Hands Across The Border

Sharmila:

Welcome to Chowk. The future rests with the youth. We can all chip in various ways to alleviate sufferings. Hopefully efforts like these will someday come to fruition bringing in its wake tolerance and withering away the might of intolerance and extremism.

Allow me to repost this from Midday and Chowk.
____________________________________________

UMMEED KI KIRAN:

DIWALI 2000


__________________________________________________



DIYA JALAO

Diya jalao: chiraghaaN karo
ranjishaiN
shikway, shikayataiN
do’or karo.

Let the light
pierce the darkness
the new light
of hope, happiness
deliverance.

Naya saal, naya din
paigham um’meed ka laya hay
diya jalao dosto
din karo raat ko
bad’l dou tareeki ko
pu’r ummeed ujalay say.

Laxmi ki daulat
chain aur a’mun hay
khushi aur khush-hali hay.
Aao du’aiN karaiN
geet gaaiN
is mausam maiN
sada rahay baaqi
chain aur a’mun
darmiaN humaray.

Let Lakshmi bring
what is hard to buy.
Light of hope
Wealth of peace
Happiness of prosperity
and Justice in its wake
for today
and days, years to come...


CHIRAGH JALAO

Sarhad kay paar
shaa’er ki baat suno
woh bhee ik diya jala’aye ga
---kabhi na bujhnay wala
ummeed ka diya jala’aye ga
mohabbatouN ka, dosti ka
hamesh roshan rehnay wala...

Across frontiers
real or imaginary
this poet will
light a lamp too.

...fervently praying
our gods and bhagwaans
instill passion
in the darkness
of our hearts
for love, perhaps
or he’d strive
for lessening hatred
in the travail
for just happiness.

Perhaps,
in the prevailing darkness
the flickering flames
will bring forth
estranged desis together.

Shayad abhi woh waq’t aaya nahi
kay khuda aur bhagwan
sunaiN dilouN ki dhaRRkan humari
a’mun, chain, khushiyaan
phail jaaiN hur soo
shayad woh waq’t
khood hee lana paRRay ga humaiN...

...woh tou srif itni hee du’a karta hay
kay nafrataiN darmian humaray
kuch kum hoN aaj say
srif kuch kum hoN aaj...

M’raiN naa maaraiN
pyaar na sahi
nafrat kum karaiN...


ROSHNI PHEH’LAO

BaRRA hay pareewaar humara
kaRRoRouN haiN hum
jawaan, booRRhay, bachchay
laakhouN mohabbaitaiN haiN
hazarouN ranjeeshaiN
nafrataiN bhee
hur tarah ki boliaN
har tarah kay log.

Who’s afraid
of a little more happiness
a little less hatred?
In diversity is hope
in hope, light.
Let us light that lamp
and nurse its flickers
till a sun of peace
overwhelms
the darkness of suspicion.

Time to revisit fears
close old chapters
turn a new page
of hope and .....

...hope this lamp
never dies...

Chalo bund kardain
puranay khatay, kitabaiN
dosti ka purana sabaq
phir yaad karaiN aaj.

Naya din
naya ujala
pehla qad’m
chalo dilouN ko
roshan karain aaj.

Such a trip or expedetion (if you will) will be utter non-sense. In my opinion such a tour should start from KashmiR (if you insisit anyway). If you are capable of doing anything more than burning fuel bring the truth about Kashmir in the open. Tell the people about the genocide and the injustices done by Indian Government towards the Kashmiri people first. Try to convince your people first.

Please refrain from quoting the tree and the French Marshal examples. How do you expect a plant to grow in the first place when you water it with sulphuric acid day and night and expect it to turn into a tree?. Resolve the territorial issues first that has their bases in the formula of Partition. Work to provide justice to Kashmir first-starting with your own people. Until then please keep away from our land.

Thank you.

Sharmila: Thanks for publishing your article at Chowk. Yes, there is hope in South Asia and it will only come through grass root contacts. The governments of South Asia are dianosauruses and only interested in their own set of policies. More often than usual they are much different than what people demand and desire. I commend your, Akhil Bakshi, Sunil Dutt and other members of the organization for undertaking a noble cause.

You gave some very valuable information also.

[500 million South Asians live in absolute poverty.

230 million South Asians lack protection from disease.

620 million have no access to safe drinking water.

800 million lack decent sanitation

50% of the world`s illiterates are in South Asia.

90% of the world`s blind are in South Asia.

And each day the problems grow more urgent]

Yet many of us are sweating over what happened to a 1000-2000 people in 7th century, the Banu this and Banu that-what a pathetic prioritizing. The concerns of hundreds of million of people are what should matter most desis.

Hope to see you participating in discussion.

.....yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnnnnnn.......

While you guys plant trees, hold hands and sing `Kumba Ya` together, here`s what your country does in its colony in the Himalayas:

--

http://asia.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/16/india.kashmir/index.html

Kashmir killings spark town protests

February 17, 2001

Web posted at: 10:15 AM HKT (0215 GMT)

By Mukhtar Ahmad

Special to CNN

SRINAGAR, Kashmir -- The killing of four unarmed

civilians at Hygam village in the northern Baramulla

district has triggered massive protests in the Kashmir

capital Srinagar and other towns.

Authorities in the Indian-administered Kashmir

imposed curfew in the civil line areas in the city after

troops opened fire to disperse stone-throwing

demonstrators shouting pro-freedom slogans.

A senior police officer said a 16-year-old boy identified

as Javed Ahmad Nath died in the firing by the troops in

the Maisuma locality in uptown Srinagar.

The other five injured persons are undergoing treatment in the hospital here.

Hundreds of people including women and children came out on the streets in Maisuma defying curfew

restrictions as the body of Nath was brought back to his home.

Paramilitary and police troops in strength were later deployed in the area to restore order.

Residents in other uptown and downtown city localities also held demonstration against the Hygam killings

Thursday.

Four killed

Nearly 15,000 villagers assembled Friday afternoon at Hygam where the Indian army soldiers killed four

civilians including two women in the firing Thursday afternoon.

They shouted pro-freedom slogans. The villagers reached Hygam in buses, trucks while others traveled on foot.

Senior Kashmiri separatist leaders addressed the gathering and condemned the killing of four villagers and the

local pharmacist.

The Hygam villagers were protesting against the alleged custodial killing of a local pharmacist, Jaleel Ahmed

Shah.

The villagers say, Shah, was picked up by the special operation group(SOG) of the state police Wednesday and

later allegedly killed in custody.

A senior police officer however said that Jaleel, who was a militant, had attacked the SOG in a nearby jungle and

in the ensuing gun battle he was killed.

Violent incidents

The major north Kashmir towns were again rocked by incidents of violence. Scores of people including police

received injuries in the stone pelting and teargassing and baton charge in Baramulla town.

The district authorities had a difficult time in controlling mobs protesting against Thursday?s shooting on the

Srinagar Barramullah highway.

Following Friday?s massive protests and anger in the Valley, the Jammu and Kashmir government upgraded the

level of the judicial probe into the Hygam firing.

The Indian Prime Minister who announced a unilateral ceasefire in Kashmir which comes for a review next week

spoke to Dr Farooq on phone and expressed his anguish over the incident.

The APHC chairman Professor Abdul Gani Bhat told cnn.com: ?This is a serious incident and has served a severe

blow to the peace process initiated by Indian government in the Kashmir.

?Under the cover of ceasefire they are liquidating the youth. This has undermined the sanctity, if any, behind the

Prime Minister?s ceasefire and his repeated assurances to resolve the dispute and restore peace in the whole

region.?

Sharmila, welcome to CHOWK!
It was a pleasure to read this article and to
share what you are trying to do. Allah, Bhagwan
and the Buddha bless you.
I`m glad to read that you are from JNU. Please
give my warm regards to a teacher at JNU named
Aijaz Ahmad.

Ras

Urstruly # 2

First,i agree with your opinion that the article was nonsense. It was simplistic. The only part I agreed with was expanding employment opportunities by removing all barriers to free trade. A free market combined with a drastic reduction in the size and scope of government is the only way to raise India from poverty, and despite all the talk of the IT boom, it is still not happening fast enough.

Secondly, thank you for bringing up Kashmir so quickly. :) Your claim that oppression of kashmiri [read muslim] people by the rest of India being at the heart of the Kashmir problem is either a result of your own brainwashing by Pakistani propaganda or your own PR attempt to further Pakistani propaganda.

The problem of Kashmir is not oppression but of competing ideologies, as is all of partition. On the surface, partition appears to be about hindu-muslim conflict. But the real conflict is about competing ideas of religious tolerance. Despite all her problems, India believes in religious tolerance, and Pakistan, by definition, does not. This is the fundamental difference between the countries.

Why does Kashmir need to be a part of Pakistan or independent just because they have a muslim majority? While I cannot deny allegations of human rights violations in Kashmir (from all sides), no one outside the muslim world believes that hindus are trying to oppress kashmiris; hence the international reaction to kargil placing blame on Pakistan.

I find it amusing how patriotic Pakistanis can sit in western countries and defend pakistan’s ideology of religious intolerance. If these same western countries had pursued ideologies similar to Pakistan (replace islam with Christianity), those Pakistanis would never have been able to come to the west. I find it even more amusing how some Pakistani mulsims attack Israel for doing the same thing that Pakistan did – create a religious homeland at the expense of a minority of a different faith.

Indians need to do a better job of showing the ridiculousness of Pakistani propaganda portraying Kashmir as a struggle for independence, when the problem is nothing more then religious bigotry.

You said, “Resolve the territorial issues first that has their bases in the formula of Partition. Work to provide justice to Kashmir first-starting with your own people. Until then please keep away from our land.”

Just because your grandfather managed to rape and murder all his hindu and sikh neighbors, steal their property, and force anyone left to flee doesn’t mean its your land.

In response to harish3 (Reply # 6)
Dear Harish:

Your question: “Why does Kashmir need to be a part of Pakistan or independent just because they have a muslim majority?”

My response: An extension of this question would be to ask for the very basis of the partition of India. Unfortunately, the partition of India is a reality that we cannot deny even if we intellectually disagree with it.

In my Democracy in Pakistan article, I have said something about the (mis)use of the majority rule vis a vis the division of India. The majority rule must be applied only when all other methods of conflict resolution fail. A careful scrutiny of the Independence and Partition of India is needed to figure out if our political elite really tried their best.

The problem of Jammu and Kashmir needs to be historically and resolved politically. According to the Partition Plan, it was decided/agreed that the Muslim majority provinces/areas will go to Pakistan and Hindu majority areas will remain in India. However, the case of the princely states (such as Jammu and Kashmir, Hyderabad, etc.) was left to decided on the basis of their accession to either Pakistan or India.

Since Jammu and Kashmir is a contested territory, a peaceful and amicable resolution of this problem is imperative. I am sure, if both India and Pakistan sincerely want to solve this problem, they have the capacity to find an honorable resolution.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Sharmila, nice article. Let`s hope that these efforts will enhance odds of peaceful settlement.

My apologies for digressing from the main topic.

Excellent article in latest Economist on interest free banking in Pakistan beginning July 1. Sorry the link would not allow you to read it. Writer’s advice to Pakistani authorities is to follow Malaysian flexible model (within interest free system) and not that of Saudi Arabia.

The article also discusses recent failure of an Islamic bank in Turkey. All depositors lost their money including prominent Islamist politicians. The Turkish authorities had allowed the bank to run without the usual FDIC type protections.

I am tired of this NGO business. It is farce of well to do people to `do some thing`. I do not understand all this farce must have caused hundreds of thousand rupees for nothing. The central problems will not be solved by this just fun gathering. I have visited Jawaharlal Univ. about 20 years ago. I was astonished by these people talking about subjects in which `millions of real` indians or pakistanies would never be interested. They are just image copies of American left students. They were wearing all teeshirts proclaiming of berkely,green peace ,wearing tight pants,cosmetics,boys with earrings. It was kind of funny gathering,gigling taking pictures,saying we like pakistanies,they were quoting of child labor from american journals. I felt totally alien atmosphere to me and even indian elders i met were of same opinion. There is lot of hypocracy. If I am correct this Univ. is totally subsized by poor indian taxpayers how have really nothing. This children (most or many students are admitted by connection to ministers,govt.servants,local politicians)are not very bright or dedicated and extremely greedy. They practically do not pay boarding fees. This univ. has no real practical professional courses. The `so called`research from this particular univ. is really nothing. It is idealogical univ. connected with spreading of Nehru`s idea of socialism and blaming and making fun of local traditions and culture. If you want to go to place in India which has nothing of India this is Place to visit.

So called students are very revolutionary and care for poor exploited people so they feel they should be paid by poor indians. When govt of India decided to increase fees and boarding fees they started making troubles.

Why I know, because my relative use to be teacher in this place.

I call all readers to not to take this article too seriously. All leaders will be on lecture circuit in subcontinent soon. I feel these leaders will hard work usual jobs that will be great help to their countries. These fussy liberal idealists are mostly people who think stupid,uneducated people of their countries owe them good life.

This article was very well written. I agree with a lot of things that Ms Bakshi said. India has to ultimately find ways of matching its defense expenditure with economic needs of the people. If majority of people in the subcontinent feel that we need to unite and do something about poverty, nobody can stop them. How do we mobilize the masses. Gandhiji,during freedom struggle,mobilised the masses to fight against the British. Today, we need to fight another war, war against poverty.This war can never be won if it does not involve the masses. The question is how do we build a critical mass of popular support that will convince the government to cut down on wasteful defense expenditure,open up trade with neighbouring countries,etc. NGOs and movements that has been initiated by Akhil Bakshi are very useful in this regard. Is this enough though. I sense a general feeling of apathy to everything among the common man. Corruption is accepted as inevitable. People do not fight back. When sons and daughters of ministers and powerful bureaucrats get seats in medicine and engineering and people accept it as inevitable, we can be sure that things have gone too far.

Just take the relief work following earthquake in Gujarat. The GOI comes up with an increased taxation on the people. There is no talk about how to reduce government expenditure. One can imagine what the public reaction to such measures would have been in a country like USA.

So, though such efforts as mentioned by Ms Bakshi are laudable, i am afraid the effect would be miniscule.

Re: Kashmir

Though this thread is about increasing understanding and friendship among people of South Asia, some people seem to be preoccupied with Kashmir. The question i often had in mind was, if Kashmiris so badly want to be free as some of my Pakistani friends in this column would have me believe, what was their frame of mind from 1947 up until 1980s when this problem started. I visited Kashmir in 1978 with my parents. Kashmir was peaceful then. The impression i had was of a very hospitable,peaceloving people who,while very proud of their Kashmiriyat,were not in anyway hostile to the non-Kashmiris.

Genesis of the problem lies in denial of democratic aspirations of the people by successive Congress governments. I had said in another thread that a similar situation had existed in Tamil Nadu in the 60s but successful fulfillment of wishes of the people of the state resulted in defeat of seperatist movement in that state. Of course, the difference is Tamil Nadu does not share a border with Pakistan nor were there any Jihadis waging a religious war.

There can only be a diplomatic solution to this problem in the spirit of give and take. If Pakistanis thinks that Kashmir will fall on their lap like a ripe apple,they are mistaken. No country in the world would give in to terrorists. In this regard some people like Ayaz Amir (in Dawn)seem to be waking up to the menace of waging a Jihad. For,have we not all learned in our school the popular saying: those living in glass houses should not throw stones at others.

rsridhar

Remembering a Forgotten Heritage

By Syed Amir, Ph.D., Bethesda, MD

Until a few weeks ago, I had not visited India for many, many years and my son who grew up in the United States had never been there before. On our many previous visits to Pakistan, we never had the time, inclination or the opportunity to go back to India where our cultural roots lay and where our family had originated.

During the past half a century, the two countries have accumulated a reservoir of illwill, antagonism and apparently irredeemable hostility. It is ironic that the generation which had launched and nourished the Pakistan movement in the United India, now long departed, had known personally and intimately many of the leaders who were on the opposite side of the struggle. After all, Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah himself had been for many years a prominent leader of the Indian National Congress and had been closely associated with many leaders who subsequently assumed the reins of government in India.

The nature of relationships between the people of the two countries at all levels is, however, radically different now. Relatively few have ever crossed the divide and visited the other country. They have nurtured only unflattering images of each other, while misperceptions abound. Even contacts in areas of art, literature, poetry and science have recently been nonexistent, although these were the few domains where relations at some level survived long after political discourse became acrimonious.

These days Karachi and New Delhi are connected solely by the three weekly flights of PIA. Arriving from Karachi, as we landed at New Delhi airport on a wintry afternoon in mid January this year, we felt some degree of apprehension as to the kind of treatment we were likely to receive from the immigration and custom officers. The relations between the two countries have soured further since the military takeover in Pakistan, and we expected no warm welcome. However, we were treated politely and the airport formalities were completed in less than an hour. Many of the passengers disembarking from the plane, however, were Sikh travelers who worked in the Gulf States and found PIA service via Karachi both convenient and economical.

Coming from Pakistan and going around in cities of North India, one gets a surreal feeling of de.ja vu. Outwardly, the two countries appear so similar and share so many features. The common folks speak similar languages, whether Hindi, Urdu or Punjabi, and are nearly indistinguishable in their behavior and appearance. While ladies wear the same shalwar qameez on both sides, sherwani, once a hallmark of Muslim culture and nobility and almost abandoned in Pakistan, has been adopted by official circles in India for use at ceremonial occasions.

New Delhi in winter is a popular destination for many scientists and academicians who are invited to give talks at myriad scientific meetings and seminars. Our visit coincided with the arrival there of the British physicist Professor Steven Hawkins, who had come to deliver a lecture on the origin of the universe at Delhi University. The professor was receiving much attention in the national news media. Even the President of India, R. K. Narayanan, expressed a desire to attend his talk if he could come and be treated like others, without the pageantry and usual fanfare that accompanies him. Since Professor Hawkins is wheelchair bound, a secondary benefit of his visit was the awareness it generated of problems that disabled people face in daily life. Almost all the historic monuments in Delhi and Agra and probably other places are normally inaccessible to handicaps, consequently special structures had to be erected at sites such as the historic red fort and the Qutub Minar to make them accessible to him. Thanks to these new facilities, many disabled persons are now able to visit and enjoy some of those sites which previously required the ability to climb stairs.

The exquisite monuments in and around Delhi and Agra that attract so many foreign visitors are now part of Indian heritage. Nevertheless, it would be foolish and short-sighted if we as Pakistanis and Muslims renounce our claim on them, since they are just as much a part of our heritage and a testament to the majesty of the thousand-year Muslim rule in India. The present generation in Pakistan, cut off by a wall of mutual suspicion, has little or no acquaintance with these historic treasures left in India. The official policy of the two Governments has been to actively discourage free travel across the border. Occasionally, however, a few sane voices are raised against this mutually detrimental policy.

During our stay, for example, the former Prime Minister of India, Mr. Inder Kumar Gujral, who has long advocated a policy of friendship between two countries, in a newspaper article proposed the liberalization of visas to citizens of Pakistan as one of the devices to reduce mutual antipathy and misunderstanding. This suggestion is unlikely to be implemented soon; nevertheless, it was gratifying to observe that on both sides of the border, voices of belligerence, extremism and religious bigotry belong only to a distinct minority. As President John Kennedy once remarked in a different context “If we cannot now end our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity”.

sharmila,

Add this also to the statistics,

One jihadist setting off a bomb on an IA plane can kill 120 people and lead to the loss of 120 million dollars worth of aircraft.

20,000 madrassas producing 10 hardened jihadist per year and each in their search for shehdad kills 2 kafirs, that is 400,000 kafirs knocked out every year. If the kafir govt has invested 1000 dollars each in education and health in each of those kafirs, that is 400 million dollars down the drain for kafirs.

Now sharmila think of how many tanks can be economically deployed to stop the jihadists.

Here is an advice, while talking about peace, love, moral principles, never quote statistics. There was a time JNU produced some of the greats, Sudhir Kakar comes to mind, now things have changed, and you dont have to prove it. Violence and crime in the campus of JNU, we can read in the papers, you dont have to prove the outcome.

best wishs

jay

THUGS, DECOITS, AND TERRORISTS

It is interesting to note the ever-evolving buzz-words in the lingo of oppressors througout the world. Take for example our own beloved sub-continent. Those dissidents who used to raise voice against the Brits were once dubbed as ``Thugs``. Take for example how the freedom fighters of the ``Silk-Handkerchief Movement`` of Punjab were reffered to. I wonder if the word ``Thug`` in English has its origin in Punjabi or Urdu. Then Co. Bahadur thought that the word ``Thug`` does not deliver the strength of the intended meaning so it was changed to ``Decoit``. Our most prominent ``decoits`` thus are Roy Ahmad Khan Khurl from Punjab and Ali Sheedi from Sindh and Paalay Khan from Baluchistan. It is also interesting to note that the oppressed people always loved those decoits and thugs and still do no matter how hard oppressors made us to believe otherwise.

The new buzz-word for freedom fighters throughout the world now a days is ``Terrorist``. Whether they are freedom lovers of Ireland fighting against British Thugs or they are Kashmiri Mujahideens sacrificing their lives while fighting against Hindu-stani Decoits they are called ``Terrorists``. But the question still remains-will it change anything. You can fight against a person, you can tear his flesh apart, you can break every bone in his body, you can pull his heart out, you can poke hot iron in his eyes, and you can rape his loved ones, and you can burn his house down BUT how can you kill ones DETERMINATION. The is no weapon, no tanks, no dungeons and no poison and no method has been invented so far that can kill the WILL and DETERMINATION of man. Throughout the centuries oppressors all over the world have been creative to invent labels and attrocities to oppress but they have always failed. YOU WILL FAIL TOO. The thing that makes ones DETERMINATION and WILL invincible is the TRUTH. Unfortunately it is not on your side. It never is with the oppressors. No matter how hard you try your lies cannot turn into truth.

Harish and Rsridhar

More information about Indian state terrrorism in J & K from the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1177000/1177232.stm

Check out the first picture. Those Kashmiri boys don`t like they gotta lotta love for Mother India, do they? Maybe you need to plant more trees? Whaddya think?

---

India delays Kashmir decision

Thousands took to the streets to protest at the killings

The Indian Government has postponed a decision on whether to

extend a unilateral ceasefire in Kashmir, as police and troops try to

restore order in the region after days of rioting.

A decision had been expected at a meeting on Sunday, but was

delayed - apparently because a discussion of the Gujarat earthquake

ran longer than expected.

Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee is said to be in favour of

extending the ceasefire, while the home and defence ministers are

reported to oppose it.

Mr Vajpayee conceded that the results of the ceasefire had been

disappointing.

`Violence has not ebbed`

``The ceasefire did not achieve the results that we expected``, he said.

``Violence in Kashmir has not

ebbed. We thought Pakistan

would be able to rein back the

terrorists, but it has failed``, he

said.

India announced a unilateral

one-month ceasefire in Kashmir

in November in honour of the

Muslim holy month of Ramadan,

and subsequently extended it

twice.

The current extension is due to

expire on 26 February.

Violence on the ground

The Indian decision comes after several days of violence between

local Muslims and troops and police.

The reported death in custody of

a Kashmiri independence activist

prompted large crowds to take to

the streets of several cities.

On Thursday, troops opened fire

on protesters in Haigam, north of

the summer capital of Srinagar,

killing four.

As many as 25,000 people

gathered in Haigam on Sunday to

demonstrate against the killings

and pray for the victims.

There was a similar response in

Srinagar on Sunday, where police

opened fire, injuring two people.

Army regret

The army has expressed regret over Thursday`s deaths and vowed

to investigate.

``I give you my solemn word that

those of my men who are

blameworthy will be brought to

book and dealt with according to

the law``, the Indian Army`s 15

Corps chief John Ray Mukherjee

said on Sunday.

India and Pakistan have been

struggling over Kashmir for more

than 50 years. Both control part

of the territory and claim all of it.

Many local militants, meanwhile,

are fighting for complete

independence.

An estimated 34,000 people have died in the conflict since the

independence struggle began in 1989.

The Indian ceasefire has not put a halt to separatist violence.

At least 16 people, including 11 policemen, have been killed by

militants since November.

Bilal # 7

Unfortunately for Pakistan, they don’t have a morale argument for Kashmir because the basis of partition itself was immoral. When is it ever moral to force religious minorities to leave in order to make way for a religious state? i think many Pakistanis understand this sentiment when framed in the context of the Palestinians.

I am not convinced that a peaceful solution to the Kashmir problem is imperative b/c I know that the only solution acceptable to India (making the LoC the official boundary) will never be satisfactory for Kashmir-obsessed-Pakistan. So there is no solution to this problem and to paraphrase U.S. Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, when a problem has no solution, it is not a problem but a fact. The only thing India can do is to maintain the status quo.

Urstruly # 13

Your post is pretty self-righteous. I don’t think you call people who hijack civilian airplanes (like the air India flight from Nepal to delhi in dec 99) freedom fighters. But over the long term, I do agree with you that truth does prevail. However, this is not always the case in the short term, otherwise, states based on religious hatred, like Pakistan, would never have come into existence.

Ref Urstruly #: 13

[You can fight against a person, you can tear his flesh apart, you can break every bone in his body, you can pull his heart out, you can poke hot iron in his eyes, and you can rape his loved ones, and you can burn his house down BUT how can you kill ones DETERMINATION. The is no weapon, no tanks, no dungeons and no poison and no method has been invented so far that can kill the WILL and DETERMINATION of man. Throughout the centuries oppressors all over the world have been creative to invent labels and attrocities to oppress but they have always failed.]

You are so right. That is exactly why Hinduism has survived in India.

Thanks for describing in graphic detail the tactics used by Islamist thugs during 10 centuries of rule over Northern India.

Hey Sharmila,

Two can play at this `hands across the borders` game...LOL!

---

Azad Kashmiris plan peace trip to Held Kashmir (from The News)

(Updated at 1845 PST)

ISLAMABAD: A group of leading Azad Kashmiris said Sunday they planned to attend an unprecedented peace meeting to be held in Jammu

city of the bisected valley.

Kashmiris said Ghulam Nabi Shah had invited a delegation of 60 politicians and intellectuals from Azad Kashmir to a conference scheduled from March 17-18. They said the number of delegates who

would travel depended on how many were granted visas by New Delhi.

Bilal # 7

Unfortunately for Pakistan, they don’t have a morale argument for Kashmir because the basis of partition itself was immoral. When is it ever moral to force religious minorities to leave in order to make way for a religious state? i think many Pakistanis understand this sentiment when framed in the context of the Palestinians.

I am not convinced that a peaceful solution to the Kashmir problem is imperative b/c I know that the only solution acceptable to India (making the LoC the official boundary) will never be satisfactory for Kashmir-obsessed-Pakistan. So there is no solution to this problem and to paraphrase U.S. Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, when a problem has no solution, it is not a problem but a fact. The only thing India can do is to maintain the status quo.

Urstruly # 13

Your post is pretty self-righteous. I don’t think you call people who hijack civilian airplanes (like the air India flight from Nepal to delhi in dec 99) freedom fighters. But over the long term, I do agree with you that truth does prevail. However, this is not always the case in the short term, otherwise, states based on religious hatred, like Pakistan, would never have come into existence.

harish #6: ``Why does Kashmir need to be a part of Pakistan or independent just because they have a muslim majority``

The religious, ethnic or any other kind of identity of any region of world should not, by law, be the basis for deciding to which country that region should belong. In the context of Kashmir, it should not be independent or be part of Pakistan or India because of religion. The only criteria for where it ends up should be the wishes of its people. If the people base their wishes on religion, ethnicity, political beliefs, or any other factor, then they should be given the right to do so. So all Muslim areas/peoples of Asia should not be part of Pakistan or India (or be independent of Pakistan or India); only the ones whose people voluntarily want to be.

It is unfortunate that this struggle has been misrepresented in the Indian (and to some extent the Pakistani) media.

I agree with anyone who argues that Pakistanis and Indians need to interact more to gain an understanding of each other. The more interaction, the better. At the same time I agree with the people who argue that if someone in India really wants to do a good deed, which will far outweigh any kind of India-Pakistan interaction, they should point out the actions of their govt. in Kashmir. Until an internal objective human rights based approach regarding this issue is developed in India, I doubt the relations between India and Pakistan will improve. Only the Indian people can encourage their govt. to stop its actions (currently fully supported by the average Indian) in Kashmir. I would encourage the Indians to disassociate with their own media (and the Pakistani media), regarding this issue, and follow the international media, and human rights organizations and the UN relatively unbiased views.

At the same time, I do not agree with the people who pass on the blame of the poor India Pakistani relationship onto their respective govts. That is a very easy way to rid one of one`s own responsibilities, and pass the buck. The buck actually stops with the people. The reason there is conflict between the Indians and Pakistanis is because of the people`s views. I have seen it first hand here in the USA. Indians and Pakistanis get along great individually. But the moment they get to the community level organizations, they are at each other`s throat. Indian organizations generally being much larger than Pakistani ones tend to really go on the offensive (I hope TiE doesn`t go down that route).

It is imperative that Indians and Pakistanis meet each other as much as possible, on an individual level (not at an organizational level). There views about each other will definitely change. I went from studying military plans against India in Pakistan, to sharing a room with an Indian in America within a few weeks. And my views definitely changed.

At the same time, I don`t think such interactions are really going to change anything on the national scale. The reason, of course is Kashmir. And this problem will not be solved until people in India develop a human rights based outlook to what their govt. is doing in Kashmir. They need to get away from their Pakistan-centric view; at least on this issue, since this is not only a political problem, it is a human rights problem, in which tens of thousands of people have been killed due to Indian government`s actions.

Unfortunately, I have not noticed any such human rights based view emerging amongst the Indians, in general, and on this site. Most are more than happy to accept what the Indian media and govt. offers them, and are unwilling to think independently on this issue (there are a few human rights organizations in India which do carry a human rights based view on this issue, but they are very tiny minority).

Pakistanis held the same views regarding East Pakistan, during the whole Bangladesh struggle. They justified every action of the Pakistani govt. by pointing to the counter-actions of the Bangladeshis, be it the Mukti Bahni, or anything else. Pakistan has had to pay the price for that for a long time. However, I think Pakistanis have finally, through a lot of introspection, come to terms with the fact that Pakistan was in the wrong, regardless of the counter-actions of the Bangladeshi freedom fighters/terrorists (choose your own word). Better late than never.

Indians need to carry out a similar introspection regarding their support of their govts. actions in Kashmir. Just because India is in a cold war with Pakistan, or because Pakistan supports Kashmir, doesn`t justify India`s desire to subjugate the Kashmiris and keep them under India`s control. The argument that India is at war with Pakistan, Pakistan supports the Kashmiri struggle, hence India is justified in killing Kashmiris may hold water at the nationalistic scale, but not on the scales of human rights.

Once the average Indian comes to terms with India`s actions in Kashmir, and denounces them, instead of trying to find reasons (jehadis casuing all the problems, Pakistan causing the problems, the Kashmiris are asking for it themselves by counter-attacking etc; the historically standard justifications by all subjugators given for genocides) to justify the actions, I think slowly but surely the relations between India and Pakistan, and Indians and Pakistanis will move towards their natural balance, i.e. two friendly neighbors with somewhat different societies but similar problems, with average to good relations on the national level, and very good relations on the individual level.

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ahmadb #7,

Excellent post with excellent points.

Such ``feel good`` missions are useless and pointless until the root of the problem is solved.

They may make us feel better temporarily, but as soon as an innocent dies in Kashmir (whether the culprit is India or Pakistan) bad feelings are created in the two countries.

India and Pakistan have to stop fooling around and get down to business. Then, maybe, after the Kashmir issue is resolved, we can start dissolving our defense budgets and put them to better use for the good of South Asia.

Dear Mr/Ms. Bakshi

I think I should apologize to you for my harsh tone in my first post (only the harsh tone and not for the content). You must have figured that out by yourself that my bitterness has some bases.

You sound like an intelligent and honest person and our sub-continent needs young and energetic persons like yourself who have courage and will to change the world. My concern, however, is the method and approach to solve this problem.

I know that I sound like enemy and I write like an enemy and therefore I must be an enemy. Yes, that is true; but is it also true that I might be telling the truth?

Some 30 years ago there were students like yourself whom every body considered worthless. They were labelled as hippies and haray rama haray krishna LSD injesting day dreamers but they changed the world. At that time the most self-righteous government in the world (even now)i.e. United States was lying to its own people. While they were incinerating whole villages with Nepalm Bombs and their chemical weapons in Vietnam. They were carrying out this genocide not for 2 or 3 or 10 or 20 years. They were doing it for the past 35 years. US government was constantly lying to its own people about the acts of genocide throughout.

Then some brave students like yourself took upon themselves and refused to take part in this crime against humanity. They were jailed, labelled as traitors, and even were shot and killed. But they never let go of the truth that they had realized.

My Dear Bakshi, It will be people like yourselves, the students, who can save Kashmiri from this genocide which Indian Army and Indian Government is committing not for 2 or 3 or 4 or 10 years. They have been doing it for the past 13-14 years now. The first question that you shoulkd ask from your Naytaas (politicians) is why 700,000 army is not able to stop few thousand freedom fighters (estimate less than 10,000). Please keeep in mind that Indian Army in Kashmir i.e. 700,000 of them is almost double in number from the total army of Pakistan; whereas Indian Occupied Kashmir is only one sixth the size of Pakistan. Please ask your leaders why they have brought the one sixth of humanity at the brink of Nuclear Holocaust. What kind of danger was India in when they decided to put the whole sub-continenet at the brink of Nuclear disaster? Please ask.

Dear Bakshi- The killing of civilians without proper trial at the hands of army is a crime against humanity. International Court of Justices` War Crime cell mandates such actions to be tried under war crimes act.

It is people like you who must act now and save India from the humiliation like US in Vietnam and Russia in Afghanistan. Bear in mind that laws of nature are infallible and they are blind. One such law is- YOU CANNOT FIGHT PEOPLE.

PLease act now. Organize your friends and family and seek the truth. Ask your government to stop these crimes against humanity. Do not listen to your countrymen at Chowk-what kind of human being would justify the killing and genocide, but they do. They are blinded by hate. Seek the truth yourself. Ask your government why they are not letting human rights organizations in Kashmir.

Long Live Truth. Truth=Peace.

Umairr #19,

I have been following the Kashmir issue for quite some time and these are my personal views as an Indian - I don`t know how many other Indians subscribe to the same p.o.v.:

- Under no circumstances should J&K go out of the Indian Union. Not to Pakistan, not as an independent entity, no division/trifurcation.

- My `vision` for J&K is that the rule of law will prevail, peace will prevail, the people there will enjoy the full political, social and economic benefits as other citizens in India. This can happen only when militancy dies down (as in Punjab) or comes down to an `acceptable` level for normal life to resume.

- Indian security forces may have committed excesses - the guilty will have to be punished. This is no different from the custodial deaths (in police custody) that happen everywhere else in the country - it has to be viewed as an aberration, the guilty will have to be punished.

- What is the role for Pakistan? I do not see any value of holding talks with Pakistan. India has nothing to gain and much to lose by talks - it can only concede, not gain anything. Pakistan has only everything to gain both by talks and by the continued militancy in J&K. Nothing that Pakistan can `concede` - eg. reining in of militants - can compensate for any concessions that India will be expected to make. We should rather bear the costs of militancy and concentrate on putting it down or wearing them down.

- I am ambivalent on Pak Occupied Kashmir - ideally I would like it to be part of India, as per our legal position, but at present do not see how that can happen. The current status quo is okay.

- I am ambivalent on the issue of autonomy too - ideally equal rights as with the other states, or as limited an autonomy as possible to `buy` peace with the local people. In the long run, I am convinced that India will have to transfer more powers from the Centre to the states anyway. A strong Centre cannot meet the needs and aspirations of one billion plus people. More power to the states and local authorities is inevitable. However, I am equally hopeful that states will continue to remain in the Indian Union as it makes the most sense (even in economic terms) to do so, apart from traditional, cultural and other ties with each other.

I see the Indian Union being somewhat like the European Union - single currency, common parliament, single army, single foreign policy, but with more powers to states.

Re: Kashmir

I am not sure if India can solve this problem without talking to Pakistan which is what it is trying to avoid. Pakistan on the other hand will never get India to talk if Jihad goes on and Pakistan is seen to be remote controlling the Jihad. It is a catch 22 for Pakistan. If it wants to talk, it has to shun violence and stop helping the Jihadis. If it does this, the very Jihadis who Pakistan is helping may turn against it. Next few months will be interesting. It will tell us if Musharraf is really serious about reigning in the Jihadis as is becoming increasingly clear from the news coming out of Pakistani newspapers.

As far as the people who are getting killed in Kashmir, my sympathies are with innocent civilians. These things are inevitable. After all we are defending our turf and are dealing with hardcore terrorists. I have no sympathies for these people for whom Kashmir is just a testing ground and so i am not impressed by the URLs posted in this forum about the number of terrorists killed in Kashmir. I may add that i also do not have any sympathies for the Tamil terrorists who are killed in Srilanka despite being a Tamilian myself. Mahatma Gandhi showed us many years ago that freedom from a great power can be won by peaceful means. So I do not understand what the Kashmiris stand to gain by continuing to support the violent struggle when this has not gotten them anywhere. As long as there is violence, India will have (or find) justification for resisting the violence. The western powers understand this. Have they not seen what is happening in Ireland or for that matter in Srilanka. A peaceful struggle, on the other hand immediately shifts world`s sympathies to the side of the aggrieved party. I see the peaceful struggle as the only way out for the Kashmiris. For this to happen,Jihad in Kashmir must stop and Kashmir must come back to a normal civilian life. Pakistan can help Kashmiris achieve this but the question is are the Pakistanis interested in the well being of Kashimiris or are they doing all this just to see Kashmir join their country,by whatever means?

rsridhar

SAPLINGS AND OTHER STORIES

Once up on a time, long long ago, some people longed for peace, they planted saplings as symbols of their desire. Some like yrstruly soaked it with sulphuric acid, some like bilal nurtured it with water, a few like the shrinks talked to the saplings, others ignored the `sapling drive`.

Years passed, none of the saplings grew , they all withered, gently, slowly. They went to the wise old owl, ``tell us why our saplings stayed the same``. The wise old owl went to each of their saplings, uprooted each, showed them...there were no roots, the saplings were made of plastic.

There is a moral, allways check and ensure that you use recycled plastic, it is good for the environment

Hands accross the ditch

In india many engineers hold senior positions in IT and other industries. It represents a value system and any similarity will be helpful to stretch the hands accross the divide. The following is from dawn of today and shows how the engineers are treated in a leading edge pak industry. There is clear evidence that in pakistan, less is more in the case of education, degree is less than trade qualification at PIA, trade qualifications are less than madrassa ones. Long live the pak IT dreams.

Graduate engineers` plea

THE graduate engineers at PIA are being continuously denied of their due rights and despite a large number of appeals by them,`` Pakistan Engineering Council has failed to implement its rules in PIA. Many graduate engineers approached the PEC but to no avail. This has resulted in a brain drain from PIA and PIA engineering management and Pakistan Engineering Council are directly responsible for this.

Some of the grievances of graduate engineers are:

A graduate engineer should be given BPS-17 or equivalent in a government or semi- government job but PIA gives group 5 equivalent to BPS-16.

Graduate engineers should be under another graduate engineer and not under an undergraduate as in PIA.

Graduate engineers are not confirmed in their jobs till 8-10 years of service but all other employees get their confirmation after 6 months.

Graduate engineers are being given the status of non-confirmed and non-productive.

Due to their non-confirmed status they are being denied of the facilities which other employees of same pay group enjoy.

The graduate engineers are also discriminated regarding promotion and the technicians are preferred over the graduate engineers.

The graduate engineers appeal to the PEC to look into the matter and do the needful.

GRADUATE ENGINEERS OF PIA

Karachi

Umairr,

Re post#19

I agree with the sentiment of your post. If we look at the Kashmir problem from a human rights standpoint, I`m ashamed at what the Indian govt is doing to the Kashmiris. Every human being has the right to self determination. Unfortunately, throughout human history, the strong have dominated the weak, usually by brute force. Ultimately, the strong justify the use of force when the weak use violence to express their rights.

Whether you look at Kashmiris or Palestinians; both have been oppressed from a human rights point of view. However, in the past century, have either group succeeded by violent freedom fighting methods? After the Munich massacre, hardly anybody in the nonIslamic world had any sympathy for the Palestinians. The PLO`s terrorist policy didnt gain them an inch of Palestine; no matter how righteous their cause.

For the sake of argument, lets say 100% of the mujahadeen are indigenous Kashmiris. Have they won an inch of IHK in these last 10 years? If anything, it has hardened the stance of the Indian govt & Indian citizens. Collectively, it has given us Indians an excuse to rationalise the military`s atrocities. This dominant discourse that most Pakistani`s have to ``bleed India in Kashmir`` is a delusion ,IMO. When the mujahadeen attack Indians, India doesnt bleed blood. It collectively oozes testesterone & makes us more hard lined.

For those who believe that the ``bleeding by mujahadeen`` policy is a victory because India will be forced to come to the negotiating table--its an excercise in futility. India may come to the negotiating table. However, in no way will India give Pakistan what it wants. At the most, it will be willing to concede that the LOC is the international border. Even then, it will hem & haw & exploit every disagreement between the mujahadeen & Hurriet groups. The talks will end up in a deadlock or stalemate. Each country will blame the other for not negotiating in good faith & the problem will continue & the Kashmiris will continue to suffer.

The mujahadeen are the part of the problem, not part of the solution. Other than Pakistan, NO other country considers them ``freedom fighters``. Oh please dont quote OIC resolutions to us--we all know what they stand for. Also, like it or not, the US is the sole superpower. The prevailing US views is that they are terrorists, with links to Bin Laden. Western Europe will either back the US, or at the most, remain neutral. Russia considers them terrorists, China is definitely not comfortable with them. All these countries are eager to tap India`s potential.

Who does Pakistan have on her side as far as Kashmir is concerned? By herself, Pakistan is militarily & economically weak. She is definitely going to be increasingly fundamentalist as days go by, IMO. She doesnt have the sugar daddy US/CIA support (which was instrumental in dislodging the Soviets in Afghanistan). Sure, Pakistan will be happy to portray a few Islamic countries who murmur polite diplomatic sympathies about Kashmir. Heck, it will take more than that to dislodge India from Kashmir.

So, in conclusion, what does Pakistan have in way of support of Kashmir--Amnesty International?!. Sure AI has slammed India. But what does AI say about Pakistan? Not very flattering. Its a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. Can Pakistan rely entirely on the mujahadeen? She risks being increasingly isolated internationally, by doing so. More likely, the mujahadeen will realise, sooner or later, that the first jihad has to be fought inside Pakistan. NOBODY believes Pakistan`s stance that she is only giving ``moral & political`` support to them. Jeez, does Mushy actually believe the world was born yesterday?!

The only time the weak have prevailed over the strong is when they have a charismatic leader who denounces & renounces violence completely & then maintains a policy of peaceful non violent confrontation & civil disobedience. Such a scenario is not likely to happen in Kashmir.

I agree with you that more Indians should denounce their govt`s behavior in Kasmir. By the same token, should`nt more Pakistanis denounce the behavior of the mujahadeen? Even you call them ``freedom fighters``. You justify their behavior as acceptable because of GOI`s behavior. Two wrongs dont make a right!

You have to realise it irks us Indians that Pakistanis (URstruly, for eg) stand up on this self righteous pedestal & equate us to genocidal beasts---like Pakistan is this benign, peace loving, human rights caring paradise on earth. If you guys are doing it to feel good about yourselves, be my guest. My violin performance in the background will be memorable. But once again, wake up & smell the chai,if the rest of the world doesnt give a damn about what you say--do you really believe it will change Indian minds?

Re: Umairr

Umairr, you refused to answer my question put to you in post `What is Blasphemy` #606, even though I gave a detailed response to your questions. My question was (I repeat), ``will you support a cessation of all jehadi activities (fund-raising, recruitment, infiltration, etc) from Pakistani soil, directed at India, and as called for by Pakistan’s government so that a peaceful solution can be worked out?`` You had pointedly refused to answer this question then, and maybe you will do so now again. Let all know where you stand on this issue before you raise the human-rights issue again.

I had indicated that there is a political, strategic (security), human-rights, legal-constitutional and a domestic security dimension to Kashmir. To highlight or emphasize just one, while ignoring others will never lead to a stable solution. Besides, nobody is convinced that the Indian political system does not offer any remedy to the rest of India, that is not also automatically offered to Kashmir (elections, full citizenship, free press, etc.). Unless, this were to change substantially against the interests of Kashmiris, I doubt that many Indians will be moved by an argument that hinges on human-rights alone (distasteful that they may be).

You have also, I might add, in various posts expressed deep satisfaction that the Kashmir insurgency is serving Pakistan`s security interests by `pinning down 700,000 soldiers in Kashmir, which would have otherwise been available for action elsewhere`. Leaving aside the merits of this specious argument in a purely security-focused framework, please tell the world how you square your professed alarm at human-rights abuses in Kashmir while SIMULTANEOUSLY drawing satisfaction from the fact that the presence of the alleged perpetrators of abuses in Kashmir is also a benefit to Pakistan (by reducing the pressure on Pakistan army elsewhere). You have made both arguments in the past, leaving one to wonder -- are you truly speaking on behalf of the Kashmiris? If you were, then any collateral benefit to Pakistan should be of little value.

AHIMSA- ANY OPPRESSORS` FASCINATION

Ahimsa or Non-Violence is any oppressors dream. It is interesting to note that these two buzz-words are at the top of any oppressors wish-list around the world; Be it Indians in Kashmir, Russians in Chechneya, Zeonists in Palestine, British thugs in Ireland, or American Haraami in Middle East-all of them want it. It is their mantra.

What is more interesting is that they want the oppressed to act on the principles of Ahimsa or non-violence whereas they consider themselves above it. It does not apply to them. It is not them who should take an INITIATIVE to exercise Ahimsa. It is the oppressed, who gasps for air to keep alive, should act on it. Gosh! What a tangled web these oppressors weave.

Personally, I think Ahimsa is the biggest scam that was ever pulled in the history of mankind. Incidentally, it is our very own neighbor India whose founding father Mr. Gandhi pulled that stunt. And why wouldn’t British or any Colonial and Capitalist oppressors throughout the world love it? Britain needed someone to help them pull through two near-fatal World Wars, one after the other, and to coup with the post war trauma-and voila…..Mr. Gandhi gave it to them on silver platter; the Ahimas- This Ahimsa shi-t has added at least 30 years to our slavery to Britain. Thanks a lot Mr. Gandhi.

Now the dissidents of Gandhi want Kashmiri Freedom Fighters to lay down weapons, start chanting Haray Raama Haray Krishna, march in the cities with pigeons sitting on their shoulders.

Dear Indians! If you want Ahimsa to work here:

- how about declaring a general amnesty to all Freedom Fighters.

- Lift off state of emergency from the occupied Kashmir.

- Announce a compensation plan to all victims.

- An un-conditional apology to all Kashmiris and especially Kashmiri women whom have suffered the most at the hands of Indian Army

- A five-year development plan to help rebuild Kashmir.

- Allowing Human Rights organizations to monitor India`s promises on improvement of Human Rights aka Ahimsa.

- Scrapping all ``Investigation/Torture Cells``.

- Stopping all extra-judicial murders.

Only then one may assume that you are serious about your promises. Only then you will be able to separate alleged ``infiltrators`` sent by Pakistan from the peace loving Kashmiris. Otherwise it means that you are just buying time to put some more murders and rapes on your tab. You must first deserve then desire.

Did anyone notice that there is no mention of succession or giving Kashmir to Pakistan in the above Ahimsa wish list? Can you ask your government to do that? Do you have the MORAL COURAGE?

Well said shammi. You write well. It is difficult for me to add anything more than what you have already said. Kashimir problem will be solved if peace comes to the valley first. Jihadis who are fighting with the mindset that they can get what they want by violence are denying Kashmiris the very thing they desire most,viz. peace. In this regard the statement of Hurriyat saying that Kashmir is a political and not a religious issue is encouraging. Looks like Kashmiris have seen through the game of deception that is being enacted by the Jihadis who, as i have said in another thread,have a much broader issue in mind and Kashmir happens to be just a symptom of the disease.

sridhar

Re: Kashmir

Kashmir cannot be equated with Vietnam. Vietnam was a foreign land where U.S was waging a war. Kashmir belongs to India legally and constitutionally. For this status to change,all parties concerned (India,Pakistan and Kashmiris) must sit down and discuss all options. This can happen only when peace is established and not a day sooner. I have already said before what Pakistan can do to establish that peace. Until then India will do everything in its power to defend its territory.

Regarding the ``bleeding the India`` theory that is circulating among the Jihadis and the military rulers of Pakistan,as Shanker has said,the theory is far-fetched. Let us for a moment suppose that at some point of time India does decide that it is not cost-effective anymore to defend Kashmir the way it is doing now,what do you think will be its response? For starters,it will attack the training camps across the border. Indian army generals are known to have been in favor of a more proactive policy which includes such a step (the politicians,who make all decisions,are not in favor of this). Depending on Pakistan`s response,we may then have either a conflict that is localised to Kashmir or a fullfledged war. Knowing this very well,India may be trying for a peaceful solution even while preparing for the worst scenario. Seen in this light,all the recent defense purchases make some sense. The question is are the Pakistanis prepared for a full scale war? Is it worth the sacrifice? Is not a peaceful settlement of the issue a much more reasonable alternative?

sridhar

rsridhar

INDIAN CONSTITUTION, HUNH?

# 31

Kashmir is not a constitutional issue. It never was. The issue has its basis in the formula of partition. The issue first materialized even before the partition took place whereas Indian Constitution was adopted in 1956. So Kashmir is never constitunally India`s. One might say the issue of Khalistan is a constitutional issue because it was raised well after all parties (with in India) agreed to a constitution.

A referendum in Indian subjugated Kashmir will decide the ``constitutionality`` of the issue with in a matter of hours.

Instead of saplings and trees, another way to get peace would be to throw up a wall of poison gas on the LoC and across the entire border. Once the jehadis sneaking into Indian territory get a sniff, peace will prevail.

From the New York Times. Remainder of the article is at http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/19/world/19PAKI.html.

{{Pakistani Journalists May Face Death for Publishing Letter

By BARRY BEARAK







PESHAWAR, Pakistan, Feb. 18 — That calamitous night, the editor left in charge of the newspaper`s letters page was a heroin addict, just a few days out of detox.

As he recalls it now, his prescribed sedatives were proving no match for his cravings. When a long letter to the editor arrived via e-mail, he barely read past the title, which seemed to him harmless enough: ``Why Muslims Hate Jews.``

Pakistan is a Muslim country. ``I thought if the letter was negative to anyone, it`d be negative to Jews,`` the editor, Munawwar Mohsin, said by way of alibi, looking thoroughly woebegone and sitting in Peshawar`s central jail. He had put the letter at the top of the section.

This careless editing may now prove his fatal undoing, for Mr. Mohsin and six of his colleagues at The Frontier Post have been charged under the nation`s blasphemy law, which can carry the death sentence. The wordy letter, published on Jan. 29, turned out to be a sacrilegious attack on the holy Prophet Muhammad. A furious mob was soon on its way to the newspaper`s offices, with outraged policemen not far behind.

The authorities immediately shut down the paper, whose nervous management then bought ad space in the pages of its rivals to make abject apology. The amends claimed that the English-language Frontier Post was itself the victim of some unspecified conspiracy. ``We appeal to the nation to stand by us in this hour of adversity and sympathize with us,`` the ad said.

But piety, and not pity, was the prevailing sentiment here in Peshawar, a city of one million people that sits to the east of the Khyber Pass near the border with Afghanistan. Leaders of fundamentalist political parties urged dramatic displays of dismay. On Jan. 30, as outnumbered policemen looked on, protesters torched the Frontier Post`s printing press, with piles of unsold newspapers serving as fodder for the fire.

At this juncture, the nation`s military ruler, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, made public his own consternation, though it did not include any condemnation of the mob. His disapproval focused on the abuse of ``press freedom`` that had allowed the blasphemous letter into print.

To many of his critics, his response seemed indicative of the general`s inability or unwillingness to take on the Islamic fundamentalists — and yet another portent of the nation`s drift toward religious intolerance.

Pakistan, with 150 million people, is a near-bankrupt country with a nuclear arsenal and explosive problems. In October 1999, the army seized power in a coup, and General Musharraf declared himself the steward of a modern and tolerant state. He promised social reforms, but whenever he has met opposition from the fundamentalists, he has backed down.

Indeed, in April the general tried to modify the blasphemy law, which, according to civil rights groups, is often used in personal vendettas and the persecution of minorities. The proposal was modest, urging more investigation before charges are filed; nonetheless, when fundamentalists objected, it was discarded.

By any standard, the letter in The Frontier Post of Jan. 29 was blasphemous. Mr. Mohsin, the heroin addict, finally got around to reading it in the morning. He was at home, he said. A colleague phoned to alert him about angry calls to the newspaper. }}

Urstruly #29

India has sent 700000 troops to the Vale with the instruction to use any means - torture, rape, murder, anything - to break the will of the Kashmiri nation and to therefore secure the Indian occupation. And these Indians have the gall to come to a Pakistani website and to start talking about `peaceful solutions`! They had forty-two years from 1947 to 1989 to implement a peaceful solution to this dispute. Isn`t 42 years enough??

The simple truth is that they are not interested in any solution that frees the Vale from their illegal and immoral occupation. Did you read post #6 by harish? He has the temerity to question our soveriegn right over our own motherland. This is the root of the Indo-Pakistan dispute: the Indian belief that the whole of South Asia is a jageer bestowed on them by Bapu Gandhi.

rsridhar, shammir and harish

``We have declared that the fate of Kashmir is

ultimately to be decided by the people of Kashmir. That pledge we have given is not only to the people of Kashmir but to the whole world.``

Pandit Jawahirlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India,

(All India Radio address, November 2, 1947)

``We have given our pledge to the people of Jammu &

Kashmir and subsequently to the United Nations; we

stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the

people of Kashmir decide.``

Pandit Jawahirlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India,

(address to the Indian Parliament on 12 February, 1951)

``The Government of India and the Government of Pakistan reaffirm their wish that the future status of the state of Jammu and Kashmir shall be determined in accordance with the will of the people.``

(UN Resolution 13 August, 1948)

In response to jay (Reply # 25)
Dear Jay:

Interesting fable!

The saplings that I had planted were real. The difficulty lies in the fact that there are at present more people who continue to uproot the saplings.

We need better educators to make the uprooters realize the follies of their actions. However, the Indians needs to fulfill their moral responsibility, while the Pakistani need to struggle peacefully for a moral victory of all sane voices all over the world, including Jammu and Kashmir, India, and Pakistan.

Jammu and Kashmir is a contested territory, it needs a dignified peaceful political resolution.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Urstruly,

What will happen now? Are you willing to start a training camp in your backyard?

``UK enforces new anti-terrorism laws

LONDON: New anti-terrorism laws have come into force in Britain from Monday, with the Terrorism Act giving ministers the power to add groups to a list of banned organisations.

Police have also been given increased powers to seize assets and make arrests. Cyber-terrorists who hack into computers to undermine governments or threaten lives are also covered by the legislation.

Once an organization is on the list --which currently includes Irish Republican Army (IRA) and the Ulster Volunteer Force --it is illegal to be a member of the group, support it financially, display its emblems or share a platform with a member at a meeting of three or more people.

The law replaces the 1973 Prevention of Terrorism Act, which gave the police special powers to stop, search, arrest and detain terrorist suspects and had to be renewed each year.

This new legislation has been introduced partly in response to complaints from foreign governments, including India, that Britain offers a safe haven to groups that carry out violent campaigns in their countries.

Some Britain-based Muslim organisations have expressed their opposition to the legislation. Among them is Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, leader of the radical Muslim group Al-Muhajiroun, who has called on his members to fight the occupiers of Muslim land.

Bakri says many young British Muslims train in military camps abroad and then go off to fight in areas of conflict, such as Kashmir or the Middle East to perform what they describe as their Islamic duty. Such ``volunteers`` will now go underground to continue their activities.(AP)``

Dionysus

Yes, I do question Pakistan’s right to exist in the same way many muslims question Israel’s right to exist. In the same way israel forced palestinians to leave, pakistan forced millions of non-muslims (mainly hindus and sikhs) to flee. This is why I question pakistan’s right to exist.

And as I’m sure you agree, the kashmir problem is nothing but an extension of partition. So if india can not morally reconcile the existence of pakistan, in the same way palestinians cannot reconcile the existence of israel, how can india honor pakistan’s claims on kashmir?



At best pakistanis only speak for muslims, but kashmir includes more then just its muslim majority, including the indian kashmiri you quoted in post # 36.

I know none of this persuades you, but hopefully, it gives you some insight as to why the world doesn’t buy pakistan’s arguments about kashmir. As others have already pointed out, pakistan’s assertions about indian oppression in kashmir is truly a case of the kettle calling the pot black.

p.s. you wrote, “And these Indians have the gall to come to a Pakistani website and to start talking about `peaceful solutions`!” is this a pakistani only website? :)

This is for the IDIOT who`s in the frenzied state of cutting/pasting anti-Pakistan newspaper articles:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/15/kashmir.shootings/

``SRINAGAR, Kashmir -- Escorts of an

Indian army convoy in Indian-controlled Kashmir have fired on a group of demonstrators killing four civilians including two women and critically

wounding 18 others. The demonstrators were blocking the main Srinagar-Barramullah highway in protest against the alleged custodial killing of local shopkeeper, Jaleel Ahmed

Shah, arrested a day before by the Special Operations Group (SOG) of the local police....``

So much for the righteous Indian army. Those cowards are killing women and civilians instead of their so called enemies the jihadists.

The Indian government ought to be ashamed of itself, slaughtering innocents behind the flag of peace.

Here`s another example of the ``righteous`` Indian army`s quest for Kashmiri peace. These BUZDIL ``soldiers`` are firing bullets to counter stones.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/16/india.kashmir/

``Authorities in the Indian-administered Kashmir imposed curfew in the civil line areas in the city after troops opened fire to disperse stone-throwing demonstrators shouting pro-freedom slogans. A senior police officer said a 16-year-old boy identified as Javed Ahmad Nath

died in the firing by the troops in the Maisuma locality in uptown Srinagar.

The other five injured persons are undergoing treatment in the hospital here.

Hundreds of people including women and children came out on the streets in Maisuma defying curfew restrictions as the body of Nath was brought back to his home.``

My question to Indians is, why can`t your government let the Kashmiris decide their own fate? You helped Bengalis determine theirs?

The blood of innocent people is on India`s hands.

Not a very noble idea for the world`s largest ``democracy.``

What a farce!

Harish3

Muslims who question Israel`s right to exist are nothing but bigots. By the same token the Indians who preoccupy themselves with the notion of reunification are just adding fuel to the fire that burns the flag of peace.

I am a Muslim, and I dont question the right of Israel to exist! Bigotry is the devil that plagues most of our respective fellow countrymen. Live and let live.

There will be no peace in Middle East or in South Asia, unless people come to terms with the existence of Pakistan, Israel and Palestine and that is a promise. No peace without honor!

BTW Harish check out the following site...

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7295/

Yasser Hamdani

tsk, tsk, beeeeycharey fundamentalists, kwamakha badnaam kiye jaa rahe hai`n..

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/feb/19pak1.htm

``Pakistan not against jihad in Kashmir: Haider

K J M Varma in Islamabad

The military government ruling Pakistan has said it is not against the Islamic groups carrying out a jihad (Islamic holy war) in Kashmir, but is against the creation of a ``phobia`` in the name of Islamic fundamentalism, media reports on Monday said.

``Our government is not against jihad in Kashmir, but there should be a difference between jihad and terrorism as was earlier stated by Chief Executive General Pervez Musharraf,`` Interior Minister Moinuddin Haider told the Urdu daily Nawa-i-Waqt (New Era) in Lahore on Sunday.

``We understand that our jihad in Kashmir would have to continue till the Kashmiris find a just solution.

``But creating a phobia in the name of jihad is not a right thing as it unnecessarily draws world attention,`` said Haider, currently under attack from militant outfits for his threats to ban their public fund-collection activities. ...``


Meanwhile here is an improvement on the past:

http://www.the-hindu.com/2001/02/19/stories/01190002.htm

btw, what happened about the police firing in Quetta in which 6 people got shot last week, may I ask? Looks like we are true neighbours after all.

Sadhana

........with a little bit of patience, perseverance, less noise and more action, pakistan can kill two very bad birds with one stone - drive out the despicable indians out of kashmir and dispatch the wild-eyed jihadis into the arms of the buxom houris at the same time ..... the jihadis should be used as the ottomans used the ``bashi-bazouks`` - as gun fodder with a one way ticket across the LOC to be shot deader than a maudoodi if they dare to turn around ...... so we loose a dozen madrassa graduates a day - nothing wrong with that - keeps them off the streets and gives their fathers and brothers the opportunity to get on ptv-4 and declare their readiness to repeat abraham`s folly ...

Harish3 #144

The difference between Pakistan, Kashmir and Israel is simple.

People living in Pakistan were living in this area for centuries. Kashmiris living in Kashmir are living there for centuries. They have a right to decide for themselves.

People forming the current Israel majority were living in Europe for centuries and suddenly decide to dislocate people in Palestine with the help of their killers whom they could not resist.

UMAIRR #19

Dear Umairr:

I am probably no less kashmiri than you are, and you are just as proud about it as I am. I am no less proud of my Kashmiri brahmin heritage than Iqbal either.

You do fail to see the contradiction you are introducing in your powerful argument. This is because you stop at Mukti Bahini. While your argument that people should decide is truly commendable. Why do you stop at Mukti Bahini to make your point. Why don`t you go to the origin of the problem, the partition itself.

Do you believe the Muslim League leader who got Pakistan were saying let the people decide, or they were saying let Muslims decide? I guarantee you the vote would have been very different, your argument was used. Don`t you think, non-Pakistani Muslims would find hypocracy in this argument?

BTW I buy your agument, however, the change that you give non-Pakostani Suth Asians in return I have the problem.

If your argument was the case at the time of partition, then Two Nation Theory blows itself on its face. It was the biggest blunder that Muslim leaders of the time made.

I am ready to accept that Jinnah was forced into taking this position, as Ayesha Jalal has also pointed in her book, Jinnah, the Sole Spokesman.

I am most surprise, that Jinnah a liberal democrat, in my view, accepted his corner. I also believe, he alongwith Nehru understood the value of democratic system and its institutions. But Jinnah certainly became myopic, and failed to see that Hindus had never been as united - Islam would not have entered or entire India would have become Muslim, if Hindus were as united, as Mulsim League made Muslims fear.

Jinnah failed to calculate the elctoral mathematics that the power belongs to the larger group of smaller numbers. Such a grop will get power in democracy. This law of democracy can only be changed by abolishing democracy.

Please do electoral mathematics in today`s South Asia, and soon you will soon discover that Muslims due to sheer number (about 35% of South Asian population) would have gained influence and power in the single bi-cameral constitutional democracy Nehru was proposing for the entire South Asia. Muslims unnecessary got scared of singing Vande Matram (I have no problem singing it, I find it beautiful, I have A. R. Rahman`s CD - he did not find it abhoring; just as I like Sufi Music of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan too). I believe, this is because I grew in pluralisitc society. I grew up in Kanpur, my great-grand father - cotemporary Kashmiri Brahmin to Nehru`s father - was the first Indian civil surgeon in the U.P. My grandfather, died early, but was Nehru`s contemporary and colleague. He was a medical doctor, who studied in Lahore in late 1890`s.

As a result of Muslim League`s actions at the time of partition, unfortunately, Muslims and their votes (non-votes in case of Pakistan, in the absence of democracy) have been forced into at least three divisions - Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. For almost thirty years due to massive migration of Muslim middle class and intelluctuals from India at partition, Indian Muslims were left leaderless. Plus the memories of partition in Hindu mind were too gruesome in the generation previous to mine.

The fault, according to me, and my like-minded Muslim friends, lied in the mis-aligned vision of the Muslim League leadersip, inluding Jinnah, at the time of partition. Although, I do concede that Jinnah was cornered.

(YLH, please do not attack me on Jinnah, I am well read on him, and do subscribe to your thoughts on Jinnah`s leadership qualities. Although in the corner he chose, the leaders were not willing to recognize him any more than their ``Vakil in Delhi``).

These leaders abdicated the responsibility and leadership of the South Asian muslims.

I believe, the Kashmir problem will be solved only when South Asia will emerge as a recognizable economic entity, and military alliance, like NATO. For this to happen: secularism has to take roots, not only in paper laws, but in the hearts of South Asian; and value of democracy, no matter how bad it is, is recognized.

When you meet South Asian friends here, everyone has friendship not hatred at heart for each other. We also vote (some of us atleast) and participate in the democracy. Fortunately, we get to meet in greater proportion of our population, you will also see the difference if these phenomena start happening in in South Asia too.

Regards

ANIL KAPURIA

The Hindu newspaper`s todays editorial on the terrorism of indian forces in occupied kashmir

Loss of political momentum

THE INSENSITIVITY SHOWN by the security forces in handling the protest

demonstrations in the wake of a suspected `custodial death` in Haigam - palpable in the

way the army men opened fire killing in all seven civilians in Haigam and Maisuma - has

seriously vitiated the atmosphere in Jammu and Kashmir in the context of the `peace

initiative`, from the Government of India`s standpoint. This and the widespread public

unrest the incidents have understandably provoked, warranting imposition of curfew,

have apparently prompted the Centre to put off by a few days its decision on the

continuation (or termination) of the twice- extended ceasefire, due to end on February

26. That the military establishment, known for its penchant to stoutly deny any

suggestion of `excesses`, should have admitted that fire, in both cases, was indeed

opened by its men, as distinguished from the police personnel, however represents a

positive attitudinal change vis-a-vis enforcement agencies` accountability. Yet it is

apparent that the groundswell of public protest was what forced the Dr. Farooq

Abdullah regime to institute a judicial probe by a sitting High Court judge into the

Haigam episode; the proposed enquiry should cover not just the `firing` part but the

incident that triggered the protest demonstrations and also establish whether the

victim-shopowner was indeed a militant and whether he was killed while in custody or in

an `operation`, as claimed by the Army.

If the rationale of the ceasefire is rooted in suing for peace in the traumatised State, it

only stands to reason that the security forces should display restraint, discipline and

transparency of a much higher order than in normal situations. Surely, the Haigam and

Maisuma episodes, which arguably involve gross violation of human rights, do little

credit to them in this regard. Though not exactly comparable, these have a qualitative

commonality with the post-Chattisinghpora massacre (by `jehadi` militant groups)

response of the security forces, characterised as it was by a brazen defiance of the rule

of law; some innocent civilians were branded `terrorists`, held responsible for the killings,

gunned down in an `encounter` and buried in a hurry. It is common knowledge that the

repression unleashed by the security personnel in the name of counter-insurgency

operations was an important cause for the perceived alienation of the people from the

administration. It follows therefore that the security forces as also the police, especially

its special operations wing, should mend their ways and adhere strictly to the rule of law,

if the people`s sense of alienation is to be reversed. This is particularly imperative at the

present juncture, when the stated aim of the Government of India is to enlarge the

constituency for peace in the Valley and to expose the foreign-backed pan-Islamic

`jehadi` groups as inveterate saboteurs with no stakes in peace and, above all, to isolate

them from the local people.

The corrective lies, evidently, in the realm of sensitising the security and police personnel

to the basic human rights and the requirements of rule of law. At another level, there is

an unassailable case for the creation of a credible, independent monitoring agency at

least for the duration of the ceasefire, to begin with, and it should not be difficult to

identify and secure the services of persons of high integrity and eminence for such a

mission. The benefits flowing from such an arrangement are manifold. First, the very

existence of the watchdog mechanism will make for greater restraint and discipline in the

functioning of the security forces. Second, and no less important, is that the diabolical

acts perpetrated by the terrorist elements, especially massacres of innocent people,

would, in stark contrast, stand condemned for their outrageous assault on human rights.

While the task of restoring peace is by itself challenging, there has been no movement at

all in the search for a political settlement. The Centre will have to move purposefully on

the political front, engaging all groups including the Hurriyat.