Hands Across The Border

shammi:

if Pakistan had any self respect, it would not provide military and intelligence support to the Taliban and it would withdraw recognition of the Taliban. So criticism of Pakistan is spot on.

Pakistan is to Afghanistan what America is to Israel & worse.

krashid:

I have not supported and do not support temple construction at Babri Masjid for a number of reasons. Having said that, this unprovoked destruction of Buddha`s statues does provide support for the temple construction crowd - they can argue: if the Afghans can destroy in the 21st century, why is it so hard to believe that they could destroy in the 16th century? Anti idol-worship is very central to Islam and it is easy to see the medeival warriors being infused with this spirit. And there is absolutely no controversy about ruins of temples at places like the Qutb Minar in Delhi. And dont misunderstand me, I know religious tolerance is also central to Islam but how people interpret Islam is the key point. God proposes but man disposes.

Naqshbandi:

Thanks for the reply. I think that killing someone for saying something, no matter what it is, is wrong. However, an eye for an eye is somewhat palatable and justified. I think your kind of attitude eventually leads to anarchy. Realistically speaking and looking at all of history there have been all kinds of people in this world. If everyone (muslims and non-muslims) took your attitude of killing someone who insulted their beliefs or their prophets their would be murder everywhere. You have your rights to your beliefs, but when your belief sanctions the death of someone for uttering some words that you find disagreeable, I think you consider yourself too powerful.

Theres an interesting story, I hope you see the relation although it has a christian setting. In a monastary in Austria a monk got angry at a fellow monk over some issue. The head monk (for lack of a beter word) requested the perturbed monk to forgive the fellow monk. The monk refused, at this the head monk threw his hands up towards the sky and said something to the effect that Jesus, thanks for all your guidance, but we do not need you anymore, we have now reached the stage where we can judge our fellow man`s thoughts, intentions, and actions. at this the perturbed monk realized his arrogance and forgave the fellow monk.

Although I believe, the story is not applicable in the case of crimes or there would be no deterrent, I do think that it applies to the blasphemy issue, because I believe the punishment far outweighs the `crime`.

On a side note, I think one should try to differentiate between spiritual Islam and political Islam (the same way their is a difference between the soul and the body) and realize that many people have used Islam to further their cause in this world, not the hereafter.

Violence is not a solution to blasphemy and will only make people detest the Prophet (PBUH) that you love so much, because you atribute this violence to his (PBUH) teachings. In this way I believe you are doing a disservice to Islam. islam itself came down in stages to make it easier for teh people to adopt.

Anyway, good luck on your search for truth, for Allah knows that not many have found it.

Peace.

krashid:

I have never stated that an idol is more precious than a human life. And how has breaking an idol saved a human life?

The Babri Masjid destruction, a matter of shame for me even though I have never supported it, was at least for the expressed purpose of reconstruction of a temple, The idol destruction is simply for destruction. As for the riots after Babri Masjid, nobody is defending that.

Is Pakistan going to withdraw support for the Taliban or not based on this outrage? In India, BJP governments all over India were dismissed after Babri Masjid, the coalition has made it clear that they dont support the temple construction plus there are court cases going on against the destruction.

To me, the Buddha statues of Bamiyan are more precious than the pages of the print edition of the Koran or Geeta belted out by XYZ printing press. I`d much rather destroy one of those books than these statues. Sue me for worshipping a false god.

Idol-lover and proud of it!

Shammi 283

Even though you tried to down-play everything but for an Indian this is a giant leap. At least you recognize the problems and you know where to start looking for solutions. I think it is first time ever on Chowk that I have seen a relatively fair-minded Indian. Please always bear in mind that honesty and contempt do not go together. I have read about your goal i.e. you want to bring two people together (in one of yur posts)- I would say that it is the noblest of all deeds- also bear in mind that peace without justice is never possible. So stick with honesty and justice. Let go of contempt.

shammi #283
`` I think that your criticism of Pakistan`s religious extremism (as an extension of the Taleban - Buddha statue controversy) is ill-founded.``

I resent very much your putting words in my mouth which I never said. I have not criticised Pakistanis religious extremism in the Buddha statue context at all, if i did why would I I speak against macguptas comments on the other board and suggest that India and Pakistan cooperate in saving the remaining statues.

Re the Taleban and mob rule in India, I have criticised both on many occasions in different contexts. I donot owe you or anyone else here an explanation, it is out of respect for you that I am saying so much.
I suggest if you wish to show your hatred for me, stick to facts or personal abuse like everyone else.

Sadhana

Jay, Sadna:

I think that your criticism of Pakistan`s religious extremism (as an extension of the Taleban - Buddha statue controversy) is ill-founded. First, the Pakistan govt. HAS openly criticized the Taleban -- a key ally. This would not have been easy, but yet they did it. Second, Indians should not crow with glee at the embarrassment that the Taleban are unwittingly bringing to themselves and use it to score points, because after all the Babri Mosque was destroyed in India, too (and in contravention of a stay order from the courts!). The govt. of India was as powerless against mob rule then, and as haunted by the shame that it wrought upon itself, as future generations of Afghanis may well be one day. Further, no lives are likely to be lost in Afghanistan as a result of this (or anywhere else), while nearly 2000 died in riots in India in 1992.

Truth #272

Since your name is truth. And you have spoken truth on breaking the treasured idols.

Can you speak the truth on killing and massacre of people in India.

Or idols are more sacred than human life.

sadna #280

Now that is much better that you have recognized your problems. And it will be even better if you deal with your own problems first-the very problems that you just recognized.

I give you some hints:

1. Hindu religious nuts are a bigger problem to India than Talibans. These nuts are in power and they have penetrated deep into your sequeeelar polity. Direct your energies to resolve that problem first.

2. The whole subcontinent is on the verge of nuclear holocaust if one of these nuts presses the button.

3. Your minorities are suffering in all walks of life. Their lives are threatened and they face dangers of mass extermination at the hands of these nuts. The Babri Mosque massacars may be repeated any minute these nuts step into the mosque compound. Muslims in India are under siege. Try to solve that problem first.

4. I wont say religiously sanctioned discrimantion under which humans are divided into inhuman and subhuman catagories. Try to solve that problem. Even the natural disasters like Earthquake couldnt break this barrier- work on that problem first. But I wont stress if its your religious practice.

5. Try to solve the problems of wife and widow burning first in India-check the human rights sites; you are burning 40 women per day-then give us sermons on honor killings.

6. Stop genocide in Kashmir.

Urstruly #277
I see you are unable to give a refutation of a single thing I said. btw, get rid of the quaint ntiquated idea that calling someone an adjectived Hindu is an insult, its sounds very pathetic and just doesnot work. As far as lecturing goes, I was not lecturing and anyway chowk gets so much of it from you, how can you be so besharam as to object? Still on besharmi, how long will the Hindus and Muslims of India keep providing people like you excuses to resist solutions of what are uniquely your problems?

What do the Indian legislatures have to do with honor killings in Pakistan? If you donot keep informed on what happens in the Indian Parliament and legislative assemblies, thats no reason to use insulting language. I donot fool myself you really want to know what`s what in India. If you did, you would know many problems are similar in scope and severity, in India the outdated traditionalists` seige attitudes(like yours) are being broken down by law and are condemned in Parliament, including mosque demolitions or communal riots.

I can imagine yours is the common attitude that activists in Pakistan encounter from those in positions of influence, either someone is a commie, or a irreligious liberal or a Hindu or a Quaidani or a West-funded NGO selling the country down the river or defaming the country. Only an unquestioning allegiance to entrenched authority (or being a ditto member of a Saudi-funded NGO) is a sign of puremindedness. To the extent that, forget about resistance to an individual`s openly expressed opinions, larger groupings like influential political parties are unable to support even commonsense social reform even on those issues unconnected to preserving religious purity like honor killings.

Sadhana

Chotu, I beleive that if Haq Nawaz killed the shia diplomat from Iran (or anyone else) he should be hanged if it was proven that he did it. So, I agree with it.

Even if he had killed a Qadiani--I would say the same for as Muslims we must obey the law and islam does not allow one to randomly kill another person living in your land.

Though I consider Qadianis as kaafirs (and most Shias as kaafirs too-though not Tafzili Shias)I do not condone the random killing of someone who is a QAdiani or a Shia or any other faith. Such random killings-as are taking place--have no place in Islam and are probably politically motivated.

Hope that answers your question. You know, I -and most ``Islamists`` are NOT anarchists but law-abiding citizens.

[The only killing by an individual which i would defend would be in the case of someone who killed someone for insulting Our Beloved Prophet sal allahu alayhi wa sallam ( and only if it could be proved that he did insult His Excellency) out of ishq-e-Rasool like Ghazi Ilm uddin Shaheed killed the hindu auhor who wrote a book ridiculing our beloved Nabi alayhi salato salaam during the time of the british raj and then admitted it and was hung in turn. This is because the person of Our Beloved Master Muhammad al Mustafa sal allahu alayhi wa sallam is totally and absolutely sancrosanct and the shar`iat ruling on one who insults Huzoor Paak is death. Even so, it would be better for the State to kill such a person than for individuals to take the law into their own hands.]

Reply 267

Kabuliwallah

hmmmm saris on Brigade Road?? looking for all the wrong things in the wrong places.

Well if it is saris that you want - you should try some of the ``un``hip places

I like your style - the way you sprinkle your posts with the happenings in and around ... : )

Polo - i hate to tell you this - is said to have originated in Iran and the Mughals are said to have introduced India to Polo or v v. So that would make it akin to cricket. disagreable all over again!!!

aicha

Sadna # 275

Does your lecture include Hindu-stani Senate and lower houses too, when they refused to raprimand four genocidal maniacs who have murdered 6000 Muslim men woman and childern during Babri Masjid incident? Was Prime Butcher of India i.e. Vajpayee defending their position in front of the houses, in Dec.? Is it somehow different than defending the practice of wife beating, oh I mean systematic elimination of minorities?

Baysharam Hinhuo you insult the notion of ``Republic`` and you have audacity to give us lectures on it?

And BTW I know Senate did slap the wrist of those four Hindu religious nuts who are still in the key political positions in Vajpayee government.

#275
``...Such a measure allows government agencies like the police, local administration, social workers, individuals affected, and others to proceed the best they can in activism against a social practice without the additional burden of having to fight official/legal/political ambiguity/resistance as well...``

tahmed321 #273

It would be serious if a US Senator was a wife-beater. But, it would be of much worse significance for the US, if a Senator defended the practice of wife-beating in the US Senate.

There is a difference between institutions and individuals, thats Jay`s point. A Senator and Senate proceedings are representative of millions of people and each individual of those 120 millions doesnot have to sign a petition, thats the meaning of a Republic.

Thats why failure to condemn a heinous practice in the representative house of the Republic by people`s representatives carries so much significance.

Now either the Senators were truly representing the point of view of their constituents regarding honor killings. Or they were acting on their own compulsions and passing on this `tauhamat` to the people of Pakistan by refusing even to pass even a resolution condemning the practice.

In either case, its a serious reflection on the inability of institutions to recognise heinous practices as such and perhaps the inability of ordinary Pakistanis to get their institutions and their representatives to reflect their values even on such matters of life and death.

Bride-burning is against the law in India, and is accepted as heinous in principle by the government and people`s representatives(which is why a law could be passed). Such a measure allows government agencies like the police, local administration, social workers, individuals affected, and others to proceed the best they can in activism against a social practice without the additional burden of having to fight official ambiguity/resistance as well.

An unambigous recognition by the Pakistani government or lawmakers will strengthen the hands of all those in the field fighting the practice of honor killing.

Sadhana

Jay: ``You should not forget that the 98% percent moderate people of pakistan, belonging to the PML and PPP parties representing the `democratic` forces refused to condemn the honour killing. ``

What are expecting, a petition signed by 120 million people? And would that petition put an end to honor killings? Would you similarly call for 1 billion Indians to sign a petition condemning the practice of bride burning in order to earn your blessings? And what is this thing about ``peaceful and prosperous`` Pakistan you say you disagree with? You wish to have a violent and impoverished Pakistan? You think that will be to the benefit of the India?

I am sorry but you make no sense at all. You are simply blinded by a desire to see trouble in Pakistan so you can crow about it, and lack an ounce of decency or common sense. People like you are your own worst enemies. I think we can end this discussion now, and you may carry on with your usual rubbish.