This Visit To Pakistan

Mr. Gardezi,

A really nice and intriguing article from you. I just came from the US after a period of 6years and I took a class that I dreaded to take and yea, it was none other than Sociology. But it did a trick on me and that was to get me to think freely and differently.

Anyhow, I am experiecing a lot of things that you experienced in Pakistan after a while but no matter what, the soil of the homeland has no substitute.
Umer

Reply #: 412 gymnosophist

Ref ylh #: 382

[Now either you are extremely stupid, or you are from Rutgers...]

Er... would you care to re-phrase that?

________________

He may not but I will, old friend, nangay sophist!

He is from Rutgers. We all know that. So, your humour sounds buggered up now. As to the other, one doesn`t have to be one to be recognized as one by the real one! Got it? Say it. Or, has Orrisa and Bengal eaten up your tongue?

Did you go to Chinnai again to see what percentage of Muslims are bad in Mathematics? Or was it, that they were good at a second [third?] language.

re: slink

Dear Shanhana

Teething pains? hmm... if i were in melbourne i would have believed you! but i am here in pakistan, inhaling the poisonous air of karachi as i write these lines. have been travelling a lot in country Sindh and punjab and experiencing life as it is for ordinary people of pakistan... ... i am overwhelmed, shocked, depressed, confused, humbled and absolutely disgusted with what i have experienced so far...i am afraid we have cancer on our hands.

Rachna #413

My only supporter on Chowk.

Thanks.

Can you allow me to add four more curses.

Re. krashid #404

No, he doesn`t, since he is both!

Ref ylh #: 382

[Now either you are extremely stupid, or you are from Rutgers...]

Er... would you care to re-phrase that?

Adnan_671 #292

I came back here after a long time and noticed a few posts. Along with some others I found a number of yours written in a cocky, adversarial, and aggressive mizaaj.

I couldn`t help but notice that your bravado was probably genuine but born of the tunnel vision nurtured by ``trained incapacity`` which all ``specialties`` are, so that the higher the level of ``trained incapacity``, the higher the level of general, categorical and dismissive ignorance.

Avoid this tendency; it sounds puerile.

Incidentally, is this the manner in which one cites the references to treatises? How am I going to find them, to educate myself and/or to check yours?

* * * * * *



Any discussion of Mr. Maududi and `his` Wahabi-ism, as witnessed by him through a rather detailed analysis of Charlie`s Angels, during his stay in the States at his son`s place in Buffalo, N.Y., his damnation of, [the Kuffr ka garrh], America [in a statement on return to Pakistan] where only Kaffirs should come to live

or visit -- maybe by this time he had become

aware of the detailed nature of the ``Kuffr-ana`` practices, more even than he could stomach,

of some doctors -- and his return to this `house of kuffr` due to his ill-health at a later time, must take place off these pages. Care to correspond on these matters?

A.N:

I will write the episode in few days. Hopefully, over the weekend, if I found sometime.

Later,

Oh wait did I just call myself a barbarian ? ...

ok let me correct myself... ``Aray mian barbarian hon gay app!``

Yasser

You know the problem with Islam today is that it is caught up in this fancy that Naqshbandis and other such foolish religio-mystical orders create... Its time we got rid of these fools!

Yasser Hamdani

Ulta chor kotwal ko dante... aray mian barbarian hon gay app, aur app kay abba jaan, aur app kay dadda jaan, aur app kay pardaada jaan.

You have paid attention to one part of Zahra`s advice... why dont you pay attention to the other part of her advice.

Yasser Hamdani

PS Hamza Yusuf SUX!

Dear Zahra,

Please go ahead and write about your interaction with Imam Hamza as you said earlier. I am still most interested in the whole matter. BTW, you never know, my response might not be as you anticipate (or it might!!)

Thanks for your advice about the barbarian--you are correct. ``Jawaab e jahilaaN khamoshi baashad``!

Zahra,

The comment that Rsaxena made was in response to Neurogen, who brought up the fact that I had cursed in a similar fashion earlier on the Siqafat Board.

-YLH

Rsaxena #

Do you know the difference between an urchin and a leech yet.

I love and understand Islam much more than this Talibani wannabe can ever do!

Next time you decide to call me the enemy of Islam remember that had it not been for my great ancestor you would not have Islam!

-YLH

Yasser:

Your humor was in a very poor taste! In fact, I do not even think you have ANY sense to differentiate between humor and vulgarity.

Deplorable!


A. Naqshbandi:

I feel that if someone apologizes he should be taken seriously unless he portrays otherwise. My initial feeling was that Yasser felt apologetic, but I doubt it now. The best you can do and you should do is completely ignore him.

I am still keen to narrate the episode and would be all ears to hear your input. I am also 100% positive that your input will not be very pleasing to my ears...but so what. At least you have the basic decency to talk than utter vulgarities like others.

Kind Regards,

Rsaxena,

Thanks for the support :) and encouragement ;)

YLH

the fact that the crude, vitriolic, uncouth barbarian swore at my mother only goes to show how ``civilised`` and devoid of ethics some of these so-called secularists like the enemy of islam ylh actually are...i will not reply in kind though i know plenty of choice words in punjabi, urdu and farsi as well as english; u see, our beloved religion teaches us not to swear. (And btw, i did not even start this use of expletives--in one of his previous posts he accused me of wanting to give ``BJs`` (his words) to the arabs...)

Then he was so incensed that i called the westerners his masters that he swore at my mother....

Jaa al haqq wa dhaahiqal baatil....

Re: The Neurogen & ylh Opera

If someone`s mother wants to sleep with ylh, I don`t see how it is his fault. All the power to him and shame on her.

Hope that helps.

Re: spout

Can it little girl. I had nothing to do with whatever happened at that Satan Stoning ceremony.

(I see you`re predictably at your little holier-than-thou phase.)

Rsaxena,

Unlike you, I don`t take pleasure from people`s death. For you to use the tragedy at Mecca to make fun of Muslims shows your cold hearted nature.

Don`t let anger or the need for revengeful drivel blind you towards becoming something which you shouldn`t be.

To others, Yes I did write that, and it was written in provocation and after constant harassment, which included an assault on my person.

Why is this fool bringing this BS out here anyway? Is it relevant.

Let us not forget that one of the founding members of this association Islamic Society at RUtgers went on to assist Ramzi in his quest to bring down the world trade center!

Neurogen,

AM I answerable to you .... I am not going to give you any answer... enough is enough of this bulshit... I didnt know they let your kind on CHowk.

Yasser Hamdani

Re: sigalph

``Saxena babu, that was a bit uncalled for.``

Sorry, that was meant for urchins like scout and krashid, not you. Apologies.

YLH,

Dids you or dids you not write `you fuked Junaid`s mother.`

Ise wants a simple answer.

Adnan #672

Try to think what institutions you want to create. Because those institutions are the building block and not the personal whims of ruler.

For example the institution of dictatorship or kingdom etc. Similarly what role the people play in Shariah.

If Umer RZAH was questioned by a common man regarding his wearing large cloth. How can the institution of dictatorship or king will allow common man to question the misdeeds of ruler.

Just a point to ponder.

Adnan 672 #375

You are in effect saying that joining the Army Government by Jamat-e-Islami reflects internal democracy of Jamat-e-Islami.

Does it mean that Jamat-e-Islami thinks democracy is good for it and bad for common man.

Moreover that is your personal thinking that Army rule is bad and in no way reflect the will of Jamat-e-Islami.

Scout #377

I thought you are a sensible lady.

But your remarks that there is prostitution in India and even that on a massive scale is uncalled for.

India has only two things. Democracy and Secularism. And rest are ramifications of it.

Killing in Kashmir is not for democracy but Secularism in India. Electing BJP is for democracy but not secularism in India.

As far as prostituion, it is for democracy and secularism both. The more it will be the more will be democracy and secularism.

When RSuxena becomes a male prostitute, that day will be remembered in India as a milestone of democracy and secularism.

scout:

``Things change, this is not the century when the Quran shareef was written, the world is a dynamic place and we have to change with it``.

O great one, in ur eternal wisdom pl. advise us as to wht parts of the quran shd be changed

This is an old apologist line, as u cant meet western ideals remaining bouded by Allahs commands u want to change His Words.

The Factual Position:

The quran shareef btw was never written. It is as all muslims beleive ``Qadeem``,we beleive it not to be created. This is the discussion on Khalq e Quran. Any sect which has beleived otherwise (the mutazilites for one) has been considered non beleivers by the muslims.

My pt. wht has not been created is indep. of time and space.



adnan

RSaxena:

I agree with Sigalph.

Please keep such cheap shots to yourself!

!!!Thanks!!!

re rsaxena

``The mooslim mela in the desert turns violent. More stoning of idols.``

Saxena babu, that was a bit uncalled for. Making gratutious fun of people`s faith is quite different than strong philosophical disagreements with a religion`s tenets.

The mooslim mela in the desert turns violent. More stoning of idols.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1203000/1203108.stm

``Thirty-five Muslim pilgrims have been killed in a stampede as the annual Muslim pilgrimage, the Hajj, reached its climax.

They died during the Stoning of Satan ritual on Monday``

``In 1998, at least 118 people died and more than 180 were injured in a stampede during the third and last day of the stoning ceremony.``

`` Like Muslims around the world, the pilgrims also slaughter sheep, goats, camels and cattle ``

Re: Spout

``Another thought: Canada is a very large country, much larger than India, and it`s prostitution rate is peanuts compared to India`s.``

Don`t strain your brain too much but by large we are talking about population not land area. Of course that subtle leap of logic was a little too much for you.

Yes everyone see for yourself...

http://www.siqafat.cjb.net

These fundoo tactics against me wont work!

Also

http://www.spindoctor.web.com

and

http://www.ylh.cjb.net

As far as posting as someone else... everyone at Rutgers knows... that YLH, Yasser Hamdani, Observer and Grey Wolf are all my nicks though people use them in order to embarrass me...

Neurogen,

There has been a systematic smearing campaign by the Islamic Fundamentalists at Rutgers against me.

For your information I have never written as anyone else... Whatever statements were made, were made in reaction to the constant bickering by the ISRU people. They assaulted me twice, and had you read the topic of that particular post, it was ``Yasser gets slapped ISRU wins the war``.

Now either you are extremely stupid, or you are from Rutgers...

The Islamic Fundamentalist fools at Rutgers have taken it upon them to terrorize me and my friends... they hit Faran the president of Siqafat, and they attacked Farhaj manytimes... then they Hacked the Siqafat message Board and erased all messages...

The mother-cursing was started by the ISRU people.

Solitude,

I am afraid you just present oneside of the picture...what happened in Kaaba was sociopolitical necessity... A monotheistic Faith with Kaaba its center was required to rid its holiest place of Symbol of ancient Paganism.....

However, Art forms and religious symbols of other communities have survived and have been protected

by Muslims a lot of the times if they have been destroyed at other times....

Ancient statues, and figures in Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Pakistan, are examples of this. After all the statues in Afghanistan also survived through out the Muslim rule .....

Amr ibn Aas was the ruler of Egypt in the times of Umar the second caliph. In Alexandria, I believe, there was a big statue of Jesus Christ, which was left unharmed by the Muslims.... one stupid Muslim Zealot broke the nose of that statue at night... Next day there was a lot of Hue and cry ... and the christians took their case to Amr ibn Aas... Placed in such a drastic position, Amr apologized and asked what he could do as rectification. The Christians demanded that a statue of Muhammad should be made and then the nose of that statue should be broken...Amr was infuriated but he controlled his temper, and offered to have his own nose cut instead ... when the ruling was being carried out the Zealot ran out and admitted his deed...

Jamaatis really shouldnt be talking... they were the enemies of Pakistan back when Pakistan was being formed, and they are the enemies of Pakistan today!

YLH,

``I have the greatest respect for every mother, sister and daughter...``

I would suggest everyone go to Siqafat and check out the article where YLH gets slapped and ends up crying.

Mr Hamdani claims in the replies section that he has fuked Junaid`s mother too. Not only that; he also disguises himself as someone else whilst making that comment...

YLH, do you something for mature women?

adnan_672,

``ur hatred for the commands of allah simply shows ur narow minded veiws.``

hatred is a strong word, please use it with caution. saying ``allah hafiz`` instead of ``khuda hafiz`` is not a command of Allah?

please grow up.

``u see u have made opposing allahs commands a complete religion.``

If we followed all of these so called ``commands`` half of which aren`t even in the Quran (they are in Hadiths), we`d go backwards instead of forwards in this progressive society.

Things change, this is not the century when the Quran shareef was written, the world is a dynamic place and we have to change with it.

``So long fanatics``

So long FUNDO!

rsuxena #371, ``As for prostitution, there are just more there because it is a larger country. Simple math.``

Wait a second, so where does this ``simple math`` go when you`re comparing India with Pakistan in various ways.

Another thought: Canada is a very large country, much larger than India, and it`s prostitution rate is peanuts compared to India`s.

So much for ``simple math.``

Please think before you post.

Shankar,

``Yasser`` is only as Arabic as the Word ``ummet`` is.

I am not against mutual borrowing but I am against arabicizing the language by continuing to use the Arabic pronounciation.

Arabs insist on calling me yeysir or yesir....

My name is Yasser.... pronounced ... Yaa-ser, the Urdu pronounciation...Great as Quaid e Azam Jinnah was... my destiny is linked with my own name.

Pakistan Zindabad

Yasser Hamdani

krashid:

Two pts i want to make

1. The jamaat joined the govt. as a means of enforcing shariat in the country

Zia was simply not doing that he wanted a political front so jamaat after this realization left.

2. This decision of jamaat was WRONG. Personally i m allergic to the army and consider it to be the no. 1 diesease affecting pakistani society. So any association with the army in my view is disasterous.

The democracy i wrote abt was an internal one. Jamaat btw is the only pol. org. which has elec. within its ranks.

(The ANP partly does so as well to keep the record st.)

adnan

A bigot is somebody who despises the other person for the latter`s ``beliefs``,colour, ethnicity, ...have no hatred towards people but only towards ideas that espouse hatred or looking-down on.....



UR statement

``Then, as I mentioned before, we will wait for you guys in Bengal where bigotry will not gain ac foothold until the Padma, Meghna, and Jamuna run red with the blood of freedom``

WAH WAH BHAI! this is precisely wht i want to make u ppl. say. To prove u are no better than the KKK.

btw i could write a lengthy article on wht the atrocities commited by mukti bahini, the murders rape etc etc. but i shall refrain from doing so bcos ur simply not ready to listen.

As for ur threats, in school we learnt empty vessels......

``I am content to let Allah set His limits and ordain his punishment. You or som.........``

But u mentioned drinking, wht does ur statement then mean pl. explain

``And Adnan, I have news for you: We will fight this bigot class at every turn``

I am petrified!

adnan

Rshivsena,

I can understand if you dont want to tell me what part of India youre from. But, PLEASE PLEASE dont tell me youre from my beloved Bombay!

O God! maybe youre related to Bal Thakrey! Buttheads like you are responsible for changing her name to Mumbai.

If you insist, go play kissy face with hamidm in Bhendi Bazaar or Kamhatipura.

ylh,

Isnt ``Yasser`` an Arabic name?! If so, you may have ``issues`` with your folks :) Maybe you should change your name to ``Jinnah Hamdani``--yeah! way to go, baby!

I must commend you for having matured a lot these past few months. Once in a while, the old ylh does show his stupid face, though. If Asif calls you a ``slave``, does that make you one?! Get real!

It takes maturity to apologise for making a boo boo. Many of us have:)

Re: spout

``Send me a ticket, I wanna go to Bombay, dammit.``

I think you would get smacked around if you showed up in Bombay chanting ``your morals are wrong`` and ``khuda hafiz`` and ``i am right`` and ``you, girl, put this burkha on and stop showing your ankles``

As for prostitution, there are just more there because it is a larger country. Simple math. Next time think before you look like a dolt trying to make a comeback.

re adnan 672

``ps: the democracy issue: bhai at least read the posting properly, i was talking abt democracy internally within jamaat, those opposed to an alliance with zia had to follow the verdict of the majority.``

A. Thanks for clarifying it. Something tells me that this clarification was an afterthought to my rejoinder. Nonetheless, I am happy that the Jamaat believes in some form of rudimentary democracy.

``btw jamiat launched a campaign against the ban on student unions, speaks volumes for indep. of IJT from Jamaat Is there another example of this in the student groups in pakistan??``

A. I don`t know and I don`t care. Frankly. if Hitlerjuegend agitated against a ban on student/youth unions, they are not likely to find much sympathy, are they?

``1. Dont u realize ur hatred makes u as much a bigot as any mullah.``

A. A bigot is somebody who despises the other person for the latter`s beliefs, colour, ethnicity, language etc. I do not fit in that categoty. I have no hatred towards people but only towards ideas that espouse hatred or looking-down on other religions, races, political philosophies, and ethnicities. The Jamaat and the rest of that class fit that bill, I don`t. You need a better debate teacher.

``2. I do not know abt the statement and of the moulana himself btw. but ill find out. Till then i take ur word and condemn this statement in unequivocal terms. It is indeed a shameful statement IF made by any mamber of jamaat.``

A. Maulana Delawar Sayeedi is a member of the Majlis-e-Shura of Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh and one of that neo-Nazi party`s two MPs.

``3. My friend there r certain limits set forth by Allah. Drinking is expressly forbidden, so either come out in the open and declare that u have chosen to rebel against Allah or is it merely trying to gain attention by shccking?``

A. I am content to let Allah set His limits and ordain his punishment. You or some other human commits a preposterous shirk when he substitutes himself for the Almighty in matters of social mores and their punishment. If the above is indeed your true statement, you ought to seek forgiveness for major shirk-there is no greater sin in Islam.

``4. Try to be a true liberal, do not hate ppl. or groups, u may be opposed to them but hatered will get u nowhere.``

A. I have no intention of being a liberal, true or otherwise. I am a libertarian conservative, capitalist, Republican, who defends the most ancient idea of all, as mentioned by Thomas Jefferson, `All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights...amongst these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.` Questions?

``5. Finally i would like to point out, to other chowksters as well, that the statements abt the rt. wing in Pakistan which many make on chowk simply shows the narrow mindedness and bigoted mentality of the so called secular liberal elements.``

A. What you say is the `right wing` is neither right nor a wing. It is the dead wrong deadweight dragging Jinnah`s Pakistan into nightmare of a society where a select class of beareded and turbaned high-priests will decide every decision of every individual`s personal and collective life.

And Adnan, I have news for you: We will fight this bigot class at every turn, every debate, every spring. Pakistan may be lost but not without a fight. Then, as I mentioned before, we will wait for you guys in Bengal where bigotry will not gain a foothold until the Padma, Meghna, and Jamuna run red with the blood of freedom fighers. Keep in mind that we are still the Bengal Tigers who gave the Jamaat bigots a bloody nose a short thirty years ago.

Rsuxena #363, `` ...take home either the Norwegian amabassador`s daughter or 40-year-old Mrs.Khopdiwala (if you don`t mind the paunch).``

Ohhh, that must be why India has the highest rate of prostitution in all of the third world countries and the highest incidence of AIDS.

Wow what a paradise!

Send me a ticket, I wanna go to Bombay, dammit.

(I know Karachi`s not a paradise city either, so don`t go misquoting me)

TAhmed 321# 347

Please see Ayah:

9:90, 9:97, 9:98, 9:101, 48:11, 48:16, 49:14

regarding Bedouins.

Adnan 672 #349

Since you did not want to answer those questions because of lack of reference, I will not presss, But they are facts.

The only question you answered was that Jamat-e-Islami joined ministership in Zia`s Cabinet for some sort of democracy.

So tell me why did they resign after seven months. Did they realize after seven months that it is not some sort of democracy?

hamidm and scout:

ur postings truely reveal wht arbakan said

there r no secular ppl. they r just as bigoted in their opinions.

ur hatred for the commands of allah simply shows ur narow minded veiws.

u see u have made opposing allahs commands a complete religion.

be brave enough to declare that u will fight at every step against allahs commands

So long fanatics

adnan

sigalph:

ps: the democracy issue: bhai at least read the posting properly, i was talking abt democracy internally within jamaat, those opposed to an alliance with zia had to follow the verdict of the majority.

btw jamiat launched a campaign against the ban on student unions, speaks volumes for indep. of IJT from Jamaat

Is there another example of this in the student groups in pakistan??

adnan

Dear sigalph:

Some observations on ur posting:

1. Dont u realize ur hatred makes u as much a bigot as any mullah.

2. I do not know abt the statement and of the moulana himself btw. but ill find out. Till then i take ur word and condemn this statement in unequivocal terms. It is indeed a shameful statement IF made by any mamber of jamaat.

3. My friend there r certain limits set forth by Allah. Drinking is expressly forbidden, so either come out in the open and declare that u have chosen to rebel against Allah or is it merely trying to gain attention by shccking?

4. Try to be a true liberal, do not hate ppl. or groups, u may be opposed to them but hatered will get u nowhere.

5. Finally i would like to point out, to other chowksters as well, that the statements abt the rt. wing in Pakistan which many make on chowk simply shows the narrow mindedness and bigoted mentality of the so called secular liberal elements.

adnan

Re: hamidm

``next time you are on the wrong side of wagha, call me, and i will take you to heaven on earth ...... you bring the whiskey``

If you ever make it to the right side of the border, you call me and I will bring all the whiskey and merlot you want. And if you leave the wife and kids home, I will get us into Nineteen Hundreds at the top floor of the Taj Mahal Hotel in Bombay where you can shake your booty to Daler Mehndi and Wu Tang Clan and take home either the Norwegian amabassador`s daughter or 40-year-old Mrs. Khopdiwala (if you don`t mind the paunch). And guess what? It would all be legal and no one will drag you to Mahalaxmi temple for a beating or a conversion.

Of course there are exceptions, but hamidm is kinda right, most of these middle aged ``hijabans`` and confused ABCD ``hijabans`` have discovered God after doing their share of ``sinful`` behavior.

nau sau chuwain khakay billi Haj ko chali

ylh #361, ``Pakistani Professional Women seldom wear the Hijab!``

I agree. Only the ones inspired by their Iranian counterparts.

Rsaxena,

I can assure you that I had never noticed a woman in Hijab untill I came to the US. Kindly reserve your judgements till you see the real deal for yourself. Pakistani Professional Women seldom wear the Hijab!

To The Rest,

I think Hamidm`s comment is misunderstood by most people, he obviously was speaking out against the Maulvi attitude towards professional women!

Yasser Hamdani

Its been a very long time since Chowk people posted anything from the Pakistani Nationalist perspective... Why is there selective screening ..

with either ``Pakistan was a desperate measure, Jinnah, a good man, was wrong and made an error in creation of Pakistan`` view or there is ``Pakistan is wrong, Jinnah is a communal Monster, and we should unite India or have United States of South Asia`` view. Why isnt the view ``Pakistan was our right, sovereignty belongs to the people who want it, and that the principle of self determination allows us the right to our own future`` ever published. Whatever the merits of all three views, we know very well that all three views are held by a great number of people.... and that Indian Nationalist and Pakistani Apologist point of views are not the only two types of views on Chowk.... there is a third view the ``Pakistani Nationalist`` view... when will this repressive denial of identities (in the name of Humanity ?) end? Dont we have the right as human beings to be what we want to be?

For that matter why was my poem ``awaited Messiah`` selected in a yet to be published anthology by a Jewish Arabicist ``Ironic Islam``... was rejected by the chowk staff?... and I wonder why, my article

``Revisionism amongst Pakistanis`` an article which won praise from the likes of Mr Cowasjee... I can quote the email, was rejected as below standard by Chowk people? Clearly there has to be an end to shameless censorship and Pakistani Apologetics!

Pakistan is here, and it is right... for that is why it is here!

Real Humanism is to realize and appreciate a people`s right to their sovereignty... Real humanism is to accept differences!

Long Live Pakistani Nationalism!

Down with ``fake`` Humanism!

Down with Pakistani Apologists!

rsaxena

....... you are an idiot - and i say that affectionately ...... next time you are on the wrong side of wagha, call me, and i will take you to heaven on earth ...... you bring the whiskey and i`ll get phaja to deliver his paye to her elysian boudoir, aka, kotha .....of course, after we are done with all the merriment i will have to hand you over to naqshbandi and urstruly so that they can take you mansoora and try to convert you to the faith, or beat you to death ........

.....and forget this nonsense about hijab-clad moon-faced islamic nuns at the banks; it is not that bad - yet ..........the gals at citibank and askari bank never fail to warm the cockles of my heart ..... i do share your concern that naqshbandi`s brothers in misguided faith are driving our women behind the walls of newly created convents like the one that once housed rafiq tarrar`s equally clueless predecessors ....... and yes, i do see a lot of women starting to drape themselves in bedsheets as a badge of piety and to save themselves from the wrath and lustful stares of the pungent bearded hordes........luckily for us most of these women are the broad-bottomed middle-aged variety who, now that they are past their prime, have discovered god .......

re adnan 672`s

``Why did Jamat-e-Islami supported the Army in its killing and rape of Bengalis.

R u for real. Is this a sane question. The simple answer is THEY DID NOT.``

Have you ever been to Bengal and spent some time there talking to the average folks? Everybody worth his/her salt knows how deep the Jamaat`s involvement was, political and later physical, in suporting the Pakistan Army`s ethnic cleansing. In a speech during the 1996 parliamentary elections Jamaat leader (and now MP) Maulana Delawar Hossain Sayeedi claimed that a lot of the women who were violated by the Pakistani soldiers could take comfort in the fact that it would be considered a matter of mut`a marriage in the defence of the Islamic homeland against Hindus (somebody later pointed out to the maulana that this concept of `temporary marriage` is a Shiite thing but he didn`t retract his filthy statement anyway). The simple fact remains that everybody who thinks and knows (obviously this rules out the assorted bigot class of JI, JUI, JUP etc) knows the fifth column role of Jamaat-e-naIslami during the War of Independence.

You joining Zia`s cabinet was an act of democratic participation? Yeah, only a Jamaati can convolute the facts so much.

Frankly all of you pseudo-mullah wannabees should relax your mind and have a drink or two. That might let your minds and souls regenerate the precious brain-cells lost under the whip of the mullah nonsense.

I wouldnt have crossed this limit had Naqshbandi not repeatedly used that word. I have the greatest respect for every mother, sister and daughter...

How about Asif Naqshbandi apologizes for his slave comment, which he has made repeatedly, and I will

apologize!

Laton kay bhoot baton say nahin mante!

Re : Hamidm

``should i be writing this note in arabic ? asthagfirullah ! ........ this is the kind of nonsense that will drive a man to drink and blow up giant buddhas ........... ``

This was priceless. ROTFL.

Thanks for cheerinmg us up on this cold, dark, grey morning inn California.

Hamid Sahib, it really is about time that yoiu come out of the closet and take full responsibiliy for your guffaws coded small pieces, by writing a full article, in the same tone, and with lots of dots in it. I tell you, you will be the biggest thing on Chowk, next to ginat buddha smashing Talibans.

Best Regards

Asim

Re: hamidm

``...but that still doesn`t take away from the fact that heera mandi is a far better place than GP road``

Fine, i haven`t been to either so i`ll take your word for it.

``.... our professional women, or whores as they are called in less sophisticated circles, are better than yours``

I don`t think so. Running around at an Islamic bank in a hijab chanting ``khuda hafiz`` at every customer doesn`t say much about professional Pakistani women.

ylh #330 I see what Zahra and ahmedb are complaining about. You only lower yourself when you make such remarks, not the person you are attacking. I appreciate many of your views (not all). But there can be no room for discussion when you make disgusting personal attacks like this.

Omarphoenix #3hundred something: ``Let`s keep Urdu and Arabic exclusive. It would be paying the language respect by using the correct pronunciations, spellings etc etc; so If I speak Urdu, then I say Mazhab, and if Arabic, then Madhab.``

Paying a language respect? How do you pay a language respect? Agreed on the substance though: As I said earlier, you can tell when something is fake, and when someone pronounces Z as D (presumably to please Allah), then he is a fake.

``Learning of the two languages should be made free to the public, i.e. there should be centres that exclusively teach the two languages.``

There is no free lunch. Who will pay for the centers? What you need is a broad-based education program that is strategically defined to address some real issues and certainly English - the de facto international language today - should be promoted. Interesting how nationalists in the third world as well as in the first world (in countries like France etc.) tried to fight of English for years, but natural and economic and technological trends are the real determinants in such things.

krashid #341 Agreed except about the bedoins: I dont think it is fair to put down any people since there are good and bad people in every group. I can understand your frustration though at the awe with which Arabs and Arabic is treated by mullahs: when I was a student, I once saw a Jammaati fellow respectfully listening and saying ``Ameen, Ameen`` while two Palestinians were chatting in Arabic - knowing those to Palestinians, they were probably chatting about how to get the girls` attention (an eternal problem with these fellows).

re ylh 330

Yasser, I join others in disapproving the language used in your retort to Asif Naqshbandi. Such words are inappropriate for a future Prime Minister of Pakistan. Remember the Maulanas called the Quaid ``Kafir-e-Azam`` but Mr Jinnah never stooped to those depths of depravity in return.

There is no greater insult to me, then someone calling me a slave... and I will respond in the most proposterous statements... if anyone has the audacity to say something like that.

RE: YLH # 330

ylh, the probablity that you conceived Asif is the same as the probability of you conceiving yourself.

This is known as recursion in computer science.

krashid:

1. Do u reserve the rt to use any tone u want?



2. Again u have made the fatal error in ur questions, it called ``begging the question``, u posed some rhetorical questions, that is NOT the way to argue.

As for the answers here goes (although this manner of questioning deserves no answer) but with bigots like u wht else can one expect.

Do you believe Yahya Khan was Mardi Momin. If .....

They did not, pl. give a reference, besides one that traces all roots of knowledge to urself.

The same question about Zia-ul-Haq.

Reference again, jamaats offical history is ``Rodaad e Jamaat e Islami`` pl. quoite from an authentic source



Why did Jamat-e-Islami supported the Army in its killing and rape of Bengalis.

R u for real. Is this a sane question. The simple answer is THEY DID NOT.

Why did Jamat-e-Islami accepted ministership in Zia-ul-Haque regime?

Because Jamaat has accepted politics as a legitimate way of implementing her ideas. Personally I and many other Jamaat workers were and r against this but u have to let democracy rule within the party and without.

My friend krashid, u see as i mentioned ur seething hatred leaves u no better a person than SSP and TJP followers.

This also proves my point that there is nothing such as a liberal person. We r all bigots in our own beleifs and ideas.

The right is better than the left in Pakistan cos at least we try to listen to the other side, we may disagree but we do not start cursing when we have no point to make.

Some advice, if u r really sincere in ur criticism pl. give some mature pts. of opp. Jamaats tht and path is there in its literature. Pl. read it with an open mind. And again these were simply very personlized views u exp.

adnan

hamidm #320,

now that was funny...

khuda hafiz rules!

ylh #330, ``.As for my honor, I lost it when I slept with your mother, and conceived you!``

Even if you don`t agree with Asif, or are angry with him, I believe you should apologize for that post.

Let`s keep our respect for mothers and fathers intact. You should have just called him an idiot and moved on.

krashid #340

The last line should read.

Aaj Kal Allah Mian Ka Arab Nationalism Urooj Pur Hai. Earthquake Bhi Non-Arab Pur Nazil Kar Raha Hai.

Yasser,

[Asif Naqshbandi, I asked you not to call anyone my masters.......]

I just logged on to write my thoughts on Humza Yousaf, when I came across your post. I often write on other forums as well when I am in the mood. But I like Chowk, for its interactions - as they reveal a lot. The revelation process involves many steps - people argue, listen, agree, disagree, confront, convince, relate, and narrate to exchange views in a sensible manner. This effort also proves to be a learning experience. You also get to hear your own people whom you won’t have heard otherwise.

Personally, I am shocked and disgusted to read your post! Apparently, it was written in Josh than in Hosh. Whatever. It was in a very poor taste! You may be on a crusade to have everyone agree with you, but I am sorry you`ll be very disappointed if you think that will ALWAYS happen. In short, by writing derogatory comments you will NEVER EVER attract anyone as your follower or a comrade, Yasser.

I thought you believed in liberalism/secularism? I also thought liberals/seculars held more tolerance than the [rigid] fanatics or sweet fundamentalists. In reality, that`s not true! Liberalism/Secularism, does not let fear of God kick in? Or does it?

Very Disappointed!




Asif Naqshbandi,

I’ll certainly write my question and your hero, Humza Yousaf`s answer. I wanted to ask you: What do the religious authorities say on calling a person with a name[in this case, ``your masters``] that is not acceptable to him? And also, if that person has repeatedly raised his voice that he stands by his views and is not a puppet?

Thanks.

In response to ylh (Reply # 330)

I am ashamed to read Yasser`s response to Asif Naqshbandi.

Sadly yours, Bilal Ahmad

TAhmed 321 #317

Not only that the Quran is in Arabic, but also the reason is given in Quran i.e. All the prophets have been sent to their nation in their own language.

Does it make sense that the other languages in which ``Wahi`` came were less Godly.

Not only that according to the history, upto the time of Hazrat Usman people used to recite Quran acording to their own dialect and wording. And it was thought that with time original message will be lost or corrupted and that was the reason of having collection of Quran in its original form. So recitation of Koran in other dialects and ways were allowed upto the time of Hazrat Usman.

As far as Arab BEDOUINS are concerned, they have been mentioned in Koran as bad people.

Siagalph237 #237

On your response to Naqsbandi of asking in Arabic after death.

It looks like that according to ylh assertion Prophet PBUH was Arab Nationalist (I have very different opinion) but even God is Arab Nationalist sending his angels to talk in Arabic. And anyone not knowing Arabic will not pass the TEST of ``Akhara``

Not only that if you realize that God has given Oil wealth to mainly Arab nation my belief strengthens further that HE is Arab Nationalist.

Hai Raam Ub Kia Ho Ga.

Arab Mullah--Arab Allah Ittihad Yahudiun Aur Kuffar Ke Liye Maut Ka Pegham Hai.

Aaj Kul Allah Mian Ka Arab Nationalism Urooj Pur Hai. Earthquake Bhi Kuffar Pur Nazil Kur Raha Hai.

Dear Urstruly, Yasser, TAhmad, Asif, Hamidm and everyone else,

Let`s keep Urdu and Arabic exclusive. It would be paying the language respect by using the correct pronunciations, spellings etc etc; so If I speak Urdu, then I say Mazhab, and if Arabic, then Madhab.

For what it`s worth, Arabic should be either made compulsory or promoted for the Muslim only so that we may read the Quran as a book as opposed to the usual heirogliphics that one reads on a dusswaan, chaaliswaan (in my opinion a complete disrespect to the language and a useless abhorant tradition). Meaninga of the words are lost when you translate a language (and this has nothing to do with Islam being timeless etc etc). English should also be made compulsory or promoted as it`s the language of science.

Learning of the two languages should be made free to the public, i.e. there should be centres that exclusively teach the two languages.

If possible, the cause could be promoted by more NGOs, charities or even educated people participating in these activities. (I`m refraining from mentioning Urdu becayuse it`s our national language).

I`m ready for the backlash.

Allah di spurd.

Umer Murtaza Phoenix.

..so the query was directed only to those like Asif #263

My doubt #326 was created by statements like Asif`s #263.

ylh#331

Agreed

Why is it that people are adept at pointing at the 5% extremists, when their own countrymen are the most notorious for destroying places of worship of the minority community, and then building their own places of worship on top of them!

Sadna,

First of all we are not an Islamic State... and secondly an overwhelming majority of Pakistanis believe in voting! So your question is out of line...

Saxena,

We had nothing to do with the world trade center bombing... As for our contribution, the ratio of

Computer nerds in the silicon valley of Pakistani to Indian is propotionally higher than the ratio of Pakistanis to Indians in this world....

Time to be fair.

Yasser Hamdani

PS

I go to Rutgers... it has one of the largest Arab student Populations in the US... I know Arabs too well, and the culture they promote in the guise of their Islamic Societies at Universities sponsored and funded by the Saudis!

Urstruly,

Did you read my last post?

I said 1) Urdu 2) Muslim Culture 3) South Asian Civilization... these are the three pivotal principles of Pakistani Nationalism!

I too believe in ``Ummet`` ... as an Economic Union based on the European Union, a

pseudo-confederation of Muslim Nations working together to alleviate societal ills, and poverty.

Ummet is not nation but a community of Nations with the same religious beliefs, Millet is Nation, and neither of these two are necessarily ``Watan`` based as the Asif Naqshbandi tries to present my views as, watan is simply the national homeland of ``Millet``... but ``Millet`` extends the borders of ``Watan``. Many Muslim Millets together make the Ummet!

Yasser Hamdani

Asif Naqshbandi,

I asked you not to call anyone my masters....

Now, listen you have earned my vengeance for all times....As for my honor, I lost it when I slept with your mother, and conceived you!

There is an 18-yo recent immgrant to the US who is going through some serious identity crises,and (I think) is need of some cultural lifelines and emotional support as she deals with some scary issues. She is from the Jackson Heights area. If anyone knows where she could find such help, pleae email me postmatser@yahoo.com.

Thanks,

P.M

rsaxena #319

...okay, i agree ... but that still doesn`t take away from the fact that heera mandi is a far better place than GP road .... our professional women, or whores as they are called in less sophisticated circles, are better than yours .. and in the end, that is all that matters ....... even the jihadis are dying for the company of celestial concubines .......

re asif n`s

``When we die we all will be questioned in arabic``

Don`t you worry guys, that`s a scare tactic. Under the provisions of the Sixth Amendment (fair trial et al) we will be provided with adequate translation. In fact, I am told that each guy gets a houri to be a personal translator. If that doesn`t work, find me because I`ll be happy to sub-contract out my Moroccan and Lebanese friends (minimum wage applies). Oh yes, payment accepted in dollars, euros, and pouns sterling only. DOn`t try to give me afghanis-they won`t work in the hereafter either.

Why is voting for creation of Pakistan taken to be a Godly sign for creation of a Islamic state but voting after an Islamic state is established considered unGodly?

YLH

That is not what you said in your earlier posts. I think you are paranoid about Arab Imeprialism. It is non exitent. Either you have never met Arabs or you are just exagarating it. We are as Punjabi as we can be-but we cant be Sikhs if that is what you want-sorry no can do. The concept of Ummah is as real and practical as the concept of Globalization. Open up your eyes and mind and look around-you will see it in the process of materializing.

ylh #307 In other words, what you are saying is to be natural, rather than putting on accents. Good advice.

sigalph #305 Actually the Quran does refer to itself as being an Arabic Quran. However, the explanation that is provided for the Quran as being in Arabic is the opposite of the way the mullahs explain it: this Quran is in Arabic, it says, in order to make the message understandable to people to whom the message was being delivered. The Quran explicitly states that it does not change anything from the message that was sent through the prophet Moses and through other prophets. (And indeed, in essence the basic message in all religions is the same even as their fanatics condemn one another). The importance lies in the message not the language. Nowhere in the Quran is Arabic given any special status over other languages, or this holy book in Arabic over holy books deliverd in other languages, or muslims any special status over other people (all individuals being subject to judgement on the Final Day) and it is explicitly noted that it is incorrect for people of any religion (including Islam) to consider themselves a chosen people. Or to associate their prophet with God in any way other than as a messenger who is charged with delivering a message. All this is is vast contrast to the beliefs held by many people who read the Quran without understanding.

Re: krashid

``Believe me I am not from Pakistan but Mars.``

Didn`t you say you were from Central Park?

PS

When words are borrowed they are adopted as the language`s own... words like Ummet etc are now Urdu words also...

Yasser Hamdani

Dear Urstruly,

The matter is not to approach the Muslim World at large for that can be done in another ways... the problem we face is to rid Pakistani Islam of Arab cultural imperialism, and to secure our National frontiers, and hence our National Religion.

I think it should be absolutely clear that Principles of Pakistani Nationalism are the following.. (eversince Bangladesh became an independent country which it should ve been in 1947.)

1) National Language : Urdu

2) Muslim Culture

3) South Asian Civilization

These three things we have to incorporate to have a truly sovereign nation.

Yasser Hamdani

....... uimmah, ummet - who gives a flip .... i am still pissed off at allah-hafiz ... what happened to good old khuda-hafiz which i grew up with ???..... about ten years ago, without telling me, they switched ... at first i thaught it was the homely PIA stewardess who in addition to being plain was stupid .... then i noticed it was everyone else .... even my christian friends had switched - i guess for them it was a matter of survival ....... did this have something to do with the positioning of the dopatta on the heads of ptv announcers ? ..... or did we change gods ?? ... asif and adnan - please explain ...

........ and whaen did we start offering salat instead of namaz ?? ......... ``salat ka waqt ho gaya hai``..... what ?? ........ it was hard enough offering three fards - now we have to go through some convoluted bedouin ritual ? ........ and why are little children dressed up as arabs with rags on their heads ? .... and why are fat and ugly middle aged women wearing scarves, hijabs or whatever .... where did this come from ? ..... what happened to my grandmother`s black and grey burqas ?

........... should i be writing this note in arabic ? asthagfirullah ! ........ this is the kind of nonsense that will drive a man to drink and blow up giant buddhas ...........

Re: hamidm

So the crumbling mud hut with a $3000 Ethan Allen couch is better than the stable one-room studio made of concrete and wood? Face it, Pakistan is a nearly bankrupt sewage tank with no hope for the economy, a military dictator, religious nuts with AK-47s who will shoot anyone who condemns shariah, and as many friends as shankar when he is calling little girls ``cute jalapenos`` on the Internet. Name the last worthy contribution Pakistan made to the world...other than the big bang at the World Trade Center a few years ago.

(Even those wretched South Indians at least made their mark in IT.)

ylh--obviously your masters told you to talk in such a manner when you cant argue convincingly. What great manners they have taught you. btw, you are not worthy even to stand in the same room as Imam Hamza (nor am i but I can at least respect his greatness...)

I never said islam was just for the arabs--i merely pointed out the fact that it does have arabic roots and so much of the ibadat etc. is in arabic. Why dont you pray your salaH in Urdu then?

And the Qur`an itself says that it is a qur`an in the arabic language! When we die we all will be questioned in arabic... The muslim arabs are not better than the muslim non-arabs and vice-versa (except thru piety) BUT we should respect and love them [the muslim ones obviously] because our beloved Master and lord sayyidina wa mawlana muhammad al mustafa sal allahu alayhi wa sallam was an arab, indeed sayyid al arab (w`al ajam)!

And it is in the hadith that ALLAH created Huzoor Paak from the BEST of tribes and nations i.e. Quraysh.

I am proud to be a slave of the family of my beloved Prophet sal allahu alayhi wa sallam.

krashid-- you can read about that mas`ala on this site http://ummah.cjb.net

go to section 14 and then click on Holy Prophet Muhammad (sal allahu alayhi wa sallam). this will take u to two articles on hazir wa nazir. i hope u will read them...

ylh 307

The point is that whether you pronounce Ummah or Ummet,Salat or Salah the words remain Arabic. Urdu borrowed the Maccan accent though. However, I will side with you that the words should be pronounced as they are in Urdu on this site but again rest/most of the Muslim world follows the Medina accent therefore you get a benefit of reaching to a wider audience if you follow Madina accent.

shankar #286: There might be a photograph of Umair Khan on one of his companys` websites. My own guess is that he probably looks quite different from me. But since I have never met him, or seen him, I cannot be certain. Umair, along with Amir and a few others, seems to have been a common first name for newborns of my generation. So you will find quite a few Pakistani Umairs (and a lot of Amirs) in their thirties. I hope that answers you first question.

I ended up changing from Umairr to ROmair because, for some reason, many of my replies as Umairr would not show up on Chowk. It`s a Hindu conspiracy. They have hacked this site, gotten to the cgi scripts, which are handling the replies, and have successfully modified them. Pretty soon they will in our homes, on our TVs and Satellite Dishes, in our VCRs and cassette players, and in our magazine shops. Or has that already happened :-)

Shankar #286

If you read the interview of Umair Khan of clickmark you will notice that there is no mention of association with armed forces. While ROmair (previous Umair) has mentioned his association with armed forces in past.

I also reached this conclusion after reading Umair Khan of clickmark (Like Nawab of KalaBagh) interview.

Dear Sigalph,

I totally agree, as a matter of fact you can consider this a formal invitation on behalf of my future government to be a guest at the Prime Minister House... :)

Yasser Hamdani

Asif Naqsbandi #289

So tell me the ``Mas`ala`` of Hazir o Nazir Prophet.

Believe me I am from Pakistan and not Mars. I will try to understand your opinion regarding this.

Adnan 672 #291

I don`t see any logic.

Personal aside. That is tolerable. And I can give many incidences.

But I have asked you questions on other board regarding the Jamat-e-Islami.

As I am sure history is going to repeat itself again.

Jamat played a crucial role in maligning political parties in late fifties. And when Ayub Khan took the rein of power in his hand Jamat was instrumental in Ayub`s effort to curb the opposition. Later when Ayub Khan thought that opposition is curbed, Jamat-e-Islami started a movement against Ayub (political expediency) as the sole representative of people. Ayub was no pious. He did the same to Jamat-e-Islami what he did to other parties. That is why your Maulana Mowdudi supported Fatimah Jinnah.

The same story is being repeated again when all the political parties are maligned and Jamat was instrumental in this. Thinking and reiterating itself again as the sole spokesman of people. History will again repeat itself. Musharraf is no pious this time.

Now the questions:

1- Do you believe Yahya Khan was Mardi Momin. If not why did Jamat-e-Islami called him Mardi Momin.

2- The same question about Zia-ul-Haq.

3- While there was movement against Ayub Khan, why Jamat-e-Islami suddenly realized to launch ``Yom-e-Shaukat-e-Islam`` to divert the movement against Ayub Khan?

4- Why did Jamat-e-Islami supported the Army in its killing and rape of Bengalis.

5- Why did Jamat-e-Islami accepted ministership in Zia-ul-Haque regime?

6- Why did Jamat-e-Islami supported the referendum of Zia-ul-Haq in qhich it was said that if you like Islam elect Zia for 5 (or ten) years.

I can go on and go on. can you care to answer these few questions.

Adnan 672 #292

I don`t know where are you posting this from. If you believe in prophet`s words then no such thing exist as discord among Muslim due to which he did not kill Ubayy. I am giving quotations from Martin Ling book Mohammed published 1983 by George Allen and UnWin Ltd. I will give page number. Parenthesis is mine to show the continuity.

pp #108

One of the leading man of oais (Medina) Abdallah bin Ubayy was favored by many as possible king-----and it was exceedingly doubtful whether Aws would be capable of accepting a king (Ubayy) who was not of their tribe.

pp #128-129

Abdullah bin Ubayy was also felt himself to have been frustrated by the coming of prophet PBUH and---He likewise had bitterness of his own son Abdallah altogether won over by prophet, as well as daughter jamilah----(Ibn Ubayy did not want to fight prophet) Ibn Ubayy was prepared to wait, thinking that sooner or later the newcomers overwhelming influence would begin to ebb.----and as to Ibn Ubayy, he soon saw his influence dwindling and that if he did not enter Islam it would vanish altogether (so he accepted Islam)

pp # 161-162

He (Ibn Ubayy) had too often tasted the bitterness of being clearly shown by his once devoted followers that their allegiance to him was far outweighed by another allegiance (to Prophet PBUH).

(After many treacheries by Ibn Ubayy until battle of trench)

pp# 238

``Have they gone so far as this`` said Ibn Ubayy (regarding Immigrants or Mohajir) ``They seek to take precedence over us, they crowd us out of our own country---- (When prophet PBUH heard this) Umar who was with him, suggested that he should forthwith had the traitor beheaded, but he (prophet) said ``WHAT IF MEN SHOULD SAY O UMAR THAT MOHAMMED SLAYETH HIS COMPANIONS?``

(Then Ibn Ubay came to the prophet and said that he had said no such thing)---

Meanwhile Abdallah, the son of Ibn Ubayy was deeply distressed for he knew that his father has spoken those words -----So he went to the prophet and said ``O Messenger of God, I am told that thou art minded to slay Abdallah Bin Ubayy. If thou must needs to do it, then give me the order, and I will bring thee his head--- But the prophet said ``NAY, BUT LET US DEAL GENTLY WITH HIM AND MAKE THE BEST OF HIS COMPANIONSHIP SO LONG AS HE BE WITH US``

(After this on Aisha`s slander Ubayy played a role. Later he accompanied prophet to Hudabiyah)

pp # 322

----traditional account differ as to the state of soul in which he (Ubayy) died, but all are unaminous that the prophet PBUH led the funeral prayer for him and prayed besides his grave when he has benn buried.

Now these incidences which clearly show the sayings of prophet regarding the matter of Ubayy has no bearing with Haq Nawaz Jhangwi Case who was trialed for murder and given death sentence.

If you can bring some historical perspective from the books you mentioned regarding your assertion that prophet PBUH did not kill Ubayy because of discord in society. And moreover according to Islam nobody even president cannot pardon a murderer but only the family by accepting ``Khunbaha``

Adnan 672 #293

That post was a test for Naqsbandi.

But your response only allows me to say to you that stop your big mouthing and learn some Islamic manners before coming to this post.

And the Ayah you are referring is regarding Muslims being witness on other people and Muhammed being witness on Muslims on day of judgement. So it means that all the Muslims are Hazir Nazir also based on this Ayah you quoted.

Anyway do you believe that Prophet is Hazir Nazir or not. Please answer this question in Yes or No.

Urstruly,

I dont understand what the point of your post is... ummet for that matter is an Arabic Word... What I am merely saying is lets pronounce it the Urdu Way... as for Salaat, doesnt namaaz or Ibadat

sound better?

-Yasser Hamdani

naqshbandi and adnan(RA)

......i have always maintained that pakistan, inspite of religious crazies like you two - and i hope and pray that you live and die in the west fighting windmills - is a much better place than that cess pool across the border .... ayaz amir, in todays dawn, bears first hand witness to my claim :

``I even went to GP Road, Delhi`s answer to Hira Mandi. Patriotism need have no fears on this score: GP Road is not a patch on Lahore`s famed Bazaar of Beauty. Up narrow flights of stairs lie low-roofed tenements crowded with imports from Nepal, whose grasping attitude, driven by God knows what extremes of deprivation and poverty, gives them the aspect of predators. Before those grim sights even my stout heart quailed. ``

... rsaxena - eat your heart out !

re fuzair #295

You mention Deobandis, Wahabis, Maulana Maudidi etc. PLease add to that the Taleban, the JUI, the Sipah Sahaba, and the rest. And don`t worry about your inability to make the fine distinctions. Does it really matter that some of them only want to eliminate their opponents once while the others want to do it ten times over? A bigot is a bigot is a bigot no matter what ayat of the Qur`an he uses for his nefarious purpose.

Re asif n

``The Quran is an ARABIC Quran``. No sir. It is meant as a message to Mankind, including the vast, vast majority who don`t speak Arabic and have no desire to do so. Allah has no need to prefer a language (nauzubillah)-that`s a very human need like food and shelter. Most likely the Quran was sent in Arabic, just as most of the prophets were sent to that region, because those Bedouins needed to be reformed more than anybody else. Brother, you need to come out of this cultural imperialism that has mastered your heart and sould in the guise of equating Arabism with Islam. It is the same kind of nonsense I see in many expatriate Lebanese Orthodox Christians who think that true Christianity comes in the guise of an Arab culture. I have news for you: Allah is NOT Arab (He is Intelligent!)

re ylh

You go dude! Keep speaking up for the real Pakistan shunned of this recent Arab imperialism. WHen you make Prime Minister, I`ll personally ask the Prime Minister in DHaka to make me High Commissioner in Islamabad (but pal you have gotta re-open the clubs and allow for some entertainment).May be then between you, I, and Saxena babu we will fix this Kashmir thing for good while the Asif N and adnan types will be still praying for the huouris! What do you say?

YLH, Asif

Ummat and Salaat are Maccan pronunciations whereas Ummah and Salah are Madina pronunciations. Why would it make any difference-call rose by any name.

Godot,

``Let Pakistan define its own Islam, and not Pakistan defined byIslam. Islam is too big to be defined only by the Arabs.``

Yes indeed, and thats why it is a Universal religion for it is ``flexible`` for all times and all lands! The Predominantly Muslim Nation born on 14th August 1947 can do the World a great favor by

creating this new, Modern version of Islam!

Pakistan Zindabad

Pakistani Islam Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

A N,

Yes indeed, saying that we should concentrate more on our language, is parroting of my masters. Indeed, the use of this word ``masters`` is nothing new... Hizb ul Tahrir use this word often ... calling Quaid e Azam M A Jinnah the pawn of the west and western powers his real ``masters``.

I dont like that word... I will instead call Arabs

your ``sires`` who sired you, and the one you love kissing up to and giving BJs.I stand for a sovereign Pakistan! You stand for Pakistanis being slaves of the Arabs! Shame on you.

We love Islam, but we dont like Arab Imperialism.

Pakistan Zindabad!

Next time, if you call anyone my master, I am going to come to UK, and personally shove something up your rear orifice so hard, that you will choke on it..... ``sod`` you and ``sod`` your Piety... now ``sod`` off!

Scout,

The words Ummet etc are from Arabic... but let us use ummet instead of Ummah... it has nothing to do with patriotism, but it sure as hell everything to do with our collective self respect... Are we destined to stand in rukooh forever us Arabs curse us out in Arabic?

Zahra. Hi. Assalamu alaykum-- I think this is the first time i have ever interacted with you directly!

I am afraid i have to disagree with you about Imam Hamza--I love the guy! He is a gift of Allah to this Ummah. I really believe that. As an orator also he is superb. But he is human and if he makes an occasional slip you should overlook it [if he made one!]. But I would be interesting in knowing what it is exactly he said that you found depressing and also what you asked him which caused him to respond in this manner. Personally, I think he is a godsend--we dont have too many traditional [as opposed to wahaabi or neo-wahaabi or modernist] scholars who can speak so eloquently in english and are fully versed in the traditional sciences. (The top scholars of the subcontinent are oceans of islamic knowledge but as most of them dont know english--and as most second generation muslims in the west cannot understand the level of urdu they speak in--their effectiveness is limited in those lands.[though i prefer their urdu speeches to anything else in english, Imam Hamza included!])

It is sad that you find him retrogressive, though you are entitled to your opinion. May I ask what is so retrogressive about him?

Khuda Hafiz

YLH--the words are arabic words and when we speak in english or write in english it is standard practise to transliterate them according to the arabic pronounciation NOT the Urdu one. Yes, if i am speaking in urdu or punjabi i too say ummat and namaz and roza instead of Ummah, salaH, Sawm etc. The Qur`an is an ARABIC Qur`an. It is not cultural hegemony [more parroting of your masters I see] but spiritually rewarding to drown in the love of Allah`s Messenger`s Deen and love everything associated with his blessed person sal allahu alayhi wa sallam--including the Best of Languages i.e. Arabic.

I am glad that you have taken up a cause against that priest of obscurantism .... :) His initials are opposite of mine HY instead of YH... what a coincidence... his views are totally opposite to mine too.

Thankyou

YLH

Re: ylh, #290

Right on, Yasser! Pakistani Islam is Pakistani Islam, not Arab Islam.

We of Pakistani origin don`t have much in common with those petty, ignorant, near-sighted, half-brained Arabs. The Arabs are sacrificing the future of their countries and their masses for the greed of the handful of the ruling elite. The Arab ruling classes have grabbed power and, in their extreme selfishness, making sure that they keep it that way to the detriment of their countries and their people. Their harmful way of doing things should not be copied by anyone, let alone Pakistan.

Let Pakistan define its own Islam, and not Pakistan defined by Islam. Islam is too big to be defined only by the Arabs.

ylh #290, ``My request to all Pakistanis on this board is to use Urdu religious words instead of Arabic....``

What the hell does measly little words have to do with patriotism?

``It is time that we threw the cloak of ``Arab

imperialism`` off of Pakistani Islam.``

By the way, in case you didn`t know, Urdu is a language stemming from various different languages including Persian, Arabic, as well as Sanskrit.

Next thing you know, you`ll be telling Pakistanis not to use the ``urdu`` words derived from Sanskrit because it has an ``Indian`` derivation.

You`re a bright kid but sometimes you say preposterous things (so do I :), so don`t feel alone.

Asif N.

I do not remember the post #, but there were some interesting thoughts in your following post.

``however there is a strange, and beautiful, phenomenon going on now in these countries..many of the educated second gen. youth (i.e. those with degrees or higher) are actually turning BACK to traditional islam under the influence of educated reverts (all thru sufism) like Abd al Hakim Murad in the UK, and Imam Hamza Yusuf and Shaikh Nuh Keller in the US. All these people are law-abiding model citizens who have achieved-or will prob. achieve the ``American dream`` (big house, good job with good salary, car etc. i.e. material wealth) and yet they are returning to Islam in numbers. So, maybe there IS hope yet for our next generation insha Allah...``


I`ll agree with your above observation on ``the beautiful phenomenon part. Regarding Humza Yousaf: he has an extremely depressing outlook with regressive views. [well, then this may be relative…] He constantly emphasizes that Muslims should leave the western world. Interestingly, the session I attended, was very confrontational and controversial. He neither responded to the concerns of his audience nor gave any concrete examples or substantive views. In my own zeal, I also raised my concern and was taken aback on the response I received. Well, then I was told, not to proceed in that direction: disturbing him with my question. And, I didn`t listen. Do I have any regrets? No, but I was seriously disappointed. Personally, I feel he gets carried away with his oratory skills and forgets his whereabouts.

Yasser:

Your request was very amusing. It takes us back to the question I`ve put forth, ``Do all the Pakistanis think alike?``

Yea? or Nay?

My gut feeling is: Nay!Nay!Nay!


PS: So if I say Namaz, I will continue with that. I am not obligated to say Salat for anyone and vice versa. What`s important? The action/message or the words? I think it is the western influence that is trying to overawe few of our naive Pakistani brothers + sisters and they have started replacing everything with a ``hae`` at the end. What else? I think it may be Humza Yousaf`s teachings that have added fuel to the fire. More on that later...

Adnan #274

I learn something new every day!

Every thing I have ever read--not too much, I admit, I do have better things to do--says that Deobandis were influenced by Wahab`s doctrines and Maududi was, of course, originally a Deobandi (which is where he received his initial Islamic education). He thought that he had transcended Deobandi thinking and his Jamaat-e-Islami is ideologically very close to Saudi Wahabism--which is why the Saudis funded him and the party so heavily.

So, friend Adnan, how exactly is Maududism and Wahabism so radically different that I cannot call Maududi at least a neo-Wahabi? I await enlightenment.

ROmair:

Thanks for the clarification and my apologies for the inadvertent harshness towards your points. It wasn`t very clear to me whether you were critiquing the article or were telling the readers what they needed to do. I did not find you addressing the writer anywhere and mistook it for a general note. That`s why you will find me questioning at the end, ``Who`s the audience?`` I guess, I should have asked this question early on.

On another note, I only pointed out the ``strange elements`` in that post, but there were quite a few good points that made sense.

Later,

krashid#279:

again u have the audacity to comment on things u have no idea abt.

this issue of the prophet(SAW) being hazir nazir is a ``ikhtilaafi`` issue amongst the vario8us sect, each has good pts in support of their views.

refer to:

1. Kanz ul Iman by Imam Ahmad Raza Khan

2. Anwaar ul Quran by Malik Ghulam Murtuza

for the two views.

it is based on a verse of the quran that the prophet will be a witness on his ummat on the day of judgement.

we already know the shallowness of ur study, why provide yet another example.

adnan

krashid#280:

bhai the only thing i can glean from ur posting is a lack of study of islamic history and shariah.

the prophet (SAW) on several occasions pardoned abdullah bin ubai as punishing him would have created disorder in the islamic state.

suggested reading:

1. Serat un nabi shibli

2. tarik e islam sayuti

3. tarikh ul khulufa nadwi

while u r at it read something by yousuf al qardawi on islamic penal system(he has many writings on this)

pl. refrain from commenting on subjects which u dont know anthing abt.

adnan

krashid:

dear br. rashid,

aoa

1. bhai sahab aap kay saath jamaatiyon nay kia kiya tha jis ka zakhm abhi tak taazaa hai balkay riss raha hai?? pl. enlighten us

2. khair mazaak aside, whatever it was if it was wrong they will very soon face their maker, being a part of jamiat will not save them.

3. if on the other hand it is a matter of bughz e myawiyyah (RA) then ..........

4. u have so far cited very personalized events in ur criticism of jamiat, this is def. not the way to seriously crticize and try to ammend wht u think is wrong (i beleive this is the only reason one shd criticise)

5. abt br. fuzair pl. take a look at his post, i m sure br. naqsbandi is aware of these things not so sure abt ``bhai fuzair``.

6. u made a very irresponsible statemant reg. jamaat whence u quoted from urdu ki aakhri kitaab

pl. read the manshoor of jamaat

try a little objectivity for a change.

and pl. hatred will simply get u nowhere.

wassalaam

adnan

6.

My request to all Pakistanis on this board is to use Urdu religious words instead of Arabic.... for example Ummet instead of Ummah, dawat instead of dawah, namaz instead of salaat, Maulana instead of Sheikh, etc....It is time that we threw the cloak of ``Arab imperialism`` off of Pakistani Islam.

Pakistan Zindabad!

krashid--if you do not know about a subject then please don`t open our mouth every time and comment on it. I am referring to the mas`ala of Hadhir wa Nadhir [nazir nazir] of Our Beloved Rasool sal allahu alayhi wa sallam. You do not even know what we MEAN by this term and yet you dismiss it straight away in an offensive manner.

Man, you are an ignoramus who thinks so much of himself with your silly comments all over the place about topics you dont know anything about.

Yet you are not man enough to admit ke ``i don`t know`` about a topic...

perhaps it is might fault for talking about subjects to those who are not ready for them. As a great man once said you should speak to people according to their level...

krashid #281 Good to see your post. Actually this interaction with Mr. Adnan (and earlier with Barister Amir) has been quite fruitful for me personally since it has served as a good cross-check to my understanding of the Quran.

I think it is too bad that so many people are put off from studying (not just reciting without understanding) the Quran since they think what the Jamaatis and maulvis say is based on the Quran. If they did, they would find the opposite is true. In addition, it is a joy to read the Quran and the simple, clear, beautiful, tender and consistent way in which the message of Allah is conveyed. Nothing like the message of hatred towards different groups of people that one routinely hears from the maulvis.

adnan #276 ``ur assertion that we dont need the Prophet for guidence and reading the quran ``

Please dont put words in my mouth and confuse the issue: I have been consistently emphasizing that you should listen to the message from Allah that the Prophet conveyed to mankind. The message is simple and clear. It is you who have been consistently detracting from this message by referring people to the religious books authored by men rather than the one we muslims believe was authored by Allah and conveyed to us by the Holy Prophet. In earlier interactions, I have quoted verses from the Holy Book at your request to support points I made, and it is you who have avoided accepting the clear implication of those verses.

I think I will end this discussion at this point since it is getting nowhere - if you refuse to heed the Quran itself then there is nothing anyone can do to convince you. I too regret some remarks I have made that were directed at you personally since that is wrong. And I wish you peace and blessings and guidance from Allah, just as I wish the same for myself and for every other individual even as I am appalled by the unwillingness of some of them to trust their God-given eyes and to use their God-given minds and the ease with which they follow other men.

ROmair,

What is going on? You end your posts with the name ``Umairr``. Have you changed your screen name?

If you are Umairr, how come youre not telling me if you are the same Umair Khan who started Chowk? Are you playing head games with this shrink?!:)

Siagalph 235#272

These are historical facts which you are telling.

Mudazallah Aleh Naqsbandi will listen to rhetoric only.

And I still believe Pakistan was created to implement Shariah. This experiment started in mid fifties will continue till the end of Pakistan.

And Naqsbandi will say. ``Woh To Pakistan Khatum Ho Gaya Warna Shariah To Nafiz Ho sakti Hai``.

I am afraid your country is to small to flirt with the experiment of Shariah instead of alleviating the plight of your people.

And as Ibn-e-Insha said ``In olden times the less was the teritory the bigger the ``Alqab`` with kings name. I see the same thing in Mudazalleh Aleh Naqsbandi style.

Adnan 672 #274

Bhai Fuzair Pe Kiyun Garam Hote Ho.

Read the post of Naqshbandi. He wrote it. Fuzair was only responding to it.

Or even Naqsbandi is unawaqe of Wahhabism and Modudiism.

Are we going to witness another cycle of throwing people out of the CIRCLE of Islam.

As Ibn-e-Insha said. ``Pehle Is Mein Logon Ko Dakhil Karte The. Ab Nikalte Hain``.

May be this is a form of family planning.

The gretest irony is that there are more than one billion Muslims in world and most of them are out of fold of Islam, if so called scholars of different sects are to be believed.

RShivsena#

When you evolve from monkey to ape let me know.

By your post you appear to be going in a negative evolution with less survival advantage.

Waise Yeh Buhat Accha Hai Kai Tu Musalman Nahin. Tujhe Kaun Sambhalta.

Waise Is Khushi Ki Khabar Ke Baad Ke Tu Musalman Nahin Taleban Ki But-Shikni Jaez Hai.

ROmair #234

I don`t see your logic.

You probably belief in a totally good or totally bad philosophy.

The inning Imran declared was on the last day and there was no possibility of any result of the match and there was no result. Score of 300 is a very great achievement and both Imran knew and Miandad knew this very well. And both acted according to their ``Zarf``.

Also writing a best-seller in no way puts a person in the category of Highly educated. If today Monica Lewinsky writes a book it will be best-seller. Or ``Inkishafat`` by body guard of Clinton might be best-seller.

Did I ever in any of my post told that SKMH is not a good work. But who are the real philanthropist.

And I agree with your last point. Pakistani leaders should be either choosen by military or leave it on auto pilot. This is the best descripion you have given regarding the condition of Pakistan. And I totally agree with you on this.

Our leaders including Z.A.Bhutto as compared to Mujib. Nawaz Sharif as compared to Benazir and Benazir as compared to Nawaz Sharif and again Nawaz Sharif as compared to Benazir were all chosen by Military with ``HEAVY MANDATES``. And Z.A.Bhutto was unrealistic, but both Benazir and Nawaz Sharif realized it soon and that is why they knew where the real power is and what their job is. And don`t worry future leaders elected by Military will realize very soon what their job is. ``Khao Aur Khane Do``

TAhmed #236

Again you Sir have hit the nail on head.

As some sage said ``Islam Naal Ki Lena Hai``

They have their own agenda whether it is in accordance with Koran or not does not matter.

And I fully agree with you that sectarian killing is done by sectarians themselves.

And this agency thing is a Jamati excuse.

I will tell you a good incidence of Jamati excuse.

During a Jihad against Kafirs meaning National Student Federation, two Jamati`s opened the head of NSF supporter by iron rod. An FIR was lodged. The Jamati were telling their brainless supporters that FIR is wrong and those two Jamatis have not done it. A brainless was telling me this. I asked him. O.K those two Jamati`s have not done this. But it cannot happen by itself. So tell me who has done this. His mouth was open as if taken by surprise. But did not answer.

So don`t worry it is called Jamati politics and they think this is the real Islam.

TAhmed #257

In reply to Adnan.

Have you noticed the pure Islamic way of pardoning the killer.

They consider themselves next to God and ``Ummati`` of Rasool who said that ``By God if Fatima would have stolen, I would have cut her hand. Nations before you were destroyed because they used to pardon your powerful and punish the weak``.

Sir In Ko In Ke Islam Pe Chor Dein.

Jawab To Khuda Ko Dena Hai. In Charion Ko Nahin.

Asif Naqsbandi #251

Bhai Yeh Hazir Nazir Rasool Kia Hai.

At least spare us your B.S which you are thinking as Islam.

Godot #261

Your point is well taken.

A lesson in politics. If the people are hungry, have no clothes etc, give them the task of demolishing the idols.

By the way if Afghans were jews, they would secretly sell these idols for money.

But- Farooshi. Like Aslaha Faroshi by world powers.

Sadna:

aoa

U shd at least bother to read the other persons postings properly before commenting on them

1. I never condoned the destruction of the statues, I merely pointed out wht the Taliban possibly made the basis of this decree.

Secondly, where are adnan and Naqshbandi listed ......

2. I never question anyones faith i simply put forward wht i and the majority of muslims have considered islam to be for the last 1400 yrs. This info. i have gathered by reading works by muslim jurists and scholars and also a few orientalists the balanced ones .

3. Pl. read various comments on the blasphemy thread

to see who questions the faith of whom

4. And try to mantain objectivity in ur postings.

wassalaam



adnan

tahmed:

``Please be serious. If you dont have any proof, be ....``

My friend the kind of proof u demand i do not have, but i was a part of a student movement and i know the ways the intell. works, ull have to either accept this assertion as my statement which is true otherwise as i said not ur kind of proof. btw how much proof of the kind u demand has been gathered abt MNS and BBs crimes

Who will conduct out the bloodshed, and whose blood will be shed? The man......

My pt here is simply to avoid a greater evil things could have been worked out, he deserved to be hanged no doubt but look at wht has started

`` and that just makes you dishonest man -

such dishonest....``



then u write

``try to understand the Quran with an open mind, not one befogged by politics.``

& then

``I hope you will refrain from passing personal judgements (and insults) of this kind and stick to the issues.``

I could quote numerous instances from ur prev. postings whn u wrote something i pasted above

So i try not to pass judgements but u have been doing that constantly. btw i do apologize if i u found my comments in bad taste but it is nonetheless wht i beleive ur problem to be.

So bck to the issues The basic difference i see is ur assertion that we dont need the Prophet for guidence and reading the quran and interpreting it in any way we like is the foundation of Islam

I disagree, I did post some verses from the quran on this in a previous post.

I also advised u to read Maudoodis ``Sunnat Ki Ainee Haysiyat`` on this issue.

wassalaam

adnan

Godot,

#26?

Haha! cool your jets, pal. Are you still smarting from being Tahmed`s bakra? Happens to the best of us:)

I must say, eventhough you flunked tahmed`s quiz, I`m impressed! You asked me a question & even took my answer from my mouth! What clairvoyance!

Dont worry, my turds will only be reserved for my best friend, Rshivsena. Er,for the record, HE destroyed Babri Masjid.

Saxena,

Tell your friend Godot how we love the hatred for each other. Man, if you EVER said anything nice about me, I`ll leave Chowk in embarrassment forever. Now, dont be getting any ideas!

Fuzair:

My friend

1. DO u know wht wahabism is?

2. Pl. throw some light on Maudoodi`s works where he aligns himself with the views of Mohd. bin Abd al Wahab

3. From ur posting it seems that u have neither read Maudoodi nor Wahabism (as u call it).

4. Ppl. like u have great courage to comment on others views without an iota of knowledge

adnan

Dear Naqsbandi:

AOA

Br. u r indeed doing a great job defending the faith against these secular anti islam elements who pay lip service to islam but when it comes to obeying allahs commandments they r the slaves of their ``nafs``

My only appeal to u is not to insult other religious figures, u may have ur differences with them (maybe justified ones), but this will just give ammo to these idiots who may argue with each other for hours over petty things but if two ulema differ then its ``look at ur islam, look at the maulvis etc``.

And do continue writing

wassalaam

adnan

re asif n`s

``...if their millions of mureeds hadn`t voted for the Quaid Pakistan would never have come into being. ``

The Quaid was never up for direct election. As for the last elections to the provincial legisltures that were held prior to Pakistan, let`s see:

A. Punjab returned a non-Muslim League majority

B. The Frontier had a Congress ministry

C. Baluchistan and its affiliated States did not have legislative elections.

D. Sind returned a Muslim League ministry

E. Bengal returned a razor thin Muslim League ministry that was to fall at the very next election in 1954.

Now then, who were these murids voting for? Horror of horrors, don`t say that `kafir` Khan Ghaffar Khan!

Sir, Pakistan was not created by your mullahs and their murids any more than it was created by the House of Commons in London. In fact Pakistan was fought for and created by men and women who dreamt and sacrificed it all for the hope of a modern, progressive, free country where Muslims would be safe (here is the distinction you guys conveniently ignore after the death of the Quaid). I know it: all my four grandparents were staunch Muslim Leaguers and dictrict/provincial office bearers (my late grandmother was the secy of the Delhi Muslim Women League). They left everything but the clothes on their back to move to Pakistan. And none of them ever voted for the Jamaat, the JUI, or the assorted bigot class during their entire blessed lives. Don`t tell me who created Pakistan!

Dear Godot:

Don`t you think there is a difference between state-sponsored act vs. act by a mob? Any sensible Indian will be ashamed at the destruction of the Babri Masjid. But can you imagine India is tearing down Tajmahal because it was built by a muslim emperor?

Has Taliban finished making their country before they are set out to destroy? Are all the war-widows given job? Or are they allowed to commit mass suicide. You are one of the very sensible chowkies, so it feels bad when you get involved in futile argument.

Hope you do not mind, and best regards.

re jay

``Join your ambassador with the begging bowl, from dawn of today. ``

That`s a very ill-mannered thing to say about one of the most decent, intelligent and suave diplomats ever produced by Pakistan. Dr Lodhi is only engaging in well known conventions of diplomacy even if the Jafri write-up is true.

re adnan

``Shariah is the Islamic Law. You says it is useless now, yet u profess a deep love for religion. ``

I have little to add, as I mentioned earlier, about the religious laws of communities. The Shariah between individual Muslims is fine and the state has no need to enforce it than the it does to enforce the Roman Catholic prohibition against divorce. It is the Shariah and the catechism and the talmudic law enforced by the dictates of a state that is repulisive, repugnant, and contrary to a modern polity.

As for my religion, it is a matter between me and my Maker. Yes, I do have a deep Love for Him. And such Love is entirely independent of what you and the various folks with outlandish titles (shaikh, mufti, allama, ayatollah etc) think about me. After all, I know this for a fact (and your writings show that you probably are unsure) that on the Last Day, I`ll be judged only by a jury of One as will be every other man and woman. And trust me that jury of One does not include the Sheikh of al-Azhar, Imam Ghazzali, Pope Pius X, or even the petty Pirs that dot the Sindhi landscape.

re asif n`s

``Sigalph. I`m afraid you are wrong. To rule by quran and sunnah is necessary according to Allah (in His Qur`an) , His Messenger [sal allahu alayhi wa sallam] and all of the scholars of this great Ummah from the time of the Companions to today whether we like it or not. So you might not agree but it doesn`t make it any less not necessary.``

And I believe that Allah appointed you his Special Rapporteur to tell us what He wants to be done in parliament today, right? The Roman Catholic Pope (whose predecessors said the same kind of nonsense your sheikhs are spewing about a kingdom of the righteous) thinks he is the vox dei (Voice of God) and you and your shaeikhs think each of them is. Apparently the concept of `shirk` is as alien to you as to the Pope and his reverend bishops. I have news for your types: neither the Pope nor you nor the rest of your reverend sheikhs, muftis, and maulanas are partners with Allah no matter how loud your claim is. When I want to communicate with my Maker, I`ll need only his Grace not the crutches peddled by the petty merchants of religion.

Oh, what ``Ummah`` are you referring to? The one which keeps all its money drawing interest in New York banks while the poorer Muslim countries suffer a lack of capital? Or the one which calls Muslims from South Asia ``miskeen`` and ``ajnabi``? Or perhaps the one which pays white foreigners double and triple the salary that their equally qualified brown Muslim brother make? The ``Ummah``- a more non-existent social concept has not been devised by the most evil of minds. Give me a break, brother!

Naqshbandi

You are absolutely devoid of Historical Knowledge.... Quaid e Azam said, in Dehli responding to a resolution by Dr Kazi to make the future constitution of Pakistan based on Hukoomat e Illahya, that will amount to ``a vote of censure on every leaguer``.

Yasser Hamdani

First of all Prophet Muhammad has gone down in History as a great Arab Nationalist, lets not forget that!Secondly, The ulema you mentioned, jumped on to the Pakistan bandwagon, because they could see their hegemony ending.

Jinnah made it clear that Pakistan would be Modern Democracy with sovereignty resting in the people regardless of religion caste or creed (Doon Campbell 21st May 1947), and vetoed resolutions calling for the future constitution of Pakistan to be based on the Quran (Dehli Muslim League Session

1943)....

This was repeated countless times, and I can provide you with exact details... Now in Pakistan we will take the lead from Quaid e Azam (who was by the way an admirer of the Zindiq Ataturk .. read Patna address 1938) not some Chishti or Naqshbandi sheikh.

Pakistani or Indo-Muslim Nationalism, like Turk Nationalism, is not ``Watan`` but ``Millet``. As a matter of fact Iqbal quoted Ziya Gokalp many times in his book ``Reconstruction of religious thought in Islam``.... Millet is not Ummet! Millet is true Nationhood, as defined by Gokalp and followed by Iqbal. Watan is ethno-Nationalism.

Iqbal said before he died ``Ask Muslims to pray for Kemal Ataturk and Muhammad Ali Jinnah, because Muslims still need them``. It is quite clear that to Iqbal ``Secular Nationalist Ataturk`` was not a Zindiq. You people use Iqbal to your own benefit,

but you are nothing but liars.

Read ``Reconstruction of Religious Thought``... You can believe in your outdated ideas, but dont .. and I repeat... Dont ever dare to associate the pristine names of Jinnah and Iqbal to your nonsense.

Yasser Hamdani

PS Next time you call me a Mushrik, remember you are being one too by the virtue of equating yourself to God by deciding my fate.

RE: harami hindoos on Taleban and Buddha

Are taleban doing anything worse to Buddha`s statues than what your leaders (Advani et. al.) did to the Babri Mosque?

Can`t imagine a lower life form than the bay sharam dhoti clads.

Re: Asif Naqshbandi, #263

``What is more important--being a Pakistani or being a Muslim?``

Any sane person, including Jinnah, would say: a Pakistani.

``this kind of narrow minded nationalism has resulted in the muslim umaah being divided amongst itself.``

When was the last time the ummah was united (leave that little tribe at the time of the Prophet out)?

``We [Pakistan] were created to be an islamic state``

That`s the core of the fateful debate. For some, including Jinnah, Pakistan was meant to be a homeland for the Muslims of India, not an Islamic State.

Re: Asif Naqshbandi #263

Quite right. Especially in the Punjab, the Pirs/Sajda-Nashins/other-mumbo-jumbo-artists deserted the Unionists en masse in 1946 to back the Muslim League precisely because they were afraid of the headway being made by Maudoodi and his ilk among the lower-middle classes in the urban areas. Don`t forget, in Maudoodi`s version of Islam, the mumbo-jumbo artists are as great an evil as Mr. Jinnah (ham eater and whiskey drinker that he was). However, your Sufis did not back him because he was going to impose the Sharia, they backed him because he was an alternative to Maudoodi`s wahabism. They knew that he was never going to persecute them if he won power. Don`t forget, these same people backed the Unionists to the hilt until 1946 and the Unionists were never going to impose any sort of Islam anywhere!

YLH,

you have made nationalism into a ``god`` and you worship it. What is more important--being a Pakistani or being a Muslim?! It is this kind of nationalism which you so emotionally believe in which our beloved Nabi sal allahu alayhi wa sallam warned of and even a `modernist` like Alama Iqbal has warned of it; see his nazm on wataniyyat.

this kind of narrow minded nationalism has resulted in the muslim umaah being divided amongst itself.

Shar`iat is shar`iat whether you agree with it or not. And we are ordered to rule by it as Muslims.

Not to ``modernise`` it in the name of pragmatism just so the kuffar will love you.

And please,don`t use the fact that i am not living in pakistan against me-- rutgers was not in Lahore last time i checked...

We should be worried about the plight of the Muslims WHEREEVER THEY ARE IN THE WORLD. So as a Muslim (and a Pakistani-i was born in pakistan) it is my right to worry and care about my country and the direction it should take.

BTW, it is an historical fact that without the support of the sunni ulama (barelvis) pakistan would never have come into being. Especially the sufi shaykhs -notably the Chishti Shaykhs, Hazrat Pir Sayyid Jama`at Ali Shah Naqshbandi (quds sirruhu) and Hazrat Pir Mihr Ali Shah Qadiri were instrumental campaigned tirelessly for the creation of Pakistan and if their millions of mureeds hadn`t voted for the Quaid Pakistan would never have come into being. Hazrat Pir Sayyid Jama`at Ali Shah ORDERED his murids to vote for pakistan saying he would not read the janazah of any one of his murids who didn`t. He, may Allah sanctify his secret, alone had 1 million or more murids throughout the breadth and depth of hindustan. And all these sunni ulama were clear that they were voting for an ISLAMIC Pakistan. The evidence is in many books. For those of your elk, one by Gilmartin, and another by an indian lady scholar in the USA called Usha Sanyal (who did her phd on this) (Devotional Islam and British Politics: Ahmed Raza KHan and His MOvement) are books u should read.

(Typically, it was the Wahabis like Maududi and most of the deobandis who opposed pakistan and called the quaid a ``kafir e azam``) Do you think these great Sunni ulama and shaykhs would have voted for pakistan if they wanted it to be secular? (It was Hazrat Pir Sayyid Jama`at Ali Shah rahmatullah alayhi who gave the Quaid the idea of having two flags, a green one and a black one (?) and using them in his campaign, asking people which do you want to vote for ``islam or kufr``? (ref: Seerat e Amir e Millat).

So there. We were created to be an islamic state and we will insha Allah become one. As Prof. Tahirul Qadri once put it Qur`an and Sunnah is higher than any Constitution...

Zahra #239:

You are seeing things in my reply, that do not exist there.

If someone expresses their opinion in a reply, it is their right. One can agree or disagree with it. But their is no reason to go beyond that. When someone publishes it as an article, then they are requesting a critique of their stance. That is different from a reply. Otherwise why publish it on an open forum.

``People should get your blessings before they do something for their country Or should they enroll in your database as the ones who`ve done something. Pathetic!``

Could you point out where I stated that people should get my permission for doing anything (if you cannot point it out and have just made an incorrection deduction, then I hope you will admit it. Incorrect deductions are a waste of everyone`s time, and lead to useless arguments). You have assumed this on your own, and have then come to the conclusion that it is pathetic. In essence, you have put words in my mouth, and have reached a conclusion based on the words you put in my mouth, in the first place. I cannot defend anything that I never stated.

``Well, you can certainly have rules and roles defined for yourself, but you should refrain from telling others - By doing that, you are negating your very own sermon. Care to check on consistency?)....Again, you are suggesting what they should or they should not do. This whole post sounded pretty damn hypocritical than anything else.``

You have taken this out of context, also. I think no one should go to Pakistan from North America, and preach to the students in universities, regarding their (students) own problems. This is an opinion, I have expressed, on an open forum. I would not state this opinion to a group of students or to a gathering in which I had some position of authority (like as a lecturer). I would stick to my area of expertise.

There is a big difference between expressing one`s opinion in a discussion, and preaching from a position of authority. A discussion is between equals, and thus one cannot preach. In a lecture or presentation, the lecturer/presenter is in a position of leadership, and is thus the center of attraction. People are expecting him/her to tell them something they do not know, and they are more likely to follow his/her advice. This is specially true when the audience is composed of young students. In that type of a forum, one should stick to what one knows, or where one lives. So it is one thing to discuss the solutions of Pakistan, it is another to try to preach those solutions from a position of authority, when one is unwilling to live in Pakistan himself/herself.

There is also a big difference between critiquing a piece that someone has put on a forum for critique, and attempting to critique a critique (reply). I am doing the former you are doing the later.

Your use of exclamation marks, and words like, ``damn`` seem to indicate your emotions while writing this reply. However, I am not going to make a deduction about your intentions, and will stick to the words you have stated. I hope you will stop making deductions about my intentions, and stick to the words I have written.

I have just expressed my views regarding the article, assuming that is why the writer placed the article on this website. If you don`t agree with my reply, that is your choice. It`s a free world. However, please do not attempt to read my mind, or put words in my mouth. And please remember that if you use words like, ``pathetic, ``damn,`` ``hyprocricy,`` so frequently (not to mention the generous use of exclamation marks), others could stoop to this level, and use similar words against you, as well.

A simple, ``I do not agree with what you are stating, because I think you are practicing exactly what you are accusing the author of`` would have sufficed. I hope that is not asking for too much.

In any case, you have completely missed the point I was tyring to make in my reply.

Umairr

adnan #248 AOA

``1. Proof: Well how were they organized, armed and supported financially ISI? IB? etc etc etc etc``

Please be serious. If you dont have any proof, be honest and say so. You are just presenting questions as if they were answers.

2. ``The MYC had brought the two sides together before the hanging of Haq Nawaz some sort of settlement could have been reached this was communnicated to the government but in their great wisdom they decided to carry out the execution which (I hope I m wrong) will lead to further bloodshed. My point the est. does not want peace. ``

Who will conduct out the bloodshed, and whose blood will be shed? The man was a convicted killer who was hanged after due process. While the death of any man is an occasion for sadness, what is the alternative? To allow killing of innocent people to go unchallenged by society? Society has a right to defend itself from killers.

``Ofcourse i cannot give u tape recordings etc. but u seem to be a person who can read b/w the lines.``

I dont read between lines - if I dont know, I say I dont know. You can reach any convenient conclusion you like otherwise, and that just makes you dishonest man - it does change the fact that you dont know.

``2. I disagree on ur point that trying to get into power is inherently wrong. ``

Getting into power is not inherently wrong. The question is whether you do that through violence or through due process. You are advocating violence, I am sorry to see. The mullahs ran unsuccessfully for elections for 40 years. When they routinely were rejected by the people, they changed their tune and starting saying the democracy is haram. What kind of individuals are these? Can such dishonest and power hungry individuals be given the same respect that one would normally give to a human being?

``The Prophet initially tried to convince the leaders of Qureish (recall Suarah e Abas and its shaan e nazool), ``

Is there someone among the mullahs who claims to be the Prophet`s successor? If you respected the Quran, you would give examples from there, rather than giving your interpretation of how the Holy Prophet`s actions: the Holy Prophet would be appalled by the way you people have ignored the message he was charged with delivering. His entire message is about Allah and the Judgement Day, while you only go by the way the Prophet is supposed to have lived your life.

``Btw u r not the first to put forward such arg.``

This is not relevant. Whether one man says something or a million - you have to reach your own conclusions based on the Quran. Focus on the simple advice I keep giving you: try to understand the Quran with an open mind, not one befogged by politics.

``My pont was simply to contradict ur assertion that the Mullahs do not do any social work and simply want power. This is incorrect and I gave u a first hand exp. to prove this pt.``

That is good, and I said so in my previous post. I hope you will agree that there is a lot more that mullahs, and all the rest of us, could do. Personally, I would welcome it if the mullahs tried, e.g. to visit the sick and the poor (rather than hanging around the Pajeros and gunmen of the would-be pharaohs of Pakistan); organized community efforts to improve the quality of life for the average citizen, and security from crime in our neigborhoods; spoke out for the peasants who are oppressed by the landlords; and tried to help our young people to get inspiration from the Quran in order to grow up to be honest in their dealings, interested in science and learning, true to their word, respectful of others and in awe of no man, and able to judge when a man is living according to the instructions of the Quran and when he is not and knowing to shun such men. But these are things that the mullahs are by and large not concerned with.

``4. My wish is also that u accept Islam as it has been acceted for the last 1400 yrs and ...``

We are expected to accept Islam the way it was conveyed to us via the Holy Prophet. Not to accept Islam the way it has been implemented (for better or worse) through the ages. As I said to sattar2: the Quran says that we should follow the true path even if it is different from what even our parents believe in, while remaining respectful and loving to our parents. The beliefs of the Ahmadis and of the mullahs are not very different, even though they hate one another. The only real diffence is that Ahmadis are not a political threat to Pakistan and the mullahs are.

``I also think u r sincere in ur views though misled being too impressed by wetern ideals (maybe a legacy of the Raj)``

I hope you will refrain from passing personal judgements (and insults) of this kind and stick to the issues.

``I pray to Allah to lead us to the rt path.``

I join you in this prayer. Ameen.

Re: shankar, #253

``Taliban`s behaviour in destroying historical/religious artefacts is disgusting. It is more disgusting that they are doing it in the name of religion.``

I find it quite amusing that Babri Masjid was not mentioned in your post. Is that because, for you, those responsible for the destruction of the Masjid are more enlightened than the Talebans? Is it something not worth mentioning? Or is it that you conveniently forgot it?

Now, since I mentioned it, I bet your next post will denounce the destruction of the Masjid, and you`ll call those responsible for it ``zealots`` because you`ll try to put up a face of a moderate and reasonable person. Then -- and it is quite important -- you`ll try to get back at me. Since your vocabulary seems to be limited to a level of an ignorant and an illiterate (witness your post #245 to RSaxena), you will use similar adjectives in trying to describe me! Now, pick those ``turd`` up (you seem to be quite good at it) and start hurling them!

Asif Naqshbandi,

I am sorry, but the enforcement of the laws said to be divinely revealed is a chimerical ideal. If cutting off peoples` hands, and giving women half the rights of men, is what you mean by Shariat, then I am afraid you dont understand the saliant features of Pakistan`s creation, the two nation theory, or for that matter the working of a Modern state.

Now dont tell me that all of Prophet`s dictums are applicable in the Modern Age, because in saying that you are making a mockery of Muslim beliefs, the Islamic idealism and the religion of Islam itself. Prophet`s most admirable quality is his pragmatism, and what you are suggesting is directly opposed to the Pragmatism....

I dont care what you believe in, and how you want to see Pakistan, because I dont need to care about a Tanzeem e Islami theorist living in the UK.

Pakistan was not created for any religious doctrine or any such thing. The Muslim of South Asia constituted a nation according to the paradigm of Modern Nationalism and not on the basis of 7th century Arabia. Their unification as a nation depended on Historical antecedents, and common religio-social beliefs.

If you read the Lahore Resolution, you get a clear picture of the Muslim Demand. Postulate 4 makes it abundantly clear, that the Secular Muslim Majority State(s) were to have clear constitutional safeguards for their Minorities, whereas the Secular Hindu Majority state was to have clear constitutional safeguards for their Muslim Minority.

Ziya Gokalp in his book, ``the Principles of Turkism``, extends the follwoing definition of ``Nationhood``...

``...since race has no relationship to social traits, neither can it have any with nationality,

which is the sum total of social characteristics ...social solidarity rests on cultural unity, which is transmitted by means of education and therefore has no relationship with consanguinity...a nation is not a racial or ethnic or geographic or political or volitional group but one composed of individuals who share a common language, religion, morality or aesthetics, that is to say, who have received the same education.``

Indeed, taking into account this definition we can clearly see why Jinnah was so adamant in making Urdu the sole National Language of Pakistan.Both the Kurdish issue, and the creation of Bangladesh are infront of us as evidence of Gokalp`s enlightened vision.

So you understand the creation of Pakistan has nothing to do with the creation of a theocracy like the kind you want. It was a natural consequence of a Historical problem, and I know I am going to be attacked by our Indian Friends because of this, but I can only offer them another book to consult as reference....

``Pakistan or Partition of India by BR Ambedkar

1945 Thacker and company Bombay``

Yasser Latif Hamdani

Rsuxena #240, ``I am not Muslim.``

Thank God for that. And for the respect of the Hindu community, I hope you`re not Hindu either.

I know devout Hindus who respect other people`s religions and cultures, very different from your

poisonous rantings.

Rsuxena #255, ``Why are you supporting the Taliban in this act? ``

Gawd you`re stupid. Yes I`m supporting the Taleban. I just sent a box of TNT to Osama Bin Laden. Hope this confession gives you a moment of premature pleasure.

Re: Asif

``Allah is Perfect and He created His Messenger perfect too. How dare we then have our own opinions! Astaghfirullah. Remember the Quran says it is not befitting for believers to have their own opinion when Allah and His Messenger have decided on a matter....``

You said it dude!! How dare anyone have his own opinions! Just because evolution created brains, doesn`t mean they have to be used! Allah said so!

``My wish is also that u accept Islam as it has been accepted for the last 1400 yrs``

Someone commented to me: re Taliban`s idol breaking, how did the idols survive 1400 years of Islam? Was it not true Islam which was being followed all those 1400 years? Why try to have it both ways?

Secondly, where are adnan and Naqshbandi listed as interceders in the Holy books? Just the fact that they go around questioning others faith qualifies them ? This is a win-win situation, as long as you raise a question about others (or better still, pass judgement on them), you can corner the the market and escape being judged yourself.

Sadhana

Re: Spout

You should read these words from Humsab carefully.

``They may read Tahir Mirza’s Article in today’s Dawn. Commenting on Taliban and their fervour to break everything that is considered pre-Islamic, Tahir Mirza has observed, “If we won`t have the gumption to speak out, we shouldn`t mind if others do.” Chowksters who support Taleban in this latest pursuit may like to use his advice.``

Why are you supporting the Taliban in this act?

Stop the Genocide in Pakistan.

{{Three shot dead as religious riots erupt in Pakistan

PESHAWAR, Pakistan, March 1 (AFP) -

At least three Shiite Muslims were killed and one critically wounded as gunmen opened fire in a market in the northwestern Pakistani city of Hangu on Thursday, police said.

The incident, a day after the execution of a Sunni extremist for the 1990 murder of an Iranian diplomat, triggered violent demonstrations in the city and exchanges of gunfire between Shiites and Sunnis, they said.

The assailants emerged from a van and sprayed bullets at a crowded market before escaping.

Rampaging crowds of Shiites and Sunnis torched shops and vehicles and exchanged gunfire. At least six shops and several vehicles were set on fire, police said.

``The situation is still tense and the authorities have rushed paramilitary troops to quell the rioting,`` senior home ministry official Manzur Ahmed said.}}

scout,

I have to agree with cherym on this issue. Taliban`s behaviour in destroying historical/religious artefacts is disgusting. It is more disgusting that they are doing it in the name of religion.

What if Egypt turned fundo & started destroying the pyramids & the sphinx? What if Spain turned Christian fundo & destroyed the Alambra or Greeks ,Italians & Mexicans turned fundo & destroyed the artefacts of their preChristan history?

Before the dominance of monothesim in the world, ``pagan`` civilisations flourished in several parts of the world. Whether people believe in their philosophy today or not is immaterial. History is the hertiage left behind for ALL humanity--regardless of their present day religion.

I hear Pakistan takes great care of sikh & hindu shrines. They are preserving the Indus Valley & Harrapan artefacts. Its as much a part of your heritage as ours . Kudos to those Pakistanis who do that.

I think what the taleban is doing is disgusting and a BIG deal--regardless of what religion you belong to.

Hassan

After your visit to pakistan, I do hope that you are back in the US, and probably the best form of help you can give to your country is to lobby for the `forgiveness`. Join your ambassador with the begging bowl, from dawn of today. What has come to that great nation, the product of TNT, the vision of jinnah, turned to ashes in the jihadic flame.

The question of `debt forgiveness`

By A.B.S. Jafri

SOME reports from Washington have recently quoted our ambassador there as seeking ``debt forgiveness.`` What exactly this means is ominously unclear. Does it amount to our ambassador going about in Washington, hands folded, presenting Pakistan as guilty, and pleading for ``forgiveness.``

Or, it may mean that the Pakistan envoy is going around with hands extended, begging for alms. In either case, this should be an intolerable situation for a Pakistani diplomat abroad.

hamidm....okay if you are a Muslim why do you mock islam so much, especially the qur`anic injunctions and the hadith which do not agree with your modern post-modern, western, values? It is farz to believe that every zabar, zer, pesh and damma and every harf of the Qur`an is the uncreated and literal word of Allah. to mock or deny or make fun of even one ayat is absolute kufr. this is not my view or that of the modern scholars but of all muslims since the time of our beloved, immaculate, hazir nazir, infallible, Prophet alayhisalatosalaam. I do not know much about you but it seems evident you haven`t learnt from traditional islamic sources. please read an elementary text on islamic aqeedah...try Imam Ghazzali`s opening book of the Ihya...or Imam Tahawi`s aqidah of ahle sunnah w`al jama`aH. That lists what it is necessary to believe to be a Muslim.

May Allah guide us all to the sirat e mustaqeem.ameen bi jaahi sayyid al alameen.

YLH--all those things can only be achieved if islamic shariat is enforced in practise. Remember, we have to accept what Allah and His Messenger have told us EVEN IF IT MIGHT DISAGREE WITH OUR EGOs.

Allah is Perfect and He created His Messenger perfect too. How dare we then have our own opinions! Astaghfirullah. Remember the Quran says it is not befitting for believers to have their own opinion when Allah and His Messenger have decided on a matter....

Sigalph. I`m afraid you are wrong. To rule by quran and sunnah is necessary according to Allah (in His Qur`an) , His Messenger [sal allahu alayhi wa sallam] and all of the scholars of this great Ummah from the time of the Companions to today whether we like it or not. So you might not agree but it doesn`t make it any less not necessary.

hamidm....okay if you are a Muslim why do you mock islam so much, especially the qur`anic injunctions and the hadith which do not agree with your modern post-modern, western, values? It is farz to believe that every zabar, zer, pesh and damma and every harf of the Qur`an is the uncreated and literal word of Allah. to mock or deny or make fun of even one ayat is absolute kufr. this is not my view or that of the modern scholars but of all muslims since the time of our beloved, immaculate, hazir nazir, infallible, Prophet alayhisalatosalaam. I do not know much about you but it seems evident you haven`t learnt from traditional islamic sources. please read an elementary text on islamic aqeedah...try Imam Ghazzali`s opening book of the Ihya...or Imam Tahawi`s aqidah of ahle sunnah w`al jama`aH. That lists what it is necessary to believe to be a Muslim.

May Allah guide us all to the sirat e mustaqeem.ameen bi jaahi sayyid al alameen.

YLH--

sigalph235

Anybody who disagrees with you is not Islam-bashing unless you have started believing yourself to be Islam.........

1. Agreed. But my friend u were the one who wrote ``that shariah is incnsistant with todays .....``

Shariah is the Islamic Law. You says it is useless now, yet u profess a deep love for religion.

I long ago decided not to get into this typical Islamist trick where they want Islamic absolutism but disown everybody who implements it because....

Would u agree then all those leaders of the muslim countries who discouraged islam were secular. Ill then give u some wonderful examples of ur SECULAR MUSLIM LEADER (maybe lets start with BB at home)

PLease save me the Turkey rap. Turkey is far more pluralistic than Afghanistan and SUdan and any other Islamist regime and moving further towards ....

No Sir, it is not. Any group whose ideals are against the govt. enforced ones is well.. ``outlawed``. Rafah a case in point. This is a recurring phenomenon, need I remind u of Seattle and the WTO summit etc etc etc.

Do you have a couple of hours?

Well just the basic flaws would greatly increase my not too good understanding od Islam.

I taught liberal arts not theology. I must refer you to your favorite mullah......

When u criticize something u must have some sort of a grip on it. Pl. do quote ur sources.

Regards

Adnan

tahmed:

AOA

1. Proof: Well how were they organized, armed and supported financially ISI? IB? etc etc etc etc

The administration knows how well armed these groups are but does nothing abt it.

The MYC had brought the two sides together before the hanging of Haq Nawaz some sort of settlement could have been reached this was communnicated to the government but in their great wisdom they decided to carry out the execution which (I hope I m wrong) will lead to further bloodshed. My point the est. does not want peace.

Ofcourse i cannot give u tape recordings etc. but u seem to be a person who can read b/w the lines.

2. I disagree on ur point that trying to get into power is inherently wrong.

The Prophet initially tried to convince the leaders of Qureish (recall Suarah e Abas and its shaan e nazool),

then he went to various tribes at the time of Hajj not only to preach but he asked them to embrace Islam accept the rule of Allah and in return he promised them Jannah,

after the est. of islamic state in medinah Makkah was taken by force and other expeditions were sent as well

this policy was cont. by the Caliphs until the whole of Arab was under the control of Islamic State.

Btw u r not the first to put forward such arg.

This APOLOGETIC line has quite some history in the sub continent and i disagree with all those (Syed Ahmad, Ameer Ali, etc. then Pervez etc after est. of Pakistan)

3. My point was simply to contradict ur assertion that the Mullahs do not do any social work and simply want power. This is incorrect and I gave u a first hand exp. to prove this pt.

4. My wish is also that u accept Islam as it has been acceted for the last 1400 yrs and I also think u r sincere in ur views though misled being too impressed by wetern ideals (maybe a legacy of the Raj)

I pray to Allah to lead us to the rt path.

wassalaam

adnan

To whomsoever It may Concern

People on the Chowk have protested about Indians raising this issue of Taliban breaking ancient statues/artefacts.

They may read Tahir Mirza’s Article in today’s Dawn. Commenting on Taliban and their fervour to break everything that is considered pre-Islamic, Tahir Mirza has observed, “If we won`t have the gumption to speak out, we shouldn`t mind if others do.” Chowksters who support Taleban in this latest pursuit may like to use his advice.

dear adnan,

(this was not part of my unsent post)

you wrote:

``I will not get into a debate on the distinction b/w political and religious views, but my point was when the society felt threatened by his views they did punish him, no society is tolerant beyond a certain limit. Societies would simply fall apart if this false notion of tolerance were to be enforced.``

Agreed, the distinction between political and religious views can blur sometimes, but what I meant was that Russell was never imprisoned solely for the views he held, no matter how unpopular they would have been with the establishment (though admittedly those views undoubtedly did hurt his career as fellow/lecturer). The point I sought to make was that the state had no grounds to imprison him except in the face of a very real (not merely perceived) threat of invasion. I believe Russell, with hindsight, admitted that his pacficist views were naive.

The merer perception of a threat (often enough nothing more than a betrayal of one`s insecurities) is not reason enough to restrict the `basic rights` of individuals... but `clear and present danger` is!

rgds,

PM

Rshivsena,

(heheh,good one,scout)

#224,

Somehow I just knew you were lurking around, you weasel. Like a worm in an apple, you show your ugly mug when its least needed.

Where the heck were you when I was butting heads with URstruly & Dionysus? Your only use to us Indians is in an Indo-Pak mudslinging match. But no! besharam coward traitor youre nowhere to be found.

I hope to God your parents get you married off to a nice hindu girl who has scout`s personality. Heheh; that would be poetic justice. Imagine a turd like you getting through married life without ever winning a single argument! I hope God is listening.

asif_naqshbandi

....... of course i am a muslim - and a pretty good one too .. but having said that, i don`t necessarily take the burning bushes, flying horses or leaping lazaruses seriously ..... every religion - and islam is no exception - has its silly superstitions, myths, fantasies and lunacies ......for example: there are some crazy southern baptists and muslims who believe that listening to rock and roll will consign you to hell ....now, music is a religion with me and even at the risk of commiting shirk, i do think that frank zappa is a demi-god .... i also believe that jerry garcia might make it to heaven before the adulterous solomon and david or, for that matter, much before the crazy mullah omar - who i consider to be a blasphemer for his jihadic stand against music ...... yusuf islam might never make it to make out with the promised houris, but cat stevens surely will ......

......... as for the supreme being - i doubt very much if he is concerned with the length of our beards or the interest rates on our mortgages - if the unverse is expanding at the rate the physicists say - he has a lot of work to do ....... and next time you are in a church or temple look around you - those folks take their religion seriously too - and for a moment, if you put your prejudice aside, you might feel His presence - He might be dressed up as Ram or only a third of Him might be present, but you can`t miss Her - She is everywhere ..............

Dear Scout:

I think Taleban`s deed came naturally into discussion since they have become a key player in your country, which in course (I won`t say fate of India, I won`t go that far) has become a major problem for India as well. Destroying thousands years old relics, artefacts actually prove Taleban`s insecurity, not of islam. Don`t you think it is a loss of civilization when a student of art or history could learn how people thousands of year ago learnt the art of building such huge monuments without the help of modern techincal advancement? Do you not feel how the life had been in ancient Rome when you go to Coliseum? So why after the ruins when lot of others are actually trying to preserve them?

It is really sad, what Hamid says is so true that they are some people in the world who are hell bent in destroying everything which comes so naturally to people, love, poetry, music, art...

Taleban has become a threat to our part of the world, whether you agree or not. Whether we can discuss them on this board, if that is what you are tring to say, then we are bending that rule all the time in Chowk.

bye now.

Dear Asif Naqshbandi,

No country becomes Islamic or UnIslamic by adding that adjective. I think the best thing to do is to drop ``Islam`` or ``secularism out of the debate of Statehood all together. Yes we are an ``Islamic`` Nation by the virtue of being predomnantly Muslim, but NO STATE has a religion.

The state I want is not subservient to a few -isms call it secularism, Islamism, or fascism. The state I want is and ``inshallah`` will get is....

1) Democratic

2) Impartial-Non Communal

3) Egalitarian

4) the one which Preserves Law and Order

5) Give women and minorities equal rights

Now you have to decide whether your own interpretation of Islam matches up to these ideals or not, because the above mentioned ideals, in my opinion are the ideals of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

Pakistan Zindabad

re asif n`s

``it is necessary for Muslims to rule according to what is in the Qur`an and Sunnah.``

Actually it is not. It is that kind of utter rubbish that has made even ordinary Muslims suspect in the eyes of the world. What is necessary for Muslims is to live their individual lives according to their conscience and leave the rest of the world to follow its own path. God forbid the day that I taken lessons on what is necessary in governance from long dead bigots who enjoyed flogging and abhorred music. These are the people who, in the name of ruling according to the Sharia, are destroying some of the most valued treasures of humanity. To h * * * with a system that encourages rabid bigotry and subtle discriniation on the basis of religion.You guys have tried it in Afghanistan and Iran and Pakistan. I trust the next stop of this freight train of hate will be farther east if the recent rumblings of the nutcases in Dhaka are any indication. Bring `em on! Bengal will be the Waterloo of these merchants of intolerance! You know why? Because Bengalis were practicing Islam long, long before Hazrat Zia, Mullah Omar, and Ayatollah Khomeini discovered it for the rest of humanity.

Re: Spout

``Please get your nose out of the Taleban`s stinky behind..``

Sorry, I haven`t done that...I am not Muslim.

RoMair: [Post # whatever]

You seemed to be on something while writing this post. Apparently, very bitter! I have read thsi post a few days back and wanted to come back to it.

[``It is not every Pakistani`s moral duty to stick it out in Pakistan, and try to reform the system from the inside. Migration is allowed in our culture, society and religion(s). In fact, the Islamic calendar starts from a day of migration. Many people (like myself) migrated because they were jobless in Pakistan. Others migrated for similar personal reasons. These reasons are generally economic and have very little to do with religion or religious extremism; otherwise no one would agree to migrate to Saudia Arabia from Pakistan (or from India, for that matter). It is not every (ex)- Pakistani`s moral duty to do something for the homeland either, after having migrated. Good if they do, but not bad if they don`t.]

Thanks for the information. What are you suggesting here? People should get your blessings before they do something for their country Or should they enroll in your database as the ones who`ve done something. Pathetic!

[It is however every expatriate`s duty to refrain from preaching, once they have decided they are not going to attempt to reform the system from within. I hated it when America return Pakistanis did this when I was in Pakistan. And I try my best not to do it, whenever I return, even if it is on a business trip in a consulting role.]

Well, you can certainly have rules and roles defined for yourself, but you should refrain from telling others - By doing that, you are negating your very own sermon. Care to check on consistency?

[Expatriates should discuss the problems of Pakistan, hopefully because they are simultaneously doing something material and practical to solve them. Otherwise they are better off discussing the effects of same sex marriages on the social fabric of New Hampshire and Saskatchewan, and any other areas where they currently live. ]

Again, you are suggesting what they should or they should not do. This whole post sounded pretty damn hypocritical than anything else.

[When expatriates go to Pakistan to give lectures, they need to stick to their areas of expertise, and not try to preach to their audiences on problems the expatriates have themselves not experienced for decades. An IT professional, from North America, going to Pakistan to deliver a lecture, should stick to what he knows and is up to date with, i.e. the IT industry in North America, or IT in general. Similarly a sociologist going to Pakistan should speak on the social issues of North America; since that is the only area he/she has practical knowledge of.]

Again you do not make sense here at all. Who`s your audience? My gut feeling is: it`s your own self!

scout #229
Its seems to have been a waste of breath to explain so I`m not trying anymore.

And whats with this outrage at outrage? How jobless is that? Better show your outrage at outrage in a wider forum because even the UN and the larger world community are protesting and condemning the Taliban`s actions.

Sadhana

adnan: One correction to my previous post: I dont agree with your statement that the establishment is behind the sectarian organizations - this may be a convenient and self-serving story made up by the mullahs, but they can only fool themselves. If you have concrete proof, though, I hope you will share it with the rest of us. Incidentally, a good way to distinguish believers from non-believers is in fact that the former are united while the latter fight among themselves (this too is in the Quran, and I will leave it to you find the Surah). I agree on the part where you condemn such organizations though. I hope one day you will consider my advice more seriously, and study the Quran with a clear and objective mind, without paying attention to what the ulema have to say about it.

adnan #205 Good to hear from you.

``i hope u read my last posting on that other thread.``

No. But I will try to get to it (I am spending too much time on chowk to go to more than one thread on any day).

``1. Incorrect Info: by Mullahs if u mean all those ppl. who wish shariah to be the supreme law of pak. they did do much abt the drought etc.``

By mullahs I mean anyone who wishes to force his way to power in the name of religion, and does not respect democratic legislative processes. I dont want to get into a debate on shariah since we have already debated religios issues and I am convinced that your beliefs in the shariah have blinded you to the Words of Allah in the Quran and led you to conclusions that are the opposite of the plain and simple message that is repeated over and over again in the Quran. The mullahs do that too, but are further removed from Islam than you are since I believe you are simply misled while they are blinded by a lust for power. At this point, I will simply agree to disagree with you, and pray to Allah that he protect Pakistan from the mullahs.

``At the time whn most ``NGOs`` were not even aware of the problem in thar I collected donations for wells, relief etc for ``a mullah org````

Good for you, and as I said previously I believe you are a good man, but badly misled. We will all be judged by our deeds on Judgement Day, while our lips will be sealed and we will have no Hadith writers there to speak on our behalf before Allah.

``2. the sectarian org. were set up and are supported by the establishment (a uniquely secular one at that) and definitely need to be condemmed.

Agreed, and God bless you for this.

``but they do not represent the ulema.``

I have no problem with someone who leads prayers, if that is what you mean by ulema. Or someone who writes about religion without overstepping the bounds that Allah has placed on the Holy Prophet himself.

``3. u seem to lose objectivity in this reply. ur comments?``

I have tried to be as objective as I can in my above response. What can I do when I can see with my own eyes and understand with my own mind that what is written in the Quran is so vastly different from the way muslim societies (and particularly those who use Islam to make a living or gain power or promote violence) have implemented Islam.

Rsaxena #224 Why are you so very, very, insecure?

shankar #216 I am glad you and Pankaj appreciated my mathwork: I was afraid you would would give me an appointment for a counselling session instead :-).

hamidm`s comments can actually be quite funny at times...but i`d like to ask him a serious q in the hope [prob. vain] that do you consider yourself a Muslim? Do you believe in the Qur`an as the Word of Allah?

* * * * * * *

YLH--what exactly would a ``progressive, moderate`` form of Islam be? And how would it be any different from a totally secularised european state (except perhaps by having lip service to ``Qur`an and SunnaH`` in the Constitution? You guys basically want a secular state and NOT Islam so why do you keep on trying to justify your secularism by the oxymoron ``secular Islamic Pakistan``. That is a total non-sequitur! Face it, Islam and secularism are totally at odds and a country cannot be Islamic and secular at the same time. You can have a secular country where the population is largely Muslim [turkey] but that is not an islamic country; it is necessary for Muslims to rule according to what is in the Qur`an and Sunnah.

krashid #221: If the sprawling cancer hospital in Lahore, and the poor children and adults being treated there, isn`t enough to prove to you the philanthrapic efforts of Imran Khan, then nothing I can say will convince you. So I will not attempt to convince you.

The reason the average rich and poor Pakistani contributed money to this hospital was not due to hero-worship, but due to a bond of trust, and a belief in Imran Khan`s cause and efforts. As far as his personal contributions are concerned, I do not have access to the audit reports, so I do not know the exact details. I do know he gave a lot of his own personal money; probably quite a bit more than what you or I donated. He was able to successfully achieve his objective under extremely difficult circumstances, and that is what he should be graded on.

As far as declaring Miandad`s innings at 288; Mark Taylor declared his own innings when he tied Bradman`s record in Peshawar. So declaring to achieve team victory is perhaps not a bad thing. Even if it is a bad thing, I do not consider it an unforgivable offense. I hope there is a lot more to human achievement than scoring 300 runs in a cricket match.

You need to keep in mind that Imran Khan is the author of a No.1 Best Selling autobiography. I do not know of any Pakistan who has written a book about himself that has become not only a best seller, but a no. 1 best seller in England. If so many people bought his book, I am sure one of them would hire him, as well. Considering the fact that Imran Khan himself is a millionaire, and his wife is a billionaire, I am sure their would be no shortage of jobs for him, even outside the cricketing arena.

Even in the cricketing arena, an internationally recognized cricket coach makes quite a bit more than what I make. Geoffery Boycott was just paid around $40,000 for two weeks of work in Pakistan, as a coach.

I did not state that Musharraf is not taking a job in the USA for the love of Pakistan. I only stated that he (and any other retired COAS of Pakistan, or most militaries) could get a good job within the US defence industry, if he wanted one.

You continue to point out the deficiencies of the past and present Pakistani leadership. I agree with most of them, excluding your criticisms of Imran Khan and Musharraf (both of them were (or perhaps still are) politically naive when they started, but I do not doubt their dedication, honesty or sincerity towards Pakistan. Neither has anything to gain personally from what he is doing. That is more than what I can say for 99% of the other Pakistani leadership that is currently available.

You have however, yet to point out any practicle electable alternatives. The only other option is to have Pakistan run on auto-pilot.

dear pm

I will not get into a debate on the distinction b/w political and religious views, but my point was

When the society felt threatened by his views they did punish him, no society is tolerant beyond a certain limit. Societies would simply fall apart if this false notion of tolerance were to be enforced.

Regards

Adnan

rshivsena #223, ``Taleban are your friends and allies. Please treat them with respect.``

In all seriousness, I`ve heard the word ``taleban`` more so from Indian mouths (or in this case fingers) than Pakistanis.

Please get your nose out of the Taleban`s stinky behind and get on with your lives.

rsaxena #223,

you just proved my point.

sheeshhhhhhhhhhh!

sadna #213, ``Its a big deal for all of us if artefacts are destroyed, some of which are supposed to be 2000 years old.``

people are destroying people and we`re getting all

bent out of shape about artifacts.

the British did their share of destruction of Buddhist temples and statues in what is now North Pakistan.

they even have your prized Kohinoor diamond, those thieves, go yell at them...

Another Fiasco!

My sympathies with the current government!
I strongly feel the government needs to ban all these elements and ask them to go for a tayag. If there is an uproar, these people should be given a few social-work assignments and their performance should be assessed based on that.

Al-Akhwan renews threat to storm Islamabad
From NNI

ISLAMABAD, Feb 27 (NNI): Head of Tanzeem Al-Akhwan, Maulana Amir Akram Awan has asked the government to implement Islamic Shariah in the country in line with its promise, or get ready to face the wrath of the people who are poised to storm capital on March 7. In an exclusive interview with an Islamabad-based English monthly magazine The Voice, the Amir said that he had given the March-7 deadline to the government to take a decision in line with his demands for implementation of a true Islamic system. ``If it fails, we would make our next move.``

``The government had assured us of taking necessary steps, in wake of our December 27 last announcement to storm Islamabad and for which my devotees had gathered in front of Darul Irfan. So after the governments assurance we extended our deadline to March 7.`` To a question about the governments response, Maulana Akram said that it was under pressure and have no other choice. ``People are frustrated, politicians are against them, Maulvis are resenting them and there is no peace in the country. So I believe that the only solution is the implementation of Islamic economic system. This will rid them of the American shackles.``

Asked whether his party consisted of retired army officers and soldiers, he said : ``Being a spiritual party, Akhwan welcomes anyone who wishes to attach himself with it. Our members are not limited to the armed forces but belong to every segment of society.`` To another question that whether his party was having an impact in the armed forces, the Akhwan chief said that since Akhwan was a spiritual party, it could be supported by anyone. And its not something objectionable to have support within the armed forces of Pakistan. ``Its not a political party, which seeks power and wealth. So being a spiritual leader and a Sheikh I have devotees everywhere.``

Refuting the allegations that retired military men train his followers in guns and martial arts, the Amir said that this is all mud slinging by the slaves of the imperialists. ``My people are all around the world. I dont have to stay in hotels and motels whenever I go abroad. I stay with my disciples. Yes. I receive their e-mail messages, besides phone calls, faxes and letters. I have got a latest e-mail messaging system, you speak and the computer will type it and send it automatically.``

Asked that why he launched Akhwan, Akram Aiwan said that ``when I realized that my people, specifically the poor were being crushed and plunged into abysmal distress by the so-called rulers, I decided to stop them. Because my Tassawaf is not to sit in a corner and orate, but to do something practically.`` Told that Islam already existed in Pakistan then how can he justify his demand, the Maulana said that its for the name only. ``If there had been a perfect Islamic system no one would have died of poverty and hunger. There would been justice and equality. It could take forty years to decide a case in Pakistan. People are escaping, corruption and irregularities are at the climax. Are these the norms of an Islamic state.``

Asked that his Shariah, like that in Swat, could cause international isolation, the Amir of Al-Akhwan said ``this is not Shariah that one should only concentrate and throw his weight behind one or two things. Shariah is something more than that. It involves consensus of the most learned Ulema of the time, who know deeply about the Quran, Hadith and Fiqah and who also know about the worldly things.`` ``I am fighting for Islam in Pakistan. Because if Islam takes hold in Pakistan, not only the Kashmir problem would be resolved but India itself would become an Islamic state,`` was the Maulanas reply to the question whether he was fighting in Kashmir.

To a query on Jihad the Maulana said ``Jihad is aimed at fighting evil, not humans. The spirit behind this concept is that if a man is doing wrong, he should be stopped, even if it requires elimination. Because Islam says its better to kill one miscreant in order to save hundreds being killed by him. And this is not a war, and west should understand this philosophy.``

Fielding a question, he said `` Islam will rise from this very land of Pakistan. Its in the hands of Allah to assign anyone this sacred task. But God-willing Islam will land in Pakistan in its true spirit and will spread allover the subcontinent. A magnificent Islamic state will emerge with its boundaries beginning from Afghanistan, subcontinent, Iran to Saudi Arabia and onward. And this state will attract the entire human race in the wake of ruthless crushing of the poor in every society and everywhere.``NNI

Yasser:

Your last post on ``Jinnah should have lived longer ...`` forced me to write a few lines.
Personally, I feel, had he lived a little longer, he would have felt miserable, disappointed and very sad.

Even in the movie, he was portrayed as a different person after the partition. As far as his life is concerned, he gave it for the liberation of Pakistan. In order to take care of the fiascos, he needed at least another decade or so.

How many democratic governments in Pakistan have produced such leaders? How many of them have emphasized on the three simple, but poignant words: Unity, Faith and Discipline ?
[PS: This faith is not the faith in any taliban-type or in any drunkard...it meant faith as faith in God as well as in oneself]

Can Pakistan even afford democratic leaders? Personally, I`d rather have a disciplined dictator than a clueless democratic leader. Well, I guess that may be the result of seeing less anarchy in the army rule as compared to the democratic rule in Pakistan. I do not disgaree that armed forces should never intervene in the government, but if there is a lack of discipline and systematic way of doing things then you better have a disciplined leader[dictator or not does not make any difference] and under him have the democratic institutions. Weird, but viable?

Sigalph and Shankar,

I think it was imperative for Pakistan, that Jinnah should have lived beyond how long he did. I have no doubt that Pakistan would be an excelent secular democracy, and the proponent of Progressive Moderate Muslim Culture....

Yasser Hamdani

Re: Asif, Urstruly, Krashid

Everyone knows that hamidm is really a coconut oil drenched, lhoongi wearing, bhaji consuming South Indian. Stop trying to brand him a traitor to Pakistan and Islam.

Re: shrink #216

You bet I read that. Dude, get a life....you are soooo pathetic. Basically, your posts are of 2 varieties: 1) Some long piece of crap stating obvious things over and over again, or 2) Trying hard to kiss someone`s behind to win support on CHowk for your insecure little mind.

Re: scout

``Why are Indians interacting on Chowk so disgustingly obsessed with the Taleban?``

Taleban are your friends and allies. Please treat them with respect.

Shankar #198

I think our frame of reference is different.

I don`t care anymore what a Government is doing and justifying that. Particularly if a Government is taking decision against popular will of the people.

I have read few books on Kashmir both by Indian and Pakistani writers. Considering the overall history of Kashmir starting with Sheikh Abdullah`s independent Kashmir movement, I think it is the right of Kashmiri people to decide their own future. Whether they want to go to hell, they have their right to do so.

Second. My reading of history tells me that during this century different movements have utilized different symbols for the aim of National assertion. May it be Communism of Russia or China or independent movements in Africa and Asia in the name of Nationalism or Socialism or current movement of Islam in Iran, Kashmir or Afghanistan or Chechneya. Another thing is obvious in history that only pragmatism after achieving the National identity can bear fruit. Compare Russia with China or Iran after revolution and current Iran.

The real curse on a nation is dogmatism after achieving independence to the detriment of progress and prosperity of people and nation.

ROmair #207

I see your logic.

I don`t know how you can put Imran Khan in the category of people for whose world is waiting.

You mentioned his education first. I am not aware of anything significant or non significant regarding his education. I agree with you that he can coach. But, I think you and me make more than a coach these days. You also skipped the part of philanthropy. How much he contributed out of his whatever he earned towards SKMH. Which money he is utilizing to travel abroad frequently. Is it people`s money or his own. He was able to achieve SKMH because of hero worship of Pakistanis. Didn`t they said that an Industrialist prime minister like Nawaz Sharif will change the fate of nation. Off course he did his own. So on that ground the real hero are the people who donated. Although Imran might have some contribution. My belief regarding Nawaz Sharif was proven right. A person as jealous, cunning and superfluos as Imran Khan in no way can be some sort of philanthropist. (And please reasses your definition again). The example of declaring Javed Miandad on 288 score when he was captain is example of utter Kamingi. Javed later told that if there was a hint of declaring him near his triple century, he would have played more fast. As I have given example of slapping a poor man for going near him when he was about to leave on his helicopter. I don`t think people like these are near to human moreso philanthropist.

And your joke of Brigadier and Colonel getting good job in foreign countries and telling us that Pervez Musharraf can also do that except for his love for Pakistan. I don`t know should I laugh on that or what.

And tell me a time period after the death of Liaquat Ali Khan when Beareaucracy cum military has not ruled in Pakistan. Don`t tell me another joke about democratic Governemnt of Benazir and Nawaz Sharif. Both of them did their half term. And height is that when Supreme court reinstated the first government of Nawaz Sharif, then Army chief Kakar forced Nawaz Shjarif to resign.

I agree with your thinking that 2nd best thing Pakistan produced was Ayub Khan leading not only to accumulation of wealth in the hands of selected few but also leading the break-up of Pakistan. And I am pretty sure best thing which is happening to current Pakistan is Pervez Musharraf. After this people living in current areas of Pakistan will have their own elected Government minus Army and its constituency. As it happened in former East Pakistan during the 2nd best`s regime.

re shankar #215

You said about the Quaid-e-Azam

``I think if he had lived for even 10 years, Pakistan would have been an excellent democracy. ``

Perish the thought! Had Mr Jinnah lived any longer, his countrymen would have made a villain of him and destroyed his good name, reputation, and standing. My late grandfather, an old Muslim League hand, swore that God`s greatest gift to Mr Jinnah was his demise in the early months of Pakistan or else...`yeh badmash unki izzat ki dhajji dhajji kar de te`. That every Pakistani govt office is adorned with his picture and he is quoted by every petty politician is a testament to the fact that the Quaid managed to depart the world with his reputation intact in the nick of time. A man of his stature may not have been able to stomach the pettiness of the men who followed him anyway.

re cheraym #190

Thank you for your very kind words. I try.

re adnan

``Again the Islam Bashing has forced me comment on ur not too bright observation.``

A. Anybody who disagrees with you is not Islam-bashing unless you have started believing yourself to be Islam in which case you are guilty of semi-shirk. You argue well often but don`t be carried away to the point where you consider yourself Mr Islam. Allah Himself has asked believer to walk softly on His earth.

1. ur first false premise is that shariah is wht zia wanted to enforce. check ur facts.

A. I long ago decided not to get into this typical Islamist trick where they want Islamic absolutism but disown everybody who implements it because the Islamists are afraid of a bad record. This is quite a normal ploy of politicians everywhere-running away from their cohorts` record and yet hoping to acheive the same ends. Pal, I cut my teeth in the nitty gritty of Congressional and, later, Presidential, campaigns. WHo are you trying to fool?

2. ``next incorrect aasumption: the hr record of the west has improved. No my friend despotic regimes in the middle east and africa are still being supported by the west.``

A. In fact the most recent Freedom House survey (1999) shows more nations than anytime in history embracing pluralism, freedom, and democracy including traditional erstwhile Pro-western dictatorships like the Philipines, Argentina, Peru, Panama, and tentatively Jordan and perhaps Bahrain. We have a long way to go but the Freedom Revolution has begun and Afghanistan will be free someday too.

``(may i mention algeria in particular where the FIS has not only been deprived of its right to rule but also has been persecuted savagely; turkey another case in point and so on)``

A. PLease save me the Turkey rap. Turkey is far more pluralistic than Afghanistan and SUdan and any other Islamist regime and moving further towards freedom everyday. The situation in ALgeria, while tragic, was understandable. As scholars Robert Dahl and Robert Putnam have pointed out `one man one vote` does not mean `one man, one vote, one time`. The FIS was stopped so that it couldn`t do what the Communists did at the ballot box in E EUrope in the late forties. Democracy cannot be used to destroy it.

3. pl. point out wht in ur learned opinion are the major flaws in islamic shariah (quote sources whn u write)

A. Do you have a couple of hours?

4. finally i m rather interested in learning more of islamic shariah from an erudote scholar like urself, pl. give me a reading list so i may wake up from my slumber of ignorance.

A. I taught liberal arts not theology. I must refer you to your favorite mullah. My interest in this debate is solely to enshrine the ideas of human liberty and pluralism. A man`s religion and faith is his personal business not the public`s and vice versa.

PS hamidm #214
Hm. Seem to remember something about images of an admired national leader in every ..? Did the blood militate then? :).

hamidm #214

Though maybe they will try blood tranfusion first :). Hey, I`ll bet A&E has the documentary archived in which they even interviewed some (now migrated) Afghan Jews on the subject. One prominent young Taliban leader even spoke of what his grandfather told him in that connection.

scout #213
Not everyone shares the `holes` that exist in some young Pakistanis` sense of subcontinental history. Its a big deal for all of us if artefacts are destroyed, some of which are supposed to be 2000 years old.

http://www.timesofindia.com/today/28home2.htm
Taliban decree may punch gaps in Indian history

``... For India, the region is of great significance as it till date houses some of the finest specimens of Indian civilisation and culture, says R Sengupta, ex-director of conservation, Archaeological Survey of India (ASI).

Sengupta headed the Indian Archaeological Mission to Afghanistan in the late `60s. ``Time and again India has helped its historical neighbour with expertise in restoration of the latter`s heritage in pre-Taliban days and had earned wide appreciation too,`` says Sengupta who spent nine years (from 1969-77) in Afghanistan as part of the Indo-Afghan restoration project. There are several sites, he says, ``which are of special interest to India. Notable among them: Bamiyan, Ningrahar (modern name Hadda), Jalalabad and Kapisa (modern name (Begram).``

Bamiyan, situated 250 km north-west from Kabul, nestled between the mountain ranges of the Hindukush and Koh-i-Baba at 2,850 metres, was on the famous ``Silk Route`` that connected Western Asia with the sub-continent. ``Being a convenient halting place for trading caravans, and monastic establishments and Buddhist images spread all around, it soon turned out to be a major Buddhist centre of meditation and worship and continued to be so until Chengis Khan`s invasion in 13th century,`` says Sengupta.

Jalalabad, bordering Pakistan and now a strategic battlefield of the Taliban and the opposition Northern Alliance, was once a famous Buddhist pilgrimage site. Similarly, Hadda (ancient name Ningrahar) was famous for its stupas, viharas and Buddhist sacred objects. The place is mentioned in the vivid accounts of Chinese traveller Hiuen-Tsang. Another important site was Begram (ancient name Kapisa). Once the summer capital of Kushanas, thousands of objects of ivory and coins belonging to the Kushana period have been unearthed from the site....``

Sadhana

Tahmed,

You got me reeeaaal good yaar:) Man, your good! Poor Godot took you seriously & beat me to it!

I read that post a dozen times & then started rubbing my forehead & thinking:

``Damn, these frikking Pakistanis talk at a level of math that is incredibly complex! Pakistanis are frikking geniouses! India is SCREWED!! ha ha``

Thankyou Pankaj, for pointing out that it was a joke. You made my day:) You guys are right, doctors like me are only good for ``ghadda majoori``---anything outside my field, I`m a total ignoramous. Er, I hope those ``C``s harimau, ali & RSaxena arent reading this:)

Godot, dont feel so bad ,yaar. Actually, its tahmed`s fault/treachery. He`s always so serious when he posts. Then, all of a sudden, from nowhere, he comes up with this outrageously hysterical post! They cant blame us for being bakras.

Tahmed, my hats off to you. One of these days I`m going to try to get you good too. But I think I have a very difficult task. I think you are too smart to miss a trap:)

ROmair

post #207.

That was a beautifully written post. I love the way you present your case and the inherent logic in your arguments. I know its none of my business cos I`m an Indian American. I didnt trust Mushy because I wasnt being objective (I was seeing him purely as an untrustworthy Kargil backstabbing villan).

However, your posts make me think twice & look at him from Pakistan`s angle. I beginning to agree with you wholeheartedly. From Pakistan`s standpoint he`s the best thing that could have happened to Pakistan. Comparing the moral values of Pakistan`s ex-leaders, he seems to be the best you`ve had--other than Jinnah & Ayub.

I left Jinnah out because before coming to Chowk I had a very skewed impression of Jinnah. Thanks to ylh & many others ,I`m a firm believer that he would have been a great ``father of a nation`` for any nation that become independant of the British, in those days. He took the best British values & combined them with the best desi values. Pakistan`s greatest tragedy was that he died before he could set down solid foundations. I think if he had lived for even 10 years, Pakistan would have been an excellent democracy. Today, her only major problem would be hoards of Indian muslims banging on her doors wanting to come in:)

I was too young to be interested in politics during the Ayub era.

Your narration of Imran Khan impressed me. Gee, you could be a damn good PR man (I`m not saying it facetiously). I know Imran had a benefit match in India to raise money for that hospital. Kudos to him!

KRashid,

Yaar, sometimes you get so enthusiastic about your cynicism, you get carried away:)

sadna

``btw, what will the Taliban do if they are confronted with evidence supporting the theory that Pastun tribes are actually the Lost Tribes of Israel?? Commit mass suicide ?``

........... i think it is a good idea .... let`s spread the rumor - how about sending an e-mail to the frontier times ... sorry, i forgot - the uncouth but pious bearded ones burned down their offices and i don`t think they have fax machines and e-mail and electricity and other symbols of the decadent west in kabul ..... maybe we can send adnan and naqshbandi with the message and a few pounds of tabacca from tenessee ......

.......... i knew it would come to this - me, an indirect descendent of the great but-shikan mahmud ghazni and a direct (you betcha!)descendent of ahmed shah abdali, agreeing with an infidel and idol-worshipper from dar-ul-harb to conspire against a brother in islam and a half-brother in afghan blood - that kind of explains my frequent bouts of insanity when only the purest peshawari niswar or that potent pati from chitral or the finest powder from dara adam khel will pacify me as i go on a rampage against heretic liberals, god-less communists, shameless pant-wearers, beardless munafiqs, red-dotted hindoos, kafir music lovers, besharam soccer players, behaya gymnasts, horrid movie stars and generally anyone who believes in being human or happy .............

......as for breaking idols, don`t take it personal - it is a sunnah and every muslim can gain the sawab of a hundred naffals by breaking an idol under six inches and five hundered thousand naffals for beheading the already amputated venus di milo ........even my little daughter has beheaded and amputated a few barbies.......

Why are Indians interacting on Chowk so disgustingly obsessed with the Taleban?

Looks as though they have nothing better to do than to go web-surfing for Taleban related articles and cutting`n`pasting them on Chowk.

And another funny thing is that, these same Indians (they know who they are) don`t bother to interact on the creative, non-political articles on Chowk.

Get a life please folks.

Taliban are proving themselves to be the biggest menace in the universe. After establishing a comfortable life style with the help of wonderful export of marijuana/cocaine, killing infidels ( aren`t the shias infidels too ?) and reducing women to door-mat status their hands are itching to do more.

re. Adnan672 # 208

``. Whn that society was threatened not only was Russell beaten with a nail studded borad by a mob he was sent to prison and dismissed from Trinity college.``

Russell was imprisoned for his polictical (pacifist) views; never his (ir)religious ones.

rgds,

PM

re. Godot #175:

``Yasser, I remember you once wrote to me that, after your studies here in the US, you`ll go back to Pakistan. I hope you do. To me, you, and young people like you, are Pakistan`s hope. Pakistan needs people like you. I know you can, and will, make a difference. ``

Godot, SIR! :),

I`d (honestly) like to know why young people like YOU (asumming you`re still in you`re 30s-- an age many cultures still considered pre-adulthood) and Me are any less ``Pakistan`s hope``.

The questionof course, is completely rhetorical.

Regards,

PM

Godot #197 I am sorry about my previous post. The math was done in a lighthearted manner and I wish you had taken it in the same spirit. In any case, I should not have belittled you, and I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.

hamidm

1. Hazrat Russell was able to say that cos he was living in a society that was very stable and not threatened by all his nonsense.

2. Whn that society was threatened not only was Russell beaten with a nail studded borad by a mob he was sent to prison and dismissed from Trinity college.

3. Finally enlighten me by referring to me some books on Shariah which u no doubt studied before condemning it.

adnan

naqshbandi

...... and another reason i can`t stand the thought of shariah being implemented in

pakistan is because of what hazrat bertrand russel (RA) said more than fifty years

ago .......... he was able to say what he did and get away with his life and limb intact

because he lived in that terrible place of your birth that you seem to despise so

much ........ he said,

krashid #185: ``If you don`t forget your past post yet, you will remember you were trying to prove that Imran Khan and Pervez Musharraf (alongwith Dr Ata and Dr. Hoodbhoy) have a bright future waiting for them in foreign countries, but they are staying back in Pakistan because of the love of their country.``

It is good to see that you are softening your stance, somewhat. Dr. Ata and Hoodbhoy (anyone with a technical Ph.D.) has quite a bright future for anywhere in today`s world. The one`s who stay behind in Pakistan to do constructive work, do so for the love of country. That is the point I was trying to make.

Imran Khan could easily be employed in a lot of different countries, if for nothing else, his cricketing knowledge alone. Not to mention his educational qualifications, and his contacts (his wife probably has contacts of her own, as well). You are underestimating his efforts in building the cancer hospital. It would never have come even close to being built had he not been heavily involved in it. And he spent a lot of his own money on it, as well. Not to mention the fact that time is money, also. It is not a coincidence that no one else, including the govt., has been able to build a cancer hospital. I am obviously a bit biased towards him because I feel he is genuine, and because I have supported his party`s candidates in elections.

There are personal quirks in everyone`s personality. Jinnah being a Muslim, used to drink. He fell in love with a 16 year old girl(married her when she turned 18) when he was around 40 years old. He did not associate with his own daughter after she got married. However, one should highlight the Pakistani philanthrapists (and honest leaders), not attempt to undermine their efforts.

I put Musharraf into the category of people who are genuinely trying to reform the Pakistani system. I will reach a definite conclusion in around two years. The two criteria being whether he hands the govt. back to civilians (thus setting an unprecendented example in Pakistani, and international, politics), and whether his own family benefits personally from him being the head of the govt. The last thing Pakistan needs are a couple more Ejaz ul Haqs, Humayun Akhtars, Benazirs, and Gohar Ayubs.

As far as jobs waiting for him outside Pakistan. The COAS of Pakistan can get quite a few good job offers from the various companies in the international defence arena. I know a few Pakistani Brigadiers, Maj. Gens., and Lt. Gens. who have been offered high paying jobs as consultants in these companies. The moment these companies see someone who has knowledge of and contacts in the defence purchasing agencies in Pakistan, they go out of their way to offer them jobs. Some, like Gen. Karamat, even end up being members of influential US think tanks. If I can get a pretty good job in the US as a retired Captain, I am quite sure a retired General could get even a better one.

``Although I agree with your statement that 500,000 guns can be fired on his one command. Who knows it better than Pakistanis who have passed most of their lives under this 500,000 guns.``

This is partially correct. It is true that civilians Pakistanis have had to suffer under Army rule historically. But, in my opinion, they have suffered under every type of rule. For the simple reason, that Pakistani politics is dictated by the one person who is at the top of the govt. So the type of Army rule is really dependent on the type of COAS. All civilian and military leaders have been dictators. If Pakistan is going to be run by dictators, then might as well support the most honest and sincere one; which amongst the current available lot seems to be Musharraf.

aoa

TO THE MUSLIMS ON THIS FORUM

I may not agree entirely with the taliban policy of destroying the statues ``idols`` but they do have some rationale behind this

``jaa la haqqo wa zahaq al batil...........``

this is wht the prophet (SAW) was reciting as he entered makkah and destroyed all the idols there

then he sent emissaries all over Arab to destroy any idols.

The only point is whether these are ``artifacts`` ``idols`` or ``statues`` or.......

a matter of interpretation i think, dont u ?

adnan

tahmed:

aoa

i hope u read my last posting on that other thread.

1. Incorrect Info: by Mullahs if u mean all those ppl. who wish shariah to be the supreme law of pak. they did do much abt the drought etc.

At the time whn most ``NGOs`` were not even aware of the problem in thar I collected donations for wells, relief etc for ``a mullah org``

2. the sectarian org. were set up and are supported by the establishment (a uniquely secular one at that) and definitely need to be condemmed.

but they do not represent the ulema.

3. u seem to lose objectivity in this reply. ur comments?

wassalaam

adnan

macgupta #202

How about the tomb/temple of Ramses and the Assad Dam? India should do something more than protest.

http://www.expressindia.com/news/daily/20010227/02705901.htm
`` India condemns Taliban decree
NEW DELHI: India today condemned the Taliban militia`s decree ordering the destruction of all statues in Afghanistan including the Bamiyan Buddhas and other relics, terming it as an assault on the common heritage of humankind.

In a strongly-worded statement here, the External Affairs Ministry said the decree, reportedly issued by Mullah Omar, leader of the Taliban militia, once again profiles the militia`s ``Narrow and obscurantist ideologies``.

It said, ``We condemn this edict and call upon the Taliban to ensure that the Bamiyan Buddhas and other relics are fully protected.``

The statement recalled earlier decrees such as one in 1998 which required that Afghan nationals who profess the Hindu faith wear a distinctive piece of clothing or put a distinctive mark on their bodies so that they could be easily distinguished.

``The Taliban edict constitutes an assault not only on Afghan tradition but on the common heritage of humankind,`` it said.

It noted that Afghanistan has through history stood at the crossroads of civilisations and it bears their imprint in greater measure.

The relics of these civilisations including the Bamiyan Buddhas stood witness to the pride of the Afghan people in their tradition. PTI ``


btw, what will the Taliban do if they are confronted with evidence supporting the theory that Pastun tribes are actually the Lost Tribes of Israel?? Commit mass suicide ?

Sadhana

Zahra #157 Thanks for posting the link to the Economist`s site on e-business. It is interesting that while Pakistan does not have a regulatory framework to promote e-business (like legal recognition of e-signatures) the government does try to ``control`` internet access by denying ISPs direct access to international gateways. On the other hand, compared to other countries with similar per capita income, Pakistan seems to have slightly better access to the internet. And the government hasnt yet figured out how to tax e-business (as is the case in all countries today, and which is probably a good thing too). Also interesting, both Pakistan and India are close to the bottom of the heap (55 and 50 respectively out of 60 countries selected) - this reflects the fact geographically e-business is limited to a few areas only. But much work is being done - the growth of IT training institutes that are private inititatives, as well as the government sponsored contract with Nortel Networks to strenghten wireless networks in Pakistan. I think our big hero in all this is Dr. Atta (the IT minister) with credit (lets give the devil his due) also to Shahbaz Sharif, and most of all to the young Pakistanis who are plugging away at the opportunities now opening up.

sigalph235

re asif n`s

AOA

Again the Islam Bashing has forced me comment on ur not too bright observation.

1. ur first false premise is that shariah is wht zia wanted to enforce. check ur facts.

2. next incorrect aasumption: the hr record of the west has improved. No my friend despotic regimes in the middle east and africa are still being supported by the west.

(may i mention algeria in particular where the FIS has not only been deprived of its right to rule but also has been persecuted savagely; turkey another case in point and so on)

3. pl. point out wht in ur learned opinion are the major flaws in islamic shariah (quote sources whn u write)

4. finally i m rather interested in learning more of islamic shariah from an erudote scholar like urself, pl. give me a reading list so i may wake up from my slumber of ignorance.

adnan

``why cannot Pakistan enforce shar`iat inside its own borders and yet be a full

member of the international community?``

I will take the question head on. The reason, to which you may be oblivious, is that

the world has changed significantly since the time of the late Mard-e-Momin

Allama Ziaul Haq. In the darkes days of the Cold War the West was ready to

overlook the transgressions of its dictatorial allies. With the coming down of the

Berlin Wall, there has been a constant re-assertion, intellectually and morally, in the

civilized world of the fundamental inviolability of God given rights.This ethic is

gaining ground by the day on both sides of the Atlantic. Soon there will come a day

when a country, notwithstanding its claims of sovereignty, will not be able to have

any intercourse with the civilized world unless this country follows certain principles

of fundamental fairness. This evolving consensus will require all those who wish to

join in at the table of human civilization to adhere to the basic ideas of

representative democracy, pluralism, civil liberties a la the Univ Declaration of HR,

sharia cannot be a Pakistan fully accepted in the international community.

Oh, please save the lecture about Islamic human rights- I know the drill about how

it is superior and gives more rights and the rest of the nonsense. Feel free to join in

if you have something different to add.

The Buddha statues in Bamiyan are probably too large to be airlifted. The United Nations and even members of the Pakistan society for preservation of Afghan heritage are protesting this edict. In fact, the Taliban had promised the UN an edict protecting the cultural artifacts, but I suppose breaking promises to unbelievers and apostates is justified.

You may be wondering why this latest Taliban action provoked more response from me than their stupid restrictions on women, massacres of Shias and so on.

The point is that until yesterday it was possible to believe that the Taliban were in a phase of radicalism that would moderate itself as things stabilized. No longer.

Pakistanis, there are many things that you have, such as music and performing arts, non-religious literature, participation of women in economic, political and social life, different languages, historical monuments etc., that while not anti-Islamic according to common-sense, nevertheless do not spring from the Pristine Islam that the Taliban seek to establish. They arise instead from the particularity of Pakistan, i.e., inherited from your ancestors, adapted from your neighbors, etc.

You have been given notice that all these are in jeopardy.

Just as Pol Pot sought to erase all the Cambodian heritage so that he could create a new society starting with a fresh slate, likewise, the Taliban seek to eradicate everything that they cannot trace back to an origin in seventh century Arabia.

If you value the facets of Pakistani culture that I mentioned, then sooner or later you will have to crush the Taliban or face the sword yourself.

-Arun the Infidelator

#180 Macgupta

Here`s more from the BBC site:

``In an interview with the BBC`s Pashto Service,

a Taleban spokesman, Mullah Abdul Hai

Motmain, said the statues were being

worshipped.

He said it had been the policy of prophets and

Islamic holy men from time immemorial to

destroy all false gods..

``Mullah Motmain said the people worshipping

the statues were enemies of the Taleban. He

refused to accept that Islam called for respect

for other faiths.

Islam, he said, had defeated and cancelled out

all other religions. ``

More than anything else, this shows the Taliban for

what they are: an intolerant band of primitives, whose

gain self worth only when they stand atop others.

But please, don`t let these primitives or the others

(such as Urstruly) writing on this forum blunt

your humanity. That would be the ultimate caving

in, the ultimate defeat.

In the larger scheme of things those of us here

amount to little. But we influence our circle of

friends, family and children. Let us not be

infected with the virulence and hatred of these

primitives. Let it be said that the primitives lost.

This is from todays Independent , a British newspaper :

``But the Taliban`s ambassador to Pakistan, Abdul Salam Zaeef, on Tuesday said ``we don`t care why they weren`t destroyed in the past, but we have a government now in Afghanistan that is religious and we want to stop all things that are against Islam.``

As well as the two giant Buddhas, Afghanistan`s national museum – which has been damaged by rockets – has hundreds of small statues of Buddha. They would also be destroyed under the order, Zaeef said.

However, he said officials would not enter the temples of minority religions, including Hindus or Sikhs, to carry out the order.

``We respect Hindus and Sikhs and they will not be stopped from performing their rituals,`` Zaeef said.``

(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Asia_China/2001-02/APbuddha270201.shtml)

regards

Harpreet

KRashid,

{{Since we Pakistanis in majority are prone to look at our Governement and its action with cynicism, we expect the same from Indians.}}

I`m not sure why you have the impression that Indians have a holier than thou attitude . It seems to me that some Pakistanis get incensed when Indians criticise Pakistan, but forget that Indians have also been forthcoming about criticising their own country.

In the same vein, I was taken aback when Dionysus thought I was calling India a ``f_ing paradise``! I think he conveniently forgot that in my previous para I said that India shares the same gutter as Pakistan (Ok if some of you take offense to even that statement--we are both in different gutters; but both gutters stink just as much). I`ve always maintained that BOTH India & Pakistan are villans in Kashmir. However, no matter how many times I say that; jerks like URstruly & Dionysus think I`m trashing only Pakistan.

What pisses me off about URstruly is that in his zealous propaganda on Kashmir, he actually believes that Pakistan is the noble knight in shining armor, with nothing but the most honorable intentions with how they conduct their jehad. It seems that when a label of ``jehad`` is given to anything, it becomes a sacred cause & all killings are absolutely justified.

Thats why I pointed out why other muslim countries dont give a frick about URstruly`s brand of anti-Indian propaganda (which I`m sure Pakistani diplomats are drilling into the ears of Islamic countries). That DOES NOT automatically mean they believe Indians. When we keep our propaganda on the shelf, we will realise the BLUNT TRUTH:-The other muslim countries (& the rest of the world) is saying, ``we dont give a S *IT what you 2 countries are saying; BOTH you guys are f *cked up & deserve the mess you have created; so take your propaganda {from either side} & shove it where the sun dont shine; & keep us out of it``!!

Pakistan constantly complains & cant understand why the rest of the world is SO insensitive about their constant appeals to mediate on Kashmir. The world is saying ``sure; we`ll mediate; but both sides should be willing to compromise``. Pakistanis say they are willing to compromise, but India is this stubborn, shameless country that doesnt want mediation because the world will get a clearer picture of Indian brutality & side with Pakistan. That is the ONE point every Pakistani absolutely believes & agrees upon.

Think about this. Many decades have passed since the UN resolutions. Whether you guys blame India for foot dragging & reneging on promises is true or not is a MOOT issue. Indians & Pakistanis will NEVER agree on this; till HELL FREEZES OVER! Yes, Indians dont CARE what you Pakistanis say about us. Call us treacherous, untrustworthy, ``bagal mein churi`` or call us ``satan reincarnate`` as much as your heart desires. Indian response is ``the feeling is mutual``. Do you think India gives a s *it what Pakistan thinks of us? India is perfectly happy if we never talk to each other for the rest of eternity.

I hate to admit this; my best friend RSaxena is right! India feels its high time we create another ``Berlin wall`` on our borders & have nothing to do with Pakistan. GoI`s attitude & behaviour these days says ``f *ck you, we dont want to talk to you as long as you carry on this jehad/terrorism. We are perfectly content in viewing Kashmir as an internal issue & we`ll handle it ourselves. If you assholes in Pakistan think you can bleed India--you got another thing coming--because you will die long before you bleed us to death!`` Believe me, the world (including the Islamic world) will not twist India`s arm. In this game of ``chicken`` Pakistan will eventually lose, IMO.

Personally, I feel this attitude of the GoI is WRONG, very WRONG--even if I think India will eventually prevail. What the HELL will it get India to see Pakistan going down the tubes? Not only will not India progress because of this stubbornness; but also I feel Pakistanis are just as human as us. I feel no joy that our neighbors are suffering right now; maybe more than Indians are suffering. It is stupidity to cut our nose to spite our face. Both India & Pakistan have serious social problems that Kashmir is detracting us.

Re: tahmed321, #186

I agree. I`m not a thirteen year old. You, on the other hand, have a mentality of a thirteen year old, and writing skills of a five year old!

{{Top Hizbul militant surrenders in Kashmir

BARAMULLA, India, Feb 27 (AFP) -

A top Muslim militant, carrying a reward of 200,000 rupees (4,300 dollars) on his head, surrendered Monday to Border Security Force (BSF) personnel in India`s restive state of Kashmir.

Jahangir Khan, a district commander with the dominant Hizbul Mujahideen militant outfit, gave himself up in Baramulla, 55 kilometers (35 miles) north of the Kashmir summer capital Srinagar.

Khan was the first senior militant to surrender since the Indian government suspended counter-insurgency operations in Kashmir on November 28. The ceasefire has since been extended three times and will next come under review at the end of May.

Khan said he had kept a low profile after getting trained in Pakistan-administered Kashmir, and had hired a watch-repairing shop in Patan township, 30 kilometers (20 miles) north of Srinagar.

He used the shop as a cover to coordinate the militants under his command.

``I became active in early 2000 and carried out a number of operations against the security forces,`` he said, adding the government ceasefire had encouraged him to surrender.}}

GORAY JOURNALIST, GOREE JOURNALISTS AND LIBERALS

http://www.jang-group.com/jang/index.html

Arshad Ahmad Haqqaani on Editorial 2/27/01

NEW WORLD ORDER AND GLOBAL VILLAGE
(The current version)

http://www.jang-group.com/jang/index.html

Munno Bhai on Editorial Page 2/27/01

And we are asked to shut up.

macgupta #180
Bhai, if medieval purges are to be countered with medieval mindsets even in modern times, what is the use of all this progress?

A better response from Indians in this world of modern dynamism, empowerment and newly awakened pride in heritage would be

a. to get the Dalai Lama to issue public statements and make a big issue out of it(which is is) and pull weight with the Taliban leadership

b. Arrange to airlift the remaining statues out of Afghanistan. Perhaps Pakistan and India can cooperate on this, I thought I heard Gen. Musharraf expressing pride in Pakistan`s Buddhist heritage.

We should not depend solely on (the admittedly active and alert) diplomats from the UN to take care of something which is so important to us and the world community.

Sadhana

Hamidm

No one needs to be thrown out of Pakistan. We however need to establish a rule of law and principles of social justice. The Western style democracy, which turns into Indian style democracy, when sub-contintentalized, is un-acceptable. If its presence in India for 55 years is not a good indicator of a moral-less democracy then what is. We need a political system which is driven by our moral values and not of those of West or without morals like India (I have not used the term amoral though). Please excuse us if we refuse to be Aadha Titer Aadha Batair. Unlike you we have a plan and model of our intended polity and determination to execute this plan. We dont whine, we work against all odds. People like you, Indians or West are wind beneath our wings-we thank you for that.

Re: krashid

``Yes I am ashamed...``

Good, you have a lot to be ashamed of.

By the way, isn`t homosexuality un-Islamic?

Dear Hamidm #181, #182.

Hope I do not sound like your campaign manager, but you are witty, funny, yet damn serious. You are fluid, you are subtle, yet you are direct. It is indeed a unique style of yours in Chowk. As I mentioned before, you remind me of another great satirist from Calcutta, Sanjeeb Chattopadhaya. I hope to read you more, and God give more power to your pen! May be you can consider of one whole article instead of interactions. Of course, that depends on your time.

Sigalph, you also write very well, always to the point.

Regards.

Pankaj #176 Welcome to this thread where the music never stops :-)

Godot #175 That was a simple linear equation that a thirteen year old would be expected to understand. And you couldnt figure it out, you numbskull (you confused the value of the coefficient with the value of the variable). Instead of wasting your time worrying about the future of Pakistan on chowk, you should register for an adult literacy class.

Rsaxena #146

I don`t expect the same from you, I am pretty sure of this.

I colloqial term it is called BeGhairat.

Yes I am ashamed not with you but with Siagalph.

For you we are sending Jihadis to take your Dhoti off forever so I can see you naked in Park.

Naked aggressor.

Shankar #

I think you are right.

Since we Pakistanis in majority are prone to look at our Governement and its action with cynicism, we expect the same from Indians. But I think whatever people now say about Nehru, he put the foundation of India and delivered to its people. And probably people in India have not only respect but high expectations from Government especially the rising middle class.

As you mentioned regarding my remarks about Pakistan. I would appreciate Indian if he does the same but with justice. Not that his action in Kashmir is justified and there is no poverty in India and Pakistan is a hell.

I have worked with lot of Indians and I even know the caliber of highly touted education. (Few are off course superb). Any way to cut it short, let me relate to you my experience.

There was a certain doctor Kaul from Kashmir during my residency. We were very good colleague. He was a very hearty fellow and we would sit frequently talking and joking. After he came back from India during his vacation after his marriage his behaviour was changed and would not talk as before. I thought it might be due to his marriage. As some people change after marriage. But if I see now in retrospect, I can also think that it might be due to situation in Kashmir. And this makes me sad.

ROmair #

If you don`t forget your past post yet, you will remember you were trying to prove that Imran Khan and Pervez Musharraf (alongwith Dr Ata and Dr. Hoodbhoy) have a bright future waiting for them in foreign countries, but they are staying back in Pakistan because of the love of their country.

I know HoodBhoy personally. And your observation regarding him is wrong, I suppose. He will try to change society for better whereever he is. And he is fulfilling his own personality to its full extent in Pakistan. (It is not because of love of country per se).

As far as SKMH, it is a good work. But still Pakistan is providing him the opportunity and not other way round. Ask the people who made it posible. While during his election compaign on helicopter he even slapped one person who was trying to ask him some question. For SKMH he should be grateful to countless millions of Pakistanis who contributed to it . Can you give me some figure how much he contributed himself. I think you should reasses the meaning of word philanthropy. It is not opportunism as far as I know. I can tell you the name of philanthropist who donate in multi-crores every years and no body knows them that they are doing this.

And same goes with Pervez Musharraf. Which foreign country is waiting for him to be hailed as All in All (CEO) of their country.

Although I agree with your statement that 500,000 guns can be fired on his one command. Who knows it better than Pakistanis who have passed most of their lives under this 500,000 guns.

Dionysus #162

I fully agree with you on this.

In 1993 in Iran almost all of foreign specialist doctor would come from India on a salary equal to between 25,000-40,000 of Pakistani Rupees. Pakistani and Bangladeshi specialist were rare.

While specialist in Pakistan make this much or more, I don`t know about Bangladesh.

In General Practice the situation was equal for Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi.

The situation might have improved in India. But considering the number of doctors produced there I suppose it will be worse.

Another observation of mine is that. Doctors who went to Iran whether specialist or General Practioner were mostly from Kashmir and South India. In America the doctors are mostly from Dehli and Bombay.

It is just an observation of mine and in no way should be taken as a statistically accurate thing.

Also with current prosperity of south, I suppose south will be contributing to emigration of doctors to America in more numbers.

Ylh # In response to Naqshbandi.

Continue to hammer these Islamist.

In 1970`s when we were talking about Feudalism and Capitalism and the their power Old Naqshbandi type used to fight with us regarding sanctity of Private property in Islam and why Feudalism and Capitalism is good to the detriment of people.

Now they are talking about curse of Feudalism and Capitalism when it is now highly entrenched.

Now the power is highly entrenched. What we need is Government of the people for the people and by the people to take care of people`s business who elected them.

Naqshbandi, I ask you this question. Did prophet PBUH rode camel and used sword because of his time because there was no car and gun powder or not?. If you understand this simple analogy you will realize that our time demands new approach and not 1000 years or 1400 years old approach to which you are so fond of.

naqshbandi

...... and another reason i can`t stand the thought of shariah being implemented in pakistan is because of what hazrat bertrand russel (RA) said more than fifty years ago .......... he was able to say what he did and get away with his life and limb intact because he lived in that terrible place of your birth that you seem to despise so much ........ he said,

``There is one very serious defect to my mind in xxxxx`s moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. xxxx certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence. You do not, for instance find that attitude in Socrates. You find him quite bland and urbane toward the people who would not listen to him; and it is, to my mind, far more worthy of a sage to take that line than to take the line of indignation. You probably all remember the sorts of things that Socrates was saying when he was dying, and the sort of things that he generally did say to people who did not agree with him``

........... this argument is sort of compelling for those of us who are sceptical about the tooth fairy and sheik bin baaz`s flat earth theory and flying horses and the ability of the pir of uch sharif to impregnate barren women by walking on them with his stump of a leg ........

.......... may the good lord and the nsync boys protect my young and impressionable daughters from horrible young men like you ... amen .... and may the lord save your parents the agony and anguish of seeing you wasting your life sleeping in masajid the world over with thirty dirty old men .... and may they never see you return in a box from chechniya or kashmir ... amen

urstruly

......... i am still waiting for your reply on why you think seth dawood and mian mansha should be thrown out of pakistan .........

.......... i just received the latest issue of isalmic horizons - name one muslim country where a non muslim organization can utter such blasphemy ....... heck they won`t even allow a non-muslim to set a foot inside the city limits of Mecca ....

.......... as for brother naqshbandi - i think i know him : he is the one who gets all hot and bothered by britney spears and then complains about the lack of morality, takes off from work for a two hour juma prayer and then complains about discrimination when not promoted, gets ssi and state subsidized housing for his parents and then complains about the high tax rate, wants freedom of religion in the US but wants the shariah implemented in pakistan ......... now after being been jilted by the welsh bar-maid wants to to pakistan to find a virgin to add to his harem............

An extremely wise person wrote, and silenced me :

As a good Muslim, Muhammad Omar is not doing anything that is not sanctioned by Islam. It is not a medieval act unless one regards Islam as a medieval religion and not the ``removal of jahiliyat`` from the world. If we believe Islam to be medieval religion, we should say so instead of beating around the bush.

All good intentions apart, the first step in solving a problem is to identify the cause the problem. Blame the cause -- not the effect.

- Arun the Infidelator, who is henceforth going to blame the cause and not the effect.

Urstruly, this is the ``miracle`` by which nothing but Muslims are left on huge swathes of this earth. What sorry creatures you are !

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Afghanistan-Buddha.html

February 26, 2001

Taliban: Statues Must Be Destroyed

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 6:14 p.m. ET

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- Afghanistan`s hard-line Taliban rulers ordered the destruction Monday of all statues, including a pair of monumental 5th century Buddhas towering over 100 feet tall and carved out of a mountainside.

The order came from the Taliban`s supreme leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar, who issued an edict declaring statues, including the ancient Buddhas, as insulting to Islam.

``Because God is one God and these statues are there to be worshipped, and that is wrong, they should be destroyed so that they are not worshipped now or in the future,`` Omar said in his edict, published by the Taliban-run Bakhtar News Agency.

-Arun the Infidelator

Godot,

Inshallah!

Yasser Hamdani

re asif n`s

``why cannot Pakistan enforce shar`iat inside its own borders and yet be a full member of the international community?``

I will take the question head on. The reason, to which you may be oblivious, is that the world has changed significantly since the time of the late Mard-e-Momin Allama Ziaul Haq. In the darkes days of the Cold War the West was ready to overlook the transgressions of its dictatorial allies. With the coming down of the Berlin Wall, there has been a constant re-assertion, intellectually and morally, in the civilized world of the fundamental inviolability of God given rights.This ethic is gaining ground by the day on both sides of the Atlantic. Soon there will come a day when a country, notwithstanding its claims of sovereignty, will not be able to have any intercourse with the civilized world unless this country follows certain principles of fundamental fairness. This evolving consensus will require all those who wish to join in at the table of human civilization to adhere to the basic ideas of representative democracy, pluralism, civil liberties a la the Univ Declaration of HR, free economies and equality before law. For obvious reasons most such principles stand at sharp divergence with the sharia as known today. Hence, Pakistan with sharia cannot be a Pakistan fully accepted in the international community.

Oh, please save the lecture about Islamic human rights- I know the drill about how it is superior and gives more rights and the rest of the nonsense. Feel free to join in if you have something different to add.

Tahmed#172

Hilarious, I liked your ``new style`` of writing.

Re: ylh, #167

Yasser, I remember you once wrote to me that, after your studies here in the US, you`ll go back to Pakistan. I hope you do. To me, you, and young people like you, are Pakistan`s hope. Pakistan needs people like you. I know you can, and will, make a difference. Follow Jinnah`s steps and Pakistan will be a great country, a country that we all be proud of. Make it happen, Yasser.

Re: tahmad321, #172

Stick with English. Math is not your subject.

Re: Ras Siddiqui, #170

``The overall rankings on the quality of life within South Asia are as follows: Colombo 121, Beijing 141, Islamabad 146, Mumbai 163, Karachi 164, Lahore 166, Bangalore 175 and New Delhi and Chennai at 176.``

Did anyone tell the Chinese that Beijing is now a part of South Asia, or is it still a secret?

Dear Hamidm

Although your posts are nothing more than a broken record (with a sound of a Paataa Dhol)which you manage to play somehow time and again but sometimes you do get a laugh out of me. I am dying to see your comments on the Pity board on the ensuing discussin. Be careful, i reckon you have a pink posterior, as you mentioned in some of your post. I wanna see who is salivating.

Godot #165 I guess I have to explain everything.

First Law: When there is no crisis, the mullahs become active by starting a Shia-Sunni fight. When there is a real threat to the country - external threats, floods, draught (like last year in Baluchistan) - the mullahs are nowhere to be seen. That is the reson for the inverse relationship in the equation which I guess I should have explained. You may call this a Hypothesis if you wish, and not a Law, but dont reject it without thinking.

You ask: ``What are those sectarian killings and general lawlessness then? Is that because today`s Pakistan is close to being very peaceful and orderly?``

While things look bad for Pakistan today, name one crisis of the kind we faced in 1965 or 1971 or throughout the 1980`s under that one-man crisis Zia.

Second Law:

`` Pakistan`s Future is golden when you wake up.``

That is not what the Second Law says: The Magnitude of National Crises in the future, MNC(t+1) can (and probably will) in fact be very high. Only thing is: the problems we face will be different from the ones you worry about today. We are still worrying about issues of 1947 (2-nation theory etc.) when all the issues we will run into from here on lie in the future.

Third Law:

``Since MNC in t+1 is close to zero - leads to - MPW at t = 0.``

You ar wrong: MNC(t+1) is not close to zero (as explained above), the coefficient C is close to zero.

Since you are having some trouble with math, I have summarized the implications of the Second and Third Laws as follows: The problems you worry about today wont be the problems you will encounter in future (this is true not just for Pakistanis, but for everyone). However, you will encounter a different set of problems (that no one is worrying about today). So you are doing the right amount of worrying, but about the wrong things.

PS I dont want to say the mullahs are no threats or that they should not be dealt with as power hungry individuals whose views are in violation of the Quran. All I am saying is not to allow their loudspeakers and gun-toting detract us from the real problems we do face in Pakistan and which will cause tomorrow`s crises.

asif naqshbandi

you ask ``if you are a Muslim why you do NOT want full Shar`iah implemented in Pakistan``

............. the answer is simple : for the same reason that I don`t want to ride a camel, or trade oil changes for a copy of windows, or have four wives, or marry off my daughter at 9, or execute POWs, or burn down interest paying banks, or amputate the hands of petty theives, or go to war because someone didn`t appoint my son as the caliph, or execute someone because they insulted a long dead prophet, or pay a special tax because my last name is masih, or banish women to the harem, or have the fashion police beat up my wife because she dared to show a wisp or hair, or have to drive my daughters everywhere, or own slaves, or splash water everywhere and make a mess in the bathroom five times a day, or give up toothpaste for maswak, or belch after eating halwa, or shout takbeer instead of clapping, or hike up my shalwar to bare my ankles, or beat up on the soccer team because they wore shorts, or sacrifice my son because i had a bad dream, or kick my concubine out of the house because my wife objects, or, for that matter even have a concubine, .............. phew !................. you want more reasons ......................... or have to recite the dua-i-qanoot when being interviewed for a house surgeons position, or being beaten up by the police because i want to have lunch during ramadhan, or being told that i cannot have sex with the lights on, or being told what to think ..... but most of all i don`t want to ride a camel or subsist on dates !

Interesting!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1191000/1191067.stm

The problems of Pakistan are many but .....

From The Times of India today:

Delhi, Chennai worst cities to live in: UK survey
LONDON: Delhi and Chennai are among the worst cities to live in, according to a new survey on the quality of life in cities around the world. In the survey of 215 cities around the world, Delhi comes in at 176th, the same position as Chennai. That does not place it that far above Iraqi capital Baghdad, which is ranked 212th.

Pakistan capital Islamabad ranked 146 is somewhat better in the survey conducted by human resources firm William M. Mercer. The survey released here on Monday gives the top three spots to Vancouver in Canada, Zurich in Switzerland and Vienna in Austria. Brazaville in Congo is at the bottom of the table with Khartoum just above at position 214.

The survey is based on ten criteria that cover the political, economic and social environment, medical facilities, education, recreation and transport.

Chennai emerges as one of the most boring cities in the world with some of the poorest recreation facilities. Even Baghdad does better than it in this respect.

Transportation facilities in Pakistani cities seem much better than in Indian cities. Islamabad is found to be almost as good as New York.

The overall rankings on the quality of life within South Asia are as follows: Colombo 121, Beijing 141, Islamabad 146, Mumbai 163, Karachi 164, Lahore 166, Bangalore 175 and New Delhi and Chennai at 176.

Sydney is ranked seventh, San Francisco 19, Tokyo 19, Paris 35, Singapore 40, London 40, Birmingham 59, Rome 69, Dubai 81, Kuala Lumpur 87, and Bangkok 113.

The survey makes separate lists for recreation facilities and for public transport and traffic. In recreation terms, it shows Delhi in the 165th position. Comparatively, Beijing is ranked 144th and Baghdad 204th.

In this area, Los Angeles is on top, along with Sydney, Washington and Abu Dhabi. Following are the points awarded to selected cities by way of recreation facilities, with the base figure of 100.00 taken as New York: Madras 23.5, Bangalore 27.5, Islamabad 44.5, Karachi 46.85, Lahore 52.5, Delhi 44.0, Mumbai 47.5, London 96.5, Bangkok 81.5, Colombo 65.85, Dubai 69.5 and Baghdad 25.5.

When it comes to public transport and traffic, Delhi ranked 182. In that respect Baghdad is better at 153 and Beijing at 129. But Delhi is better than Mexico City, which is ranked 212.

Again with New York taken as the standard with an award of 100, the rankings in transport for some cities are: New Delhi 60.00, Mumbai 67.5, Bangalore and Madras 34.5, Abu Dhabi 115.92, Singapore 147.81, Baghdad 79.5, Bangkok 70.76, Beijing and Cairo 91.5, Dubai 123.88, Colombo 83.91, Dhaka 41.18, London 122.22, Islamabad 98.5, Karachi 91.77 and Lahore

Asif Naqashbandi

Please do not use word ``liberal`` when talking about such people in the context of Pakistan- a better word would be ``pseudo-liberal``. These people dont even know the alif bay of liberalism. Lets not insult the notion of liberalism like this which is one of the noblest path a man can follow.

Dionysus # 162

I think you got it all wrong. Indian government and other Hindus at Chowk make these claims not to convince us but to convince themselves and one billion miserable, half-naked, hungary, creatures, that the money they are spending on weapons and 700K incompetant disgrace of an Army who is out there to murder a few hundered freedom fighters in Kashmir, is well justified.

There is a great lesson to be learned from Russia. Weapons do not make a nation a superpower it is the bread and butter that goes into the stomach of the very down trodden which makes a nation proud and strong. Even if a dog goes hungary for a day in a country which calls itself a superpower there is nothing that can stop its collapse-just like Russia. When such ``superpowers`` implode they become nothing more than used condoms lying on the street which nobody even wants to step upon.

I am glad that Indians have not learned that lesson from Russia.

Godot,

Yes the beard of Pakistan can be shaved, and no the Pakistan that you left is not dead, though undoubtedly in ICU.

Let us join hands to resurrect the Modern Liberal Pakistan, these murderers have to kill.

Yasser Hamdani

To YLH and all the other people who foam at the mouth when they encounter a ``fundo`` (I`ve never been able to find anyone who could give me a good explanation of what that exactly means; if it means a Muslim who wishes to follow Islam as it has been traditionally understood for 1000 years and not re-form it to make it more palatable to Western concepts then I`m afraid all the Imams and Muslims and Sufis would be ``fundoes``)--please tell me, pray, has it not occured to your liberal hearts that the so-called Islamists actually have the best interests of Pakistan at heart? You might not agree with what they propose, but do you really believe that the JUP and the Minhaj ul Qur`an and DawateIslami and even the other religious groups whom i have some ideological differences with (like JI) do not want to see Pakistan prosper? The goal is the same (a prosperous Pakistan) and it is only the metohds which are different for different pakistanis whether liberal, religious or communist! We just think that Islam, strictly enforced, based on Hanafi fiqh would solve the problems we face. It does not mean that all the religious parties want is for everyone to be sitting in the mosque all day praying and reading the qur`an. After all, Islam encourages learning and education...why cannot Pakistan enforce shar`iat inside its own borders and yet be a full member of the international community?

Infact I believe that feudalism-one of the biggest problems in our country--and illiteracy [THE biggest problem] and poverty can ONLY be solved under a shariat system because under shar`iat everyone is equal. If it is incumbent upon you you HAVE to pay zakat (even if it is taken forcibly)..imagine how much revenue would be gained if everyuone who currently avoids tax was forced to pay it. And no one but a strict religious regime (with an army which backs it--otherwise u have a civil war situation a la Algeria) can enforce such policies.

Another question to all those who want a secular pakistan and not a pakistan which has shar`iah as its Constitution. If such is to be the case, I honestly cannot see why we bothered separating from India then...we might as well join up again and have one big secular Hindustan instead of a large secular India and a secular Pakistan. What do you say? That way, there`d be no more bloodshed, no more arguing over Kashmir...except i`m not sure if most indians would want you back no matter HOW secularised you become...Personally, if i was given a choice betwen a secular india and secular pakistan or one big secular Hindustan I`d opt for the latter; of course, I`d prefer an Islamic Pakistan living side to side with India on a peaceful basis.

Another question: it is the Islamists who are daily sacrificing their lives in Kashmir to further the foreign policy objectives of the government (whichever government is in power).You people are happy to let then take the bullets but you dont want them to partake of the cake...

I would like some serious answers please and none of the ``you are a fanatic`` type comments as answers. (You can make those comments if it makes you happy but please also answer the q`s.)

Finally, can anyone tell me, seriously, if you are a Muslim why you do NOT want full Shar`iah implemented in Pakistan. And please don`t say becoz it`ll be a mirror-image of afghanistan as you know the two countries are totally different.

What are your fundamental objections to it? Is it because you think religion and politics should be separate? If so, where did you get that concept from...

Re: tahmed321, #159

Your First Law:

1/MNC means higher the Magnitude of National Crises (MNC) the smaller the number - leads to - higher the MNC, lower the Religious Violence (RV). And lower the MNC, ie, no crises, higher the RV! What are those sectarian killings and general lawlessness then? Is that because today`s Pakistan is close to being very peaceful and orderly?

Your Second Law:

Since C is too small to even matter, the National Crises tomorrow = 0. Tomorrow - leads to - Nothing to worry about it today - leads to - Today`s crisis for ``liberal`` Pakistanis is just a bad dream - leads to - Pakistan`s Future is golden when you wake up.

Your Third Law:

Since MNC in t+1 is close to zero - leads to - MPW at t = 0.

I hope you did not major in math!

I think you have been drinking that cold orange juice...with vodka in it! All screwed up!

Tahmad 321

Have you been sniffing something funny lately?

Reply 138

Fuzair

An interesting but sour perspective. More appealing - where everyone rises to&beyond their level of competency - a la Peter ``Plus`` Principle - or does it exist already?? Thanks for spreading the wealth.

aicha

shankar #139

No, you don`t get it all. For the last 12 years India has been selling itself to the West as the champion and defender of secularism and democracy valiantly struggling against the world-threatening menace of Islamic fundementalism (phew!). Indian propagandists have desperately been trying to persuade the West that the future of the whole of human civilization depends on their support in defeating millitants in Kashmir. Yet after 12 years of tireless effort you haven`t managed to elicit a SINGLE mild rebuke against Pakistan for our support of the Kashmiri War of Liberation and not one Western democracy recognizes Kashmir as a part of India. So please spare us this `India is just so Big and Bad` crap. It doesn`t impress anyone.

In the last year alone my (relatively small) group has employed three Indian research engineers. Two are products of IITs and one is from the University of Pune. Smart guys with excellent academic backgrounds and as good as anything coming out of Western universities. Well done India for putting in place such a fine higher educational system!

But please, please don`t me give me this crap about India being such a f--king paradise that no Indian wants to leave it. I know better. These guys have told me themselves that in India they would be earning $40 a month in a crappy little progamming job and that no way are they going back to live in India. Indians are just as desperate to get into the West as Pakistanis. If you`re going to use outward migration as the yardstick to measure success then India is just as big a failure as Pakistan. The only difference is your English press doesn`t make a song and dance about it, unlike the inveterate whingers and cry-babies in our English language press.

Godot #154 ``Am I right, is there no hope?``

Make yourself some refreshing orange juice (with ice), turn on some classical music, flop down on an easy chair, close your eyes, take a deep breath, and relax with tahmed`s Laws of Paki Politics:

First Law:

RV(t) = 1/MNC(t) where

RV(t) = Religious Violence (dependent factor)

MNC(t) = Magnitude of National Crises (exogenous factor)

t = current time period

Second Law:

MPR(t) = C times MNC(t+1)

where

MPR(t) = Magnitude of Problems we worry about today that will be actually Realized in t+1

C = Very low valued absolute number (between 0 and 0.0000000001)

Now you have relaxed enough, so I present you with the Third Law so you dont get too comfortable:

Third Law:

MPW(t) = MNC(t+1)

where

MPW(t) is total Magnitude of Problems you Worry about today

krashid #127: The change of nick was because the Chowk scripts seem to be unable to recognize my old one, half the time.

I always have difficulty understanding your posts. They seem to start out by insulting other repliers, and then end up with insulting Pakistanis (some of whom are actually trying to make a difference in Pakistan). Perhaps the key to success for Pakistanis is to attempt to insult as many people as possible, who do not agree with one`s own point of view. Then again, perhaps I cannot understand your replies because English is my second language, and thus I cannot comprehend what you are attempting to express in your replies.

``I don`t know what Imran Khan would do at this age in a foreign country. (I don`t think he can now even ask for a date). His hobbies these days are travelling and asking for ``Chanda`` for Hospital.``

Considering the fact that Imran Khan was given a special passport by the UN, he could walk into any country in the world. I hope the day never arrives in Pakistan where philanthrapists end up being insulted, but perhaps that day has already arrived. I am much more scared of people who insult philanthrapy, then I am of any religious fanatic. Since philanthrapy is perhaps the greatest of human actions.

I do not know whether you have had a chance to visit or work with the cancer hospital Imran Khan has built. I also do not know whether you have witnessed the dedication with whihc it has been built. Travelling the world and, ``asking for Chanda`` takes a lot of courage and hard work. Don`t knock it, until you have tried it. The fact that Imran Khan cannot, ``ask for a date`` is really his personal business. Why does that bother you so much?

``Which country is waiting to put an army man on the position of All in All of a country. He did it on the barrell of gun.``

This is partially true. Actually at the time of the current coup, literally everyone in Pakistan was begging the Army to kick out Nawaz Sharif, specially since the Shariah Bill was about to become law. That is why not a single person out of 130 million came out on the streets in support of the govt. that had been kicked out. Army takeovers in Pakistan have generally been welcomed by the general populace. The only problem has been that once the Army has come into power (a better phrase is once the COAS comes into power), it/he never leaves. And doesn`t do too much while he is in power.

I think Musharraf will leave in three years, and is trying to do his best to solve Pakistan`s problems. Pakistan has always had dictators as rulers, at least during my lifetime. Bhutto, Zia, Nawaz Sharif, Benazir and Musharraf were and are all dictators. Some were civilian dictators and others were military dictators; but dictators all the same. Out of all of these, Musharraf is the only one who hasn`t gone after the civilian population either through personal and party corruption, or through forcing his own religious or liberal beliefs down everyone`s throats. He has also put together a cabinet that consists of professionals (an unknown concept in Pakistan). And this is easily the most honest govt. in the history of the country.

I don`t know how many problems they will be able to solve. But they are still better than the other options at the moment. I do think that if they leave in three years, and put in some sort of checks and balances to ensure that the incoming politicians cannot go back to their own merry ways, Pakistan should see quite a bit of improvement in seven to eight years or so.

The other option is to hope against hope that a knight in shining armor will come to lead Pakistan, having been elected through an ideal democratic process, and will be able to motivate the power groups in Pakistan, like the feudals, the religious fanatics, the defaulting businessmen etc. to reform their ways, instead of forcing them to. I don`t see that knight on the horizon anywhere. So it is better to make do with the best of what is available.

Of course, the final option is to sit and insult anyone and everyone, including the people who are trying to put up cancer hospitals in Pakistan and trying to reform the systems in Pakistan. Cynicism and insults do play well to the peanut gallery, but I do not know of any situation, institution or country that has been reformed through cynicism and insults.

Zahra #157:

Thank you for the site. After reading the following two sections we come back to the core question, don`t we?

rgds,

t

_____________________________________________-

Pakistan: Law and regulation

A. Regulatory issues
Traditionally the state has taken centre stage in the Pakistan`s economic development. The growing Islamic influence on the state will however mean that the Internet will not be truly free. It is not clear if the government will allow private ISPs to chose their own international gateways for fear of losing control.

B. Intellectual property law
There is as yet no specific legislation protecting intellectual property rights in an e-commerce setting. However, Pakistan does not have a very good record of protecting computer software and piracy is common.

C. E-contract readiness
Given the extremely low value of e-commerce in the country, the government has not decided on strategies to deal with the Internet.

D. Censorship
The government is keen to ensure that `Islamic morals` remain untouched. After the military coup, the government is especially interested to ensure that the Internet does not become a means of spreading sedition.

E. Consumer protection
There is no legislation specifically outlining consumer rights in e-commerce transactions.

F. Compliance
There is no legislation specifically related to e-commerce contract disputes.


and


Pakistan: taxation

A. Basis of taxation

The government has yet to establish how it will deal with issues of taxation arising from e-commerce.

B. Classification of e-commerce transactions

Similarly, no definition has been established for what constitutes an e-commerce transaction

C. Compliance and enforcement issues

Compliance and enforcement has traditionally been a serious problem in Pakistan. Intellectual property violations are common and the law is often broken with impunity. Enforcement has been a problem because of a corrupt bureaucracy and a high level of collusion between private enterprises and the government.

A slight diversion! An interesting read.

http://www.ebusinessforum.com/index.asp?layout=debi_country_home&country_id=PK&country=Pakistan&channelid=6&title=Doing+e-business+in+Pakistan

Krashid # 142

So what are the questions-I am still waiting.

Anil

Thank you for the invite, I am looking forward to it, and thanks for the encouragement.

Yasser Hamdani

For all those liberal (in the ``Western`` sense) Pakistanis who love Pakistan and whose hearts bleed for it (such as hamidm and Hassan Gardezi, and not the blinds with eyes), I have a few questions:

Can bearded Pakistan be shaved? If yes, then how? If no, is this then the end of Pakistan I knew and grew in from about the mid 60s to the end of 1973 when I left it? Or that Pakistan is already dead never to be resurrected? Am I right, is there no hope?

Stop the genocide in Pakistan.

``Multan (Pakistan), Feb. 26. (Reuters): Masked gunmen killed a Shiite Muslim activist at a village in the Central Pakistan province of Punjab today in what seemed to be the latest incident in a wave of sectarian violence, police said.

They said Tanvir Shah was driving home from Vehari district in southern Punjab when two unidentified gunmen on a motorcycle sprayed bullets at his car with automatic weapons.

The gunmen fled after the shooting, which follows similar attacks recently between militants from the majority Sunni and the minority Shiite sects of Islam.

Unidentified gunmen killed a Shiite religious leader and two other Shiites in separate shootings four days ago.

Hundreds of people have been killed in recent years in clashes between Sunni and Shiite militants, whose followers disagree over the interpretation of some Islamic beliefs.

Police have arrested hundreds of Sunni activists in Punjab province in the past few days to avert possible violence after the scheduled hanging of a Sunni activist on Wednesday for the murder of an Iranian official in 1990.``

ylh #135, ``What the hell do you have against Rutgers... I invite you all to visit me at Rutgers New Brunswick and see for yourself how good/bad it is!``

They`re just jealous. Ignore kardo ;)

re: Tahmad321 :

Jagdeep strikes you as a sikh name. fair enough. But I have heard names : Jagdeep Kumar, jagdeep shah and jagdeep singh.

KRashid,

Let me tell you the genesis of my recent ire. Its been URstruly`s frequent posting of hindu genocide in Kashmir--even when the articles had NOTHING to do with Kashmir.

I have been very critical of India`s behaviour in Kashmir. I have REPEATEDLY said that Kashmiris should get independance. Also, I have had many fights with hindu bigots on Chowk. Now,if you just scan a post written by an Indian because ``all you guys are bigotted`` , then its your problem, not mine.

Having said that, what pissed me off is URstuly`s repeated pious remonstrations of how wonderful & noble Pakistan is & how right & just their role in Kashmir is. To top it off, he justifies West Pakistan`s behaviour in 71 against the Bengalis! I think thats a load of BULL. Then he has the balls to tell hindus to fall on their knees & beg Pakistan & Kashmir for mercy & forgiveness.

The purpose of my telling you guys how the Arabs & Iranians are reacting to your propaganda is that they are not buying this ONE BIT. That DOES NOT mean they are buying Indian propaganda either.India & the other Islamic countries are practising realpolitick. Why are they continuing diplomatic & trade relations with us? Ideologically, both sides have very different views. However, India & the rest of the Islamic world has decided to put their ideology on the shelf & continue to do business.

Obviously, the other Islamic countries think its beneficial to have trade & diplomatic relations with India. The same cant be said about them & Israel. Why?!--I really dont have a clue (but I`m sure some Indians will enlighten us about that). India doesnt preach to them & they dont preach to India. So our relations are good purely from a pragmatic (not ideological) point of view. So, in a way, they are just as much ``bagal mein churi`` as we hindus are.

When you accuse me of inciting Pakistanis against Arabs--you are giving me too much credit:) I`m just an armchair desi who has left India more than 20 years ago; with no expertise in IR. What the hell difference does it make to you guys what I think? Obviously, India or the Gulf govts dont give a s *it what I think or that I even exist. I`m just beginning to understand what our resident expert FerozK has been saying, all along.

I used to accuse Feroze of suffering from clinical depression when he would say Pakistan`s future is screwed & that the fundos are going to take over, sooner or later. He said that Pakistanis have been screwed so often that sooner or later something is going to snap. People just cant keep getting screwed indefinitly before they rise & say enough is enough. When that revolution does come it will be a fundo revolution. Pakistan will get off the train & become an inward looking isolationist country, like Burma.

Lastly, this is a very curious human phenomenon. When Indians say the SAME thing that many Pakistanis say, we are Slammed about PREACHING. Let me give you an example by quoting you:

{{{I see with every passing day increase in debt, increase in illiteracy, increase in defense spending, increase in denying the rights to people, increase in intolerance, increase in suicide. If your criteria of progress revolves around this then Pakistan is beating all the countries of world except Nigeria.}}}

If you as a Pakistani can say this,its fine. BUT , if I as an INDIAN says the same thing, I`m accused of preaching.

Go figure!

#93 & #91

Méré bhaii, aap toe l`rr`aii pé hii u`tt`r aa`ié! Shant r`hee`a. Anger is injurious to one`s health! I wish to see you around for a long, long time.

I suggest that you take a glass of cold water. Pass it, the water, that is. Then drink another glass of cold water.

Now write. Read it when finished. Re-read it and see if it makes any sense. If it doesn`t, pass water and take another glass of cold water.

Repeat this aml [routine] till it, the letter, that is, makes sense to you. When it does, show it to a literate friend. On his/her advice mail it or rewrite it after you pass that water.

Before starting to re-write take a glass of....

P.S. Your composition and grammar leave room for improvement. T`wjh`o fr`ma`ee`a. Spellings may be the victim of not having mastered typing. I do that too.

Krashid and Zahra,

Yes...Everyone can see that Indians share a great deal more in their thinking than do Pakistanis.

This came as a surprise to me, at first. I now realize that what I had assumed to be the common beliefs of all Pakistanis were in fact mostly the sustaining principles of Pakistan`s Mullah-Military Complex and its minions. It is the common misfortune of many intelligent, free-thinking Pakistanis and the rest of the non-Afghanistan world that the Mullah-Military complex is all that has come to matter in Jinnah`s Pakistan. So to an outsider, Pakistan - despite all her amazing bahmeds and tahmeds - appears as nothing more than a sinking house of dogma and war.

Do you people have any theories on why Indians today have far more developed a common mind than do Pakistanis? Is it centralized brainwashing by the central government? Is it a conspiracy hatched by all Indians? Is it Brahminical tyranny on the rest of us all? Is it the well-known evil nature of all Hindus and all things Hindu? The treacherous Zee TV people who some Pakistanis claim (at least on this board) put them to sleep? A grand western design to contain the magnificent and ever-glorious China and tar all Muslims? American hegemony? Christian fear of the brave and dedicated people of Pakistan? A natural outcome of the beauteous and misunderstood Jihad?

May be, all of those things?

Re: Zahra

Do you take Fridays off and work on weekends?

Re: krashid

``I am ashamed of my role...``

You should be ashmamed...you have a lot to be ashamed of. Bigotry, bias, ignorance, and poor communication skills.

PS Which park are you living in these days?

hamidm,

I am also waiting for the true islamic republic of pakistan to come up wit qartaba as the capital. I would like to visit pakistan at the invitation of ylh along with some of my friends from kerala, they are muslims, and they prctice the matriarchal system. They are muslims and woman is the boss of the house and I was telling them about honour killing and they felt that to be completely unislamic. Of course, asif will say, they have been corrupted by the kafirs, what else can one expect, sitting in faisalabad, with a name like asif bin al ..

Jagdeep #13

Dear Jagdeep:

I will be coming over to Europe for the next two weeks to set up operations of our software company. I would spend a few days in London, and probably drive over to meet you and the family.

My bone marrow transplant, so far, has gone well. The doctors at Stanford are really good. After almost nine months, I have gained my energies back.

YLH #134 & 135

Daer YLH:

You have a bigger role to play than to get in argument with fundamentalists of any shade and colors. You might like to analyze the fundamentalism as a successful phenomenon (there are too many who have analyzed it as a failure) in all South Asian countries.

My nephew runs a successful high tech company in New Brunswick area, and my daughter is a student at Columbia University. I do visit my daughter, my nephew and his lovely wife quite frequently. On my next visit, I would love to invite and take you out for a dinner.

ANIL

re krashid #130

You may already know that I hold the late Brigadier(a major in 1971) Siddiq Saliq in high regard. His ``Witness to Surrender`` (same book that you mention) was as honest as can be expected from a serving officer on the general staff. On an aside, if you don`t already realize, I don`t assign blame wholesale on Pakistan. Au contraire, my friend, there ought to be a trial of only those military personnel accused of crimes. My own regular write-ups in Bangladeshi newspapers make me wonder if the Awami League police will be waiting for me at the airport on my next visit to Dhaka.

No, poetry alone cannot change the perspective of the likes of Asif N and F_K. But I am hoping it goes to engender a sense of shame in them some day.

Re ylh

Good response to Asif N. Nothing against Rutgers myself: very good friend of mine in the Peace Corps program there. But it is in commie-lib People`s Republic of New Jersey after all :):) It would be a better school if it were in the United States :):):)

Urstruly #95

So you think those were not questions. Let me try to put it in MORE question form to which you seem to be accustomed.

1- What was the reason of killing, rape and torture of Bengalis in 1971 by West Pakistan?

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2- Why was East Pakistan ruled from West Pakistan from 1947-1971?

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2A- Are Bengalis human and Muslim?

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3- Who is responsible to take care of Afghan People?

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4- Why Taliban are shaving head for wearing shorts and jailing for not growing beard instead of doing something positive for their people?

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5_ Why Taliban are fighting their own people?

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6- Does Shariah prohibit Taliban from doing some betterment for their people?

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I asked the question in other format before as a matter of discussion. But probably you are accustomed to Q&A format so I have put few questions out of many which are in those posts. Would you now care to answer.

ROmair #127

I think you better write with your previous name.

Name change has a marked effect on your skills.

Anyway you know some name are ``Saad`` and some ``Manhoos``

I also think your specicialization is Kashmir. Beyond that your analysis is at most pathetic particularly with your new name.

Your mention of Imran Khan and Pervez Musharraf in the category of people for whom the whole world is waiting except they decided to stay in Pakistan is beyond comprehension.

I don`t know what Imran Khan would do at this age in a foreign country. (I don`t think he can now even ask for a date). His hobbies these days are travelling and asking for ``Chanda`` for Hospital.

As for Pervez Musharraf. Which country is waiting to put an army man on the position of All in All of a country. He did it on the barrell of gun.

What are you talking. You are comparing these self proclaimed Messiahs who probably have nothing to offer to foreign countries to people who are striving hard in our unjust system for the survival of their families.

HamidM #119

I am also wondering why Urstruly mentioned this article. Because it only shows that corrupt practices have only changed hands slightly without a little bit impact on corruption itself.

In retrospect, it makes my impression strong that we need Governemnt of people for the people and by the people to take care of their concerns in the form of education and economic activity and a better future.

I also agree with your statement whether Urstruly has read this article or not.

But I am glad that he mentioned this article.

Dionysus,

{{Do you see what I`m getting at?}}

I`m beginning to see bro! What your saying is that Pakistan is hopelessly isolated in the world. However, Pakistan taken up the self righteous duty to fight for the rights of Kashmiris. Of course, Inshallah, you will definitely prevail. If you guys think you can bleed India into submission, youre peeing in a headwind!.

Keep thumping your chest pal. I`m really amused by Pakistani testesterone & self delusion, I`ll give you that. Pakistan is under the delusion that it single handedly defeated the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Let me burst your bubble pal. Pakistan could`nt have done SQUAT without US military & economic aid. Too bad that the Soviets finally withdrew. Free lunch has stopped with the cold war. Now you got to eat the crap of the ``blowback`` from that war.

My heart bleeds for you. Pakistanis cry that US abandoned them after they served their purpose. This ones a beauty--a while ago one Pakistani on Chowk cursed the US for treating Pakistan like a used condom. Too bad; when a country behaves like a condom, it will be used like one. You guys werent crying that much when the aid was pouring in. All your glorious leaders & their cronies squandered that aid & left the common man in Pakistan with just his d *ck in his hands. At least you cant blame that mess on hindu treachery.

Now you think that a corrupt, bankrupt Pakistan will rise like a phoenix from the ashes & take on India single handedly. Wipe that testesterone of your face & see reality for a change. Pakistan is a country struggling to breathe economically. She is like a heroine addict who is going through withdrawals because the spigot of aid that used to bail her out time & again has suddenly been cut off. You can barely keep your country afloat & you want to rescue the Kashmiris!

I`m not saying India is a bed of roses. In many ways we may be in the same gutter as you. However, I`ve never seen such a surge of optimism since liberalisation. Many of the young IT workers I`ve met in the US dont want a green card even if it was given to them. I see these Indians coming here & in a few months get so homesick that cant wait to get the project over & go back. They just want to make as much money that they can & use it as a seed investment to start a company of their own.

When I was visiting India I used to wonder why there is so much mad competition to get into medical school. People are still sending their children to some capitation medical school for outrageous sums. I asked a few of those med students why they are wasting that money--esp now that its so difficult for Indian doctors to go to the US. All of them told me that the thought of going abroad never ever entered their minds because there is more than enough potential to do very well as doctors in India. My classmates from med school are all doing extremely well in India. I feet embarrased that I used to feel sorry for them that they were stuck in India.

Because of the nuclear factor its very likely India & Pakistan are not going to go to allout war. My only fear is that if those idiot fundos come to power in Pakistan, then our idiots will be elected with an absolute majority & then its all over for the whole subcontinent.

Barring that India & Pakistan will continue to hate each other & wage war with each other. However, those wars will not be fought on a battlefield. Those wars will be fought on an economic, diplomatic, technological & psychological front. If you guys think that Pakistan will prevail in those wars against India---O well; lets just agree to disagree.

Asif,

You cant compare Iran`s progress with glorious isolation to Pakistan`s. There`s a HUGE difference. That difference can be summed up in one word--OIL. Iran has/had oil revenues pouring in & they have used it wisely. Pakistan has no such advantage. How often can you go, hat in hand, to your Arab & Iranian brothers? Cant you see they`re getting sick of you? Once again, FREE LUNCH IS OVER!! Given Pakistan`s track record of leadership ,who is going to make her rise like a phoenix from the ashes? I wish I could share your optimism.

OK OK, I`m getting off my soapbox now. Jeeze! we treacherous banias can thump our chests too:)