum #50

I see it in different way.

If there is an accident in which someone is hurt, people already take their toll on the perpetrator of crime because they know that the person will go scot free.

Now see the situation here. If people don`t take the matter in their hand, the policeman of the world with their cronies will come in the garb of human right to get the people scot free.

Seeing how blatantly he has abused.

On the other hand, who was telling that liberal thoughts are not tolerated in Pakistan. If this is called liberalism, I revoke my liberalism.

But this is the most reactionary article I have ever seen.

Agar Khuda Ko Gaali Dena or Sharab Pena Hi Liberalism Hai to Footpath Pur Pare Hue Junkies Numa Llogon Ki Wajah Se Duniya Ne Tarraqi Ki Hai.

mikhan #46 ``The desired freedom of speech is a borrowed terminology propagated by the west and its hulligans.``

Study the Quran and then, unless you have eyes but dont see (as is mentioned in the Quran is the case with non-believers who will get their due in good time) you will see that freedom of speech is the essence of Islam. Read the Quran and then curse the environment you grew up in and the people whose words you listened to instead of the Word of God for leading you astray. And then you will become a muslim.

I hadrly think the whole furore is only about blasphemy. The students in question then went and burned down two cinemas and stole money from there (according to a report in the police). And the Frontier Post has always been under fire (literally and metaphorically) for some reason or other. Almost all blasphemy cases in Pakistan seem to have some sort of ulterior motive behind them - in this instance I would guess vendetta against the owners of the paper. Then again, perhaps Peshawar lacks other types of entertainment venues.

Re: ahmadb #51

Cultural Imperialism

Who wants to live in a world where there is only one culture and one way of looking at life?

By definition the dominance of US/West in every aspect of human life in the emerging “global” community/market place or whatever you want to call it, is referred to as cultural imperialism. Intensified by Internet, satellite TV etc. it is threatening the cultural diversity and different ways of looking at life… I also blame it for rise in religious fanaticism….

The main thrust of US/Western cultural imperialism is sponsored by mega multinational corporates through their marketing drive in developing nations… and sometimes even in developed nations such as France.


I might write a bit more on this later… for now, let me tell you how it is tied to what has happened in Peshawar…. To make inroads, imperialists use various tactics to soften people’s attachment to existing traditions/culture… one of them is through print media… by pushing letters such as the one published in FP (btw, I don`t consider it an issue of freedom of expression... in the context of pakistani society such incidents don`t help in evolution of a more open, tolerant, and freer society), it becomes easier to then move to the next stage…. i.e. openly attack the very core of the culture by ridiculing all that is respected/revered by the people of that culture… for example, openly ridicule Mohammad, Quran and make fun of Allah… once such an environment is created who cares about culture and traditions that bound us to our roots? Then there is only one way of looking at life… the western way… whatever CNN tells us is the “truth”… whatever westerners do is the most sophisticated thing to do…

No doubt our methods of resisting the cultural imperialism are unsophisticated... poor, uneducated people of Pakistan are concious of their cherished traditions/culture but they are not as sophisticated as Europeans or even chinese... they react violently... as Bina points out there always elements who take advantage of peoples emotions and engage in ``uthai geeri`` etc. However, in essence, unless it is an organized attack by one of the religious groups in pakistan, people are making an statement (albeit in a misguided manner) that they want to be left alone... they want to pass on their traditions to their children...

More later.

Farangi-Kush

Freedom of speech is the slogan.

Lets see how many writers are hounded in West because they justify holocaust. Is justifying holocaust not a freedom of speech.

If it is said that justifying holocaust incites reaction against jews, then what the said article is doing. Inciting reaction against any one following a Nazi Prophet(Naoozo-Billah).

Remember Heider from Sweden when he was not allowed to take oath of Prime Minister.

What the mob did, did very right. They don`t have connection to world jewry and and finance capital to curb it within the BOUNDS OF LAW. LAWFUL MURDER IS freedom of speech.

Let the West be reminded that we will not tolerate the abuse of Prophet PBUH even if we have to die for it.

MZaidi #59

Leaving Koran for so called scholars has led to a situation where majority of Muslims are passing a life of duplicity unable to reconcile hard facts of life with religion. So probably leave this rhetoric to some Islamic gathering in Shikarpur or Jalalpur Jattan. You will find enough people to nod without understanding anything.

There are two sources even according to Koran. Koran and Sunnah. Many Ayah`s are presented by TAhmed in support of his point. Moreover over a period of 23 years a multitude of people have taunted and blasphemised prophet PBUH. How many executions did you see. Let your scholarship dig into it.

I only support the reaction to it not because of Islam, because I find no evidence for it, but it is a onslaught against Muslims, and their interests which need to be defended and the article`s sole aim seems to create an atmosphere of hatred for followers of Nazi (Naoozo-Billah).

Please tell your highly esteemed scholars to do something so that Muslims don`t lead a life of duplicity any more. What they have done in past is self evident. If you don`t know then until recently whole of the Muslim world was occupied physically by Western power with the blessings of so called scholars whom you are defending. And still it is occupied by West albeit not so conspicuously.

Please tell me why your scholars are against teaching Darwin`s theory and many of them are strictly against science and some even don`t believe that man has gone to moon. With all their knowledge if they are reaching such conclusions then ``Bakhsho Bhi Billi Chuha Landora Hi Bhala``. Let me act according to my own understanding of things. I will reconcile it better rather than living in duplicity by following your esteemed scholars.

Re: scout, #47

Scout, you are a very reasonable, rational and intelligent person. You obviously possess the most uncommon of senses: the common sense. I admire your thinking.

Talking of blasphemy, I`d say these fanatics have brought South Asia to a brink of disaster....

Consider the case of Mr. Mohemmed Yusuf Ali, who has been sentenced to death and 35 years of rigorous imprisonment, in an unfair and biased trial that was awarded to him after two years of essentially solitary confinement in a class C death cell, all for the charge of ``Indirectly committing blasphemy``....

Its high time the the intelligent and responsible muslims from among us put a check on these fundamentalist fanatics....

For more information please visit our web site http://www.wahe.net and support the cause to save an innocent human life.

BLASPHEMY LAW-THE TEXT

One must acknowledge the fact that Pakistan is a unique society as all other societies in the world. The purpose of making laws in any society is to legislate its moral values and sometimes even ettiquets. The simplest example would be a four way stop sign. Two drivers coming from opposite direction may be able to pass the crossroads even if the sign was not there but the law associated with a stop sign clearly defines each drivers` right along with his responsibility.

If law making werent such a big deal why not leave everything on individual to decide on what is right or wrong; Even a person with an IQ less than his body temperature can imagine the chaos that we will be in. The western moral values and the laws based on them must be geat-but only great for themselves. We have different set of values. We have every God given right to make laws according to our moral values.

The respect for Islam and unconditional love for our Prophet (peace be upon him), his comapanions, and his family supercedes everything in our lives and even our lives. What do we care if West, or Quadianies, or Christians, have a problem with what we hold dear.

The message to all of the above is clear. Do not under-estimate us. Do not test us. Do not tread on us. Do not judge us by the character of some black sheeps among us. We will strike back. We will respond to every threat of yours. We will give our lives for our dear ideals. Can you do that?



BLASPHEMY LAW-THE TEXT
Offenses relating to religion: Pakistan Penal code



295-B
Defiling, etc, of copy of Holy Quran. Whoever will fully defiles, damages or desecrates a copy of the Holy Quran or of an extract therefrom or uses it in any derogatory manner or for any unlawful purpose shall be punishable for imprisonment for life.



295-C
Use of derogatory remarks, etc; in respect of the Holy Prophet. Whoever by words, either spoken or written or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine.



298-A
Use of derogatory remarks, etc..., in respect of holy personages. Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo or insinuation, directly or indirectly defiles a sacred name of any wife (Ummul Mumineen), or members of the family (Ahle-bait), of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), or any of the righteous caliphs (Khulafa-e-Rashideen) or companions (Sahaaba) of the Holy Prophet description for a term which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both.



298-B
Misuse of epithet, descriptions and titles, etc. Reserved for certain holy personages or places.
Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other name) who by words, either spoken or written or by visible representation:
refers to or addresses, any person, other than a Caliph or companion of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), as ``Ameerul Momneen``, ``Khalifat-ul-Momneen``, ``Khalifat-ul-Muslimeen``, ``Sahaabi`` or ``Razi Allah Anho``;
Refers to or addresses, any person, other than a wife of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ummul-Mumineen;
refers to, or addresses, any person, other than a member of the family (Ahle-Bait) of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ahle-Bait; or
refers to, or names, or calls, his place of worship as Masjid; shall be punished with imprisonment or either description for a term which may extend to three years, and shall also be liable to fine.



Any person of the Qadiani group or Lahore group, (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other names), who by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, refers to the mode or from of call to prayers followed by his faith as ``Azan`` or redites Azan as used by the Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.




298-C
Persons of Qadiani group, etc, calling himself a Muslim or preaching or propagating his faith. Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or any other name), who directly or indirectly, posses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years ans shall also be liable to fine.