This Visit To Pakistan

Re: Spout

``Please get your nose out of the Taleban`s stinky behind..``

Sorry, I haven`t done that...I am not Muslim.

RoMair: [Post # whatever]

You seemed to be on something while writing this post. Apparently, very bitter! I have read thsi post a few days back and wanted to come back to it.

[``It is not every Pakistani`s moral duty to stick it out in Pakistan, and try to reform the system from the inside. Migration is allowed in our culture, society and religion(s). In fact, the Islamic calendar starts from a day of migration. Many people (like myself) migrated because they were jobless in Pakistan. Others migrated for similar personal reasons. These reasons are generally economic and have very little to do with religion or religious extremism; otherwise no one would agree to migrate to Saudia Arabia from Pakistan (or from India, for that matter). It is not every (ex)- Pakistani`s moral duty to do something for the homeland either, after having migrated. Good if they do, but not bad if they don`t.]

Thanks for the information. What are you suggesting here? People should get your blessings before they do something for their country Or should they enroll in your database as the ones who`ve done something. Pathetic!

[It is however every expatriate`s duty to refrain from preaching, once they have decided they are not going to attempt to reform the system from within. I hated it when America return Pakistanis did this when I was in Pakistan. And I try my best not to do it, whenever I return, even if it is on a business trip in a consulting role.]

Well, you can certainly have rules and roles defined for yourself, but you should refrain from telling others - By doing that, you are negating your very own sermon. Care to check on consistency?

[Expatriates should discuss the problems of Pakistan, hopefully because they are simultaneously doing something material and practical to solve them. Otherwise they are better off discussing the effects of same sex marriages on the social fabric of New Hampshire and Saskatchewan, and any other areas where they currently live. ]

Again, you are suggesting what they should or they should not do. This whole post sounded pretty damn hypocritical than anything else.

[When expatriates go to Pakistan to give lectures, they need to stick to their areas of expertise, and not try to preach to their audiences on problems the expatriates have themselves not experienced for decades. An IT professional, from North America, going to Pakistan to deliver a lecture, should stick to what he knows and is up to date with, i.e. the IT industry in North America, or IT in general. Similarly a sociologist going to Pakistan should speak on the social issues of North America; since that is the only area he/she has practical knowledge of.]

Again you do not make sense here at all. Who`s your audience? My gut feeling is: it`s your own self!

scout #229
Its seems to have been a waste of breath to explain so I`m not trying anymore.

And whats with this outrage at outrage? How jobless is that? Better show your outrage at outrage in a wider forum because even the UN and the larger world community are protesting and condemning the Taliban`s actions.

Sadhana

adnan: One correction to my previous post: I dont agree with your statement that the establishment is behind the sectarian organizations - this may be a convenient and self-serving story made up by the mullahs, but they can only fool themselves. If you have concrete proof, though, I hope you will share it with the rest of us. Incidentally, a good way to distinguish believers from non-believers is in fact that the former are united while the latter fight among themselves (this too is in the Quran, and I will leave it to you find the Surah). I agree on the part where you condemn such organizations though. I hope one day you will consider my advice more seriously, and study the Quran with a clear and objective mind, without paying attention to what the ulema have to say about it.

adnan #205 Good to hear from you.

``i hope u read my last posting on that other thread.``

No. But I will try to get to it (I am spending too much time on chowk to go to more than one thread on any day).

``1. Incorrect Info: by Mullahs if u mean all those ppl. who wish shariah to be the supreme law of pak. they did do much abt the drought etc.``

By mullahs I mean anyone who wishes to force his way to power in the name of religion, and does not respect democratic legislative processes. I dont want to get into a debate on shariah since we have already debated religios issues and I am convinced that your beliefs in the shariah have blinded you to the Words of Allah in the Quran and led you to conclusions that are the opposite of the plain and simple message that is repeated over and over again in the Quran. The mullahs do that too, but are further removed from Islam than you are since I believe you are simply misled while they are blinded by a lust for power. At this point, I will simply agree to disagree with you, and pray to Allah that he protect Pakistan from the mullahs.

``At the time whn most ``NGOs`` were not even aware of the problem in thar I collected donations for wells, relief etc for ``a mullah org````

Good for you, and as I said previously I believe you are a good man, but badly misled. We will all be judged by our deeds on Judgement Day, while our lips will be sealed and we will have no Hadith writers there to speak on our behalf before Allah.

``2. the sectarian org. were set up and are supported by the establishment (a uniquely secular one at that) and definitely need to be condemmed.

Agreed, and God bless you for this.

``but they do not represent the ulema.``

I have no problem with someone who leads prayers, if that is what you mean by ulema. Or someone who writes about religion without overstepping the bounds that Allah has placed on the Holy Prophet himself.

``3. u seem to lose objectivity in this reply. ur comments?``

I have tried to be as objective as I can in my above response. What can I do when I can see with my own eyes and understand with my own mind that what is written in the Quran is so vastly different from the way muslim societies (and particularly those who use Islam to make a living or gain power or promote violence) have implemented Islam.

Rsaxena #224 Why are you so very, very, insecure?

shankar #216 I am glad you and Pankaj appreciated my mathwork: I was afraid you would would give me an appointment for a counselling session instead :-).

hamidm`s comments can actually be quite funny at times...but i`d like to ask him a serious q in the hope [prob. vain] that do you consider yourself a Muslim? Do you believe in the Qur`an as the Word of Allah?

* * * * * * *

YLH--what exactly would a ``progressive, moderate`` form of Islam be? And how would it be any different from a totally secularised european state (except perhaps by having lip service to ``Qur`an and SunnaH`` in the Constitution? You guys basically want a secular state and NOT Islam so why do you keep on trying to justify your secularism by the oxymoron ``secular Islamic Pakistan``. That is a total non-sequitur! Face it, Islam and secularism are totally at odds and a country cannot be Islamic and secular at the same time. You can have a secular country where the population is largely Muslim [turkey] but that is not an islamic country; it is necessary for Muslims to rule according to what is in the Qur`an and Sunnah.

krashid #221: If the sprawling cancer hospital in Lahore, and the poor children and adults being treated there, isn`t enough to prove to you the philanthrapic efforts of Imran Khan, then nothing I can say will convince you. So I will not attempt to convince you.

The reason the average rich and poor Pakistani contributed money to this hospital was not due to hero-worship, but due to a bond of trust, and a belief in Imran Khan`s cause and efforts. As far as his personal contributions are concerned, I do not have access to the audit reports, so I do not know the exact details. I do know he gave a lot of his own personal money; probably quite a bit more than what you or I donated. He was able to successfully achieve his objective under extremely difficult circumstances, and that is what he should be graded on.

As far as declaring Miandad`s innings at 288; Mark Taylor declared his own innings when he tied Bradman`s record in Peshawar. So declaring to achieve team victory is perhaps not a bad thing. Even if it is a bad thing, I do not consider it an unforgivable offense. I hope there is a lot more to human achievement than scoring 300 runs in a cricket match.

You need to keep in mind that Imran Khan is the author of a No.1 Best Selling autobiography. I do not know of any Pakistan who has written a book about himself that has become not only a best seller, but a no. 1 best seller in England. If so many people bought his book, I am sure one of them would hire him, as well. Considering the fact that Imran Khan himself is a millionaire, and his wife is a billionaire, I am sure their would be no shortage of jobs for him, even outside the cricketing arena.

Even in the cricketing arena, an internationally recognized cricket coach makes quite a bit more than what I make. Geoffery Boycott was just paid around $40,000 for two weeks of work in Pakistan, as a coach.

I did not state that Musharraf is not taking a job in the USA for the love of Pakistan. I only stated that he (and any other retired COAS of Pakistan, or most militaries) could get a good job within the US defence industry, if he wanted one.

You continue to point out the deficiencies of the past and present Pakistani leadership. I agree with most of them, excluding your criticisms of Imran Khan and Musharraf (both of them were (or perhaps still are) politically naive when they started, but I do not doubt their dedication, honesty or sincerity towards Pakistan. Neither has anything to gain personally from what he is doing. That is more than what I can say for 99% of the other Pakistani leadership that is currently available.

You have however, yet to point out any practicle electable alternatives. The only other option is to have Pakistan run on auto-pilot.

dear pm

I will not get into a debate on the distinction b/w political and religious views, but my point was

When the society felt threatened by his views they did punish him, no society is tolerant beyond a certain limit. Societies would simply fall apart if this false notion of tolerance were to be enforced.

Regards

Adnan

rshivsena #223, ``Taleban are your friends and allies. Please treat them with respect.``

In all seriousness, I`ve heard the word ``taleban`` more so from Indian mouths (or in this case fingers) than Pakistanis.

Please get your nose out of the Taleban`s stinky behind and get on with your lives.

rsaxena #223,

you just proved my point.

sheeshhhhhhhhhhh!

sadna #213, ``Its a big deal for all of us if artefacts are destroyed, some of which are supposed to be 2000 years old.``

people are destroying people and we`re getting all

bent out of shape about artifacts.

the British did their share of destruction of Buddhist temples and statues in what is now North Pakistan.

they even have your prized Kohinoor diamond, those thieves, go yell at them...

Another Fiasco!

My sympathies with the current government!
I strongly feel the government needs to ban all these elements and ask them to go for a tayag. If there is an uproar, these people should be given a few social-work assignments and their performance should be assessed based on that.

Al-Akhwan renews threat to storm Islamabad
From NNI

ISLAMABAD, Feb 27 (NNI): Head of Tanzeem Al-Akhwan, Maulana Amir Akram Awan has asked the government to implement Islamic Shariah in the country in line with its promise, or get ready to face the wrath of the people who are poised to storm capital on March 7. In an exclusive interview with an Islamabad-based English monthly magazine The Voice, the Amir said that he had given the March-7 deadline to the government to take a decision in line with his demands for implementation of a true Islamic system. ``If it fails, we would make our next move.``

``The government had assured us of taking necessary steps, in wake of our December 27 last announcement to storm Islamabad and for which my devotees had gathered in front of Darul Irfan. So after the governments assurance we extended our deadline to March 7.`` To a question about the governments response, Maulana Akram said that it was under pressure and have no other choice. ``People are frustrated, politicians are against them, Maulvis are resenting them and there is no peace in the country. So I believe that the only solution is the implementation of Islamic economic system. This will rid them of the American shackles.``

Asked whether his party consisted of retired army officers and soldiers, he said : ``Being a spiritual party, Akhwan welcomes anyone who wishes to attach himself with it. Our members are not limited to the armed forces but belong to every segment of society.`` To another question that whether his party was having an impact in the armed forces, the Akhwan chief said that since Akhwan was a spiritual party, it could be supported by anyone. And its not something objectionable to have support within the armed forces of Pakistan. ``Its not a political party, which seeks power and wealth. So being a spiritual leader and a Sheikh I have devotees everywhere.``

Refuting the allegations that retired military men train his followers in guns and martial arts, the Amir said that this is all mud slinging by the slaves of the imperialists. ``My people are all around the world. I dont have to stay in hotels and motels whenever I go abroad. I stay with my disciples. Yes. I receive their e-mail messages, besides phone calls, faxes and letters. I have got a latest e-mail messaging system, you speak and the computer will type it and send it automatically.``

Asked that why he launched Akhwan, Akram Aiwan said that ``when I realized that my people, specifically the poor were being crushed and plunged into abysmal distress by the so-called rulers, I decided to stop them. Because my Tassawaf is not to sit in a corner and orate, but to do something practically.`` Told that Islam already existed in Pakistan then how can he justify his demand, the Maulana said that its for the name only. ``If there had been a perfect Islamic system no one would have died of poverty and hunger. There would been justice and equality. It could take forty years to decide a case in Pakistan. People are escaping, corruption and irregularities are at the climax. Are these the norms of an Islamic state.``

Asked that his Shariah, like that in Swat, could cause international isolation, the Amir of Al-Akhwan said ``this is not Shariah that one should only concentrate and throw his weight behind one or two things. Shariah is something more than that. It involves consensus of the most learned Ulema of the time, who know deeply about the Quran, Hadith and Fiqah and who also know about the worldly things.`` ``I am fighting for Islam in Pakistan. Because if Islam takes hold in Pakistan, not only the Kashmir problem would be resolved but India itself would become an Islamic state,`` was the Maulanas reply to the question whether he was fighting in Kashmir.

To a query on Jihad the Maulana said ``Jihad is aimed at fighting evil, not humans. The spirit behind this concept is that if a man is doing wrong, he should be stopped, even if it requires elimination. Because Islam says its better to kill one miscreant in order to save hundreds being killed by him. And this is not a war, and west should understand this philosophy.``

Fielding a question, he said `` Islam will rise from this very land of Pakistan. Its in the hands of Allah to assign anyone this sacred task. But God-willing Islam will land in Pakistan in its true spirit and will spread allover the subcontinent. A magnificent Islamic state will emerge with its boundaries beginning from Afghanistan, subcontinent, Iran to Saudi Arabia and onward. And this state will attract the entire human race in the wake of ruthless crushing of the poor in every society and everywhere.``NNI

Yasser:

Your last post on ``Jinnah should have lived longer ...`` forced me to write a few lines.
Personally, I feel, had he lived a little longer, he would have felt miserable, disappointed and very sad.

Even in the movie, he was portrayed as a different person after the partition. As far as his life is concerned, he gave it for the liberation of Pakistan. In order to take care of the fiascos, he needed at least another decade or so.

How many democratic governments in Pakistan have produced such leaders? How many of them have emphasized on the three simple, but poignant words: Unity, Faith and Discipline ?
[PS: This faith is not the faith in any taliban-type or in any drunkard...it meant faith as faith in God as well as in oneself]

Can Pakistan even afford democratic leaders? Personally, I`d rather have a disciplined dictator than a clueless democratic leader. Well, I guess that may be the result of seeing less anarchy in the army rule as compared to the democratic rule in Pakistan. I do not disgaree that armed forces should never intervene in the government, but if there is a lack of discipline and systematic way of doing things then you better have a disciplined leader[dictator or not does not make any difference] and under him have the democratic institutions. Weird, but viable?

Sigalph and Shankar,

I think it was imperative for Pakistan, that Jinnah should have lived beyond how long he did. I have no doubt that Pakistan would be an excelent secular democracy, and the proponent of Progressive Moderate Muslim Culture....

Yasser Hamdani

Re: Asif, Urstruly, Krashid

Everyone knows that hamidm is really a coconut oil drenched, lhoongi wearing, bhaji consuming South Indian. Stop trying to brand him a traitor to Pakistan and Islam.