This Visit To Pakistan

Re: shrink #216

You bet I read that. Dude, get a life....you are soooo pathetic. Basically, your posts are of 2 varieties: 1) Some long piece of crap stating obvious things over and over again, or 2) Trying hard to kiss someone`s behind to win support on CHowk for your insecure little mind.

Re: scout

``Why are Indians interacting on Chowk so disgustingly obsessed with the Taleban?``

Taleban are your friends and allies. Please treat them with respect.

Shankar #198

I think our frame of reference is different.

I don`t care anymore what a Government is doing and justifying that. Particularly if a Government is taking decision against popular will of the people.

I have read few books on Kashmir both by Indian and Pakistani writers. Considering the overall history of Kashmir starting with Sheikh Abdullah`s independent Kashmir movement, I think it is the right of Kashmiri people to decide their own future. Whether they want to go to hell, they have their right to do so.

Second. My reading of history tells me that during this century different movements have utilized different symbols for the aim of National assertion. May it be Communism of Russia or China or independent movements in Africa and Asia in the name of Nationalism or Socialism or current movement of Islam in Iran, Kashmir or Afghanistan or Chechneya. Another thing is obvious in history that only pragmatism after achieving the National identity can bear fruit. Compare Russia with China or Iran after revolution and current Iran.

The real curse on a nation is dogmatism after achieving independence to the detriment of progress and prosperity of people and nation.

ROmair #207

I see your logic.

I don`t know how you can put Imran Khan in the category of people for whose world is waiting.

You mentioned his education first. I am not aware of anything significant or non significant regarding his education. I agree with you that he can coach. But, I think you and me make more than a coach these days. You also skipped the part of philanthropy. How much he contributed out of his whatever he earned towards SKMH. Which money he is utilizing to travel abroad frequently. Is it people`s money or his own. He was able to achieve SKMH because of hero worship of Pakistanis. Didn`t they said that an Industrialist prime minister like Nawaz Sharif will change the fate of nation. Off course he did his own. So on that ground the real hero are the people who donated. Although Imran might have some contribution. My belief regarding Nawaz Sharif was proven right. A person as jealous, cunning and superfluos as Imran Khan in no way can be some sort of philanthropist. (And please reasses your definition again). The example of declaring Javed Miandad on 288 score when he was captain is example of utter Kamingi. Javed later told that if there was a hint of declaring him near his triple century, he would have played more fast. As I have given example of slapping a poor man for going near him when he was about to leave on his helicopter. I don`t think people like these are near to human moreso philanthropist.

And your joke of Brigadier and Colonel getting good job in foreign countries and telling us that Pervez Musharraf can also do that except for his love for Pakistan. I don`t know should I laugh on that or what.

And tell me a time period after the death of Liaquat Ali Khan when Beareaucracy cum military has not ruled in Pakistan. Don`t tell me another joke about democratic Governemnt of Benazir and Nawaz Sharif. Both of them did their half term. And height is that when Supreme court reinstated the first government of Nawaz Sharif, then Army chief Kakar forced Nawaz Shjarif to resign.

I agree with your thinking that 2nd best thing Pakistan produced was Ayub Khan leading not only to accumulation of wealth in the hands of selected few but also leading the break-up of Pakistan. And I am pretty sure best thing which is happening to current Pakistan is Pervez Musharraf. After this people living in current areas of Pakistan will have their own elected Government minus Army and its constituency. As it happened in former East Pakistan during the 2nd best`s regime.

re shankar #215

You said about the Quaid-e-Azam

``I think if he had lived for even 10 years, Pakistan would have been an excellent democracy. ``

Perish the thought! Had Mr Jinnah lived any longer, his countrymen would have made a villain of him and destroyed his good name, reputation, and standing. My late grandfather, an old Muslim League hand, swore that God`s greatest gift to Mr Jinnah was his demise in the early months of Pakistan or else...`yeh badmash unki izzat ki dhajji dhajji kar de te`. That every Pakistani govt office is adorned with his picture and he is quoted by every petty politician is a testament to the fact that the Quaid managed to depart the world with his reputation intact in the nick of time. A man of his stature may not have been able to stomach the pettiness of the men who followed him anyway.

re cheraym #190

Thank you for your very kind words. I try.

re adnan

``Again the Islam Bashing has forced me comment on ur not too bright observation.``

A. Anybody who disagrees with you is not Islam-bashing unless you have started believing yourself to be Islam in which case you are guilty of semi-shirk. You argue well often but don`t be carried away to the point where you consider yourself Mr Islam. Allah Himself has asked believer to walk softly on His earth.

1. ur first false premise is that shariah is wht zia wanted to enforce. check ur facts.

A. I long ago decided not to get into this typical Islamist trick where they want Islamic absolutism but disown everybody who implements it because the Islamists are afraid of a bad record. This is quite a normal ploy of politicians everywhere-running away from their cohorts` record and yet hoping to acheive the same ends. Pal, I cut my teeth in the nitty gritty of Congressional and, later, Presidential, campaigns. WHo are you trying to fool?

2. ``next incorrect aasumption: the hr record of the west has improved. No my friend despotic regimes in the middle east and africa are still being supported by the west.``

A. In fact the most recent Freedom House survey (1999) shows more nations than anytime in history embracing pluralism, freedom, and democracy including traditional erstwhile Pro-western dictatorships like the Philipines, Argentina, Peru, Panama, and tentatively Jordan and perhaps Bahrain. We have a long way to go but the Freedom Revolution has begun and Afghanistan will be free someday too.

``(may i mention algeria in particular where the FIS has not only been deprived of its right to rule but also has been persecuted savagely; turkey another case in point and so on)``

A. PLease save me the Turkey rap. Turkey is far more pluralistic than Afghanistan and SUdan and any other Islamist regime and moving further towards freedom everyday. The situation in ALgeria, while tragic, was understandable. As scholars Robert Dahl and Robert Putnam have pointed out `one man one vote` does not mean `one man, one vote, one time`. The FIS was stopped so that it couldn`t do what the Communists did at the ballot box in E EUrope in the late forties. Democracy cannot be used to destroy it.

3. pl. point out wht in ur learned opinion are the major flaws in islamic shariah (quote sources whn u write)

A. Do you have a couple of hours?

4. finally i m rather interested in learning more of islamic shariah from an erudote scholar like urself, pl. give me a reading list so i may wake up from my slumber of ignorance.

A. I taught liberal arts not theology. I must refer you to your favorite mullah. My interest in this debate is solely to enshrine the ideas of human liberty and pluralism. A man`s religion and faith is his personal business not the public`s and vice versa.

PS hamidm #214
Hm. Seem to remember something about images of an admired national leader in every ..? Did the blood militate then? :).

hamidm #214

Though maybe they will try blood tranfusion first :). Hey, I`ll bet A&E has the documentary archived in which they even interviewed some (now migrated) Afghan Jews on the subject. One prominent young Taliban leader even spoke of what his grandfather told him in that connection.

scout #213
Not everyone shares the `holes` that exist in some young Pakistanis` sense of subcontinental history. Its a big deal for all of us if artefacts are destroyed, some of which are supposed to be 2000 years old.

http://www.timesofindia.com/today/28home2.htm
Taliban decree may punch gaps in Indian history

``... For India, the region is of great significance as it till date houses some of the finest specimens of Indian civilisation and culture, says R Sengupta, ex-director of conservation, Archaeological Survey of India (ASI).

Sengupta headed the Indian Archaeological Mission to Afghanistan in the late `60s. ``Time and again India has helped its historical neighbour with expertise in restoration of the latter`s heritage in pre-Taliban days and had earned wide appreciation too,`` says Sengupta who spent nine years (from 1969-77) in Afghanistan as part of the Indo-Afghan restoration project. There are several sites, he says, ``which are of special interest to India. Notable among them: Bamiyan, Ningrahar (modern name Hadda), Jalalabad and Kapisa (modern name (Begram).``

Bamiyan, situated 250 km north-west from Kabul, nestled between the mountain ranges of the Hindukush and Koh-i-Baba at 2,850 metres, was on the famous ``Silk Route`` that connected Western Asia with the sub-continent. ``Being a convenient halting place for trading caravans, and monastic establishments and Buddhist images spread all around, it soon turned out to be a major Buddhist centre of meditation and worship and continued to be so until Chengis Khan`s invasion in 13th century,`` says Sengupta.

Jalalabad, bordering Pakistan and now a strategic battlefield of the Taliban and the opposition Northern Alliance, was once a famous Buddhist pilgrimage site. Similarly, Hadda (ancient name Ningrahar) was famous for its stupas, viharas and Buddhist sacred objects. The place is mentioned in the vivid accounts of Chinese traveller Hiuen-Tsang. Another important site was Begram (ancient name Kapisa). Once the summer capital of Kushanas, thousands of objects of ivory and coins belonging to the Kushana period have been unearthed from the site....``

Sadhana

Tahmed,

You got me reeeaaal good yaar:) Man, your good! Poor Godot took you seriously & beat me to it!

I read that post a dozen times & then started rubbing my forehead & thinking:

``Damn, these frikking Pakistanis talk at a level of math that is incredibly complex! Pakistanis are frikking geniouses! India is SCREWED!! ha ha``

Thankyou Pankaj, for pointing out that it was a joke. You made my day:) You guys are right, doctors like me are only good for ``ghadda majoori``---anything outside my field, I`m a total ignoramous. Er, I hope those ``C``s harimau, ali & RSaxena arent reading this:)

Godot, dont feel so bad ,yaar. Actually, its tahmed`s fault/treachery. He`s always so serious when he posts. Then, all of a sudden, from nowhere, he comes up with this outrageously hysterical post! They cant blame us for being bakras.

Tahmed, my hats off to you. One of these days I`m going to try to get you good too. But I think I have a very difficult task. I think you are too smart to miss a trap:)

ROmair

post #207.

That was a beautifully written post. I love the way you present your case and the inherent logic in your arguments. I know its none of my business cos I`m an Indian American. I didnt trust Mushy because I wasnt being objective (I was seeing him purely as an untrustworthy Kargil backstabbing villan).

However, your posts make me think twice & look at him from Pakistan`s angle. I beginning to agree with you wholeheartedly. From Pakistan`s standpoint he`s the best thing that could have happened to Pakistan. Comparing the moral values of Pakistan`s ex-leaders, he seems to be the best you`ve had--other than Jinnah & Ayub.

I left Jinnah out because before coming to Chowk I had a very skewed impression of Jinnah. Thanks to ylh & many others ,I`m a firm believer that he would have been a great ``father of a nation`` for any nation that become independant of the British, in those days. He took the best British values & combined them with the best desi values. Pakistan`s greatest tragedy was that he died before he could set down solid foundations. I think if he had lived for even 10 years, Pakistan would have been an excellent democracy. Today, her only major problem would be hoards of Indian muslims banging on her doors wanting to come in:)

I was too young to be interested in politics during the Ayub era.

Your narration of Imran Khan impressed me. Gee, you could be a damn good PR man (I`m not saying it facetiously). I know Imran had a benefit match in India to raise money for that hospital. Kudos to him!

KRashid,

Yaar, sometimes you get so enthusiastic about your cynicism, you get carried away:)

sadna

``btw, what will the Taliban do if they are confronted with evidence supporting the theory that Pastun tribes are actually the Lost Tribes of Israel?? Commit mass suicide ?``

........... i think it is a good idea .... let`s spread the rumor - how about sending an e-mail to the frontier times ... sorry, i forgot - the uncouth but pious bearded ones burned down their offices and i don`t think they have fax machines and e-mail and electricity and other symbols of the decadent west in kabul ..... maybe we can send adnan and naqshbandi with the message and a few pounds of tabacca from tenessee ......

.......... i knew it would come to this - me, an indirect descendent of the great but-shikan mahmud ghazni and a direct (you betcha!)descendent of ahmed shah abdali, agreeing with an infidel and idol-worshipper from dar-ul-harb to conspire against a brother in islam and a half-brother in afghan blood - that kind of explains my frequent bouts of insanity when only the purest peshawari niswar or that potent pati from chitral or the finest powder from dara adam khel will pacify me as i go on a rampage against heretic liberals, god-less communists, shameless pant-wearers, beardless munafiqs, red-dotted hindoos, kafir music lovers, besharam soccer players, behaya gymnasts, horrid movie stars and generally anyone who believes in being human or happy .............

......as for breaking idols, don`t take it personal - it is a sunnah and every muslim can gain the sawab of a hundred naffals by breaking an idol under six inches and five hundered thousand naffals for beheading the already amputated venus di milo ........even my little daughter has beheaded and amputated a few barbies.......

Why are Indians interacting on Chowk so disgustingly obsessed with the Taleban?

Looks as though they have nothing better to do than to go web-surfing for Taleban related articles and cutting`n`pasting them on Chowk.

And another funny thing is that, these same Indians (they know who they are) don`t bother to interact on the creative, non-political articles on Chowk.

Get a life please folks.

Taliban are proving themselves to be the biggest menace in the universe. After establishing a comfortable life style with the help of wonderful export of marijuana/cocaine, killing infidels ( aren`t the shias infidels too ?) and reducing women to door-mat status their hands are itching to do more.

re. Adnan672 # 208

``. Whn that society was threatened not only was Russell beaten with a nail studded borad by a mob he was sent to prison and dismissed from Trinity college.``

Russell was imprisoned for his polictical (pacifist) views; never his (ir)religious ones.

rgds,

PM

re. Godot #175:

``Yasser, I remember you once wrote to me that, after your studies here in the US, you`ll go back to Pakistan. I hope you do. To me, you, and young people like you, are Pakistan`s hope. Pakistan needs people like you. I know you can, and will, make a difference. ``

Godot, SIR! :),

I`d (honestly) like to know why young people like YOU (asumming you`re still in you`re 30s-- an age many cultures still considered pre-adulthood) and Me are any less ``Pakistan`s hope``.

The questionof course, is completely rhetorical.

Regards,

PM

Godot #197 I am sorry about my previous post. The math was done in a lighthearted manner and I wish you had taken it in the same spirit. In any case, I should not have belittled you, and I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.