Hands Across The Border

Re: krashid

``There is no concept of untouchability in Islam ala Hinduism.``

There are only concepts of kill-the-kafirs, marry 4 women, and line-up with some guy`s behind in your face 5 times a day.

Re: Scout

``...India has, neither does it have poverty quite in the range that India has,``

Last time I checked Pakistan`s per capita adjusted was now below India`s. So take your foot out of your mouth on that one.

``neither do we have a rigid caste structure inherent in the country`s religion etc. etc...``

Yeah, you just have institutionalized and legalized discrimination based on religion. If you ain`t a Mooslim, your vote doesn`t count the same in Pakistan. Oh but wait, there is no voting so who cares, right?

``I beg you again, for the sake of your collective spirit, get the ``saray jahan say acha Hindustan humara`` mentality out of your head.``

Well, you know what....it may not be saaray jahan say accha, but it sure as hell is in a lot better shape than Pakistan.

tahmed #238

http://www.akj.org.uk/gallery/display.asp?b=t&item=yatra1999

jay #231

``Already mullahs are asking CE to surrender power to them.``

They have been saying that for over 40 years (the first few years their prophet Maudoodi was sitting in India with the certainty tht Pakistan would fail);

``Neither in pak news papers, nor on the chowk, for that matter no-where have I seen something positive about pakistan.``

No news is good news, and no news also does not make it to the papers. Let me tell you some good news about Pakistan since you seem to be missing it: Two days ago I met a Sikh friend of mine who had just returned from Pakistan - he told me Pakistan and the people there were totally different from what he imagined, so instead of seven days as planned for visiting holy sites he extended his visit to fourteen days. He made special mention of the great hospitality people showed to him - and he went from Lahore to Islamabad to Peshawar to Khyber Pass. Another example: It took the government one day to round up 300 mullahs (see Dawn of a couple of days ago). I dont think these examples will stop you from continuing to sing to the mullahs tune about the physical force through which they will take over Pakistan. But that is not going to happen, no matter how much you people (mullahs as well as Indian chauvinists) day dream about it.

``I hope there still moderate pakistanis left to make an impact,``

Every society - including India and Pakistan - has about 98 percent moderate people and 2 percent fanatics. So spare me this moral high ground.

``In the mean time let me wish you the best.``

That is kind of you, but your best wishes mean nothing given the animosity you bear for the people and the country I love. I would prefer if you wished my country the best instead of pointing with obvious glee month after month to the negative news items about Pakistan.

On some earlier discussion of one of Hamidm`s posts:

Hamidm is a poet. He is entitled to say some things that we may not always like. I don`t think he meant that India and Pakistan are identical in every way. Even if he did, he has the right to do. We will then just disagree.

Remember the greatest Hamidm of them all -- Kabir? Which Indian here does not hold him in the highest regard?

Critics with sound judgement and good hearts should always be respected...even when we don`t agree with some of the things they say. Engage them in debates if your view is very different from theirs, but with respect -- an intelligent good hearted critic is a precious human being.

Is that mindset not what has made us a unique people?

Hamidm, Sir, please write on with gusto in your own inimitable style, criticizing whosoever you like howsoever you like. We won`t always agree with you, but we are all the better having you with us on Chowk.

Response to YLH, Dionysus, and Hamidm:

YLH:

You seem uninterested in exploring ways by which India and Pakistan could reduce tensions by jointly surrendering sovereignty over certain matters. I will not press the matter, even though some of the reasons you gave are rather flimsy, while the benefits will be large and tangible. This, to me, is an opportunity being missed.

You also deride India`s secularism as being `Mahatma and Pandit rule`. This is a gross simplification of the matter, and for all their personal faults and failures Gandhi and Nehru (whom you appear to be referring to) were not religious bigots. If you believe that they were, then you are barking the wrong tree. Further, Gandhi had no role in framing the Constitution, and held no elected or appointed office in India. You should also take note, that the Constitution does not ask office bearers to renounce their faith -- it only asks them to not take faith into consideration in the discharge of their duties. It is to be expected that India`s secular constitution will be strongly challenged (sometimes violently) by those who have no faith in secular politics or by some who suddenly found themselves enjoying the right to vote in 1947 when for generations before their expectation from government had been negligble, especially in our part of the world where religion has been such a strong influence in public affairs. The fact that the Constitution has withstood those challenges, is a glowing testament to India`s dedication to secular ideals.

Is the system infallible and perfect? No. That is why even the US Constitution in its preamble states, ``We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union...`` The US Constitution correctly identifies that conditions are far from perfect and the Constitution must make an allowance for improvement, as social standards evolve.

Will the din and noise of a democracy experiencing a struggle between the secularists and the religious faithful disappear? Will the religious faithful surrender, and cease testing the limits of constitutional authority? No, never. But as long as the secular constitution remains a guide, things will likely not get out of hand.

Dionysus:

I like your proposals. For them to see the light of day, peace needs to come to Kashmir first. Hopefully, that will happen one day, and you will get a chance at being proved right.

Hamidm:

You said, ``you are also pissing off secular pakistanis whose hatred for india is simply based on old fashioned nationalism ``

As long as there are people who continue to harbor hatred in their hearts, they will remain deaf to the wisdom of others. Since I cannot (or do not wish to) respond in kind (i.e. by hating them in return), I will simply speak the truth as I see it, and will not mind their growing hatred towards me. I will anyday prefer to communicate with a love-filled religious fundamentalist, than a hate-filled secularist! You see, these people whom you call hate-filled secularists, are not secular at all if they remain intolerant of the beliefs of others. Secularism does not imply that you replace hatred based upon religion with hatred based upon some other trait.

Sorry to digress but this is very important.

The cricketing World has been orphaned. Sir Donald Bradman passed away. May his soul rest in peace.

Yasser Hamdani

scout #223

``Yeah we have our political/economic/religous problems, we`ll deal with them. Don`t get all hoity toity over them.

And please, for future reference, compare yourself to China (almost equal in population and IT professionals migrating out of the country) not Pakistan.``

I have no wish to turn this into a urinating contest. You seem to be having an argument with a phantom bringing up points that no one - leave alone myself - have raised and rebutting them.

Get back on track and we shall continue.

anamika #222, ``Alluding to the subcontinent as a whole as if there are no significant differences between the countries there - you might as well have said the whole world is pathetic.``

Of course there are differences. Pakistan doesn`t have an AIDS epidemic as India has, neither does it have poverty quite in the range that India has,

neither do we have a rigid caste structure inherent in the country`s religion etc. etc...

Yeah we have our political/economic/religous problems, we`ll deal with them. Don`t get all hoity toity over them.

And please, for future reference, compare yourself to China (almost equal in population and IT professionals migrating out of the country) not Pakistan.

I beg you again, for the sake of your collective spirit, get the ``saray jahan say acha Hindustan humara`` mentality out of your head.

YLH,

I KNOW Edward Said is a Christian...I was trying to point you to his book Orientalism for you seem to have believed everything the Orientalists told you about the Muslim World and its history, certainly vis-a-vis the great Ottoman Empire. And excuse me but if Bernard Lewis was the most pro-Islam writer in the West of his generation it should tell you a lot about the others shouldn`t it! His dismissiveness of Islamic philosophy in his histoy of western philosophy is typical of his generation...and yet this man you quote to me as an authority!!

You need to grow up and live in the real world not the world the mass-media has brainwaished you into believing is`real`...

It is good to see you have read some Muslim writers....so try to read some books on aqaid and fiqh by them as well. How about Imam Ghazzali`s Ya Ayyuhal Walad..O My Son...Or, Reliance of The Traveller by Shaikh Nuh Keller who is a graduate of one of the top US universities (Berkeley)...

tahmed 210,

I wish you you were true, but the reports from pakistan clearly shows that mullahs are on the rise. Already mullahs are asking CE to surrender power to them. The articles, the talks and the fears of people have a strange habit of coming true, something like self fulfilling profesies. Neither in pak news papers, nor on the chowk, for that matter no-where have I seen something positive about pakistan. I hope there still moderate pakistanis left to make an impact, but I wont stop my present task of putting lines on pak maps, about what it should be after iraquisation.

In the mean time let me wish you the best.

jay

Humsab #227, I second that. Beneath all the sarcasms, do you really see his bleeding heart for his country or the people of sub-continent like Bhisma? Hamidm`s problem is that he does not write as often as he should, may be time is the constraint, just pondering!

By the way who are the Kauravas in this war?

Regards

ylh #227

I am also observing that brotherm Naqsbandis posts are getting more SCHOLARLY and less FACTUAL.

Have you read Tariq Azia or George Habbash.

Suna Hai Dono Khatna Karwa Chukein Hain. Edward Said Ka Bhi Bharosa Nahin. Check Karna Pare Ga.

I am amazad at your reading skills.

Ikees Saal Ki Umar Mein Itni Kitabein Karishma Hai.

Whatever HamidM says, I would recommend Rutgers, if it produces book loving people.

Or you are an exception.

The proliferation of Anti YLH type in Rytgers make me think that.

Humsab #227

Abbaji is still suffering from his old age association with Hindus as my mother is. It is as simple as that.

There is no concept of untouchability in Islam ala Hinduism.

Dear Sadna

Come on. Not hamidm. He is BHISHAM PITAMAH watching this perennial fight between Kauravs and Pandavs and in his own way trying to denounce both.

So, now when you watch him waving nationalistic flags, give a broad smile and do fold your hands and seek his blessing for your win. You never know, he may come up with, `Tathaastu`.

Meanwhile, carry on your battle with others you know who. Best of Luck.

hamidm ji

Bania? Well, I think business has to be conducted without emotions. Otherwise, one is left with only emotions and no business.

As for muslim paani and hindu paani, let me narrate you an incident that happened two years ago. We had gone to celebrate Eid with our close friend who is professsor in IIT. On a previous visit, we had seen his father (an eminent lawyer) with them. So, I checked up his whereabouts. We were told that since it was Ramzan and they had a hindu maid, so abaaji decided to go back to his nativ place as he was not inclined to take anything touched by a hindu. All of us laughed and then I said that it was a great tit for tat for both sides. Now, muslims won`t be able to claim that it is only hindus who are horrible because they themselves believe in this untouchability. And for hindus, it was slap right across the face to be told that they are untouchables. And I do believe that there are religious instructions about not sharing anything with Unbelievers.

Regards

ylh #196

Presenting slave girl to guest in Fatawa-e-Alamgiri.

Doesn`t it make him MORE RAH (Rahmatullah Aleh)