Hands Across The Border

Kabuliwallah,

Firstly I dont accept anything about Islam or Muslims from a non-Muslim source as being true UNLESS OR UNTIL I HAVE HAD IT CORRABORATED BY A TRUSTWORTHY MUSLIM SOURCE. Secondly, even, if, for the sake of argument, we accept that Mahmud of Ghazna was a bisexual, that is between him and his Lord and though it is a horrendous sin in Islam it alone does not take one out of Islam and therefore he is still a Muslim which makes him superior to any kafir. Thirdly, I am a big sinner myself and I do not judge the iman of Muslims who are accepted by the Ummah as being righteous as is the case with him; indeed i accept all those as Muslims who say they are Muslims UNLESS THEY DISPLAY IN ANY FORM BY THEIR WORDS OR ACTIONS SOMETHING WHICH ACCORDING TO THE AQIDAH OF AHLE SUNNAH CONSTITUTES KUFR (e.g the Qadianis)BASED ON THE ACCEPTED UNDERSTANDING OF THE QU`RAN AND HADITH.

NB: Because Mahmud and Ayaz (his servant) were very close the modern western historians, unable to accept that two men can love each other in a non-sexual way as well, have automatically projected their own sicknesses onto a great historical figure.

re: Asif Naqshbandi # 335

Mahmud Ghaznavi is accepted by historians (Western scholars) as a bisexual...how do you feel about that?...wanted to hear your view

Reply #: 335 Asif Naqshbandi

``Hazrat Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi was a great ruler and king who has become immortalised in Sufi literature as the model ruler and kind king. Rumi, Hafiz, Iqbal, Ghalib, all make references to him``.

I feel like puking all over the keyboard. Mahmud of Ghaznavi was a great ruler, comeon, give me a break.

sridhar.

AN # 335

Please read my post from begining. The reference is there. The hindu professor is just quoting the western historian, Will Durant, and the history book was published in 1935 before India was partitioned or anybody had heard about fundamentalism.

By the way the ``The history of civilization`` is a multi-volume set and has all the references for any one interested in knowing more about their ancestors` deeds - both good and bad.

pardesi---that quote from a biased hindu author of history from a college no one has heard of shows nothing other than the bigotry of the hindu authors [not all but most] when they are wrting about muslim rulers of hindustan and islam...

no references are given and no sources referred too either....

Hazrat Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi was a great ruler and king who has become immortalised in Sufi literature as the model ruler and kind king. Rumi, Hafiz, Iqbal, Ghalib, all make references to him....If he was as this hindu portrays him why would these great sufis like Rumi and Attaar use him as a model??

Aik hi saff mein khaRay ho gaye Mahmud o Ayaz

Na raha banda aur na koi banda-nawaz!

Kabuliwallah # 333, Truth # 308

Sat Sri Akal .. Talking about old Indian temples and Taliban invaders, here is a letter in today’s Wall Street Journal (3/8/01):

Talibanism is nothing new. It is at least a thousand years old, as the following quotation from Will Durant’s ``The story of Civilization`` Vol. 1, published in 1935, makes clear:

``The Mohammedan Conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precarious thing, whose delicate complex of order and liberty, culture and peace may at any time be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within .. In the year 997 a Turkish chieftain by the name of Mahmud became sultan of the little state of Ghazni, in eastern Afghanistan .. Pretending a holy zeal for destroying Hindu idolatry, he swept across the frontier with a force inspired by a pious aspiration for booty. He met the unprepared Hindus .. slaughtered them, pillaged their cities, destroyed their temples and carried away their the accumulated treasures of centuries .. Each winter Mahmud descended into India, filled his treasure chest with spoils, and amused his men with full freedom to pillage and kill; each spring he returned to his capital richer than before. At Mathura .. He took from the temple its statues of gold encrusted with precious stones .. He expressed his admiration for the architecture of the great shrine, judged that its duplication would cost one million dinars and the labour of two hundred years, and then ordered it to be soaked with naphta and burnt to the ground. Six years later he sacked another opulent city of northern India, Somnath (destroyed its fabulous temple and broke the idol of the deity with his club), killed all its fifty thousand inhabitants, and dragged its wealth to Ghazni. In the end he became, perhaps, the richest king that history has ever known``

K. R. Nair, Profesor of History, West Virginia Wesleyan College, Buckhannon, W. Va.

re: Truth # 308

If it is any consolation, Ranjith Singh had the gates of Somnath temple brought back to Punjab from Ghazni and installed at the Harmandar Sahib in Amritsar...it was a symbolic gesture, to show that Indians can kick Afghan hiney too, not because he wanted to take revenge for Somnath`s destruction...though, on his death bed, under the influence of Brahmins at his court, he turned to Hindu customs

Kabuli

Interesting account of events preceding Partition:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/070301/detOPI01.asp

Correction: ``...we are still a nascent nation where its not yet cast in stone that we have a very strong bond which can withstand all the above (modernistic) concessions to individual/group rights without senseless violence and loss of human lives, caused by pure emotion or by political maneuvers of opportunistic power seekers. And we still donot have a unimpeachable and competent law-and-order machinery to prevent or punish such violence ``

truth #329
Looking at it as
a) purely legal issue : individual`s right of expression, or right to do as he pleases with his own property or as
b)a purely common sense argument : your abusing my religion doesnot hurt my religion, it hurts the abuser more than it hurts me(for eg ali1). One cannot overregulate behaviours, etc etc etc

These arguments work only in isolation from India`s realities. The fact is that the relationship between large numbers of Hindus and Muslims is in question, and we are still a nascent nation where its not yet cast in stone that we have a very strong bond which can withstand all the above (modernistic) concessions to individual/group rights. The terms of that important relationship are still up in the air and have not yet stabilized. So all those who want to preserve it have to be careful.

Still on the relationship metaphor a marriage is not a marriage merely by meeting legal definations.

Most important its obvious to me at least that the VHP is not exercising its right to protest against the Taliban in its own way, it has real malafide intentions toward Indian Muslims and it is by deliberate choice that its members chose desecration of the Quran and not some other way of so many others(like the other groups) to protest the Taliban`s actions. They are by such actions trying to set the terms of the Hindu-Muslim relationship based on their hateful rhetoric for which I have only abhorrence. So I cannot excuse them their real intent, in the name of the right of expression.

One felt the same way (to a much much lesser degree, of course) about Murad Ali Baig`s article about India/Hindusim which is still on the front page.

Sadhana

truth #327
I have to agree with shammi #326 here. To insult the faith of many million Indians for actions by the Taliban about which they can do nothing is an extremely perverted thing to do, in my view. Its just like the mindless destruction by invaders, sadism in desecration.

I really believe the government should get the VHP to reveal its source of funds. Only people far away and safe in Western suburbia(a few examples of whom I have met) can afford to fund communal hatred of this type in India.

Sadhana

Re: krashid #324

My point, exactly. That is why these guys need to be locked up under the law. They are on a self-destructive path, and will create a lot of harm in the process.

krashid:

if you can accuse in any name, you will do it. hypocrite.

Shammi #320

It is only a matter of understanding.

If they can rape and kill Muslims (in any name), and demolish the babri mosque (in any name) and now burning the copy of Koran (in any name).

Tomorrow they will put all Muslims to death and also will find an excuse for it.

There is an old saying. ``Oongli Pakarne Ko Do To Pohncha Pakar Lete Hain``

(You give a finger to hold and they will hold arm).

Truth, Anamkia:

Truth, urning your personal copy in the confines of your house is one thing. Burning it on the streets publicly has only one aim -- to hurt the sentiments of another community. I cannot be supportive of that, especially when the consequences can be quite violent

Anamika, the Nazis also publicly burned books (especially the ones by Jewish authors) in large demonstrations and rallies. I would rather have the VHP protest on the merits of the matter (the Quran is not the issue), and I would rather that they neither burn the Quran or attack Muslims. The fact that someone chooses to burn the constitution of India, is not reason enough to burn the Quran.

#320 shammi

You are being unnecessarily angry. Not a good way to focus your energy. Burning the Quran, Bible or a copy of the Gita is not the same as what the Nazis did. They EVISCERATED parts of the cultural heritage of a people.

I`d rather that the VHP burned a copy of the Quran than physically attacked Indian Muslims. Do you know that whenever any regional party is angry at the Center, one of the first things they do is burn a copy of the Indian Constitution?

Shammi:

If anybody wants to destroy their personal copy of anything, it is their business. If you went out, bought a Geeta, and burnt it, that would be your business. I may question your judgement but it is your freedom of expression. It is like flag burning, which is constitutionally protected in America. I believe in that freedom.

It only becomes a Nazi activity if the state burns any copy of a holy book or an individual burns your copy of it.

Re: Anamika

I would rather focus energies on getting the VHP under control:

``NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Hindu hard-liners in India burned a copy of the Muslim holy book, the Koran, Monday as international outrage grew at the destruction by Afghanistan`s Taliban rulers of historic statues in the name of Islam.``

``As Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar defended his destruction order, a German minister compared the attack on the statues to the book-burning purges of the Nazis and an Afghan news agency said Japan had warned the drought and war-ravaged nation aid could be hit.``

I think that the Koran-burning falls in the same category of Nazi crimes, as the German minister indicated.

krashid:

But YOU are not Iranian. What do YOU think? I told you what I think.

Truth #316

If I was Iranian I would shake my head.

Meaning what?

#314 Shammi

Why don`t you provide the details of Indo-Burmese nexus first? You keep alluding to it and then claim that these are not published in newspapers.

You should know that the RAW agents on Chowk don`t necessarily cover all geographic areas so please educate us first.

There is undoubtedly a lot going in the Northeast with some secessionist movements linking up with the Burmese rebels wanting to carve out a separate state. In this context a collaboration between Indian and Burmese governments is natural. It so happens that the Burmese govt. is a repressive military govt. Is India propping up that govt? Is there any evidence that India did not and would not collaborate with civilian govts?

The details are important, otherwise you might as well say, everyone is equally guilty, so nobody has the higher ground. (As as aside, I happen to think that GOI`s conduct in the Northeast has been shameful).

As for Bamiyan, are you saying that since virtually every nation is guilty of destruction of someone else`s heritage, no one has the right to condemn what`s going on? Yours is a wishy-washy attitude that makes no distinction between mob action and institutionalized thuggery. If anything getting elected has moderated the BJP`s position. As far as I am aware, most Indians here also are ashamed of what happened in Ayodhya.

#299 ylh

Yasser, you little brat, resorting to personal abuse or begging to be let off because you are taking so many credits shows that you are not yet ready for the adult world. There must be some teenager sites out there that ought to interest you.

krashid:

The point I was trying to make was that a move by a group (BJP/RSS/certain Hindus) to try to have a temple ``reconstructed`` through the process of law and the respectful movement of an existent structure is not inherently wrong - idol destruction on the other hand is inherently wrong.

The Babri Masjid destruction was inherently wrong because it was illegal, violent and disrespectful. But I do not view the demand for temple ``reconstructions`` as inherently immoral although I would vote against it if I was a law maker on the basis of ``choddo kal ki baatein, kal ki baat purani, aao sab mil kar banaye ek nahin kahani, hum Hindustani, hum Hindustani``. Let bygones be bygones.

shammi #314
I like the way you brush off every salient difference as a `detail`. I`m sure where your information comes from, members of the repressive Burmese junta graduated from Indian schools and have close ties with influential Indians.

A spade is a spade. If you are against the Talibanization of Kashmir, you cannot put on blinkers about where the Taliban came from and the implication of the Taliban phenomenon for India.

Re the demolition of Babri Masjid, I view it in magnitude many times more serious than the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas, because the destruction of the Masjid was a breach of trust with the many million Muslims of India. It put into serious doubt their security and their equal status in the Indian union and also put in doubt how much invested was the government and political machinery in safeguarding them.

However, efforts are being made to repair that breach and there is no change, in the Indian state`s fundamental underlying principle which is universally accepted that all Indians are equal and that each`s heritage and sensibilities have to be guarded equally.

The Taliban has been breaching the trust between themselves and their countrymen for years by driving them to desperation in many ways, one doesnot expect anything better from them. One article I once read talked of this old Afghan man with just a grandchild left alive weeping in the presence of the reporter because in his old age, he is unable to earn his living with dignity and is reduced to begging.

You may be interested to know from todays NYTimes, that Genghis Khan tried to destroy the Buddhas in
the 13th century and Aurangzeb gave orders to do so in the 17th century.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/04/world/04AFGH.html

The Taliban phenomemon(and some notable political movements in Pakistan), also trying to exert influence in Kashmir, show by their rhetoric and entrenchedness(and support to activities of armed groups) that those medievial times are being resurrected and the philosophy of refusal to respectfully coexist with other faiths and beliefs is being embraced as a virtue and a necessity.

This is not any excuse for the bigotted in India. It is worse for bigotted Indians or the BJP to use any excuses, they ought to know better than their Pakistani counterparts.

But it is as important to the preservation of peace and harmony at this juncture that the Masjid is not made an excuse for secular-minded Indians to put blinkers on and refuse to recognise the implications of what is happening in the neighbourhood. We have to be uniformly aware of everything.

Sadhana

Re: Sadna #312

The specifics between Indo-Burmese and Afghan-Pak official interactions will differ. The details of the interactions are just that -- details, and are not so important for the point that I was trying to make. The important point is that Burma is ostracized from the community of civilized nations, and so is Afghanistan. Yet, India is trying hard to win influence there (I know the spiel as to the why). So before one criticizes Pakistan for trying to win influence in Afghanistan, one must tend to one`s own inconsistencies first.

Regarding your comment that ``Indian intelligence and military is not providing resources...`` -- I don`t know your sources, but these things are not published in newspapers.

Regarding the Taleban -- they are as much a mob as the VHP/Bajrang Dal is in India. We should better focus on restraining our genies first. Besides, the construction of the Ram Mandir (read `destruction of mosque`) was an election plank for the BJP in national and state elections.

Truth #308

Thanks for accepting that descruction of Babri Mosque is deplorable for whatever reason.

And as I told Taleban are doing this as a diversion tactic to their people and is not justified.

Your equating of old temple destruction with current temple descruction is inherently wrong.

For example you cannot say that why stone age people did not travel in aeroplane. I think you understand the analogy. One cannot seperate the events from the socio economic stage of development. In old times pillage, destruction, burning of crops etc was norm during whether it was done by Muslims or Hindus or Christians. In those times if someone break the norm by being more humanistic was appreciated.

The current times is the time of self determination, human rights etc. In this time if someone tries to bypass that suffers the wrath of people. The recent example of Iraq will suffice. While imposition of sanctions by pseudo-UN/USA on Iraq is causing a grave suffering to Iraqi people, the Arab dictatorial regimes and people are taking a humanistic approach to the issue.

And don`t worry we will be blacklisted also in future history as people who would be spending billions and trillions of Dollars to accumulate and use weapons of mass destruction, instead of aleviating the suffering people.

Lets be clear about one or two important points here.

The destruction of the Buddhas in Afghanistan is NOT the unexpected destruction by an out-of-control hungry illiterate mob, the destruction was carried out by order of the national government of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, and with full deliberation. The Taliban government officials and the ulema council who made a decision about the destruction were not suffering from starvation and deprivation when they took this decision nor when they implemented it using rockets and mortar in the face of international appeals to better judgement over the course of the last few days.

Just because they are also starving their population, the Taliban donot deserve any consideration wrt the Buddhas. Their refusal to entertain any other opinion on the matter was also their own considered choice for which they hold total responsibility.

Secondly, the comparison between the Indian government interaction with the Burmese military junta and the Pakistani nexus with the Taliban regime.

Firstly, Indians are not involved in Burmese internal politics, nor are Burmese exerting influence within India`s borders. (Though some support may well exist for pro-democracy Burmese groups.)

Indian intelligence and military is not providing resources and support for any ongoing armed conflict within Burma waged against other Burmese.

Members of the Indian military and intelligence and other influential Indians are not involved in reaping profits from decades-old arms and drugs smuggling across the Indo-Burmese borders.

Burmese refugees donot live within Indian borders in their millions, obtaining education before returning to fight civil war in Burma.There is no centuries-old potentially destabilizing ethnic and religious cross-pollination across borders(fuelled by surplus oil-money or China just has a different way of doing things).

The Burmese military government is agreeing to cooperate in fighting smuggling and tackling cross border militancy, where and when have the Taliban ever agreed to do so (even extradiate wanted Pakistanis)to Pakistan`s similar requests?

The very clear aims of engaging the Burmese government is to obtain Indian objectives viz better trade routes for the Northeast and tackling militancy and smuggling, not to be hostage to repressive Burmese objectives.

Sadhana

shammi #305 one more thought before I get back to what I should be doing on the internet (searching colleges): I always feel it is a great pity that in the end there is no need for all this animosity that people carry: the entire solar system is now clearly within the reach of mankind, and just one asteroid alone contains minerals that have been valued at trillions of dollars; factory and farm automation is freeing up people from drudgery; the economics of shortage that our ancestors lived with for millions of years is being replaced by the economics of plenty; we have found the Book of Life (the DNA) and could very well be the last generations of mankind that thinks of a life-span of ``fourscore and ten``. Anyone inspired by the Quran which states that God put man on earth and not angels since He expects man to study his Creation - i.e. to focus on science - would be truly thrilled to see the rewards God has provided if we take on this role seriously. Compare this to the issues that take up so much of our time in South Asia - fighting over a patch of land in Kashmir, fighting over who is God`s favorite, destroying places of worship - and one realizes just how far we are from where other people have shown we can be. If we understand why we are here.

shammi #305 Insecurity and the herd mentality of the mob is certainly part of the explanation. Also, as the Scottish poet Robert Burns said over two centuries ago: ``O wad some power the giftie gie us To see oursels as ithers see us!``

Or more recently, pogo (who I have quoted before, and which caused me trouble with a poster who assumed pogo was a real person and not a cartoon figure ...albeit wiser than our real life cartoons...) but coming back to what he said: ``We have met the enemy, and he is us``.

Shammi:

You consider support/no support of the Taliban a difficult choice for Pakistan?

You consider SLORC of Burma in the same category as the Taleban?

Please answer these questions before making superficial analysis and far fetched analogies.

Everybody has inconsistenices - compromise is another word for inconsistency. India gives Dalai Lama shelter and India deals with China. India, China and the Dalai Lama understand and live with this contradiction. However, at some point you say ``this is intolerable``.

krashid #306:

Look at the arrogance and ignorance in your post!

You, and a lot of other people, say why break the Buddhas? After all they are not worshipped! By implication, you argue they are possible targets for demolition if they are worshipped! And what gives anybody the right to destroy the idol of another man? What arrogance!

If you have read my posts, you would have noted my sadness and shame at Babri masjid destruction. And you now say, you will only listen to me after I condemn it? Are your powers of comprehension so limited?

I condemn the destruction of Babri Masjid. I condemn it because it was an inherently violent and insensitive act not because I want you to listen to me.

I will only listen to you if you first accept the following:

1. The destruction of temples such as the Somnath temple and the destruction of its idols is condemnable.

2. The right of a community to reconstruct what they believe to be a demolished house of worship cannot be put into the category as the right of a community to destroy the idols of another community.

3. Thousands of mosques function normally in India - the ones that are the center of controversy are the ones believed to be built on the ruins of temples.

4. You accept that temple destruction has taken place in India in the past.

I think you get the point.

My post #304
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/020301/detopi01.asp

Truth #

My point was not this that what is happening in Afghanistan is correct. In fact Taleban themselves told few years back that these idols are not worshipped so there is no point in demolishing them.

The point was in your criticism you utterly forget that Babri Masjid was demolished recently and there is constant utterings by RSS/ Bajrang Dal of other places like Qutub Minar etc.

I will listen to you if you condemn first those incidences and then condemn the demolition of Buddha statue.

I think you got the point.

Tahmed321 #296:

I think that most `irrational` behavior of individuals and mobs is rooted in their insecurity. Remove the insecurity, and the behavior becomes `rational`. The Afghan people have been devasted by 20 years of war -- and most are worried about their where their next meal will come from. I cannot even imagine their sense of insecurity and deprivation. (I doubt if the average Afghan even knows or cares who heads the Taleban.) Similar logic also applies to the Indo-Pak or Hindu-Muslim relations -- there has been a long history of conflict, suspicions, etc. The verbal and physical attacks are really a reflection of the mutual insecurity that one group perceives vis-a-vis another. There is plenty to fault in one another. However, I feel that if we all focus on our own faults (rather than on others`) we may do more good. By focusing on others` faults, we will only harden attitudes, will never solve a problem, and will never affect behavior. One can spend years finding faults in others, and in the process never find a solution. The only thing that we truly control is our own behavior.

Why Musharraf is desperate for talks
Prem Shankar Jha, The Hindustan Times, March 3? 2001
www.hindustantimes.com

Also
The Friday Times, March 2-8 2001
What is our startegic thinking
Khaled Ahmed

It is at times difficult to say who is formulating Pakistan`s strategy. Over the past ten years, the state has become so soft that strategic thinking seems to have become fragmented between the army, the leaders of jehad and the clergy. But roughly, it revolves around the threat of India, defence on the eastern border while securing the western border through political accommodation, and getting India to fulfill its pledges on Kashmir by using the leverage of international opinion. Another aspect of the strategy is maintenance of special relations with the Islamic world and creation of the possibility of moral and financial support of the Islamic world to its India policy.

The `threat of India` part of the strategy is ambivalent in the sense that it has evolved from a genuine fear of India as an early `undoer` of Pakistan to become a strategy of changing the status quo against a much superior adversary. The cold war strengthened this strategy and Pakistan got enough quality arms to force India to think in terms of a bilateral military symmetry. The wars were fought to change the status quo and were started by Pakistan because India as a status quo power did not need to start them. The apogee of this policy was the Afghan war in which `Pakistan defeated the Soviet Union`. After this victory, Pakistan took on India for the third time, through jehad. The question is who thought of the strategy of war in Kashmir? Was this task performed on internationally recognisable lines ?

Who thinks of strategy in Pakistan?George K. Tanham, a veteran ex-diplomat and a preeminent American writer on strategy, wrote in his Pakistan`s Strategic Thinking (Hicks & Associates Inc): `Conducting research in Pakistan on security has many restrictions and is not easy. The active duty military are forbidden to talk to foreigners about security matters; this also applies to many civilian officials. Retired personnel also have restrictions as to what they can discuss though they appear to have much more freedom in such matters, and are always careful of classified materials...A few academics and journalists are knowledgeable...`. Why should the military be expected to know security matters and the academics be consulted as an after-thought? In the US, strategic thinking is done by civilian scholars in the think tanks. A look at RAND`s history will tell you that `official` strategy evolved from the work of the non-military scholars.

As far as strategy is concerned, South Asia is still quite Byzantine. There is no White Paper on National Strategy. `Someone` is supposed to know what the strategy is. Why should he say what it is? Wouldn`t it be a violation of security to talk openly openly about it? The advantage of this is that when strategy goes wrong, no one becomes answerable for it. In 1965, we sent commandos into Kashmir thinking the Kashmiris would join us, but they did not. Our strategy definitely posited that India would not open a front across the international boundary. When it did, no one was supposed to be responsible for the failure of strategy. In fact, Pakistan covered up the issue by declaring the war a victory and celebrating 6th of September as Armed Forces Day.

India`s `lateral` response to Kargil:In 1999, the same strategy was employed on Kargil. This time it was more credible. Pakistan had the bomb and India simply could not cross the international boundary without risking a nuclear war. India did not cross the terrestrial international boundary, but it did something else: it moved its navy into the ocean in such a way that it scared the Pakistani prime minister into capitulating. Who had thought up the strategy without thinking of the sea? The international boundary becomes uncertain in the sea and stops being a boundary beyond the territorial waters. That the navy was not even consulted on the Kargil Operation proves that no one had thought of it.

Tanham writes of the Kargil Operation: `Pakistan once again has not engaged in careful, well thought out strategic planning. There has been a tendency to think about a first step only, and then to proceed to action or reaction. Rarely have the Pakistanis considered what the enemy might do after their first step, and they have been caught by surprise several times. Pakistan seldom states clear objectives of what it wants to achieve, only very general ones, such as ``to take Kashmir``.` The truth of matter is that any well thought out strategy would take into account the long view, which doesn`t go in favour of Pakistan. The writer of this article had heard that one `objective` of the Kashmir jehad was to keep the Indian army engaged internally so that it doesn`t put pressure on Pakistan on the Indo-Pak frontier, but was shocked to hear it from Pakistan`s ex-foreign minister Sahabzada Yaqub Khan during a private dinner.

The long view is negative for Pakistan:The long view is supplied from the other sectors: the ulema connected with jehad, the Urdu press, and the retired army officers. The leaders of jehad frequently bolster the Kashmir strategy by saying that the Indian army is breaking under pressure and will capitulate soon provided Pakistan did not succumb to international peace initiatives. The Urdu press reiterates the textbook view of India as an inherently inferior polytheist state unequally matched with the superior moral and physical might of the Muslims. The retired general explains how India is breaking up from within and would soon be many states instead of one, and that Pakistan has to keep it under pressure to assist the process of break-up. This goes to make up the minimally coherent strategy of Pakistan.

The pillar of international support in national strategy is associated with Kashmir policy: that while deniable war goes on with the help of the militias, Pakistan would abstain from formal war and lean instead on the strategy of enlisting international support. This presupposes that India is on a morally weak ground because of its violation of human rights in Kashmir.

But when Pakistan went abroad to enlist this `international support` after 1990, it got very little of it. No one went into why the world did not come to the help of Pakistan even though it was offended with India. Had someone in the establishment done any cold-blooded analysis, he would have discovered that the reluctance related to Pakistan`s internal developments. In 1999, the Kargil Operation was staged with the idea that the world will come to the help of Pakistan. If someone thought that Pakistan would get international support under duress because of its nuclear might, he was indulging in a dangerous low-IQ exercise.

The fragmented strategy-making on Islam and India:The fragmented strategic thinking supplies the next bit. The ulema and the retired generals posit that since the West is Christian and since Christianity cannot be in favour of Pakistan, the West cannot be expected to assist Pakistan in its just struggle against India. They enhance this insight by further positing that the West, led by the US, is in collusion with India to inflict harm on the Islamic state of Pakistan. The US in particular wants to see Pakistan subordinated to the regional hegemony of India. In an even higher flight of strategic fancy, the clergy and the retired army generals, frantically supported by the intelligence agencies, will posit a tripartite alliance between the US, India and Israel, to harm Pakistan in particular and the world of Islam in general. An `intelligence` general recently put the `final` definition on strategy by telling a scared envoys` conference in Islamabad that `not fighting with India would be tantamount to living as shudras in South Asia`.

The army and the jehadi clergy seem therefore to think that a permanent state of war would suit Pakistan. Both are armed and have a vested interest in conflict. What might bother the army today is that it has also to run the country`s economy and may be under the same `heretical` pressure as the elected prime ministers were when they tried to `cool down` the jehad. This dilemma has not taken the army in the right direction, but split it, the jehadis siding with the dissident Islamists in the army. Conflict suits the jehadis as an eternal choice. What would damage their cause is victory. A defeat would hurt the Pakistani people but will actually make the jehadi clergy paramount in Pakistan.

Can isolationism be a strategy?If the strategy was to nurse good relations with the Islamic world, it has become seriously dented by contradictions with Iran and Central Asia, both located in close proximity. The rest of the Islamic world has lost most of its leverage in the strategy because of war and economic decline. Iran and Central Asia are offended because of the operation of another aspect of Pakistan`s strategy: keeping Afghanistan under Islamabad`s influence to avoid having a two-front situation. This has plunged Pakistan into deep international isolation and rendered the original strategy quite useless. Afghanistan which started as a paradigm of disorder in the region has passed some of its disorder on to Pakistan. The fragmented strategists of course interpret it as a positive development in the context of Islamic purity. The real strategy expert, Samina Ahmed from Islamabad`s Institute of Regional Studies, expresses the following fears about what passes for strategy in Pakistan ( Asian Security Practice, Stanford University Press, 1998):

`Pakistan`s continuing to depend on military power, both conventional and nuclear, and ignore the geostrategic policy of its neighbourhood could bring serious repercussions, for Pakistan has a history of conflict with India and the balance of power obviously favours its much larger neighbour...The use of official propaganda, in both domestic and international forums, to create hostility towards India, for example, could make it extremely difficult to resort to diplomatic bargaining, even if such a course should become desirable for Pakistan`s over-all security. It is becoming apparent that the new directions of state policy in Pakistan are in fact creating new categories of threat, both external and internal, while they fail to address the present security risks to the Pakistani citizenry and the state.`

shammi #294
I donot care one way or the other. I would watch what you ascribe to me, however.

ylh #299
Someday my vocabulary will be up to speed and I will tell you (and some others) what I REALLY think of you. I`m glad I`m still doing such a good job without it.

Sadhana

Truth

What Taliban do in their country is none of your or our business. Why are you so hesitant to apply the same rules which you want others to follow when they question happenings in your country. Afghanistan is a strategic ally. Our Eastern front is under constant threat from Indian invasion. India has already broken down half of our country with its naked aggression breaking all the rules and regulation of International Law. The rise of Hindu extremism and especially when the same Hindu extremist are in power in India with popular vote the region is very unstable. And now when those Hindu religious nuts have their fingers on the buttons to vaporize whole region into a nuclear inferno we have no option but to find as many strategic allies in the region as we can. Hindu extremism is more dangerous to India than Talibans.

There is 700K Hindu army sitting in a region (Kashmir) which is one sixth the size of Pakistan to murder few hundered Freedom Fighters. I dont think that 700K army is reqiuired to control few hundered fighters-their intentions are obvious-they are waiting for the signal from Delhi to storm into North Pakistan. We cannot let that happen cant we?

shammi #283 Actually, the Afghan people are in deep trouble and undergoing severe deprivations nowadays. A friend of mine (in the civil service) told me how a small delegation from an Afghan refugee camp near Peshawar came to him about their problems - he said the saddest thing was to see these proud people sitting their having to beg for food and supplies for their starving families. An NYT article today makes a similar comment about conditions within Afghanistan where things are even worse than in refugee camps in Pakistan: ``Usually a proud and rugged people, they have dropped even the pretense of tenacity. They are begging.`` And it talks about children dying of cold and hunger before the eyes of their parents. The only ones there to help them or report on their conditions are some NGOs. Their rulers (who have no understanding of Islam even as they claim to be an Islamic Emirate) are in the meantime busy destroying their heritage in the name of Islam, shamelessly allowing their people to undergo terrible deprivations and humiliations. I wonder if God will ever forgive anyone responsible directly or indirectly (those who created the Taliban) for this situation.

Urstruly:

The way for Pakistan to improve is to derecognize the Taliban.

Do you consider that positive or negative criticism?

Shammi,

Have you read the constant hate mongering by this woman.... you should first control your dogs from barking... and then we can talk friendship!

Sincerely

Yasser Latif Hamdani

chotu #287,

Great post. :)

Truth, the current regime (not the people necessarily) of Afghanistan is serving a useful purpose for the current regime (not the people necessarily) of Pakistan. In that regard, the current regime of Pakistan (not the people necessarily) finds it convenient to give them material support. All countries have had to make these difficult choices. Figure out why India awards the Jawaharlal Nehru Prize for Promoting International Peace and Understanding (something like that) to Nobel laureate Aung Suu Syu Ki (?) of Burma (Myanmar) one year and courts (by building roads, etc.) the military junta that has put her under arrest?

Re: Sadna:

I do not bear any hatred towards you. Perhaps, you misunderstood me.

Sadna

The easiest thing in the world is to find faults with someone and only thing which is easier than that is to insult someone. Only a person (nation) with severe inferiority complex would compare with others and tries to convince them how inferior they are. THat is what you and your compatriots do at Chowk. You can find faults with anyone and anytime-we have a proverb in Punjabi which goes like this ``Aata gunhni eh teh hilni eh``; an Urdu translation would be ``Woh aata goondhti hay to hilti hay``. (Probably a mother in law invented that proverb).

A better approach, if you cant help it, is to find the best in other and tell him how he can better himself. It is not an easy way. Therefore people who do that achieve the status of prophets and gods.

Oh and the International Rescue Committee(http://www.theirc.org/asia/afghanistan. fm ) estimates that 5 million of the total 20 million Afghans are refugees outside their country, many of those who are better patriots are dying of starvation. But looking at it from a balanced and mature perspective, at least none were killed in communal riots by Indian mobs.

Perhaps the reason why so many Indians arenot fleeing to Afghanistan(and Pakistan) to escape the persecution they face in India is because the Indian government refuses to have diplomatic contacts with the Taliban regime. DOWN with the repressive Indian state and Indian population preventing a full flowering of its citizens` dearest aspirations!

Sadhana

Truth #290
I agree with you. I am wondering where is all the outrage gone which we heard about Babri Masjid? Its seems all dried up when it comes to Buddhas. It leads me to suspect that its more a question of leverage against India than a genuine concern for a religious/historical relic or status of coreligionists in India.

And where are the Indians who published long tomes of outrage on Babri like Farzana Vershey? Have they gotten religion now?

The fact that the Indian state is pursuing enquiries and criminal court cases against those implicated in the Masjid demolition, the fact that BJP has been eternally branded a communal party and its electoral support(and its options for power alliances) have become severely limited by the temple agenda, the fact that every leader deposing before the Liberhans commission is denying culpability, much less defending the act of demolition, all these are given no weight at all.

At an institutional level, Afghanistan is nothing but a severe cariacature of Pakistan, in its refusal to accept the variety in human endeavors and beliefs. By equating the Taliban government(who have been masssacring fellow Afghans for many decades, remember Mazhar-e-Sharif and the recent reports) with the Indian state or Indian communal riots, is no sign of secular principles, its a sign of out-an-out dishonesty. Ask the Afghan Hindus and Sikhs(and some Pakistani ones too) who migrated to India as late as last year, what institutional religious extremism really means.

Sadhana



Sadhana

Shammi #283 Great post. We all can learn from the balance and maturity reflected in that post.

shammi:

if Pakistan had any self respect, it would not provide military and intelligence support to the Taliban and it would withdraw recognition of the Taliban. So criticism of Pakistan is spot on.

Pakistan is to Afghanistan what America is to Israel & worse.

krashid:

I have not supported and do not support temple construction at Babri Masjid for a number of reasons. Having said that, this unprovoked destruction of Buddha`s statues does provide support for the temple construction crowd - they can argue: if the Afghans can destroy in the 21st century, why is it so hard to believe that they could destroy in the 16th century? Anti idol-worship is very central to Islam and it is easy to see the medeival warriors being infused with this spirit. And there is absolutely no controversy about ruins of temples at places like the Qutb Minar in Delhi. And dont misunderstand me, I know religious tolerance is also central to Islam but how people interpret Islam is the key point. God proposes but man disposes.

Naqshbandi:

Thanks for the reply. I think that killing someone for saying something, no matter what it is, is wrong. However, an eye for an eye is somewhat palatable and justified. I think your kind of attitude eventually leads to anarchy. Realistically speaking and looking at all of history there have been all kinds of people in this world. If everyone (muslims and non-muslims) took your attitude of killing someone who insulted their beliefs or their prophets their would be murder everywhere. You have your rights to your beliefs, but when your belief sanctions the death of someone for uttering some words that you find disagreeable, I think you consider yourself too powerful.

Theres an interesting story, I hope you see the relation although it has a christian setting. In a monastary in Austria a monk got angry at a fellow monk over some issue. The head monk (for lack of a beter word) requested the perturbed monk to forgive the fellow monk. The monk refused, at this the head monk threw his hands up towards the sky and said something to the effect that Jesus, thanks for all your guidance, but we do not need you anymore, we have now reached the stage where we can judge our fellow man`s thoughts, intentions, and actions. at this the perturbed monk realized his arrogance and forgave the fellow monk.

Although I believe, the story is not applicable in the case of crimes or there would be no deterrent, I do think that it applies to the blasphemy issue, because I believe the punishment far outweighs the `crime`.

On a side note, I think one should try to differentiate between spiritual Islam and political Islam (the same way their is a difference between the soul and the body) and realize that many people have used Islam to further their cause in this world, not the hereafter.

Violence is not a solution to blasphemy and will only make people detest the Prophet (PBUH) that you love so much, because you atribute this violence to his (PBUH) teachings. In this way I believe you are doing a disservice to Islam. islam itself came down in stages to make it easier for teh people to adopt.

Anyway, good luck on your search for truth, for Allah knows that not many have found it.

Peace.

krashid:

I have never stated that an idol is more precious than a human life. And how has breaking an idol saved a human life?

The Babri Masjid destruction, a matter of shame for me even though I have never supported it, was at least for the expressed purpose of reconstruction of a temple, The idol destruction is simply for destruction. As for the riots after Babri Masjid, nobody is defending that.

Is Pakistan going to withdraw support for the Taliban or not based on this outrage? In India, BJP governments all over India were dismissed after Babri Masjid, the coalition has made it clear that they dont support the temple construction plus there are court cases going on against the destruction.

To me, the Buddha statues of Bamiyan are more precious than the pages of the print edition of the Koran or Geeta belted out by XYZ printing press. I`d much rather destroy one of those books than these statues. Sue me for worshipping a false god.

Idol-lover and proud of it!

Shammi 283

Even though you tried to down-play everything but for an Indian this is a giant leap. At least you recognize the problems and you know where to start looking for solutions. I think it is first time ever on Chowk that I have seen a relatively fair-minded Indian. Please always bear in mind that honesty and contempt do not go together. I have read about your goal i.e. you want to bring two people together (in one of yur posts)- I would say that it is the noblest of all deeds- also bear in mind that peace without justice is never possible. So stick with honesty and justice. Let go of contempt.

shammi #283
`` I think that your criticism of Pakistan`s religious extremism (as an extension of the Taleban - Buddha statue controversy) is ill-founded.``

I resent very much your putting words in my mouth which I never said. I have not criticised Pakistanis religious extremism in the Buddha statue context at all, if i did why would I I speak against macguptas comments on the other board and suggest that India and Pakistan cooperate in saving the remaining statues.

Re the Taleban and mob rule in India, I have criticised both on many occasions in different contexts. I donot owe you or anyone else here an explanation, it is out of respect for you that I am saying so much.
I suggest if you wish to show your hatred for me, stick to facts or personal abuse like everyone else.

Sadhana

Jay, Sadna:

I think that your criticism of Pakistan`s religious extremism (as an extension of the Taleban - Buddha statue controversy) is ill-founded. First, the Pakistan govt. HAS openly criticized the Taleban -- a key ally. This would not have been easy, but yet they did it. Second, Indians should not crow with glee at the embarrassment that the Taleban are unwittingly bringing to themselves and use it to score points, because after all the Babri Mosque was destroyed in India, too (and in contravention of a stay order from the courts!). The govt. of India was as powerless against mob rule then, and as haunted by the shame that it wrought upon itself, as future generations of Afghanis may well be one day. Further, no lives are likely to be lost in Afghanistan as a result of this (or anywhere else), while nearly 2000 died in riots in India in 1992.

Truth #272

Since your name is truth. And you have spoken truth on breaking the treasured idols.

Can you speak the truth on killing and massacre of people in India.

Or idols are more sacred than human life.

sadna #280

Now that is much better that you have recognized your problems. And it will be even better if you deal with your own problems first-the very problems that you just recognized.

I give you some hints:

1. Hindu religious nuts are a bigger problem to India than Talibans. These nuts are in power and they have penetrated deep into your sequeeelar polity. Direct your energies to resolve that problem first.

2. The whole subcontinent is on the verge of nuclear holocaust if one of these nuts presses the button.

3. Your minorities are suffering in all walks of life. Their lives are threatened and they face dangers of mass extermination at the hands of these nuts. The Babri Mosque massacars may be repeated any minute these nuts step into the mosque compound. Muslims in India are under siege. Try to solve that problem first.

4. I wont say religiously sanctioned discrimantion under which humans are divided into inhuman and subhuman catagories. Try to solve that problem. Even the natural disasters like Earthquake couldnt break this barrier- work on that problem first. But I wont stress if its your religious practice.

5. Try to solve the problems of wife and widow burning first in India-check the human rights sites; you are burning 40 women per day-then give us sermons on honor killings.

6. Stop genocide in Kashmir.

Urstruly #277
I see you are unable to give a refutation of a single thing I said. btw, get rid of the quaint ntiquated idea that calling someone an adjectived Hindu is an insult, its sounds very pathetic and just doesnot work. As far as lecturing goes, I was not lecturing and anyway chowk gets so much of it from you, how can you be so besharam as to object? Still on besharmi, how long will the Hindus and Muslims of India keep providing people like you excuses to resist solutions of what are uniquely your problems?

What do the Indian legislatures have to do with honor killings in Pakistan? If you donot keep informed on what happens in the Indian Parliament and legislative assemblies, thats no reason to use insulting language. I donot fool myself you really want to know what`s what in India. If you did, you would know many problems are similar in scope and severity, in India the outdated traditionalists` seige attitudes(like yours) are being broken down by law and are condemned in Parliament, including mosque demolitions or communal riots.

I can imagine yours is the common attitude that activists in Pakistan encounter from those in positions of influence, either someone is a commie, or a irreligious liberal or a Hindu or a Quaidani or a West-funded NGO selling the country down the river or defaming the country. Only an unquestioning allegiance to entrenched authority (or being a ditto member of a Saudi-funded NGO) is a sign of puremindedness. To the extent that, forget about resistance to an individual`s openly expressed opinions, larger groupings like influential political parties are unable to support even commonsense social reform even on those issues unconnected to preserving religious purity like honor killings.

Sadhana

Chotu, I beleive that if Haq Nawaz killed the shia diplomat from Iran (or anyone else) he should be hanged if it was proven that he did it. So, I agree with it.

Even if he had killed a Qadiani--I would say the same for as Muslims we must obey the law and islam does not allow one to randomly kill another person living in your land.

Though I consider Qadianis as kaafirs (and most Shias as kaafirs too-though not Tafzili Shias)I do not condone the random killing of someone who is a QAdiani or a Shia or any other faith. Such random killings-as are taking place--have no place in Islam and are probably politically motivated.

Hope that answers your question. You know, I -and most ``Islamists`` are NOT anarchists but law-abiding citizens.

[The only killing by an individual which i would defend would be in the case of someone who killed someone for insulting Our Beloved Prophet sal allahu alayhi wa sallam ( and only if it could be proved that he did insult His Excellency) out of ishq-e-Rasool like Ghazi Ilm uddin Shaheed killed the hindu auhor who wrote a book ridiculing our beloved Nabi alayhi salato salaam during the time of the british raj and then admitted it and was hung in turn. This is because the person of Our Beloved Master Muhammad al Mustafa sal allahu alayhi wa sallam is totally and absolutely sancrosanct and the shar`iat ruling on one who insults Huzoor Paak is death. Even so, it would be better for the State to kill such a person than for individuals to take the law into their own hands.]

Reply 267

Kabuliwallah

hmmmm saris on Brigade Road?? looking for all the wrong things in the wrong places.

Well if it is saris that you want - you should try some of the ``un``hip places

I like your style - the way you sprinkle your posts with the happenings in and around ... : )

Polo - i hate to tell you this - is said to have originated in Iran and the Mughals are said to have introduced India to Polo or v v. So that would make it akin to cricket. disagreable all over again!!!

aicha

Sadna # 275

Does your lecture include Hindu-stani Senate and lower houses too, when they refused to raprimand four genocidal maniacs who have murdered 6000 Muslim men woman and childern during Babri Masjid incident? Was Prime Butcher of India i.e. Vajpayee defending their position in front of the houses, in Dec.? Is it somehow different than defending the practice of wife beating, oh I mean systematic elimination of minorities?

Baysharam Hinhuo you insult the notion of ``Republic`` and you have audacity to give us lectures on it?

And BTW I know Senate did slap the wrist of those four Hindu religious nuts who are still in the key political positions in Vajpayee government.

#275
``...Such a measure allows government agencies like the police, local administration, social workers, individuals affected, and others to proceed the best they can in activism against a social practice without the additional burden of having to fight official/legal/political ambiguity/resistance as well...``

tahmed321 #273

It would be serious if a US Senator was a wife-beater. But, it would be of much worse significance for the US, if a Senator defended the practice of wife-beating in the US Senate.

There is a difference between institutions and individuals, thats Jay`s point. A Senator and Senate proceedings are representative of millions of people and each individual of those 120 millions doesnot have to sign a petition, thats the meaning of a Republic.

Thats why failure to condemn a heinous practice in the representative house of the Republic by people`s representatives carries so much significance.

Now either the Senators were truly representing the point of view of their constituents regarding honor killings. Or they were acting on their own compulsions and passing on this `tauhamat` to the people of Pakistan by refusing even to pass even a resolution condemning the practice.

In either case, its a serious reflection on the inability of institutions to recognise heinous practices as such and perhaps the inability of ordinary Pakistanis to get their institutions and their representatives to reflect their values even on such matters of life and death.

Bride-burning is against the law in India, and is accepted as heinous in principle by the government and people`s representatives(which is why a law could be passed). Such a measure allows government agencies like the police, local administration, social workers, individuals affected, and others to proceed the best they can in activism against a social practice without the additional burden of having to fight official ambiguity/resistance as well.

An unambigous recognition by the Pakistani government or lawmakers will strengthen the hands of all those in the field fighting the practice of honor killing.

Sadhana

Jay: ``You should not forget that the 98% percent moderate people of pakistan, belonging to the PML and PPP parties representing the `democratic` forces refused to condemn the honour killing. ``

What are expecting, a petition signed by 120 million people? And would that petition put an end to honor killings? Would you similarly call for 1 billion Indians to sign a petition condemning the practice of bride burning in order to earn your blessings? And what is this thing about ``peaceful and prosperous`` Pakistan you say you disagree with? You wish to have a violent and impoverished Pakistan? You think that will be to the benefit of the India?

I am sorry but you make no sense at all. You are simply blinded by a desire to see trouble in Pakistan so you can crow about it, and lack an ounce of decency or common sense. People like you are your own worst enemies. I think we can end this discussion now, and you may carry on with your usual rubbish.

Naqshbandi:

I`m just curious to find out what your take is on the recent hanging of Haq Nawaz for the murder of the Iranian diplomat. do you think it was justified ? If yes, would your answer be any different if Haq Nawaz had killed a Qadiani ?

Please note that this is regardless of what the Iranian diplomat or the fictitous Qadiani may have said or done or what beliefs they profess (blasphemy included). I`m trying to understand if you believe that common citizens can murder people if they feel that is what their belief instructs them to do.

Thanks, it will help me understand your opinions which most of the times I find non-tolerant, and prejudiced.

To Pakistan:

You, the collective You, are close to 100% responsible for creating the Taliban and therefore at least 49% responsible for the destruction of Buddhas statues by the Taliban today. One of these in Bamiyan is 180 feet high, 2000 years old, built into a cliff.

Please dont ever repeat your self-serving fraudelent irrelevant crap about how religious parties never won an election in Pakistan when Pakistan can recognize a barbarian regime in your neighbourhood. There is no way I can begin to express my contempt for the Taliban and the support they have received from Pakistan over the last decade.

Kabuliwallah:#267

There is no such thing as Fundamentalist,liberal,secular etc etc(add your favourite).These are labels given to people in the charade called Democracy......a system supposedly designed to obtain the best possible sample(representative),like in science,but has ended up as end itself to segregate people by their various facets.

A human is indivisible.He/she is many things rolled into one.Parent,Investor,employee,religious etc etc AND none as the situation demands.The effort by the party system to delineate humans into finely defined categories so that those chosen are either for this ar against that.

Just try to find equivalents of the above terms in your mother tongues.Difficult,isn`t it?

We say a person is good or bad because of his deeds & not because of these appendages to his name---like a brand name.

Who has nurtured this diabolical thought that what these thugs call Fundamentalist cannot be a caring sharing humanbeing within & without his community.Since when are two mutually exclusive?

What these thugs call liberal does not automatically make the person a decent/pious human either---as is evidenced everyday by those who go out of their way to claim their unprudishness to look/sound acceptable as progress/modern oriented.

Watching porno is an indication of one`s horniness or obsession to it.It does not mean that the person is advancing the cause of humanity by an iota.Ditto for fashion shows & other such vulgarity.

One MUST be judgemental.That is the only feature which defines the person.

Intelligence & physical labour is required to perservere & progress.Those looking forward to bare their assets & expose their baser instinct always have a better chance to gratification.

It is not easy to counter such scum by any religion-----but that precisely is the reason for religions to exist.

__________________________________________________

``Chalti chukee daikh kurr,diyaa Kabeera rO

Inn dO patan key beech sey,gayaa naa sabat kO.``

hint:The two grind-stones are the Earth & Sky,and humans,grain-like,get crushed without discrimination.

__________________________________________________

wassalaam

Kabuli #267
The ICH on MG Road is still around, I hope? Definately Indian coffee, and with those windows, the scenery wouldnot be too bad either, I am thinking :). Or try MTR, if you can get in, that is..
Now if you complain these places have not been `branded` attractively enough to capture the hip market of youngsters, well, remember, doing so is essentially an undesi phenomenon too :).

Sadhana

tahmed 259

Your description, `peceful and prosperous`, istead of my word, moderate is significant and there in lies the fundamental dispute with the indian view.

You should not forget that the 98% percent moderate people of pakistan, belonging to the PML and PPP parties representing the `democratic` forces refused to condemn the honour killing. You should not forget that when a young women was shot dead in the office of Asma Jahangir, a resolution condemning the honour killing in pak parlement was summarily defeated. It was not a legislation to alter the laws, it was just to show the displeasure of the legislators, and low and behold, they were not disp[leased.

May be the term moderate means something very different for the pakistanis. It could mean some one who supports honour killing, likes the blasphemy laws, and funds the jihad, but may not be actually implicated yet in any of the crime that ensue from it.

The pakistan of 1947 has marched along a path, a path of intolerance, the completely responsibility of which has been left at the feet of one Zia. May be the pakistanis have to reflect on the parliment voting on honour killing to find the inner impairments due to a schooling system, that can be summed up as k for kafir.

regards

jay

To anyone who knows: I have heard from a brother that pervez musharraf is a Qadiani. Is this true?

(I sincerely pray it is not)

re: FARANGI_KUSH # 154

We are on the same wavelength when you say that people should take care of their immediate concerns first...people who make long speeches about humanity and the common bond between them and then later go and spend Rs. 350 to buy a ticket at a discotheque without doing much to put their views on humanity in action piss me off and disgust me...but I`m afraid that is all that I am in agreement with you...I don`t know what you mean by fundamentalist...I`ll try to give my explanation...take sardars for example...any Keshdhari Sikh who attends Gurudwara regularly can be interpreted as a fundoo...but my religion says that I keep hair, remember God, do seva etc...no ifs and buts...so I keep hair and try to accomplish what my Guru ordered me to do...now some Chandigarh choot might take that to mean that I`m fundoo...that according to me is not being fundoo...now suppose a Keshdhari Sikh is willing to kill people who don`t take langar on the floor but on a chair, now that is being fundoo...I don`t know which fundoo you are referring to...I also don`t have anything against NGOs as such...some NGOs I don`t like very much, like communalism combat, for example...it should be called Hindu communalism combat...they dont` talk much against Islamic communalism...but then again, India is a fu_ked up country vis-a-vis secularism

However, inspite of all that, I do agree with you about Indians trying to ape their ex-masters in general...the slavishness has not been washed away yet...cucumber sandwiches, strawberries and cream, eating pizza with a fork and knife, eating rice with a spoon while eating roti with a hand, attributing qualities to places, things etc because we have been taught to do so in the books written by Western `classic` authors etc are symptoms of the malaise

However, I`m not against taking a bite out of Western culture...I would like a balance between the West and Indian culture...recently I was at this hip place in Bangalore called Brigade road...I really like coffee at this place called Coffee Day...though it is the same stuff that I can get at any roadside coffeewallah, it has nice atmosphere for youngsters and so I`m a regular patron...there was this group of chicks hanging around...I enjoyed what they were willing to show me and was having a good time in general...all of a sudden it hit me that there wasn`t an iota of what you could call Indian in that place...the chairs were Deli style...music Western...coffee of course with Italian names imported from abroad, while not more than 100 kms away, some of the best coffee grows...some of the girls had permed hair, some highlights (sp?)...and at that moment, I missed saris very much...I felt just a little sad

Another example, why do Indians keep playing a game which they obviously su_k at? why not try to excel at polo, kabaddi, or any of the various `Indian` games and try to popularize them? Today the Indian cricket team earned another feather in its cap...it lost to Australia within three days

regards

Kabuli

Video interview (2 parts) with Lashkar-e-Toyba chief Sayeed at:

http://images.thenewspapertoday.com/video/lash1.ram and

http://images.thenewspapertoday.com/video/lash2.ram

Yasin Malik interview at http://news.india-today.com/ntoday/video/multi-media/yasinrm.ram

Interviews of Liaqat Ali & Usman Majid at http://images.thenewstoday.com/video/liaqat.ram

Re: Shankar #215, ROmair #207

The above recent posts have forced me to pour my thoughts on the issue of General Musharraf.

This guy can not be trusted. Period.

The last person who trusted him is now in exile in Saudi Arabia!

The only reason the general looks ``moderate`` is because he can not afford to NOT look moderate. The country depends heavily on IMF. If he behaves like Saddam, you can guess where it lands him. Moreover, this is not the same world as a decade or two ago. Dictators are now frowned upon and severly isolated by the international community.

His views on press freedom are known to every one.During last UN session in New york, you could see his true fangs. His affiliation with religious right has also been exposed time to time. You could see many people in Pakistan press wondering if he can guard or act against Talebanization of Pakistan.

These days he is trying to pit Vajpayee against the so called ``hawks`` around him. When Vajpayee was in Lahore, the general refused to greet him. And, now he is asking Vajpayee to come again to Pakistan or let him come to India. So what was wrong with Vajpayee`s earlier visit?

The very fact that he is trying to tinker with the constitution to introduce a permanent role of army and the very fact that his NAB has not taken single action against any army or judiciary person, clearly point that he is not above board and has a hidden agenda.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/feb/28pak.htm
India should concede more territory: Pakistan

G Chandrasekhar in Washington

Pakistan is of the view that a solution to the Kashmir issue lay in India ``conceding`` more territory beyond the the Line of Control and not by converting the LoC into an international border.

This was conveyed by the ruling establishment in Pakistan to a US Congressional delegation which visited that country recently.

We have to tell the people that there has been some gain after a 50 year struggle,`` said Pakistan`s Interior Minister Gen Moinuddin Haider, justifying his country`s stand, Congressional sources told UNI Wednesday.

Congressmen David Bonior, Jim Mcdermott and Joseph Pitts called on Pakistan`s Chief Executive General Musharraf last week. Their meeting lasted for more than an hour.

Gen Musharraf told the visitors his country, a long-time ally of the United States, felt betrayed because of the Pressler Amendment banning arms sale to Islamabad during the 1990s and also because of the visit of President Bill Clinton to the subcontinent when he spent five days in India but only a few hours in Pakistan.

Gen Musharraf also told the delegation that Pakistan did not give training to militants nor did it have a hand in cross-border terrorism in the Kashmir valley, the sources said.

He also said it was difficult to enforce immigration controls on the Pakistan-Afghan border where tribal people with similarities live on both sides of the border.

Asked by McDermott to explain what caused the Kargil conflict, Foreign Minister Abdul Sattar told the delegation at their 20-minute meeting that the intrusion was his country`s retaliation to Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee`s ``anti-Pakistan`` rhetoric after his Lahore visit.

Sattar also expressed concern over the delay in the issuance of passports to Hurriyat leaders by India.

The delegation also visited refugee camps at Peshwar and Muzzafarabad. UNI

Humsab #255

No sir!

I have no plan to ask you.

Mein Insanoon Mein Rahta Hoon.

jang.com.pk, Feb 28 2000

Religious groups can also be friends of peace
Mansoor Ijaz

When we launched our effort 18 months ago to construct a framework for peace negotiations that would finally and fairly settle the Kashmir issue, the Vajpayee government`s resolve and sincerity were without doubt in my mind. Achieving certain milestones, like the Hizbul Mujahideen-backed ceasefire in July 2000 and then the Indian government`s Ramazan ceasefire last November, were at the time laudable goals because they were designed to stop the bloodshed.

But Mr Vajpayee`s latest ceasefire extension leaves me with deep concerns about whether an overarching strategy is still in play, or whether we are at the point of reducing the peace initiative to a mere propaganda ploy. The 90-day extension can only h