Hands Across The Border

Hey Sharmila,

Two can play at this `hands across the borders` game...LOL!

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Azad Kashmiris plan peace trip to Held Kashmir (from The News)

(Updated at 1845 PST)

ISLAMABAD: A group of leading Azad Kashmiris said Sunday they planned to attend an unprecedented peace meeting to be held in Jammu

city of the bisected valley.

Kashmiris said Ghulam Nabi Shah had invited a delegation of 60 politicians and intellectuals from Azad Kashmir to a conference scheduled from March 17-18. They said the number of delegates who

would travel depended on how many were granted visas by New Delhi.

Bilal # 7

Unfortunately for Pakistan, they don’t have a morale argument for Kashmir because the basis of partition itself was immoral. When is it ever moral to force religious minorities to leave in order to make way for a religious state? i think many Pakistanis understand this sentiment when framed in the context of the Palestinians.

I am not convinced that a peaceful solution to the Kashmir problem is imperative b/c I know that the only solution acceptable to India (making the LoC the official boundary) will never be satisfactory for Kashmir-obsessed-Pakistan. So there is no solution to this problem and to paraphrase U.S. Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, when a problem has no solution, it is not a problem but a fact. The only thing India can do is to maintain the status quo.

Urstruly # 13

Your post is pretty self-righteous. I don’t think you call people who hijack civilian airplanes (like the air India flight from Nepal to delhi in dec 99) freedom fighters. But over the long term, I do agree with you that truth does prevail. However, this is not always the case in the short term, otherwise, states based on religious hatred, like Pakistan, would never have come into existence.

harish #6: ``Why does Kashmir need to be a part of Pakistan or independent just because they have a muslim majority``

The religious, ethnic or any other kind of identity of any region of world should not, by law, be the basis for deciding to which country that region should belong. In the context of Kashmir, it should not be independent or be part of Pakistan or India because of religion. The only criteria for where it ends up should be the wishes of its people. If the people base their wishes on religion, ethnicity, political beliefs, or any other factor, then they should be given the right to do so. So all Muslim areas/peoples of Asia should not be part of Pakistan or India (or be independent of Pakistan or India); only the ones whose people voluntarily want to be.

It is unfortunate that this struggle has been misrepresented in the Indian (and to some extent the Pakistani) media.

I agree with anyone who argues that Pakistanis and Indians need to interact more to gain an understanding of each other. The more interaction, the better. At the same time I agree with the people who argue that if someone in India really wants to do a good deed, which will far outweigh any kind of India-Pakistan interaction, they should point out the actions of their govt. in Kashmir. Until an internal objective human rights based approach regarding this issue is developed in India, I doubt the relations between India and Pakistan will improve. Only the Indian people can encourage their govt. to stop its actions (currently fully supported by the average Indian) in Kashmir. I would encourage the Indians to disassociate with their own media (and the Pakistani media), regarding this issue, and follow the international media, and human rights organizations and the UN relatively unbiased views.

At the same time, I do not agree with the people who pass on the blame of the poor India Pakistani relationship onto their respective govts. That is a very easy way to rid one of one`s own responsibilities, and pass the buck. The buck actually stops with the people. The reason there is conflict between the Indians and Pakistanis is because of the people`s views. I have seen it first hand here in the USA. Indians and Pakistanis get along great individually. But the moment they get to the community level organizations, they are at each other`s throat. Indian organizations generally being much larger than Pakistani ones tend to really go on the offensive (I hope TiE doesn`t go down that route).

It is imperative that Indians and Pakistanis meet each other as much as possible, on an individual level (not at an organizational level). There views about each other will definitely change. I went from studying military plans against India in Pakistan, to sharing a room with an Indian in America within a few weeks. And my views definitely changed.

At the same time, I don`t think such interactions are really going to change anything on the national scale. The reason, of course is Kashmir. And this problem will not be solved until people in India develop a human rights based outlook to what their govt. is doing in Kashmir. They need to get away from their Pakistan-centric view; at least on this issue, since this is not only a political problem, it is a human rights problem, in which tens of thousands of people have been killed due to Indian government`s actions.

Unfortunately, I have not noticed any such human rights based view emerging amongst the Indians, in general, and on this site. Most are more than happy to accept what the Indian media and govt. offers them, and are unwilling to think independently on this issue (there are a few human rights organizations in India which do carry a human rights based view on this issue, but they are very tiny minority).

Pakistanis held the same views regarding East Pakistan, during the whole Bangladesh struggle. They justified every action of the Pakistani govt. by pointing to the counter-actions of the Bangladeshis, be it the Mukti Bahni, or anything else. Pakistan has had to pay the price for that for a long time. However, I think Pakistanis have finally, through a lot of introspection, come to terms with the fact that Pakistan was in the wrong, regardless of the counter-actions of the Bangladeshi freedom fighters/terrorists (choose your own word). Better late than never.

Indians need to carry out a similar introspection regarding their support of their govts. actions in Kashmir. Just because India is in a cold war with Pakistan, or because Pakistan supports Kashmir, doesn`t justify India`s desire to subjugate the Kashmiris and keep them under India`s control. The argument that India is at war with Pakistan, Pakistan supports the Kashmiri struggle, hence India is justified in killing Kashmiris may hold water at the nationalistic scale, but not on the scales of human rights.

Once the average Indian comes to terms with India`s actions in Kashmir, and denounces them, instead of trying to find reasons (jehadis casuing all the problems, Pakistan causing the problems, the Kashmiris are asking for it themselves by counter-attacking etc; the historically standard justifications by all subjugators given for genocides) to justify the actions, I think slowly but surely the relations between India and Pakistan, and Indians and Pakistanis will move towards their natural balance, i.e. two friendly neighbors with somewhat different societies but similar problems, with average to good relations on the national level, and very good relations on the individual level.

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ahmadb #7,

Excellent post with excellent points.

Such ``feel good`` missions are useless and pointless until the root of the problem is solved.

They may make us feel better temporarily, but as soon as an innocent dies in Kashmir (whether the culprit is India or Pakistan) bad feelings are created in the two countries.

India and Pakistan have to stop fooling around and get down to business. Then, maybe, after the Kashmir issue is resolved, we can start dissolving our defense budgets and put them to better use for the good of South Asia.

Dear Mr/Ms. Bakshi

I think I should apologize to you for my harsh tone in my first post (only the harsh tone and not for the content). You must have figured that out by yourself that my bitterness has some bases.

You sound like an intelligent and honest person and our sub-continent needs young and energetic persons like yourself who have courage and will to change the world. My concern, however, is the method and approach to solve this problem.

I know that I sound like enemy and I write like an enemy and therefore I must be an enemy. Yes, that is true; but is it also true that I might be telling the truth?

Some 30 years ago there were students like yourself whom every body considered worthless. They were labelled as hippies and haray rama haray krishna LSD injesting day dreamers but they changed the world. At that time the most self-righteous government in the world (even now)i.e. United States was lying to its own people. While they were incinerating whole villages with Nepalm Bombs and their chemical weapons in Vietnam. They were carrying out this genocide not for 2 or 3 or 10 or 20 years. They were doing it for the past 35 years. US government was constantly lying to its own people about the acts of genocide throughout.

Then some brave students like yourself took upon themselves and refused to take part in this crime against humanity. They were jailed, labelled as traitors, and even were shot and killed. But they never let go of the truth that they had realized.

My Dear Bakshi, It will be people like yourselves, the students, who can save Kashmiri from this genocide which Indian Army and Indian Government is committing not for 2 or 3 or 4 or 10 years. They have been doing it for the past 13-14 years now. The first question that you shoulkd ask from your Naytaas (politicians) is why 700,000 army is not able to stop few thousand freedom fighters (estimate less than 10,000). Please keeep in mind that Indian Army in Kashmir i.e. 700,000 of them is almost double in number from the total army of Pakistan; whereas Indian Occupied Kashmir is only one sixth the size of Pakistan. Please ask your leaders why they have brought the one sixth of humanity at the brink of Nuclear Holocaust. What kind of danger was India in when they decided to put the whole sub-continenet at the brink of Nuclear disaster? Please ask.

Dear Bakshi- The killing of civilians without proper trial at the hands of army is a crime against humanity. International Court of Justices` War Crime cell mandates such actions to be tried under war crimes act.

It is people like you who must act now and save India from the humiliation like US in Vietnam and Russia in Afghanistan. Bear in mind that laws of nature are infallible and they are blind. One such law is- YOU CANNOT FIGHT PEOPLE.

PLease act now. Organize your friends and family and seek the truth. Ask your government to stop these crimes against humanity. Do not listen to your countrymen at Chowk-what kind of human being would justify the killing and genocide, but they do. They are blinded by hate. Seek the truth yourself. Ask your government why they are not letting human rights organizations in Kashmir.

Long Live Truth. Truth=Peace.

Umairr #19,

I have been following the Kashmir issue for quite some time and these are my personal views as an Indian - I don`t know how many other Indians subscribe to the same p.o.v.:

- Under no circumstances should J&K go out of the Indian Union. Not to Pakistan, not as an independent entity, no division/trifurcation.

- My `vision` for J&K is that the rule of law will prevail, peace will prevail, the people there will enjoy the full political, social and economic benefits as other citizens in India. This can happen only when militancy dies down (as in Punjab) or comes down to an `acceptable` level for normal life to resume.

- Indian security forces may have committed excesses - the guilty will have to be punished. This is no different from the custodial deaths (in police custody) that happen everywhere else in the country - it has to be viewed as an aberration, the guilty will have to be punished.

- What is the role for Pakistan? I do not see any value of holding talks with Pakistan. India has nothing to gain and much to lose by talks - it can only concede, not gain anything. Pakistan has only everything to gain both by talks and by the continued militancy in J&K. Nothing that Pakistan can `concede` - eg. reining in of militants - can compensate for any concessions that India will be expected to make. We should rather bear the costs of militancy and concentrate on putting it down or wearing them down.

- I am ambivalent on Pak Occupied Kashmir - ideally I would like it to be part of India, as per our legal position, but at present do not see how that can happen. The current status quo is okay.

- I am ambivalent on the issue of autonomy too - ideally equal rights as with the other states, or as limited an autonomy as possible to `buy` peace with the local people. In the long run, I am convinced that India will have to transfer more powers from the Centre to the states anyway. A strong Centre cannot meet the needs and aspirations of one billion plus people. More power to the states and local authorities is inevitable. However, I am equally hopeful that states will continue to remain in the Indian Union as it makes the most sense (even in economic terms) to do so, apart from traditional, cultural and other ties with each other.

I see the Indian Union being somewhat like the European Union - single currency, common parliament, single army, single foreign policy, but with more powers to states.

Re: Kashmir

I am not sure if India can solve this problem without talking to Pakistan which is what it is trying to avoid. Pakistan on the other hand will never get India to talk if Jihad goes on and Pakistan is seen to be remote controlling the Jihad. It is a catch 22 for Pakistan. If it wants to talk, it has to shun violence and stop helping the Jihadis. If it does this, the very Jihadis who Pakistan is helping may turn against it. Next few months will be interesting. It will tell us if Musharraf is really serious about reigning in the Jihadis as is becoming increasingly clear from the news coming out of Pakistani newspapers.

As far as the people who are getting killed in Kashmir, my sympathies are with innocent civilians. These things are inevitable. After all we are defending our turf and are dealing with hardcore terrorists. I have no sympathies for these people for whom Kashmir is just a testing ground and so i am not impressed by the URLs posted in this forum about the number of terrorists killed in Kashmir. I may add that i also do not have any sympathies for the Tamil terrorists who are killed in Srilanka despite being a Tamilian myself. Mahatma Gandhi showed us many years ago that freedom from a great power can be won by peaceful means. So I do not understand what the Kashmiris stand to gain by continuing to support the violent struggle when this has not gotten them anywhere. As long as there is violence, India will have (or find) justification for resisting the violence. The western powers understand this. Have they not seen what is happening in Ireland or for that matter in Srilanka. A peaceful struggle, on the other hand immediately shifts world`s sympathies to the side of the aggrieved party. I see the peaceful struggle as the only way out for the Kashmiris. For this to happen,Jihad in Kashmir must stop and Kashmir must come back to a normal civilian life. Pakistan can help Kashmiris achieve this but the question is are the Pakistanis interested in the well being of Kashimiris or are they doing all this just to see Kashmir join their country,by whatever means?

rsridhar

SAPLINGS AND OTHER STORIES

Once up on a time, long long ago, some people longed for peace, they planted saplings as symbols of their desire. Some like yrstruly soaked it with sulphuric acid, some like bilal nurtured it with water, a few like the shrinks talked to the saplings, others ignored the `sapling drive`.

Years passed, none of the saplings grew , they all withered, gently, slowly. They went to the wise old owl, ``tell us why our saplings stayed the same``. The wise old owl went to each of their saplings, uprooted each, showed them...there were no roots, the saplings were made of plastic.

There is a moral, allways check and ensure that you use recycled plastic, it is good for the environment

Hands accross the ditch

In india many engineers hold senior positions in IT and other industries. It represents a value system and any similarity will be helpful to stretch the hands accross the divide. The following is from dawn of today and shows how the engineers are treated in a leading edge pak industry. There is clear evidence that in pakistan, less is more in the case of education, degree is less than trade qualification at PIA, trade qualifications are less than madrassa ones. Long live the pak IT dreams.

Graduate engineers` plea

THE graduate engineers at PIA are being continuously denied of their due rights and despite a large number of appeals by them,`` Pakistan Engineering Council has failed to implement its rules in PIA. Many graduate engineers approached the PEC but to no avail. This has resulted in a brain drain from PIA and PIA engineering management and Pakistan Engineering Council are directly responsible for this.

Some of the grievances of graduate engineers are:

A graduate engineer should be given BPS-17 or equivalent in a government or semi- government job but PIA gives group 5 equivalent to BPS-16.

Graduate engineers should be under another graduate engineer and not under an undergraduate as in PIA.

Graduate engineers are not confirmed in their jobs till 8-10 years of service but all other employees get their confirmation after 6 months.

Graduate engineers are being given the status of non-confirmed and non-productive.

Due to their non-confirmed status they are being denied of the facilities which other employees of same pay group enjoy.

The graduate engineers are also discriminated regarding promotion and the technicians are preferred over the graduate engineers.

The graduate engineers appeal to the PEC to look into the matter and do the needful.

GRADUATE ENGINEERS OF PIA

Karachi

Umairr,

Re post#19

I agree with the sentiment of your post. If we look at the Kashmir problem from a human rights standpoint, I`m ashamed at what the Indian govt is doing to the Kashmiris. Every human being has the right to self determination. Unfortunately, throughout human history, the strong have dominated the weak, usually by brute force. Ultimately, the strong justify the use of force when the weak use violence to express their rights.

Whether you look at Kashmiris or Palestinians; both have been oppressed from a human rights point of view. However, in the past century, have either group succeeded by violent freedom fighting methods? After the Munich massacre, hardly anybody in the nonIslamic world had any sympathy for the Palestinians. The PLO`s terrorist policy didnt gain them an inch of Palestine; no matter how righteous their cause.

For the sake of argument, lets say 100% of the mujahadeen are indigenous Kashmiris. Have they won an inch of IHK in these last 10 years? If anything, it has hardened the stance of the Indian govt & Indian citizens. Collectively, it has given us Indians an excuse to rationalise the military`s atrocities. This dominant discourse that most Pakistani`s have to ``bleed India in Kashmir`` is a delusion ,IMO. When the mujahadeen attack Indians, India doesnt bleed blood. It collectively oozes testesterone & makes us more hard lined.

For those who believe that the ``bleeding by mujahadeen`` policy is a victory because India will be forced to come to the negotiating table--its an excercise in futility. India may come to the negotiating table. However, in no way will India give Pakistan what it wants. At the most, it will be willing to concede that the LOC is the international border. Even then, it will hem & haw & exploit every disagreement between the mujahadeen & Hurriet groups. The talks will end up in a deadlock or stalemate. Each country will blame the other for not negotiating in good faith & the problem will continue & the Kashmiris will continue to suffer.

The mujahadeen are the part of the problem, not part of the solution. Other than Pakistan, NO other country considers them ``freedom fighters``. Oh please dont quote OIC resolutions to us--we all know what they stand for. Also, like it or not, the US is the sole superpower. The prevailing US views is that they are terrorists, with links to Bin Laden. Western Europe will either back the US, or at the most, remain neutral. Russia considers them terrorists, China is definitely not comfortable with them. All these countries are eager to tap India`s potential.

Who does Pakistan have on her side as far as Kashmir is concerned? By herself, Pakistan is militarily & economically weak. She is definitely going to be increasingly fundamentalist as days go by, IMO. She doesnt have the sugar daddy US/CIA support (which was instrumental in dislodging the Soviets in Afghanistan). Sure, Pakistan will be happy to portray a few Islamic countries who murmur polite diplomatic sympathies about Kashmir. Heck, it will take more than that to dislodge India from Kashmir.

So, in conclusion, what does Pakistan have in way of support of Kashmir--Amnesty International?!. Sure AI has slammed India. But what does AI say about Pakistan? Not very flattering. Its a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. Can Pakistan rely entirely on the mujahadeen? She risks being increasingly isolated internationally, by doing so. More likely, the mujahadeen will realise, sooner or later, that the first jihad has to be fought inside Pakistan. NOBODY believes Pakistan`s stance that she is only giving ``moral & political`` support to them. Jeez, does Mushy actually believe the world was born yesterday?!

The only time the weak have prevailed over the strong is when they have a charismatic leader who denounces & renounces violence completely & then maintains a policy of peaceful non violent confrontation & civil disobedience. Such a scenario is not likely to happen in Kashmir.

I agree with you that more Indians should denounce their govt`s behavior in Kasmir. By the same token, should`nt more Pakistanis denounce the behavior of the mujahadeen? Even you call them ``freedom fighters``. You justify their behavior as acceptable because of GOI`s behavior. Two wrongs dont make a right!

You have to realise it irks us Indians that Pakistanis (URstruly, for eg) stand up on this self righteous pedestal & equate us to genocidal beasts---like Pakistan is this benign, peace loving, human rights caring paradise on earth. If you guys are doing it to feel good about yourselves, be my guest. My violin performance in the background will be memorable. But once again, wake up & smell the chai,if the rest of the world doesnt give a damn about what you say--do you really believe it will change Indian minds?

Re: Umairr

Umairr, you refused to answer my question put to you in post `What is Blasphemy` #606, even though I gave a detailed response to your questions. My question was (I repeat), ``will you support a cessation of all jehadi activities (fund-raising, recruitment, infiltration, etc) from Pakistani soil, directed at India, and as called for by Pakistan’s government so that a peaceful solution can be worked out?`` You had pointedly refused to answer this question then, and maybe you will do so now again. Let all know where you stand on this issue before you raise the human-rights issue again.

I had indicated that there is a political, strategic (security), human-rights, legal-constitutional and a domestic security dimension to Kashmir. To highlight or emphasize just one, while ignoring others will never lead to a stable solution. Besides, nobody is convinced that the Indian political system does not offer any remedy to the rest of India, that is not also automatically offered to Kashmir (elections, full citizenship, free press, etc.). Unless, this were to change substantially against the interests of Kashmiris, I doubt that many Indians will be moved by an argument that hinges on human-rights alone (distasteful that they may be).

You have also, I might add, in various posts expressed deep satisfaction that the Kashmir insurgency is serving Pakistan`s security interests by `pinning down 700,000 soldiers in Kashmir, which would have otherwise been available for action elsewhere`. Leaving aside the merits of this specious argument in a purely security-focused framework, please tell the world how you square your professed alarm at human-rights abuses in Kashmir while SIMULTANEOUSLY drawing satisfaction from the fact that the presence of the alleged perpetrators of abuses in Kashmir is also a benefit to Pakistan (by reducing the pressure on Pakistan army elsewhere). You have made both arguments in the past, leaving one to wonder -- are you truly speaking on behalf of the Kashmiris? If you were, then any collateral benefit to Pakistan should be of little value.

AHIMSA- ANY OPPRESSORS` FASCINATION

Ahimsa or Non-Violence is any oppressors dream. It is interesting to note that these two buzz-words are at the top of any oppressors wish-list around the world; Be it Indians in Kashmir, Russians in Chechneya, Zeonists in Palestine, British thugs in Ireland, or American Haraami in Middle East-all of them want it. It is their mantra.

What is more interesting is that they want the oppressed to act on the principles of Ahimsa or non-violence whereas they consider themselves above it. It does not apply to them. It is not them who should take an INITIATIVE to exercise Ahimsa. It is the oppressed, who gasps for air to keep alive, should act on it. Gosh! What a tangled web these oppressors weave.

Personally, I think Ahimsa is the biggest scam that was ever pulled in the history of mankind. Incidentally, it is our very own neighbor India whose founding father Mr. Gandhi pulled that stunt. And why wouldn’t British or any Colonial and Capitalist oppressors throughout the world love it? Britain needed someone to help them pull through two near-fatal World Wars, one after the other, and to coup with the post war trauma-and voila…..Mr. Gandhi gave it to them on silver platter; the Ahimas- This Ahimsa shi-t has added at least 30 years to our slavery to Britain. Thanks a lot Mr. Gandhi.

Now the dissidents of Gandhi want Kashmiri Freedom Fighters to lay down weapons, start chanting Haray Raama Haray Krishna, march in the cities with pigeons sitting on their shoulders.

Dear Indians! If you want Ahimsa to work here:

- how about declaring a general amnesty to all Freedom Fighters.

- Lift off state of emergency from the occupied Kashmir.

- Announce a compensation plan to all victims.

- An un-conditional apology to all Kashmiris and especially Kashmiri women whom have suffered the most at the hands of Indian Army

- A five-year development plan to help rebuild Kashmir.

- Allowing Human Rights organizations to monitor India`s promises on improvement of Human Rights aka Ahimsa.

- Scrapping all ``Investigation/Torture Cells``.

- Stopping all extra-judicial murders.

Only then one may assume that you are serious about your promises. Only then you will be able to separate alleged ``infiltrators`` sent by Pakistan from the peace loving Kashmiris. Otherwise it means that you are just buying time to put some more murders and rapes on your tab. You must first deserve then desire.

Did anyone notice that there is no mention of succession or giving Kashmir to Pakistan in the above Ahimsa wish list? Can you ask your government to do that? Do you have the MORAL COURAGE?

Well said shammi. You write well. It is difficult for me to add anything more than what you have already said. Kashimir problem will be solved if peace comes to the valley first. Jihadis who are fighting with the mindset that they can get what they want by violence are denying Kashmiris the very thing they desire most,viz. peace. In this regard the statement of Hurriyat saying that Kashmir is a political and not a religious issue is encouraging. Looks like Kashmiris have seen through the game of deception that is being enacted by the Jihadis who, as i have said in another thread,have a much broader issue in mind and Kashmir happens to be just a symptom of the disease.

sridhar

Re: Kashmir

Kashmir cannot be equated with Vietnam. Vietnam was a foreign land where U.S was waging a war. Kashmir belongs to India legally and constitutionally. For this status to change,all parties concerned (India,Pakistan and Kashmiris) must sit down and discuss all options. This can happen only when peace is established and not a day sooner. I have already said before what Pakistan can do to establish that peace. Until then India will do everything in its power to defend its territory.

Regarding the ``bleeding the India`` theory that is circulating among the Jihadis and the military rulers of Pakistan,as Shanker has said,the theory is far-fetched. Let us for a moment suppose that at some point of time India does decide that it is not cost-effective anymore to defend Kashmir the way it is doing now,what do you think will be its response? For starters,it will attack the training camps across the border. Indian army generals are known to have been in favor of a more proactive policy which includes such a step (the politicians,who make all decisions,are not in favor of this). Depending on Pakistan`s response,we may then have either a conflict that is localised to Kashmir or a fullfledged war. Knowing this very well,India may be trying for a peaceful solution even while preparing for the worst scenario. Seen in this light,all the recent defense purchases make some sense. The question is are the Pakistanis prepared for a full scale war? Is it worth the sacrifice? Is not a peaceful settlement of the issue a much more reasonable alternative?

sridhar

rsridhar

INDIAN CONSTITUTION, HUNH?

# 31

Kashmir is not a constitutional issue. It never was. The issue has its basis in the formula of partition. The issue first materialized even before the partition took place whereas Indian Constitution was adopted in 1956. So Kashmir is never constitunally India`s. One might say the issue of Khalistan is a constitutional issue because it was raised well after all parties (with in India) agreed to a constitution.

A referendum in Indian subjugated Kashmir will decide the ``constitutionality`` of the issue with in a matter of hours.