Hands Across The Border

I doubt that Naqshbandi ever read ``Maulana`` Edward Said, for had he read him, he would know that the pious Muslim Scholar he talks about is a christian not a Muslim

First of all Naqshbandi , lets get something clear

1) Edward Said, is a christian not a Muslim

2) Bernard Lewis is the most Pro Islam writer in the west.

3) I have read more Pious Muslim writers than you can imagine, and frankly its over piety that worries me, for it is exactly thats whats wrong...

They Islamicize whoever and whatever.

If you want the names of Muslim Historians and Social Commentators that I have read...

1) FazlurRahman

2) Syed Noman ul Haq

3) Ibn Ishaq

4) Ibne Khaldun

5) Ziya Gokalp

6) Behauddin ``What befell Sultan Yusuf``

I have also had the chance of reading ``Mutaliah-e-Pakistan``, ``Tarikh-e-Pakistan``, ``Tarikh-e-Islam`` etc.

Grow up Naqshbandi, and smell the cofee... you live in a real world and not an Islamic Utopia.....

anamika, previous

Misspelling a highlighted word..@#$%! hehehe..

#218 scout

I don`t know what to say to your vague accusations. Mine is not ``forced patriotism`` or fake loyalty. I am attached to India, wish to see it get better and I think the foundations are there already. Only things lacking are uncorruptible institutions. A dalit in India, through the power of universal adult franchise and a consitution GUARNTEEING equality can at least hope to become equal and indeed is, however

slowly. Same goes for religious minorities. There are no separate religious electorates that are deliberately structured to keep the minorities outside the power structure as in Pakistan.

Alluding to the subcontinent as a whole as if there are no significant differences between the countries there - you might as well have said the whole world is pathetic.

Sadhna, again, your ``tirades`` have been brilliant!

YLH

Thank you. You admit that you trust Bernard Lewis--a well-known orientalist of the worst kind--more than you do pious Muslims. What else is there to say? I at least am open minded enough to have READ Bernard Lewis--you on the other hand do not even wish to read the works by Muslim scholars...are you scared it might alter the pretty picture in your mind of Ataturk and co? Ever read Edward Said? Oh no, don`t read him...it might not agree with your ``I`ll blindly believe anything the West tells me`` mind whilst criticising traditional Muslims and follows of the madhhabs for ``blind following`` i.e. taqleed!

You might not know it but you are the fanatic...

but you are still an undergrad. right? You will learn insha Allah...man,read Shaykh Abd al Qadir al Murabit (formerly Ian Dallas) who is a professor at UK university and a islamic traditionalist, listen to Hamza Yusuf and Shaikh Nuh, read Aba al Hakim Murad (TJ Winter), and if you still think that what the historians of the West of Lewis` generation wrote about Islamic history was factual than Allah help you! (Post 60s and 70s western writers on Islam and its history tend to be much more neutral and accurate.)

For everyone including you: There is an excellent study of modern Western civilisation written by a former british,lawyer, called ``Dajjal: The Antichrist`` by Ahmad Thompson which I recommend to all people. I hope some of you will read it at least..

YLH

Thank you. You admit that you trust Bernard Lewis--a well-known orientalist of the worst kind--more than you do pious Muslims. What else is there to say? I at least am open minded enough to have READ Bernard Lewis--you on the other hand do not even wish to read the works by Muslim scholars...are you scared it might alter the pretty picture in your mind of Ataturk and co? Ever read Edward Said? Oh no, don`t read him...it might not agree with your ``I`ll blindly believe anything the West tells me`` mind whilst criticising traditional Muslims and follows of the madhhabs for ``blind following`` i.e. taqleed!

hamidm #217

I`m sure in the US, some Republicans hate some Democrats(or say the pro-life guys hate the pro-choice guys) with the same intensity some in our countries hate each other. The difference is the rules they have to play by, which are unrelentingly unchanging in the developed world. I`m guessing these groups would adopt `other` methods of getting back at each other if the system ever allowed any opportunity.

I do believe(and people like sac will mock me) that uninterrupted electoral democracy with no monkeying-around with a fair constitution may help alleviate such problems which always get acerbated during times of political disarray anywhere in the world.

If ordinary citizens get a firm grip on their own power and get the opportunity to berate their leaders(and their mullahs) about mundane and urgent matters like jobs, prices and law and order, these identity-related matters would have to share air time and might get de-emphasized.

Sadhana

anamika #197, ``For all their faults, Indian secularism and democracy are at least an attempt at equality.``

My dear anamika, attempts are farces, and that is exactly what dirty old desi men do, whether they are in India or Pakistan.

I suggest you drop the forced patriotism and see the subcontinent for what it is.

sadna #212

........ i absolutely agree with you that the way pakistani law AND its pious people like asif-naqshbandi treat non-muslims, and perceived non-muslims, is shameful and deserves the condemnation of the world .... on this issue i will also accept the criticism from the two-faced tribe of the great thespian, gandhi-ji...... i will also grant you that india, at least in legislation, has made a lot of progress whereas pakistan has regressed to the very edge of a sixth century abyss .........

....... there is a qadiani family that has lived on our street for as long as i can remember ..... for years nobody really cared, and half the people didn`t even know that bashir sahib was a qadiani ........ mrs bashir, after all her work was done, spent her mornings chit-chatting with the other ladies and mister bashir, a quite unassuming man, grew a beard and got promoted to grade twenty ...... we played with their children and went to their weddings and funerals and exchanged dishes of halwa and firni on shab-i-barat .... and nobody cared ....... but something happened - a few years ago my sister, who we spent a lot of time and money on educating at the best catholic schools, casually told my mother that she shouldn`t associate too much with the bashirs because they were ahmedis.......... needless to say the poor girl left the house in tears and wasn`t heard from in a month ........ but it is scary

Shammi #207, 209

I don`t mean to sound rude or arrogant. But it isn`t easy keeping your composure when someone like Sadna is around. I will try to ignore her from now on.

In my opinion, if the Kashmir dispute is ever solved it will be through the trifurcation of the state of J & K. Basically that will lead to giving the people of the state what they want. AJK and NAs will join Pakistan, Jammu and Ladakh will become a part of India and the Vale of Kashmir will be given outright independence from both India and Pakistan.

A variation on this solution was proposed by a Congress party leader in a speech to the Asia Society last year. The only difference was that instead of becoming an independent state, he proposed that the Vale be given maximum autonomy with soveriegnty over it being shared by Pakistan and India.

I don`t think that Pakistanis are going to be too keen about sharing soveriegnty with India over anything. But it`s an example of the kind of constructive solutions that even Indians can come up with, instead of the `integral part of India` mantra that impresses no one.

I believe Secularism means the ``divorce of church and state``...which means the end of Mahatma and Pandit rule... not just equality.

In essence you are saying that a country which chops off the hand of a thief regardless of religion caste or creed (like Saudi Arabia) is still secular, for it wont be secular when it discriminated on the abovementioned basis.

Let us not twist words, let us admit it, both Pakistan and India are unfortunately not secular, however India pretends to be whereas Pakistan pretends to be Islamic.

Yasser Hamdani

Naqshbandi

I understand this chimera of fiqh much better than a fool like yourself can. You have just proved my point... You are a revisionist fool!

Yasser

Naqshbandi,

I am afraid, you are the one who is reading revised History... No I dont think I trust Naqshbandi.com more than Bernard Lewis.

You are the cause of the downfall of Islam.

Yasser

hamidm #208
Thats right, make Pakistanis of other religions second class citizens and blame that too on the horrible banias.

And inform your own countrymen like the gentleman ylh that secularism means equality in sight of law, not irreligiousness.

Sadhana

jay #202 If I was in your shoes, I would worry more about the Pakistani liberals as you call them, than the Pakistani mullahs. Pakistani liberals (by which I assume is meant anyone who opposes the mullah) know how to kick the behinds of Kafirs - whether the Kafir is you or a mullah.

Macgupta,

I think Hamidm has all the right to use whatever oxymoron he wishes to, ... afterall Indians most shamelessly have been using ``Secular-Democratic India`` for over 53 years!. Now that is an oxymoron which has a legal status in the constitution. Why is it that you Indians have the right to use the oxymoron ``Secular Democratic India`` legally and constitutionally, even when your father of the nation is a Mahatma and a Hindu saint, and your first prime minister is a Pandit, and we the Pakistanis cant use the word ``secular Pakistan`` unofficially?

To the ``secular`` Indians, I can only say ``Physician heal thyself``.

Yasser Hamdani