Hands Across The Border

Re: YLH #121

``The only just solution for Kashmir is the Plebiscite...``

Yasser, I had asked you for a workable solution. You know that this option will be dead on arrival in India, given the current political atmosphere. I think that both sides will have to give some (to save face, if you will). Your solution is the Pakistani prescription (and regardless of merit, it will be treated with suspicion in India for that reason because India will be seen to be giving and getting nothing). A practical solution will have to be able to overcome this obstacle. Do you think that a solution which places Indian and Pakistani armed forces under joint (Indo-Pak) military command (thereby greatly defusing the military threat posed to each other), and a gradual process of reverting to the Cabinet Mission Plan type arrangement can be sold to Pakistanis? Do you think that there will be any support for that in Pakistan. Basically, two dominions, with full internal autonomy, and only foreign relations, communications and inter-dominion trade to be regulated by a Federal government. (Why don`t you propose, hypothetically, constitutional guarantees that you would like to see) In this arrangement, both sides will gain some, and give some. Kashmir will become an internal issue -- I speculate that the goodwill created in India as a result of this will force India to make huge concessions on Kashmir. This arrangement will also more accurately reflect the will of the common people on both sides -- reduced tension and freeing up of massive resources for non-military uses, the right of people to be left alone and profess their beliefs in the manner they see fit, treatment at par and as an equal for each dominion, promotion of cross-border contacts. Another reason that I make this proposal is that the convulsions created by a rapid divorce during Partition have caused additional problems that did not exist then (e.g. Kashmir, Bangladesh). Therefore, Partition, as a quick fix was really like applying band-aid, when the sick patient (India) needed surgery. What is inescapable is that perhaps things were overdone by insecure and distraught politicians on both sides during Partition, and a new solution that recognizes this needs to be found. Please give this proposal due consideration.

Kabuliwallah #101

``lets solve our own problems first...to hell with everybody else...how many of these obsessed fools have done anything for the Gujarat quake victims?``

Sat Sri Akal Kabuli .. I have posted for you a report from Sikhnet on ``Earthquake hits India and Pakistan`` thread .. you will like to read very well organized work by Sikh groups to insure that the poor and forgotten are taken care of.

Regards.

Sadna #128:

You are right on!

One reason why the Kashmir situation is not going to get better:

http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20010222/ina22052.html

Random droppings on K A S H M I R

- Pakistan treats its minorities (non-Sunnis and non-punjabis) much worse than India treats Kashmiris.

- Has someone noticed this trend in Pakistani gatherings these days: Mohajirs, Sindhis and Baluchis get set to vomit as soon as a Punjabi starts to croak about Kashmir.

- I think we lost Kashmir at Kargil.

- Jehadis are kicking the dhoti clad butts very well (something that I really enjoy) but any cost-benefit analysis will tell us that the cost of continuing the current Kashmir policy is un-bearable for Pakistan.

- what the phuck

RE: Reply #: 125 Asif Naqshbandi

``So what do I think is the solution? I really and honestly believe that if Pakistan implemented shar`iat 100% that all these problems would be solved (not overnight obviously). Therefore I believe, for Pakistan Islam is the answer. The trouble is that people have been media-programmed to think of islam as only cutting off hands, beheadings, four wives etc. Actually, if you look at, for example, the reign of the Khalifa`s, Hazrat Umar ibn al Khattab, for example, it was a type of welfare state and the people didn`t have any of these problems which we have in indo-pakistan.``

Reminds me of my mother-in-law`s longing for the utopian state which her forefathers purported lived in: seven or so brothers, some with multiple wives who ``ruled`` benignly over their village. Of course, she conveniently leaves out the gory details of fratricide, property fights, being waylaid and killed etc. that I hear from other sources.

You know, even communism sounds ideologically perfect. Everyone knows what happened to it.

Religion will never be the binding force of Pakistan - respect for it`s varied cultures, languages, sub-cultures is the only way. Pride in being Sindhi, Balochi or Punjabi in no way diminishes one`s Islamic identity. Unless the average Pakistani gets this, there is no future for Pakistan.

I agree with you about India being dar-ul-Islam. In much the same way that Pakistan is also the land of Hindu heritage. One more thing to respect.

urstruly

... i hate to see a fellow paki, silly as he might be, loosing to sadna the warrior princess.... so here is some advice from the old man :

``Defend yourself when you cannot defeat the enemy, and attack the enemy when you can. One defends when his strangth is inadequate; he attacks when it is abundant. Those who are skilled in defense hide themselves as under the nine-fold earth; those in attack flash forth as from above the ninefold heavens. Thus, they are capable both of protecting themselves and of gaining a complete victory. ``

......... happy warring!

Saxena:

I thought you were sent to hell by one of your compatriots on board. Shouldn`t you finish your tenure there before posting jargon? Just a thought!

hamidm# 135

Sir, you have wrong ideas about me. I am a lover and not a warrior :)
Therefore:
haaray bhi to baazi maat nahiN.

Asif Naqshbandi #125

Man you are a good guy. Who told you you are bad.

We are bad who still think that Nawaz Sharif and Company has looted the country so ruthlessly.

Anyway, It is never too late to realize.

I don`t understand one thing. Was he corrupt because he was Naqshbandia or Naqshbandia tradition kept a check on his corruption.

In later case I would say Naqsbandia are doing a good job otherwise Pakistan would have been sold to Daewoo and we would be thinking it is not sold.

On the other hand if his God given wealth was due to Naqshbandia, I would ask some ``Wazeefa`` also.

Nameless #108

I appreciate your post.

Being a Pakistani I can laugh full heartedly on my faults, and that makes me a Pakistani.

See the rise and fall of nations, it is fleeting. Only a healthy outlook towards life is reality. We fight laughing and die laughing also.

Remember Tipu when he said ``One day of life of lion is better than 1000 years like jackal``.

RSaxena #On various posts.

Do Arabs live in your neighbourhood.

Arabs I met have been very good, although with different culture. The Arabs you are mentioning are also there. As five fingers are not equal. Learn to see other people as human. And better still first try to make yourself such, you will learn to appreciate other people and culture.

hamidm ji

# 136

You seemed to have been unofficially accepted as an Umpire on this Chowk. That must have been the reason that all those horrible hing eating hindoos not only never object/react to your witty wisecracks but actually enjoy these.

Now in your post # 136, you have shown partisan. You can`t give tips to one side to the detriment of the other.

Still nothing much to worry because our Sadna is `Sawa lakh se ek Larhaoo`.

Sadna and friends,

Let`s hear your comments on this article about Indian Hindu-Jihadic terrorism and the rejection of this so-called `ceasefire` by the Kashmiris. Come on, Sadna. Let`s see you try to justify Indian Hindu-Jihadic terrorism in Kashmir without cutting and pasting propaganda pieces from Indian newspapers.

``They [the Indians] kill, every day they kill

dozens of people for reasons best known to the

government of India. Anybody can be killed.``

----

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1182000/1182243.stm

21 February, 2001, 15:21 GMT

Kashmir ceasefire: Little support on

the ground

A Kashmiri woman pleads for the return of her arrested son

By the BBC`s Jill McGiveringin Srinigar

The Indian Government has extended its unilateral ceasefire in Indian

Kashmir.

But some say the violence in the Indian-administered region is

worse now than ever.

Since the ceasefire was implemented last November, Indian forces

have stopped search raids and offensive operations against

militants.

But opposition to the ceasefire is intense.

Hurling rocks

Many on the ground say the killings and human rights abuses have

got worse and that has sparked the biggest wave of street violence

for many years. For several days now, there has been open violence

on the streets of Srinagar with angry groups of youths hurling

rocks at security forces.

Police respond with teargas and

baton charges.

Many of the clashes started as

protests against alleged police

heavy-handedness and custodial

killings.

As 14-year-old Javad Ahmed

Nath was buried, a crowd of

hundreds gathered at the grave

chanting defiantly.

He was shot dead by Indian

soldiers just a few hours earlier

when they opened fire on

protesters. One mourner said the

boy`s death was only one of many

extra-judicial killings - something the Indian Government strongly

denies.

``It`s very tense because nobody knows what`s going on,`` said one

mourner. ``They kill, every day they kill dozens of people for reasons

best known to the government of India. Anybody can be killed.``

The anger turned to mourning as final prayers were said. Many

people here have little faith in the current ceasefire.

They say the Line of Control may

be less violent but killings in the

valley have not decreased.

Parvez Imroz is a lawyer in

Srinagar documenting human

rights abuses. He says this

unilateral ceasefire has made no

difference.

`` It has not made any difference,``

he said. ``People are jokingly

saying here sometimes that the

ceasefire should be withdrawn so

the human rights violations

should get minimised here.

``On the ground, militants have

not agreed [to take part in the ceasefire.] So on the ground, the

violence has escalated.``

Streets tense

The security forces have their own problems - they are now on

heightened alert.

Militants opposed to the ceasefire have carried out a series of

dramatic suicide attacks against them. Groups like the paramilitary

police feel more vulnerable than ever.

Sashi Negi, a company commander with the Central Reserve Police

Force, said: ``Since the ceasefire, the militants have come out into

the open.

``The kind of pro-active offensive against them [we saw before] is

no longer happening. The general public has taken to the streets too

- and that`s why we feel more tense.

For families of those killed in the recent clashes, like 14-year-old

Javad, the political crisis doesn`t matter.

All they know is that they have lost a brother, a son.

`Few gains`

Javad`s father is still in shock. ``All my son and I were doing was

going to work,`` he told me.

``We don`t have anything to do with politics, we were just trying to

earn a living - and now my son is dead.

The Indian Government has made a difficult decision.

The ceasefire was meant to be a brave move towards negotiations

which could bring political progress on Kashmir.

Ending it would have been an embarrassing admission of defeat. But

the ceasefire in its present form has brought few gains - and in the

valley at least has little support.

More Indian Hindu-Jihadic terrorism against innocent civilians in Kashmir.

``They [Indian soldiers] threw something on my body and asked me to stand near the flames. My legs were on fire. I felt the skin of my legs peeling off. I started crying and running in pain. I felt as if somebody had put me in hot water. It was unbearable.``

----

http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20010222/ina22052.html

Imam tells a horror story of `torture` in Army custody

MUZAMIL JALEEL

SRINAGAR, FEBRUARY 21: Coming close on the heels of the Hygam and Maisuma incidents, the alleged torture of the Imam of a local mosque in a remote

north Kashmir village by the Army can spark off a fresh round of controversy.

The 30-year-old Imam of Shalikot village in north Kashmir, Ghulam Hassan Kumar, was allegedly picked up by men of 28 Rashtriya Rifles on February 8, on the

suspicion of being a militant. He was, however, released when the major in charge of the RR company realised he was not involved. What, however, happened

in between is Kumar`s ``horror story``. It left him in no condition to even walk. His family had to carry him home.

A senior officer of Kilo Force told The Indian Express that they were investigating the matter. ``We will definitely take action but first we have to investigate to

know the truth,`` he said.

``I begged for death but they kept me alive. They were asking for a pistol, and when I pleaded my innocence, they set me on fire. The skin ofmy legs and neck

peeled off and the pain was unbearable,`` said Kumar of his 84-hour ordeal from his bed in the burns ward of the SMHS Hospital here.

``I am basically a farmer though I occasionally do the imamat (head theprayers) at the nearby Chana mohalla mosque. During the winter, I also work as a night

chowkidar at the residence of a well-known apple merchant of thearea, Deeri Singh, who shifts along with his family to Jammu. And thatevening also, I was

on my way to Sardarji`s house after having my dinner at home. It was a bit late, it was around 8 pm. Somebody called out to me from the dark, asking me to

halt and raise my hands. I knew it was the Army and I immediately obeyed.

``When they came closer, they asked me to take off my phiran. They blindfolded me and started hitting me. They took me to the Shalibug post, handcuffed me

and tied my legs.``

Kumar broke down. The wounds on his neck were still open. The lone nursing orderly, who was doing the job in the absence of the staff, had put dressings on

his legs. ``I don`t want to recall what they did to me. Theyhad just one demand -- give us a pistol or give us your life, and four ofthem were hitting me,`` he

recalled.

``Then came the officer, Major Yadav. I knew him, in fact everybody inthe village knows him. He asked for kerosene, poured a bit on my clothes and lit it

himself. My shirt caught fire and he immediately extinguished it. Then they asked me to sleep on a heap of firewood and started piling up logs on my body.

Major Yadav once again asked me to surrender the pistol, threatening to otherwise burn me alive on the pyre. I was so scared that I could not even plead for

mercy,`` Kumar said.

Kumar`s voice cracked and he closed his eyes. ``They took me off the pyre.For a moment, I thought it was mercy and they would let me go. But then they took

some of the firewood and lit a fire. They threw something on my body and asked me to stand near the flames. My legs were on fire. I felt the skin of my legs

peeling off. I started crying and running in pain. I felt as if somebody had put me in hot water. It was unbearable.

``I asked them to kill me,`` recalled Kumar. ``I was in so much pain that they gave me an injection``. He said later he was blindfolded once again and put inside a

sentry`s bunker. ``I was lying there and had lost all hope,`` he said.

Then his family approached some Sikhs who were their neighbours. ``They pleaded for my release and got me out of there. I have no words to thank them.

They gave me a new life,`` he said.

Kumar can`t figure out why the Army picked him up. ``I am not evenremotely involved in anything. Ask anybody in my village or even in the

neighbouringvillages. Even these armymen would see me almost everyday,`` he said. ``Idon`t know why they picked me up. There were two local Ikhwanis

(counter-insurgents) -- Akbar and Chadiya -- with them. Perhaps, they hadmisled them. But I don`t know for sure.``

Kumar is accompanied by his brother and a cousin, who didn`t want their names to be revealed. ``They (the Army) will kill us,`` both of them pleaded. ``We don`t

know what will happen when they hear that he (Kumar) talked about it. We live in a remote village, where they are the ones who rule.``

Kumar claimed his family had been asked by the Army not to take him out of the village without their permission.

Copyright © 2001 Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd.

Re: Zahra

Shaanti, bacchi. No need to flare your nostrils here. The only lucky ones sent to hell are the Mujahideen shaheeds...the ones Urstruly cheers on from the comfort of his sticky sofa.

re: harish3 # 126

you yourself say that the role of the government should be minimal : ``free market and a massive reduction in the size, scope, and power of the government.``

Here in Bangalore, we too felt a tremor, though a minor one...apart from that and the bond of humanity, the main connection we had here with the people of Gujarat was our Indianhood. You should see the way people are contributing for the relief effort. Every nook and corner is donating money. In fact, in some places, there are reports of surplus supplies and the problem being improper distribution of relief material. Now, that is what I call action. Where does Pakistan come anywhere in the picture here? These were people who wanted to help their brethren in need. This cut across religious, linguistic and caste lines. The college I attend, Christ College, had a huge drive to collect money, clothes, and canned food. Sara Corner, the Miss India World, is from Christ College. She has promised to make an effort to help the Gujarat quake victims by using her celebrity status. These people instead of just talking, actually DID something for their nation. The army was the only institution that seemed to know what it was doing during the crisis. The government, as usual, seemed impotent. The picture of a woman, rescued from the rubble, kissing a soldier and hugging him, gave us all hope. If India is to get anywhere, Indians will have to take responsibility for our misfortunes and catastrophes. Blaming the government or some goddamn foreign hand won`t do.