This Visit To Pakistan

hamidm

1. Hazrat Russell was able to say that cos he was living in a society that was very stable and not threatened by all his nonsense.

2. Whn that society was threatened not only was Russell beaten with a nail studded borad by a mob he was sent to prison and dismissed from Trinity college.

3. Finally enlighten me by referring to me some books on Shariah which u no doubt studied before condemning it.

adnan

naqshbandi

...... and another reason i can`t stand the thought of shariah being implemented in

pakistan is because of what hazrat bertrand russel (RA) said more than fifty years

ago .......... he was able to say what he did and get away with his life and limb intact

because he lived in that terrible place of your birth that you seem to despise so

much ........ he said,

krashid #185: ``If you don`t forget your past post yet, you will remember you were trying to prove that Imran Khan and Pervez Musharraf (alongwith Dr Ata and Dr. Hoodbhoy) have a bright future waiting for them in foreign countries, but they are staying back in Pakistan because of the love of their country.``

It is good to see that you are softening your stance, somewhat. Dr. Ata and Hoodbhoy (anyone with a technical Ph.D.) has quite a bright future for anywhere in today`s world. The one`s who stay behind in Pakistan to do constructive work, do so for the love of country. That is the point I was trying to make.

Imran Khan could easily be employed in a lot of different countries, if for nothing else, his cricketing knowledge alone. Not to mention his educational qualifications, and his contacts (his wife probably has contacts of her own, as well). You are underestimating his efforts in building the cancer hospital. It would never have come even close to being built had he not been heavily involved in it. And he spent a lot of his own money on it, as well. Not to mention the fact that time is money, also. It is not a coincidence that no one else, including the govt., has been able to build a cancer hospital. I am obviously a bit biased towards him because I feel he is genuine, and because I have supported his party`s candidates in elections.

There are personal quirks in everyone`s personality. Jinnah being a Muslim, used to drink. He fell in love with a 16 year old girl(married her when she turned 18) when he was around 40 years old. He did not associate with his own daughter after she got married. However, one should highlight the Pakistani philanthrapists (and honest leaders), not attempt to undermine their efforts.

I put Musharraf into the category of people who are genuinely trying to reform the Pakistani system. I will reach a definite conclusion in around two years. The two criteria being whether he hands the govt. back to civilians (thus setting an unprecendented example in Pakistani, and international, politics), and whether his own family benefits personally from him being the head of the govt. The last thing Pakistan needs are a couple more Ejaz ul Haqs, Humayun Akhtars, Benazirs, and Gohar Ayubs.

As far as jobs waiting for him outside Pakistan. The COAS of Pakistan can get quite a few good job offers from the various companies in the international defence arena. I know a few Pakistani Brigadiers, Maj. Gens., and Lt. Gens. who have been offered high paying jobs as consultants in these companies. The moment these companies see someone who has knowledge of and contacts in the defence purchasing agencies in Pakistan, they go out of their way to offer them jobs. Some, like Gen. Karamat, even end up being members of influential US think tanks. If I can get a pretty good job in the US as a retired Captain, I am quite sure a retired General could get even a better one.

``Although I agree with your statement that 500,000 guns can be fired on his one command. Who knows it better than Pakistanis who have passed most of their lives under this 500,000 guns.``

This is partially correct. It is true that civilians Pakistanis have had to suffer under Army rule historically. But, in my opinion, they have suffered under every type of rule. For the simple reason, that Pakistani politics is dictated by the one person who is at the top of the govt. So the type of Army rule is really dependent on the type of COAS. All civilian and military leaders have been dictators. If Pakistan is going to be run by dictators, then might as well support the most honest and sincere one; which amongst the current available lot seems to be Musharraf.

aoa

TO THE MUSLIMS ON THIS FORUM

I may not agree entirely with the taliban policy of destroying the statues ``idols`` but they do have some rationale behind this

``jaa la haqqo wa zahaq al batil...........``

this is wht the prophet (SAW) was reciting as he entered makkah and destroyed all the idols there

then he sent emissaries all over Arab to destroy any idols.

The only point is whether these are ``artifacts`` ``idols`` or ``statues`` or.......

a matter of interpretation i think, dont u ?

adnan

tahmed:

aoa

i hope u read my last posting on that other thread.

1. Incorrect Info: by Mullahs if u mean all those ppl. who wish shariah to be the supreme law of pak. they did do much abt the drought etc.

At the time whn most ``NGOs`` were not even aware of the problem in thar I collected donations for wells, relief etc for ``a mullah org``

2. the sectarian org. were set up and are supported by the establishment (a uniquely secular one at that) and definitely need to be condemmed.

but they do not represent the ulema.

3. u seem to lose objectivity in this reply. ur comments?

wassalaam

adnan

macgupta #202

How about the tomb/temple of Ramses and the Assad Dam? India should do something more than protest.

http://www.expressindia.com/news/daily/20010227/02705901.htm
`` India condemns Taliban decree
NEW DELHI: India today condemned the Taliban militia`s decree ordering the destruction of all statues in Afghanistan including the Bamiyan Buddhas and other relics, terming it as an assault on the common heritage of humankind.

In a strongly-worded statement here, the External Affairs Ministry said the decree, reportedly issued by Mullah Omar, leader of the Taliban militia, once again profiles the militia`s ``Narrow and obscurantist ideologies``.

It said, ``We condemn this edict and call upon the Taliban to ensure that the Bamiyan Buddhas and other relics are fully protected.``

The statement recalled earlier decrees such as one in 1998 which required that Afghan nationals who profess the Hindu faith wear a distinctive piece of clothing or put a distinctive mark on their bodies so that they could be easily distinguished.

``The Taliban edict constitutes an assault not only on Afghan tradition but on the common heritage of humankind,`` it said.

It noted that Afghanistan has through history stood at the crossroads of civilisations and it bears their imprint in greater measure.

The relics of these civilisations including the Bamiyan Buddhas stood witness to the pride of the Afghan people in their tradition. PTI ``


btw, what will the Taliban do if they are confronted with evidence supporting the theory that Pastun tribes are actually the Lost Tribes of Israel?? Commit mass suicide ?

Sadhana

Zahra #157 Thanks for posting the link to the Economist`s site on e-business. It is interesting that while Pakistan does not have a regulatory framework to promote e-business (like legal recognition of e-signatures) the government does try to ``control`` internet access by denying ISPs direct access to international gateways. On the other hand, compared to other countries with similar per capita income, Pakistan seems to have slightly better access to the internet. And the government hasnt yet figured out how to tax e-business (as is the case in all countries today, and which is probably a good thing too). Also interesting, both Pakistan and India are close to the bottom of the heap (55 and 50 respectively out of 60 countries selected) - this reflects the fact geographically e-business is limited to a few areas only. But much work is being done - the growth of IT training institutes that are private inititatives, as well as the government sponsored contract with Nortel Networks to strenghten wireless networks in Pakistan. I think our big hero in all this is Dr. Atta (the IT minister) with credit (lets give the devil his due) also to Shahbaz Sharif, and most of all to the young Pakistanis who are plugging away at the opportunities now opening up.

sigalph235

re asif n`s

AOA

Again the Islam Bashing has forced me comment on ur not too bright observation.

1. ur first false premise is that shariah is wht zia wanted to enforce. check ur facts.

2. next incorrect aasumption: the hr record of the west has improved. No my friend despotic regimes in the middle east and africa are still being supported by the west.

(may i mention algeria in particular where the FIS has not only been deprived of its right to rule but also has been persecuted savagely; turkey another case in point and so on)

3. pl. point out wht in ur learned opinion are the major flaws in islamic shariah (quote sources whn u write)

4. finally i m rather interested in learning more of islamic shariah from an erudote scholar like urself, pl. give me a reading list so i may wake up from my slumber of ignorance.

adnan

``why cannot Pakistan enforce shar`iat inside its own borders and yet be a full

member of the international community?``

I will take the question head on. The reason, to which you may be oblivious, is that

the world has changed significantly since the time of the late Mard-e-Momin

Allama Ziaul Haq. In the darkes days of the Cold War the West was ready to

overlook the transgressions of its dictatorial allies. With the coming down of the

Berlin Wall, there has been a constant re-assertion, intellectually and morally, in the

civilized world of the fundamental inviolability of God given rights.This ethic is

gaining ground by the day on both sides of the Atlantic. Soon there will come a day

when a country, notwithstanding its claims of sovereignty, will not be able to have

any intercourse with the civilized world unless this country follows certain principles

of fundamental fairness. This evolving consensus will require all those who wish to

join in at the table of human civilization to adhere to the basic ideas of

representative democracy, pluralism, civil liberties a la the Univ Declaration of HR,

sharia cannot be a Pakistan fully accepted in the international community.

Oh, please save the lecture about Islamic human rights- I know the drill about how

it is superior and gives more rights and the rest of the nonsense. Feel free to join in

if you have something different to add.

The Buddha statues in Bamiyan are probably too large to be airlifted. The United Nations and even members of the Pakistan society for preservation of Afghan heritage are protesting this edict. In fact, the Taliban had promised the UN an edict protecting the cultural artifacts, but I suppose breaking promises to unbelievers and apostates is justified.

You may be wondering why this latest Taliban action provoked more response from me than their stupid restrictions on women, massacres of Shias and so on.

The point is that until yesterday it was possible to believe that the Taliban were in a phase of radicalism that would moderate itself as things stabilized. No longer.

Pakistanis, there are many things that you have, such as music and performing arts, non-religious literature, participation of women in economic, political and social life, different languages, historical monuments etc., that while not anti-Islamic according to common-sense, nevertheless do not spring from the Pristine Islam that the Taliban seek to establish. They arise instead from the particularity of Pakistan, i.e., inherited from your ancestors, adapted from your neighbors, etc.

You have been given notice that all these are in jeopardy.

Just as Pol Pot sought to erase all the Cambodian heritage so that he could create a new society starting with a fresh slate, likewise, the Taliban seek to eradicate everything that they cannot trace back to an origin in seventh century Arabia.

If you value the facets of Pakistani culture that I mentioned, then sooner or later you will have to crush the Taliban or face the sword yourself.

-Arun the Infidelator

#180 Macgupta

Here`s more from the BBC site:

``In an interview with the BBC`s Pashto Service,

a Taleban spokesman, Mullah Abdul Hai

Motmain, said the statues were being

worshipped.

He said it had been the policy of prophets and

Islamic holy men from time immemorial to

destroy all false gods..

``Mullah Motmain said the people worshipping

the statues were enemies of the Taleban. He

refused to accept that Islam called for respect

for other faiths.

Islam, he said, had defeated and cancelled out

all other religions. ``

More than anything else, this shows the Taliban for

what they are: an intolerant band of primitives, whose

gain self worth only when they stand atop others.

But please, don`t let these primitives or the others

(such as Urstruly) writing on this forum blunt

your humanity. That would be the ultimate caving

in, the ultimate defeat.

In the larger scheme of things those of us here

amount to little. But we influence our circle of

friends, family and children. Let us not be

infected with the virulence and hatred of these

primitives. Let it be said that the primitives lost.

This is from todays Independent , a British newspaper :

``But the Taliban`s ambassador to Pakistan, Abdul Salam Zaeef, on Tuesday said ``we don`t care why they weren`t destroyed in the past, but we have a government now in Afghanistan that is religious and we want to stop all things that are against Islam.``

As well as the two giant Buddhas, Afghanistan`s national museum – which has been damaged by rockets – has hundreds of small statues of Buddha. They would also be destroyed under the order, Zaeef said.

However, he said officials would not enter the temples of minority religions, including Hindus or Sikhs, to carry out the order.

``We respect Hindus and Sikhs and they will not be stopped from performing their rituals,`` Zaeef said.``

(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Asia_China/2001-02/APbuddha270201.shtml)

regards

Harpreet

KRashid,

{{Since we Pakistanis in majority are prone to look at our Governement and its action with cynicism, we expect the same from Indians.}}

I`m not sure why you have the impression that Indians have a holier than thou attitude . It seems to me that some Pakistanis get incensed when Indians criticise Pakistan, but forget that Indians have also been forthcoming about criticising their own country.

In the same vein, I was taken aback when Dionysus thought I was calling India a ``f_ing paradise``! I think he conveniently forgot that in my previous para I said that India shares the same gutter as Pakistan (Ok if some of you take offense to even that statement--we are both in different gutters; but both gutters stink just as much). I`ve always maintained that BOTH India & Pakistan are villans in Kashmir. However, no matter how many times I say that; jerks like URstruly & Dionysus think I`m trashing only Pakistan.

What pisses me off about URstruly is that in his zealous propaganda on Kashmir, he actually believes that Pakistan is the noble knight in shining armor, with nothing but the most honorable intentions with how they conduct their jehad. It seems that when a label of ``jehad`` is given to anything, it becomes a sacred cause & all killings are absolutely justified.

Thats why I pointed out why other muslim countries dont give a frick about URstruly`s brand of anti-Indian propaganda (which I`m sure Pakistani diplomats are drilling into the ears of Islamic countries). That DOES NOT automatically mean they believe Indians. When we keep our propaganda on the shelf, we will realise the BLUNT TRUTH:-The other muslim countries (& the rest of the world) is saying, ``we dont give a S *IT what you 2 countries are saying; BOTH you guys are f *cked up & deserve the mess you have created; so take your propaganda {from either side} & shove it where the sun dont shine; & keep us out of it``!!

Pakistan constantly complains & cant understand why the rest of the world is SO insensitive about their constant appeals to mediate on Kashmir. The world is saying ``sure; we`ll mediate; but both sides should be willing to compromise``. Pakistanis say they are willing to compromise, but India is this stubborn, shameless country that doesnt want mediation because the world will get a clearer picture of Indian brutality & side with Pakistan. That is the ONE point every Pakistani absolutely believes & agrees upon.

Think about this. Many decades have passed since the UN resolutions. Whether you guys blame India for foot dragging & reneging on promises is true or not is a MOOT issue. Indians & Pakistanis will NEVER agree on this; till HELL FREEZES OVER! Yes, Indians dont CARE what you Pakistanis say about us. Call us treacherous, untrustworthy, ``bagal mein churi`` or call us ``satan reincarnate`` as much as your heart desires. Indian response is ``the feeling is mutual``. Do you think India gives a s *it what Pakistan thinks of us? India is perfectly happy if we never talk to each other for the rest of eternity.

I hate to admit this; my best friend RSaxena is right! India feels its high time we create another ``Berlin wall`` on our borders & have nothing to do with Pakistan. GoI`s attitude & behaviour these days says ``f *ck you, we dont want to talk to you as long as you carry on this jehad/terrorism. We are perfectly content in viewing Kashmir as an internal issue & we`ll handle it ourselves. If you assholes in Pakistan think you can bleed India--you got another thing coming--because you will die long before you bleed us to death!`` Believe me, the world (including the Islamic world) will not twist India`s arm. In this game of ``chicken`` Pakistan will eventually lose, IMO.

Personally, I feel this attitude of the GoI is WRONG, very WRONG--even if I think India will eventually prevail. What the HELL will it get India to see Pakistan going down the tubes? Not only will not India progress because of this stubbornness; but also I feel Pakistanis are just as human as us. I feel no joy that our neighbors are suffering right now; maybe more than Indians are suffering. It is stupidity to cut our nose to spite our face. Both India & Pakistan have serious social problems that Kashmir is detracting us.

Re: tahmed321, #186

I agree. I`m not a thirteen year old. You, on the other hand, have a mentality of a thirteen year old, and writing skills of a five year old!

{{Top Hizbul militant surrenders in Kashmir

BARAMULLA, India, Feb 27 (AFP) -

A top Muslim militant, carrying a reward of 200,000 rupees (4,300 dollars) on his head, surrendered Monday to Border Security Force (BSF) personnel in India`s restive state of Kashmir.

Jahangir Khan, a district commander with the dominant Hizbul Mujahideen militant outfit, gave himself up in Baramulla, 55 kilometers (35 miles) north of the Kashmir summer capital Srinagar.

Khan was the first senior militant to surrender since the Indian government suspended counter-insurgency operations in Kashmir on November 28. The ceasefire has since been extended three times and will next come under review at the end of May.

Khan said he had kept a low profile after getting trained in Pakistan-administered Kashmir, and had hired a watch-repairing shop in Patan township, 30 kilometers (20 miles) north of Srinagar.

He used the shop as a cover to coordinate the militants under his command.

``I became active in early 2000 and carried out a number of operations against the security forces,`` he said, adding the government ceasefire had encouraged him to surrender.}}

GORAY JOURNALIST, GOREE JOURNALISTS AND LIBERALS

http://www.jang-group.com/jang/index.html

Arshad Ahmad Haqqaani on Editorial 2/27/01

NEW WORLD ORDER AND GLOBAL VILLAGE
(The current version)

http://www.jang-group.com/jang/index.html

Munno Bhai on Editorial Page 2/27/01

And we are asked to shut up.

macgupta #180
Bhai, if medieval purges are to be countered with medieval mindsets even in modern times, what is the use of all this progress?

A better response from Indians in this world of modern dynamism, empowerment and newly awakened pride in heritage would be

a. to get the Dalai Lama to issue public statements and make a big issue out of it(which is is) and pull weight with the Taliban leadership

b. Arrange to airlift the remaining statues out of Afghanistan. Perhaps Pakistan and India can cooperate on this, I thought I heard Gen. Musharraf expressing pride in Pakistan`s Buddhist heritage.

We should not depend solely on (the admittedly active and alert) diplomats from the UN to take care of something which is so important to us and the world community.

Sadhana