This Visit To Pakistan

YLH, Asif

Ummat and Salaat are Maccan pronunciations whereas Ummah and Salah are Madina pronunciations. Why would it make any difference-call rose by any name.

Godot,

``Let Pakistan define its own Islam, and not Pakistan defined byIslam. Islam is too big to be defined only by the Arabs.``

Yes indeed, and thats why it is a Universal religion for it is ``flexible`` for all times and all lands! The Predominantly Muslim Nation born on 14th August 1947 can do the World a great favor by

creating this new, Modern version of Islam!

Pakistan Zindabad

Pakistani Islam Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

A N,

Yes indeed, saying that we should concentrate more on our language, is parroting of my masters. Indeed, the use of this word ``masters`` is nothing new... Hizb ul Tahrir use this word often ... calling Quaid e Azam M A Jinnah the pawn of the west and western powers his real ``masters``.

I dont like that word... I will instead call Arabs

your ``sires`` who sired you, and the one you love kissing up to and giving BJs.I stand for a sovereign Pakistan! You stand for Pakistanis being slaves of the Arabs! Shame on you.

We love Islam, but we dont like Arab Imperialism.

Pakistan Zindabad!

Next time, if you call anyone my master, I am going to come to UK, and personally shove something up your rear orifice so hard, that you will choke on it..... ``sod`` you and ``sod`` your Piety... now ``sod`` off!

Scout,

The words Ummet etc are from Arabic... but let us use ummet instead of Ummah... it has nothing to do with patriotism, but it sure as hell everything to do with our collective self respect... Are we destined to stand in rukooh forever us Arabs curse us out in Arabic?

Zahra. Hi. Assalamu alaykum-- I think this is the first time i have ever interacted with you directly!

I am afraid i have to disagree with you about Imam Hamza--I love the guy! He is a gift of Allah to this Ummah. I really believe that. As an orator also he is superb. But he is human and if he makes an occasional slip you should overlook it [if he made one!]. But I would be interesting in knowing what it is exactly he said that you found depressing and also what you asked him which caused him to respond in this manner. Personally, I think he is a godsend--we dont have too many traditional [as opposed to wahaabi or neo-wahaabi or modernist] scholars who can speak so eloquently in english and are fully versed in the traditional sciences. (The top scholars of the subcontinent are oceans of islamic knowledge but as most of them dont know english--and as most second generation muslims in the west cannot understand the level of urdu they speak in--their effectiveness is limited in those lands.[though i prefer their urdu speeches to anything else in english, Imam Hamza included!])

It is sad that you find him retrogressive, though you are entitled to your opinion. May I ask what is so retrogressive about him?

Khuda Hafiz

YLH--the words are arabic words and when we speak in english or write in english it is standard practise to transliterate them according to the arabic pronounciation NOT the Urdu one. Yes, if i am speaking in urdu or punjabi i too say ummat and namaz and roza instead of Ummah, salaH, Sawm etc. The Qur`an is an ARABIC Qur`an. It is not cultural hegemony [more parroting of your masters I see] but spiritually rewarding to drown in the love of Allah`s Messenger`s Deen and love everything associated with his blessed person sal allahu alayhi wa sallam--including the Best of Languages i.e. Arabic.

I am glad that you have taken up a cause against that priest of obscurantism .... :) His initials are opposite of mine HY instead of YH... what a coincidence... his views are totally opposite to mine too.

Thankyou

YLH

Re: ylh, #290

Right on, Yasser! Pakistani Islam is Pakistani Islam, not Arab Islam.

We of Pakistani origin don`t have much in common with those petty, ignorant, near-sighted, half-brained Arabs. The Arabs are sacrificing the future of their countries and their masses for the greed of the handful of the ruling elite. The Arab ruling classes have grabbed power and, in their extreme selfishness, making sure that they keep it that way to the detriment of their countries and their people. Their harmful way of doing things should not be copied by anyone, let alone Pakistan.

Let Pakistan define its own Islam, and not Pakistan defined by Islam. Islam is too big to be defined only by the Arabs.

ylh #290, ``My request to all Pakistanis on this board is to use Urdu religious words instead of Arabic....``

What the hell does measly little words have to do with patriotism?

``It is time that we threw the cloak of ``Arab

imperialism`` off of Pakistani Islam.``

By the way, in case you didn`t know, Urdu is a language stemming from various different languages including Persian, Arabic, as well as Sanskrit.

Next thing you know, you`ll be telling Pakistanis not to use the ``urdu`` words derived from Sanskrit because it has an ``Indian`` derivation.

You`re a bright kid but sometimes you say preposterous things (so do I :), so don`t feel alone.

Asif N.

I do not remember the post #, but there were some interesting thoughts in your following post.

``however there is a strange, and beautiful, phenomenon going on now in these countries..many of the educated second gen. youth (i.e. those with degrees or higher) are actually turning BACK to traditional islam under the influence of educated reverts (all thru sufism) like Abd al Hakim Murad in the UK, and Imam Hamza Yusuf and Shaikh Nuh Keller in the US. All these people are law-abiding model citizens who have achieved-or will prob. achieve the ``American dream`` (big house, good job with good salary, car etc. i.e. material wealth) and yet they are returning to Islam in numbers. So, maybe there IS hope yet for our next generation insha Allah...``


I`ll agree with your above observation on ``the beautiful phenomenon part. Regarding Humza Yousaf: he has an extremely depressing outlook with regressive views. [well, then this may be relative…] He constantly emphasizes that Muslims should leave the western world. Interestingly, the session I attended, was very confrontational and controversial. He neither responded to the concerns of his audience nor gave any concrete examples or substantive views. In my own zeal, I also raised my concern and was taken aback on the response I received. Well, then I was told, not to proceed in that direction: disturbing him with my question. And, I didn`t listen. Do I have any regrets? No, but I was seriously disappointed. Personally, I feel he gets carried away with his oratory skills and forgets his whereabouts.

Yasser:

Your request was very amusing. It takes us back to the question I`ve put forth, ``Do all the Pakistanis think alike?``

Yea? or Nay?

My gut feeling is: Nay!Nay!Nay!


PS: So if I say Namaz, I will continue with that. I am not obligated to say Salat for anyone and vice versa. What`s important? The action/message or the words? I think it is the western influence that is trying to overawe few of our naive Pakistani brothers + sisters and they have started replacing everything with a ``hae`` at the end. What else? I think it may be Humza Yousaf`s teachings that have added fuel to the fire. More on that later...

Adnan #274

I learn something new every day!

Every thing I have ever read--not too much, I admit, I do have better things to do--says that Deobandis were influenced by Wahab`s doctrines and Maududi was, of course, originally a Deobandi (which is where he received his initial Islamic education). He thought that he had transcended Deobandi thinking and his Jamaat-e-Islami is ideologically very close to Saudi Wahabism--which is why the Saudis funded him and the party so heavily.

So, friend Adnan, how exactly is Maududism and Wahabism so radically different that I cannot call Maududi at least a neo-Wahabi? I await enlightenment.

ROmair:

Thanks for the clarification and my apologies for the inadvertent harshness towards your points. It wasn`t very clear to me whether you were critiquing the article or were telling the readers what they needed to do. I did not find you addressing the writer anywhere and mistook it for a general note. That`s why you will find me questioning at the end, ``Who`s the audience?`` I guess, I should have asked this question early on.

On another note, I only pointed out the ``strange elements`` in that post, but there were quite a few good points that made sense.

Later,

krashid#279:

again u have the audacity to comment on things u have no idea abt.

this issue of the prophet(SAW) being hazir nazir is a ``ikhtilaafi`` issue amongst the vario8us sect, each has good pts in support of their views.

refer to:

1. Kanz ul Iman by Imam Ahmad Raza Khan

2. Anwaar ul Quran by Malik Ghulam Murtuza

for the two views.

it is based on a verse of the quran that the prophet will be a witness on his ummat on the day of judgement.

we already know the shallowness of ur study, why provide yet another example.

adnan

krashid#280:

bhai the only thing i can glean from ur posting is a lack of study of islamic history and shariah.

the prophet (SAW) on several occasions pardoned abdullah bin ubai as punishing him would have created disorder in the islamic state.

suggested reading:

1. Serat un nabi shibli

2. tarik e islam sayuti

3. tarikh ul khulufa nadwi

while u r at it read something by yousuf al qardawi on islamic penal system(he has many writings on this)

pl. refrain from commenting on subjects which u dont know anthing abt.

adnan

krashid:

dear br. rashid,

aoa

1. bhai sahab aap kay saath jamaatiyon nay kia kiya tha jis ka zakhm abhi tak taazaa hai balkay riss raha hai?? pl. enlighten us

2. khair mazaak aside, whatever it was if it was wrong they will very soon face their maker, being a part of jamiat will not save them.

3. if on the other hand it is a matter of bughz e myawiyyah (RA) then ..........

4. u have so far cited very personalized events in ur criticism of jamiat, this is def. not the way to seriously crticize and try to ammend wht u think is wrong (i beleive this is the only reason one shd criticise)

5. abt br. fuzair pl. take a look at his post, i m sure br. naqsbandi is aware of these things not so sure abt ``bhai fuzair``.

6. u made a very irresponsible statemant reg. jamaat whence u quoted from urdu ki aakhri kitaab

pl. read the manshoor of jamaat

try a little objectivity for a change.

and pl. hatred will simply get u nowhere.

wassalaam

adnan

6.

My request to all Pakistanis on this board is to use Urdu religious words instead of Arabic.... for example Ummet instead of Ummah, dawat instead of dawah, namaz instead of salaat, Maulana instead of Sheikh, etc....It is time that we threw the cloak of ``Arab imperialism`` off of Pakistani Islam.

Pakistan Zindabad!

krashid--if you do not know about a subject then please don`t open our mouth every time and comment on it. I am referring to the mas`ala of Hadhir wa Nadhir [nazir nazir] of Our Beloved Rasool sal allahu alayhi wa sallam. You do not even know what we MEAN by this term and yet you dismiss it straight away in an offensive manner.

Man, you are an ignoramus who thinks so much of himself with your silly comments all over the place about topics you dont know anything about.

Yet you are not man enough to admit ke ``i don`t know`` about a topic...

perhaps it is might fault for talking about subjects to those who are not ready for them. As a great man once said you should speak to people according to their level...