This Visit To Pakistan

``My wish is also that u accept Islam as it has been accepted for the last 1400 yrs``

Someone commented to me: re Taliban`s idol breaking, how did the idols survive 1400 years of Islam? Was it not true Islam which was being followed all those 1400 years? Why try to have it both ways?

Secondly, where are adnan and Naqshbandi listed as interceders in the Holy books? Just the fact that they go around questioning others faith qualifies them ? This is a win-win situation, as long as you raise a question about others (or better still, pass judgement on them), you can corner the the market and escape being judged yourself.

Sadhana

Re: Spout

You should read these words from Humsab carefully.

``They may read Tahir Mirza’s Article in today’s Dawn. Commenting on Taliban and their fervour to break everything that is considered pre-Islamic, Tahir Mirza has observed, “If we won`t have the gumption to speak out, we shouldn`t mind if others do.” Chowksters who support Taleban in this latest pursuit may like to use his advice.``

Why are you supporting the Taliban in this act?

Stop the Genocide in Pakistan.

{{Three shot dead as religious riots erupt in Pakistan

PESHAWAR, Pakistan, March 1 (AFP) -

At least three Shiite Muslims were killed and one critically wounded as gunmen opened fire in a market in the northwestern Pakistani city of Hangu on Thursday, police said.

The incident, a day after the execution of a Sunni extremist for the 1990 murder of an Iranian diplomat, triggered violent demonstrations in the city and exchanges of gunfire between Shiites and Sunnis, they said.

The assailants emerged from a van and sprayed bullets at a crowded market before escaping.

Rampaging crowds of Shiites and Sunnis torched shops and vehicles and exchanged gunfire. At least six shops and several vehicles were set on fire, police said.

``The situation is still tense and the authorities have rushed paramilitary troops to quell the rioting,`` senior home ministry official Manzur Ahmed said.}}

scout,

I have to agree with cherym on this issue. Taliban`s behaviour in destroying historical/religious artefacts is disgusting. It is more disgusting that they are doing it in the name of religion.

What if Egypt turned fundo & started destroying the pyramids & the sphinx? What if Spain turned Christian fundo & destroyed the Alambra or Greeks ,Italians & Mexicans turned fundo & destroyed the artefacts of their preChristan history?

Before the dominance of monothesim in the world, ``pagan`` civilisations flourished in several parts of the world. Whether people believe in their philosophy today or not is immaterial. History is the hertiage left behind for ALL humanity--regardless of their present day religion.

I hear Pakistan takes great care of sikh & hindu shrines. They are preserving the Indus Valley & Harrapan artefacts. Its as much a part of your heritage as ours . Kudos to those Pakistanis who do that.

I think what the taleban is doing is disgusting and a BIG deal--regardless of what religion you belong to.

Hassan

After your visit to pakistan, I do hope that you are back in the US, and probably the best form of help you can give to your country is to lobby for the `forgiveness`. Join your ambassador with the begging bowl, from dawn of today. What has come to that great nation, the product of TNT, the vision of jinnah, turned to ashes in the jihadic flame.

The question of `debt forgiveness`

By A.B.S. Jafri

SOME reports from Washington have recently quoted our ambassador there as seeking ``debt forgiveness.`` What exactly this means is ominously unclear. Does it amount to our ambassador going about in Washington, hands folded, presenting Pakistan as guilty, and pleading for ``forgiveness.``

Or, it may mean that the Pakistan envoy is going around with hands extended, begging for alms. In either case, this should be an intolerable situation for a Pakistani diplomat abroad.

hamidm....okay if you are a Muslim why do you mock islam so much, especially the qur`anic injunctions and the hadith which do not agree with your modern post-modern, western, values? It is farz to believe that every zabar, zer, pesh and damma and every harf of the Qur`an is the uncreated and literal word of Allah. to mock or deny or make fun of even one ayat is absolute kufr. this is not my view or that of the modern scholars but of all muslims since the time of our beloved, immaculate, hazir nazir, infallible, Prophet alayhisalatosalaam. I do not know much about you but it seems evident you haven`t learnt from traditional islamic sources. please read an elementary text on islamic aqeedah...try Imam Ghazzali`s opening book of the Ihya...or Imam Tahawi`s aqidah of ahle sunnah w`al jama`aH. That lists what it is necessary to believe to be a Muslim.

May Allah guide us all to the sirat e mustaqeem.ameen bi jaahi sayyid al alameen.

YLH--all those things can only be achieved if islamic shariat is enforced in practise. Remember, we have to accept what Allah and His Messenger have told us EVEN IF IT MIGHT DISAGREE WITH OUR EGOs.

Allah is Perfect and He created His Messenger perfect too. How dare we then have our own opinions! Astaghfirullah. Remember the Quran says it is not befitting for believers to have their own opinion when Allah and His Messenger have decided on a matter....

Sigalph. I`m afraid you are wrong. To rule by quran and sunnah is necessary according to Allah (in His Qur`an) , His Messenger [sal allahu alayhi wa sallam] and all of the scholars of this great Ummah from the time of the Companions to today whether we like it or not. So you might not agree but it doesn`t make it any less not necessary.

hamidm....okay if you are a Muslim why do you mock islam so much, especially the qur`anic injunctions and the hadith which do not agree with your modern post-modern, western, values? It is farz to believe that every zabar, zer, pesh and damma and every harf of the Qur`an is the uncreated and literal word of Allah. to mock or deny or make fun of even one ayat is absolute kufr. this is not my view or that of the modern scholars but of all muslims since the time of our beloved, immaculate, hazir nazir, infallible, Prophet alayhisalatosalaam. I do not know much about you but it seems evident you haven`t learnt from traditional islamic sources. please read an elementary text on islamic aqeedah...try Imam Ghazzali`s opening book of the Ihya...or Imam Tahawi`s aqidah of ahle sunnah w`al jama`aH. That lists what it is necessary to believe to be a Muslim.

May Allah guide us all to the sirat e mustaqeem.ameen bi jaahi sayyid al alameen.

YLH--

sigalph235

Anybody who disagrees with you is not Islam-bashing unless you have started believing yourself to be Islam.........

1. Agreed. But my friend u were the one who wrote ``that shariah is incnsistant with todays .....``

Shariah is the Islamic Law. You says it is useless now, yet u profess a deep love for religion.

I long ago decided not to get into this typical Islamist trick where they want Islamic absolutism but disown everybody who implements it because....

Would u agree then all those leaders of the muslim countries who discouraged islam were secular. Ill then give u some wonderful examples of ur SECULAR MUSLIM LEADER (maybe lets start with BB at home)

PLease save me the Turkey rap. Turkey is far more pluralistic than Afghanistan and SUdan and any other Islamist regime and moving further towards ....

No Sir, it is not. Any group whose ideals are against the govt. enforced ones is well.. ``outlawed``. Rafah a case in point. This is a recurring phenomenon, need I remind u of Seattle and the WTO summit etc etc etc.

Do you have a couple of hours?

Well just the basic flaws would greatly increase my not too good understanding od Islam.

I taught liberal arts not theology. I must refer you to your favorite mullah......

When u criticize something u must have some sort of a grip on it. Pl. do quote ur sources.

Regards

Adnan

tahmed:

AOA

1. Proof: Well how were they organized, armed and supported financially ISI? IB? etc etc etc etc

The administration knows how well armed these groups are but does nothing abt it.

The MYC had brought the two sides together before the hanging of Haq Nawaz some sort of settlement could have been reached this was communnicated to the government but in their great wisdom they decided to carry out the execution which (I hope I m wrong) will lead to further bloodshed. My point the est. does not want peace.

Ofcourse i cannot give u tape recordings etc. but u seem to be a person who can read b/w the lines.

2. I disagree on ur point that trying to get into power is inherently wrong.

The Prophet initially tried to convince the leaders of Qureish (recall Suarah e Abas and its shaan e nazool),

then he went to various tribes at the time of Hajj not only to preach but he asked them to embrace Islam accept the rule of Allah and in return he promised them Jannah,

after the est. of islamic state in medinah Makkah was taken by force and other expeditions were sent as well

this policy was cont. by the Caliphs until the whole of Arab was under the control of Islamic State.

Btw u r not the first to put forward such arg.

This APOLOGETIC line has quite some history in the sub continent and i disagree with all those (Syed Ahmad, Ameer Ali, etc. then Pervez etc after est. of Pakistan)

3. My point was simply to contradict ur assertion that the Mullahs do not do any social work and simply want power. This is incorrect and I gave u a first hand exp. to prove this pt.

4. My wish is also that u accept Islam as it has been acceted for the last 1400 yrs and I also think u r sincere in ur views though misled being too impressed by wetern ideals (maybe a legacy of the Raj)

I pray to Allah to lead us to the rt path.

wassalaam

adnan

To whomsoever It may Concern

People on the Chowk have protested about Indians raising this issue of Taliban breaking ancient statues/artefacts.

They may read Tahir Mirza’s Article in today’s Dawn. Commenting on Taliban and their fervour to break everything that is considered pre-Islamic, Tahir Mirza has observed, “If we won`t have the gumption to speak out, we shouldn`t mind if others do.” Chowksters who support Taleban in this latest pursuit may like to use his advice.

dear adnan,

(this was not part of my unsent post)

you wrote:

``I will not get into a debate on the distinction b/w political and religious views, but my point was when the society felt threatened by his views they did punish him, no society is tolerant beyond a certain limit. Societies would simply fall apart if this false notion of tolerance were to be enforced.``

Agreed, the distinction between political and religious views can blur sometimes, but what I meant was that Russell was never imprisoned solely for the views he held, no matter how unpopular they would have been with the establishment (though admittedly those views undoubtedly did hurt his career as fellow/lecturer). The point I sought to make was that the state had no grounds to imprison him except in the face of a very real (not merely perceived) threat of invasion. I believe Russell, with hindsight, admitted that his pacficist views were naive.

The merer perception of a threat (often enough nothing more than a betrayal of one`s insecurities) is not reason enough to restrict the `basic rights` of individuals... but `clear and present danger` is!

rgds,

PM

Rshivsena,

(heheh,good one,scout)

#224,

Somehow I just knew you were lurking around, you weasel. Like a worm in an apple, you show your ugly mug when its least needed.

Where the heck were you when I was butting heads with URstruly & Dionysus? Your only use to us Indians is in an Indo-Pak mudslinging match. But no! besharam coward traitor youre nowhere to be found.

I hope to God your parents get you married off to a nice hindu girl who has scout`s personality. Heheh; that would be poetic justice. Imagine a turd like you getting through married life without ever winning a single argument! I hope God is listening.

asif_naqshbandi

....... of course i am a muslim - and a pretty good one too .. but having said that, i don`t necessarily take the burning bushes, flying horses or leaping lazaruses seriously ..... every religion - and islam is no exception - has its silly superstitions, myths, fantasies and lunacies ......for example: there are some crazy southern baptists and muslims who believe that listening to rock and roll will consign you to hell ....now, music is a religion with me and even at the risk of commiting shirk, i do think that frank zappa is a demi-god .... i also believe that jerry garcia might make it to heaven before the adulterous solomon and david or, for that matter, much before the crazy mullah omar - who i consider to be a blasphemer for his jihadic stand against music ...... yusuf islam might never make it to make out with the promised houris, but cat stevens surely will ......

......... as for the supreme being - i doubt very much if he is concerned with the length of our beards or the interest rates on our mortgages - if the unverse is expanding at the rate the physicists say - he has a lot of work to do ....... and next time you are in a church or temple look around you - those folks take their religion seriously too - and for a moment, if you put your prejudice aside, you might feel His presence - He might be dressed up as Ram or only a third of Him might be present, but you can`t miss Her - She is everywhere ..............

Dear Scout:

I think Taleban`s deed came naturally into discussion since they have become a key player in your country, which in course (I won`t say fate of India, I won`t go that far) has become a major problem for India as well. Destroying thousands years old relics, artefacts actually prove Taleban`s insecurity, not of islam. Don`t you think it is a loss of civilization when a student of art or history could learn how people thousands of year ago learnt the art of building such huge monuments without the help of modern techincal advancement? Do you not feel how the life had been in ancient Rome when you go to Coliseum? So why after the ruins when lot of others are actually trying to preserve them?

It is really sad, what Hamid says is so true that they are some people in the world who are hell bent in destroying everything which comes so naturally to people, love, poetry, music, art...

Taleban has become a threat to our part of the world, whether you agree or not. Whether we can discuss them on this board, if that is what you are tring to say, then we are bending that rule all the time in Chowk.

bye now.

Dear Asif Naqshbandi,

No country becomes Islamic or UnIslamic by adding that adjective. I think the best thing to do is to drop ``Islam`` or ``secularism out of the debate of Statehood all together. Yes we are an ``Islamic`` Nation by the virtue of being predomnantly Muslim, but NO STATE has a religion.

The state I want is not subservient to a few -isms call it secularism, Islamism, or fascism. The state I want is and ``inshallah`` will get is....

1) Democratic

2) Impartial-Non Communal

3) Egalitarian

4) the one which Preserves Law and Order

5) Give women and minorities equal rights

Now you have to decide whether your own interpretation of Islam matches up to these ideals or not, because the above mentioned ideals, in my opinion are the ideals of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

Pakistan Zindabad

re asif n`s

``it is necessary for Muslims to rule according to what is in the Qur`an and Sunnah.``

Actually it is not. It is that kind of utter rubbish that has made even ordinary Muslims suspect in the eyes of the world. What is necessary for Muslims is to live their individual lives according to their conscience and leave the rest of the world to follow its own path. God forbid the day that I taken lessons on what is necessary in governance from long dead bigots who enjoyed flogging and abhorred music. These are the people who, in the name of ruling according to the Sharia, are destroying some of the most valued treasures of humanity. To h * * * with a system that encourages rabid bigotry and subtle discriniation on the basis of religion.You guys have tried it in Afghanistan and Iran and Pakistan. I trust the next stop of this freight train of hate will be farther east if the recent rumblings of the nutcases in Dhaka are any indication. Bring `em on! Bengal will be the Waterloo of these merchants of intolerance! You know why? Because Bengalis were practicing Islam long, long before Hazrat Zia, Mullah Omar, and Ayatollah Khomeini discovered it for the rest of humanity.