This Visit To Pakistan

Mr. Gardezi,

A really nice and intriguing article from you. I just came from the US after a period of 6years and I took a class that I dreaded to take and yea, it was none other than Sociology. But it did a trick on me and that was to get me to think freely and differently.

Anyhow, I am experiecing a lot of things that you experienced in Pakistan after a while but no matter what, the soil of the homeland has no substitute.
Umer

Reply #: 412 gymnosophist

Ref ylh #: 382

[Now either you are extremely stupid, or you are from Rutgers...]

Er... would you care to re-phrase that?

________________

He may not but I will, old friend, nangay sophist!

He is from Rutgers. We all know that. So, your humour sounds buggered up now. As to the other, one doesn`t have to be one to be recognized as one by the real one! Got it? Say it. Or, has Orrisa and Bengal eaten up your tongue?

Did you go to Chinnai again to see what percentage of Muslims are bad in Mathematics? Or was it, that they were good at a second [third?] language.

re: slink

Dear Shanhana

Teething pains? hmm... if i were in melbourne i would have believed you! but i am here in pakistan, inhaling the poisonous air of karachi as i write these lines. have been travelling a lot in country Sindh and punjab and experiencing life as it is for ordinary people of pakistan... ... i am overwhelmed, shocked, depressed, confused, humbled and absolutely disgusted with what i have experienced so far...i am afraid we have cancer on our hands.

Rachna #413

My only supporter on Chowk.

Thanks.

Can you allow me to add four more curses.

Re. krashid #404

No, he doesn`t, since he is both!

Ref ylh #: 382

[Now either you are extremely stupid, or you are from Rutgers...]

Er... would you care to re-phrase that?

Adnan_671 #292

I came back here after a long time and noticed a few posts. Along with some others I found a number of yours written in a cocky, adversarial, and aggressive mizaaj.

I couldn`t help but notice that your bravado was probably genuine but born of the tunnel vision nurtured by ``trained incapacity`` which all ``specialties`` are, so that the higher the level of ``trained incapacity``, the higher the level of general, categorical and dismissive ignorance.

Avoid this tendency; it sounds puerile.

Incidentally, is this the manner in which one cites the references to treatises? How am I going to find them, to educate myself and/or to check yours?

* * * * * *



Any discussion of Mr. Maududi and `his` Wahabi-ism, as witnessed by him through a rather detailed analysis of Charlie`s Angels, during his stay in the States at his son`s place in Buffalo, N.Y., his damnation of, [the Kuffr ka garrh], America [in a statement on return to Pakistan] where only Kaffirs should come to live

or visit -- maybe by this time he had become

aware of the detailed nature of the ``Kuffr-ana`` practices, more even than he could stomach,

of some doctors -- and his return to this `house of kuffr` due to his ill-health at a later time, must take place off these pages. Care to correspond on these matters?

A.N:

I will write the episode in few days. Hopefully, over the weekend, if I found sometime.

Later,

Oh wait did I just call myself a barbarian ? ...

ok let me correct myself... ``Aray mian barbarian hon gay app!``

Yasser

You know the problem with Islam today is that it is caught up in this fancy that Naqshbandis and other such foolish religio-mystical orders create... Its time we got rid of these fools!

Yasser Hamdani

Ulta chor kotwal ko dante... aray mian barbarian hon gay app, aur app kay abba jaan, aur app kay dadda jaan, aur app kay pardaada jaan.

You have paid attention to one part of Zahra`s advice... why dont you pay attention to the other part of her advice.

Yasser Hamdani

PS Hamza Yusuf SUX!

Dear Zahra,

Please go ahead and write about your interaction with Imam Hamza as you said earlier. I am still most interested in the whole matter. BTW, you never know, my response might not be as you anticipate (or it might!!)

Thanks for your advice about the barbarian--you are correct. ``Jawaab e jahilaaN khamoshi baashad``!

Zahra,

The comment that Rsaxena made was in response to Neurogen, who brought up the fact that I had cursed in a similar fashion earlier on the Siqafat Board.

-YLH

Rsaxena #

Do you know the difference between an urchin and a leech yet.

I love and understand Islam much more than this Talibani wannabe can ever do!

Next time you decide to call me the enemy of Islam remember that had it not been for my great ancestor you would not have Islam!

-YLH

Yasser:

Your humor was in a very poor taste! In fact, I do not even think you have ANY sense to differentiate between humor and vulgarity.

Deplorable!


A. Naqshbandi:

I feel that if someone apologizes he should be taken seriously unless he portrays otherwise. My initial feeling was that Yasser felt apologetic, but I doubt it now. The best you can do and you should do is completely ignore him.

I am still keen to narrate the episode and would be all ears to hear your input. I am also 100% positive that your input will not be very pleasing to my ears...but so what. At least you have the basic decency to talk than utter vulgarities like others.

Kind Regards,

Rsaxena,

Thanks for the support :) and encouragement ;)

YLH

the fact that the crude, vitriolic, uncouth barbarian swore at my mother only goes to show how ``civilised`` and devoid of ethics some of these so-called secularists like the enemy of islam ylh actually are...i will not reply in kind though i know plenty of choice words in punjabi, urdu and farsi as well as english; u see, our beloved religion teaches us not to swear. (And btw, i did not even start this use of expletives--in one of his previous posts he accused me of wanting to give ``BJs`` (his words) to the arabs...)

Then he was so incensed that i called the westerners his masters that he swore at my mother....

Jaa al haqq wa dhaahiqal baatil....

Re: The Neurogen & ylh Opera

If someone`s mother wants to sleep with ylh, I don`t see how it is his fault. All the power to him and shame on her.

Hope that helps.

Re: spout

Can it little girl. I had nothing to do with whatever happened at that Satan Stoning ceremony.

(I see you`re predictably at your little holier-than-thou phase.)

Rsaxena,

Unlike you, I don`t take pleasure from people`s death. For you to use the tragedy at Mecca to make fun of Muslims shows your cold hearted nature.

Don`t let anger or the need for revengeful drivel blind you towards becoming something which you shouldn`t be.

To others, Yes I did write that, and it was written in provocation and after constant harassment, which included an assault on my person.

Why is this fool bringing this BS out here anyway? Is it relevant.

Let us not forget that one of the founding members of this association Islamic Society at RUtgers went on to assist Ramzi in his quest to bring down the world trade center!

Neurogen,

AM I answerable to you .... I am not going to give you any answer... enough is enough of this bulshit... I didnt know they let your kind on CHowk.

Yasser Hamdani

Re: sigalph

``Saxena babu, that was a bit uncalled for.``

Sorry, that was meant for urchins like scout and krashid, not you. Apologies.

YLH,

Dids you or dids you not write `you fuked Junaid`s mother.`

Ise wants a simple answer.

Adnan #672

Try to think what institutions you want to create. Because those institutions are the building block and not the personal whims of ruler.

For example the institution of dictatorship or kingdom etc. Similarly what role the people play in Shariah.

If Umer RZAH was questioned by a common man regarding his wearing large cloth. How can the institution of dictatorship or king will allow common man to question the misdeeds of ruler.

Just a point to ponder.

Adnan 672 #375

You are in effect saying that joining the Army Government by Jamat-e-Islami reflects internal democracy of Jamat-e-Islami.

Does it mean that Jamat-e-Islami thinks democracy is good for it and bad for common man.

Moreover that is your personal thinking that Army rule is bad and in no way reflect the will of Jamat-e-Islami.

Scout #377

I thought you are a sensible lady.

But your remarks that there is prostitution in India and even that on a massive scale is uncalled for.

India has only two things. Democracy and Secularism. And rest are ramifications of it.

Killing in Kashmir is not for democracy but Secularism in India. Electing BJP is for democracy but not secularism in India.

As far as prostituion, it is for democracy and secularism both. The more it will be the more will be democracy and secularism.

When RSuxena becomes a male prostitute, that day will be remembered in India as a milestone of democracy and secularism.

scout:

``Things change, this is not the century when the Quran shareef was written, the world is a dynamic place and we have to change with it``.

O great one, in ur eternal wisdom pl. advise us as to wht parts of the quran shd be changed

This is an old apologist line, as u cant meet western ideals remaining bouded by Allahs commands u want to change His Words.

The Factual Position:

The quran shareef btw was never written. It is as all muslims beleive ``Qadeem``,we beleive it not to be created. This is the discussion on Khalq e Quran. Any sect which has beleived otherwise (the mutazilites for one) has been considered non beleivers by the muslims.

My pt. wht has not been created is indep. of time and space.



adnan

RSaxena:

I agree with Sigalph.

Please keep such cheap shots to yourself!

!!!Thanks!!!

re rsaxena

``The mooslim mela in the desert turns violent. More stoning of idols.``

Saxena babu, that was a bit uncalled for. Making gratutious fun of people`s faith is quite different than strong philosophical disagreements with a religion`s tenets.

The mooslim mela in the desert turns violent. More stoning of idols.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1203000/1203108.stm

``Thirty-five Muslim pilgrims have been killed in a stampede as the annual Muslim pilgrimage, the Hajj, reached its climax.

They died during the Stoning of Satan ritual on Monday``

``In 1998, at least 118 people died and more than 180 were injured in a stampede during the third and last day of the stoning ceremony.``

`` Like Muslims around the world, the pilgrims also slaughter sheep, goats, camels and cattle ``

Re: Spout

``Another thought: Canada is a very large country, much larger than India, and it`s prostitution rate is peanuts compared to India`s.``

Don`t strain your brain too much but by large we are talking about population not land area. Of course that subtle leap of logic was a little too much for you.

Yes everyone see for yourself...

http://www.siqafat.cjb.net

These fundoo tactics against me wont work!

Also

http://www.spindoctor.web.com

and

http://www.ylh.cjb.net

As far as posting as someone else... everyone at Rutgers knows... that YLH, Yasser Hamdani, Observer and Grey Wolf are all my nicks though people use them in order to embarrass me...

Neurogen,

There has been a systematic smearing campaign by the Islamic Fundamentalists at Rutgers against me.

For your information I have never written as anyone else... Whatever statements were made, were made in reaction to the constant bickering by the ISRU people. They assaulted me twice, and had you read the topic of that particular post, it was ``Yasser gets slapped ISRU wins the war``.

Now either you are extremely stupid, or you are from Rutgers...

The Islamic Fundamentalist fools at Rutgers have taken it upon them to terrorize me and my friends... they hit Faran the president of Siqafat, and they attacked Farhaj manytimes... then they Hacked the Siqafat message Board and erased all messages...

The mother-cursing was started by the ISRU people.

Solitude,

I am afraid you just present oneside of the picture...what happened in Kaaba was sociopolitical necessity... A monotheistic Faith with Kaaba its center was required to rid its holiest place of Symbol of ancient Paganism.....

However, Art forms and religious symbols of other communities have survived and have been protected

by Muslims a lot of the times if they have been destroyed at other times....

Ancient statues, and figures in Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Pakistan, are examples of this. After all the statues in Afghanistan also survived through out the Muslim rule .....

Amr ibn Aas was the ruler of Egypt in the times of Umar the second caliph. In Alexandria, I believe, there was a big statue of Jesus Christ, which was left unharmed by the Muslims.... one stupid Muslim Zealot broke the nose of that statue at night... Next day there was a lot of Hue and cry ... and the christians took their case to Amr ibn Aas... Placed in such a drastic position, Amr apologized and asked what he could do as rectification. The Christians demanded that a statue of Muhammad should be made and then the nose of that statue should be broken...Amr was infuriated but he controlled his temper, and offered to have his own nose cut instead ... when the ruling was being carried out the Zealot ran out and admitted his deed...

Jamaatis really shouldnt be talking... they were the enemies of Pakistan back when Pakistan was being formed, and they are the enemies of Pakistan today!

YLH,

``I have the greatest respect for every mother, sister and daughter...``

I would suggest everyone go to Siqafat and check out the article where YLH gets slapped and ends up crying.

Mr Hamdani claims in the replies section that he has fuked Junaid`s mother too. Not only that; he also disguises himself as someone else whilst making that comment...

YLH, do you something for mature women?

adnan_672,

``ur hatred for the commands of allah simply shows ur narow minded veiws.``

hatred is a strong word, please use it with caution. saying ``allah hafiz`` instead of ``khuda hafiz`` is not a command of Allah?

please grow up.

``u see u have made opposing allahs commands a complete religion.``

If we followed all of these so called ``commands`` half of which aren`t even in the Quran (they are in Hadiths), we`d go backwards instead of forwards in this progressive society.

Things change, this is not the century when the Quran shareef was written, the world is a dynamic place and we have to change with it.

``So long fanatics``

So long FUNDO!

rsuxena #371, ``As for prostitution, there are just more there because it is a larger country. Simple math.``

Wait a second, so where does this ``simple math`` go when you`re comparing India with Pakistan in various ways.

Another thought: Canada is a very large country, much larger than India, and it`s prostitution rate is peanuts compared to India`s.

So much for ``simple math.``

Please think before you post.

Shankar,

``Yasser`` is only as Arabic as the Word ``ummet`` is.

I am not against mutual borrowing but I am against arabicizing the language by continuing to use the Arabic pronounciation.

Arabs insist on calling me yeysir or yesir....

My name is Yasser.... pronounced ... Yaa-ser, the Urdu pronounciation...Great as Quaid e Azam Jinnah was... my destiny is linked with my own name.

Pakistan Zindabad

Yasser Hamdani

krashid:

Two pts i want to make

1. The jamaat joined the govt. as a means of enforcing shariat in the country

Zia was simply not doing that he wanted a political front so jamaat after this realization left.

2. This decision of jamaat was WRONG. Personally i m allergic to the army and consider it to be the no. 1 diesease affecting pakistani society. So any association with the army in my view is disasterous.

The democracy i wrote abt was an internal one. Jamaat btw is the only pol. org. which has elec. within its ranks.

(The ANP partly does so as well to keep the record st.)

adnan

A bigot is somebody who despises the other person for the latter`s ``beliefs``,colour, ethnicity, ...have no hatred towards people but only towards ideas that espouse hatred or looking-down on.....



UR statement

``Then, as I mentioned before, we will wait for you guys in Bengal where bigotry will not gain ac foothold until the Padma, Meghna, and Jamuna run red with the blood of freedom``

WAH WAH BHAI! this is precisely wht i want to make u ppl. say. To prove u are no better than the KKK.

btw i could write a lengthy article on wht the atrocities commited by mukti bahini, the murders rape etc etc. but i shall refrain from doing so bcos ur simply not ready to listen.

As for ur threats, in school we learnt empty vessels......

``I am content to let Allah set His limits and ordain his punishment. You or som.........``

But u mentioned drinking, wht does ur statement then mean pl. explain

``And Adnan, I have news for you: We will fight this bigot class at every turn``

I am petrified!

adnan

Rshivsena,

I can understand if you dont want to tell me what part of India youre from. But, PLEASE PLEASE dont tell me youre from my beloved Bombay!

O God! maybe youre related to Bal Thakrey! Buttheads like you are responsible for changing her name to Mumbai.

If you insist, go play kissy face with hamidm in Bhendi Bazaar or Kamhatipura.

ylh,

Isnt ``Yasser`` an Arabic name?! If so, you may have ``issues`` with your folks :) Maybe you should change your name to ``Jinnah Hamdani``--yeah! way to go, baby!

I must commend you for having matured a lot these past few months. Once in a while, the old ylh does show his stupid face, though. If Asif calls you a ``slave``, does that make you one?! Get real!

It takes maturity to apologise for making a boo boo. Many of us have:)

Re: spout

``Send me a ticket, I wanna go to Bombay, dammit.``

I think you would get smacked around if you showed up in Bombay chanting ``your morals are wrong`` and ``khuda hafiz`` and ``i am right`` and ``you, girl, put this burkha on and stop showing your ankles``

As for prostitution, there are just more there because it is a larger country. Simple math. Next time think before you look like a dolt trying to make a comeback.

re adnan 672

``ps: the democracy issue: bhai at least read the posting properly, i was talking abt democracy internally within jamaat, those opposed to an alliance with zia had to follow the verdict of the majority.``

A. Thanks for clarifying it. Something tells me that this clarification was an afterthought to my rejoinder. Nonetheless, I am happy that the Jamaat believes in some form of rudimentary democracy.

``btw jamiat launched a campaign against the ban on student unions, speaks volumes for indep. of IJT from Jamaat Is there another example of this in the student groups in pakistan??``

A. I don`t know and I don`t care. Frankly. if Hitlerjuegend agitated against a ban on student/youth unions, they are not likely to find much sympathy, are they?

``1. Dont u realize ur hatred makes u as much a bigot as any mullah.``

A. A bigot is somebody who despises the other person for the latter`s beliefs, colour, ethnicity, language etc. I do not fit in that categoty. I have no hatred towards people but only towards ideas that espouse hatred or looking-down on other religions, races, political philosophies, and ethnicities. The Jamaat and the rest of that class fit that bill, I don`t. You need a better debate teacher.

``2. I do not know abt the statement and of the moulana himself btw. but ill find out. Till then i take ur word and condemn this statement in unequivocal terms. It is indeed a shameful statement IF made by any mamber of jamaat.``

A. Maulana Delawar Sayeedi is a member of the Majlis-e-Shura of Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh and one of that neo-Nazi party`s two MPs.

``3. My friend there r certain limits set forth by Allah. Drinking is expressly forbidden, so either come out in the open and declare that u have chosen to rebel against Allah or is it merely trying to gain attention by shccking?``

A. I am content to let Allah set His limits and ordain his punishment. You or some other human commits a preposterous shirk when he substitutes himself for the Almighty in matters of social mores and their punishment. If the above is indeed your true statement, you ought to seek forgiveness for major shirk-there is no greater sin in Islam.

``4. Try to be a true liberal, do not hate ppl. or groups, u may be opposed to them but hatered will get u nowhere.``

A. I have no intention of being a liberal, true or otherwise. I am a libertarian conservative, capitalist, Republican, who defends the most ancient idea of all, as mentioned by Thomas Jefferson, `All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights...amongst these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.` Questions?

``5. Finally i would like to point out, to other chowksters as well, that the statements abt the rt. wing in Pakistan which many make on chowk simply shows the narrow mindedness and bigoted mentality of the so called secular liberal elements.``

A. What you say is the `right wing` is neither right nor a wing. It is the dead wrong deadweight dragging Jinnah`s Pakistan into nightmare of a society where a select class of beareded and turbaned high-priests will decide every decision of every individual`s personal and collective life.

And Adnan, I have news for you: We will fight this bigot class at every turn, every debate, every spring. Pakistan may be lost but not without a fight. Then, as I mentioned before, we will wait for you guys in Bengal where bigotry will not gain a foothold until the Padma, Meghna, and Jamuna run red with the blood of freedom fighers. Keep in mind that we are still the Bengal Tigers who gave the Jamaat bigots a bloody nose a short thirty years ago.

Rsuxena #363, `` ...take home either the Norwegian amabassador`s daughter or 40-year-old Mrs.Khopdiwala (if you don`t mind the paunch).``

Ohhh, that must be why India has the highest rate of prostitution in all of the third world countries and the highest incidence of AIDS.

Wow what a paradise!

Send me a ticket, I wanna go to Bombay, dammit.

(I know Karachi`s not a paradise city either, so don`t go misquoting me)

TAhmed 321# 347

Please see Ayah:

9:90, 9:97, 9:98, 9:101, 48:11, 48:16, 49:14

regarding Bedouins.

Adnan 672 #349

Since you did not want to answer those questions because of lack of reference, I will not presss, But they are facts.

The only question you answered was that Jamat-e-Islami joined ministership in Zia`s Cabinet for some sort of democracy.

So tell me why did they resign after seven months. Did they realize after seven months that it is not some sort of democracy?

hamidm and scout:

ur postings truely reveal wht arbakan said

there r no secular ppl. they r just as bigoted in their opinions.

ur hatred for the commands of allah simply shows ur narow minded veiws.

u see u have made opposing allahs commands a complete religion.

be brave enough to declare that u will fight at every step against allahs commands

So long fanatics

adnan

sigalph:

ps: the democracy issue: bhai at least read the posting properly, i was talking abt democracy internally within jamaat, those opposed to an alliance with zia had to follow the verdict of the majority.

btw jamiat launched a campaign against the ban on student unions, speaks volumes for indep. of IJT from Jamaat

Is there another example of this in the student groups in pakistan??

adnan

Dear sigalph:

Some observations on ur posting:

1. Dont u realize ur hatred makes u as much a bigot as any mullah.

2. I do not know abt the statement and of the moulana himself btw. but ill find out. Till then i take ur word and condemn this statement in unequivocal terms. It is indeed a shameful statement IF made by any mamber of jamaat.

3. My friend there r certain limits set forth by Allah. Drinking is expressly forbidden, so either come out in the open and declare that u have chosen to rebel against Allah or is it merely trying to gain attention by shccking?

4. Try to be a true liberal, do not hate ppl. or groups, u may be opposed to them but hatered will get u nowhere.

5. Finally i would like to point out, to other chowksters as well, that the statements abt the rt. wing in Pakistan which many make on chowk simply shows the narrow mindedness and bigoted mentality of the so called secular liberal elements.

adnan

Re: hamidm

``next time you are on the wrong side of wagha, call me, and i will take you to heaven on earth ...... you bring the whiskey``

If you ever make it to the right side of the border, you call me and I will bring all the whiskey and merlot you want. And if you leave the wife and kids home, I will get us into Nineteen Hundreds at the top floor of the Taj Mahal Hotel in Bombay where you can shake your booty to Daler Mehndi and Wu Tang Clan and take home either the Norwegian amabassador`s daughter or 40-year-old Mrs. Khopdiwala (if you don`t mind the paunch). And guess what? It would all be legal and no one will drag you to Mahalaxmi temple for a beating or a conversion.

Of course there are exceptions, but hamidm is kinda right, most of these middle aged ``hijabans`` and confused ABCD ``hijabans`` have discovered God after doing their share of ``sinful`` behavior.

nau sau chuwain khakay billi Haj ko chali

ylh #361, ``Pakistani Professional Women seldom wear the Hijab!``

I agree. Only the ones inspired by their Iranian counterparts.

Rsaxena,

I can assure you that I had never noticed a woman in Hijab untill I came to the US. Kindly reserve your judgements till you see the real deal for yourself. Pakistani Professional Women seldom wear the Hijab!

To The Rest,

I think Hamidm`s comment is misunderstood by most people, he obviously was speaking out against the Maulvi attitude towards professional women!

Yasser Hamdani

Its been a very long time since Chowk people posted anything from the Pakistani Nationalist perspective... Why is there selective screening ..

with either ``Pakistan was a desperate measure, Jinnah, a good man, was wrong and made an error in creation of Pakistan`` view or there is ``Pakistan is wrong, Jinnah is a communal Monster, and we should unite India or have United States of South Asia`` view. Why isnt the view ``Pakistan was our right, sovereignty belongs to the people who want it, and that the principle of self determination allows us the right to our own future`` ever published. Whatever the merits of all three views, we know very well that all three views are held by a great number of people.... and that Indian Nationalist and Pakistani Apologist point of views are not the only two types of views on Chowk.... there is a third view the ``Pakistani Nationalist`` view... when will this repressive denial of identities (in the name of Humanity ?) end? Dont we have the right as human beings to be what we want to be?

For that matter why was my poem ``awaited Messiah`` selected in a yet to be published anthology by a Jewish Arabicist ``Ironic Islam``... was rejected by the chowk staff?... and I wonder why, my article

``Revisionism amongst Pakistanis`` an article which won praise from the likes of Mr Cowasjee... I can quote the email, was rejected as below standard by Chowk people? Clearly there has to be an end to shameless censorship and Pakistani Apologetics!

Pakistan is here, and it is right... for that is why it is here!

Real Humanism is to realize and appreciate a people`s right to their sovereignty... Real humanism is to accept differences!

Long Live Pakistani Nationalism!

Down with ``fake`` Humanism!

Down with Pakistani Apologists!

rsaxena

....... you are an idiot - and i say that affectionately ...... next time you are on the wrong side of wagha, call me, and i will take you to heaven on earth ...... you bring the whiskey and i`ll get phaja to deliver his paye to her elysian boudoir, aka, kotha .....of course, after we are done with all the merriment i will have to hand you over to naqshbandi and urstruly so that they can take you mansoora and try to convert you to the faith, or beat you to death ........

.....and forget this nonsense about hijab-clad moon-faced islamic nuns at the banks; it is not that bad - yet ..........the gals at citibank and askari bank never fail to warm the cockles of my heart ..... i do share your concern that naqshbandi`s brothers in misguided faith are driving our women behind the walls of newly created convents like the one that once housed rafiq tarrar`s equally clueless predecessors ....... and yes, i do see a lot of women starting to drape themselves in bedsheets as a badge of piety and to save themselves from the wrath and lustful stares of the pungent bearded hordes........luckily for us most of these women are the broad-bottomed middle-aged variety who, now that they are past their prime, have discovered god .......

re adnan 672`s

``Why did Jamat-e-Islami supported the Army in its killing and rape of Bengalis.

R u for real. Is this a sane question. The simple answer is THEY DID NOT.``

Have you ever been to Bengal and spent some time there talking to the average folks? Everybody worth his/her salt knows how deep the Jamaat`s involvement was, political and later physical, in suporting the Pakistan Army`s ethnic cleansing. In a speech during the 1996 parliamentary elections Jamaat leader (and now MP) Maulana Delawar Hossain Sayeedi claimed that a lot of the women who were violated by the Pakistani soldiers could take comfort in the fact that it would be considered a matter of mut`a marriage in the defence of the Islamic homeland against Hindus (somebody later pointed out to the maulana that this concept of `temporary marriage` is a Shiite thing but he didn`t retract his filthy statement anyway). The simple fact remains that everybody who thinks and knows (obviously this rules out the assorted bigot class of JI, JUI, JUP etc) knows the fifth column role of Jamaat-e-naIslami during the War of Independence.

You joining Zia`s cabinet was an act of democratic participation? Yeah, only a Jamaati can convolute the facts so much.

Frankly all of you pseudo-mullah wannabees should relax your mind and have a drink or two. That might let your minds and souls regenerate the precious brain-cells lost under the whip of the mullah nonsense.

I wouldnt have crossed this limit had Naqshbandi not repeatedly used that word. I have the greatest respect for every mother, sister and daughter...

How about Asif Naqshbandi apologizes for his slave comment, which he has made repeatedly, and I will

apologize!

Laton kay bhoot baton say nahin mante!

Re : Hamidm

``should i be writing this note in arabic ? asthagfirullah ! ........ this is the kind of nonsense that will drive a man to drink and blow up giant buddhas ........... ``

This was priceless. ROTFL.

Thanks for cheerinmg us up on this cold, dark, grey morning inn California.

Hamid Sahib, it really is about time that yoiu come out of the closet and take full responsibiliy for your guffaws coded small pieces, by writing a full article, in the same tone, and with lots of dots in it. I tell you, you will be the biggest thing on Chowk, next to ginat buddha smashing Talibans.

Best Regards

Asim

Re: hamidm

``...but that still doesn`t take away from the fact that heera mandi is a far better place than GP road``

Fine, i haven`t been to either so i`ll take your word for it.

``.... our professional women, or whores as they are called in less sophisticated circles, are better than yours``

I don`t think so. Running around at an Islamic bank in a hijab chanting ``khuda hafiz`` at every customer doesn`t say much about professional Pakistani women.

ylh #330 I see what Zahra and ahmedb are complaining about. You only lower yourself when you make such remarks, not the person you are attacking. I appreciate many of your views (not all). But there can be no room for discussion when you make disgusting personal attacks like this.

Omarphoenix #3hundred something: ``Let`s keep Urdu and Arabic exclusive. It would be paying the language respect by using the correct pronunciations, spellings etc etc; so If I speak Urdu, then I say Mazhab, and if Arabic, then Madhab.``

Paying a language respect? How do you pay a language respect? Agreed on the substance though: As I said earlier, you can tell when something is fake, and when someone pronounces Z as D (presumably to please Allah), then he is a fake.

``Learning of the two languages should be made free to the public, i.e. there should be centres that exclusively teach the two languages.``

There is no free lunch. Who will pay for the centers? What you need is a broad-based education program that is strategically defined to address some real issues and certainly English - the de facto international language today - should be promoted. Interesting how nationalists in the third world as well as in the first world (in countries like France etc.) tried to fight of English for years, but natural and economic and technological trends are the real determinants in such things.

krashid #341 Agreed except about the bedoins: I dont think it is fair to put down any people since there are good and bad people in every group. I can understand your frustration though at the awe with which Arabs and Arabic is treated by mullahs: when I was a student, I once saw a Jammaati fellow respectfully listening and saying ``Ameen, Ameen`` while two Palestinians were chatting in Arabic - knowing those to Palestinians, they were probably chatting about how to get the girls` attention (an eternal problem with these fellows).

re ylh 330

Yasser, I join others in disapproving the language used in your retort to Asif Naqshbandi. Such words are inappropriate for a future Prime Minister of Pakistan. Remember the Maulanas called the Quaid ``Kafir-e-Azam`` but Mr Jinnah never stooped to those depths of depravity in return.

There is no greater insult to me, then someone calling me a slave... and I will respond in the most proposterous statements... if anyone has the audacity to say something like that.

RE: YLH # 330

ylh, the probablity that you conceived Asif is the same as the probability of you conceiving yourself.

This is known as recursion in computer science.

krashid:

1. Do u reserve the rt to use any tone u want?



2. Again u have made the fatal error in ur questions, it called ``begging the question``, u posed some rhetorical questions, that is NOT the way to argue.

As for the answers here goes (although this manner of questioning deserves no answer) but with bigots like u wht else can one expect.

Do you believe Yahya Khan was Mardi Momin. If .....

They did not, pl. give a reference, besides one that traces all roots of knowledge to urself.

The same question about Zia-ul-Haq.

Reference again, jamaats offical history is ``Rodaad e Jamaat e Islami`` pl. quoite from an authentic source



Why did Jamat-e-Islami supported the Army in its killing and rape of Bengalis.

R u for real. Is this a sane question. The simple answer is THEY DID NOT.

Why did Jamat-e-Islami accepted ministership in Zia-ul-Haque regime?

Because Jamaat has accepted politics as a legitimate way of implementing her ideas. Personally I and many other Jamaat workers were and r against this but u have to let democracy rule within the party and without.

My friend krashid, u see as i mentioned ur seething hatred leaves u no better a person than SSP and TJP followers.

This also proves my point that there is nothing such as a liberal person. We r all bigots in our own beleifs and ideas.

The right is better than the left in Pakistan cos at least we try to listen to the other side, we may disagree but we do not start cursing when we have no point to make.

Some advice, if u r really sincere in ur criticism pl. give some mature pts. of opp. Jamaats tht and path is there in its literature. Pl. read it with an open mind. And again these were simply very personlized views u exp.

adnan

hamidm #320,

now that was funny...

khuda hafiz rules!

ylh #330, ``.As for my honor, I lost it when I slept with your mother, and conceived you!``

Even if you don`t agree with Asif, or are angry with him, I believe you should apologize for that post.

Let`s keep our respect for mothers and fathers intact. You should have just called him an idiot and moved on.

krashid #340

The last line should read.

Aaj Kal Allah Mian Ka Arab Nationalism Urooj Pur Hai. Earthquake Bhi Non-Arab Pur Nazil Kar Raha Hai.

Yasser,

[Asif Naqshbandi, I asked you not to call anyone my masters.......]

I just logged on to write my thoughts on Humza Yousaf, when I came across your post. I often write on other forums as well when I am in the mood. But I like Chowk, for its interactions - as they reveal a lot. The revelation process involves many steps - people argue, listen, agree, disagree, confront, convince, relate, and narrate to exchange views in a sensible manner. This effort also proves to be a learning experience. You also get to hear your own people whom you won’t have heard otherwise.

Personally, I am shocked and disgusted to read your post! Apparently, it was written in Josh than in Hosh. Whatever. It was in a very poor taste! You may be on a crusade to have everyone agree with you, but I am sorry you`ll be very disappointed if you think that will ALWAYS happen. In short, by writing derogatory comments you will NEVER EVER attract anyone as your follower or a comrade, Yasser.

I thought you believed in liberalism/secularism? I also thought liberals/seculars held more tolerance than the [rigid] fanatics or sweet fundamentalists. In reality, that`s not true! Liberalism/Secularism, does not let fear of God kick in? Or does it?

Very Disappointed!




Asif Naqshbandi,

I’ll certainly write my question and your hero, Humza Yousaf`s answer. I wanted to ask you: What do the religious authorities say on calling a person with a name[in this case, ``your masters``] that is not acceptable to him? And also, if that person has repeatedly raised his voice that he stands by his views and is not a puppet?

Thanks.

In response to ylh (Reply # 330)

I am ashamed to read Yasser`s response to Asif Naqshbandi.

Sadly yours, Bilal Ahmad

TAhmed 321 #317

Not only that the Quran is in Arabic, but also the reason is given in Quran i.e. All the prophets have been sent to their nation in their own language.

Does it make sense that the other languages in which ``Wahi`` came were less Godly.

Not only that according to the history, upto the time of Hazrat Usman people used to recite Quran acording to their own dialect and wording. And it was thought that with time original message will be lost or corrupted and that was the reason of having collection of Quran in its original form. So recitation of Koran in other dialects and ways were allowed upto the time of Hazrat Usman.

As far as Arab BEDOUINS are concerned, they have been mentioned in Koran as bad people.

Siagalph237 #237

On your response to Naqsbandi of asking in Arabic after death.

It looks like that according to ylh assertion Prophet PBUH was Arab Nationalist (I have very different opinion) but even God is Arab Nationalist sending his angels to talk in Arabic. And anyone not knowing Arabic will not pass the TEST of ``Akhara``

Not only that if you realize that God has given Oil wealth to mainly Arab nation my belief strengthens further that HE is Arab Nationalist.

Hai Raam Ub Kia Ho Ga.

Arab Mullah--Arab Allah Ittihad Yahudiun Aur Kuffar Ke Liye Maut Ka Pegham Hai.

Aaj Kul Allah Mian Ka Arab Nationalism Urooj Pur Hai. Earthquake Bhi Kuffar Pur Nazil Kur Raha Hai.

Dear Urstruly, Yasser, TAhmad, Asif, Hamidm and everyone else,

Let`s keep Urdu and Arabic exclusive. It would be paying the language respect by using the correct pronunciations, spellings etc etc; so If I speak Urdu, then I say Mazhab, and if Arabic, then Madhab.

For what it`s worth, Arabic should be either made compulsory or promoted for the Muslim only so that we may read the Quran as a book as opposed to the usual heirogliphics that one reads on a dusswaan, chaaliswaan (in my opinion a complete disrespect to the language and a useless abhorant tradition). Meaninga of the words are lost when you translate a language (and this has nothing to do with Islam being timeless etc etc). English should also be made compulsory or promoted as it`s the language of science.

Learning of the two languages should be made free to the public, i.e. there should be centres that exclusively teach the two languages.

If possible, the cause could be promoted by more NGOs, charities or even educated people participating in these activities. (I`m refraining from mentioning Urdu becayuse it`s our national language).

I`m ready for the backlash.

Allah di spurd.

Umer Murtaza Phoenix.

..so the query was directed only to those like Asif #263

My doubt #326 was created by statements like Asif`s #263.

ylh#331

Agreed

Why is it that people are adept at pointing at the 5% extremists, when their own countrymen are the most notorious for destroying places of worship of the minority community, and then building their own places of worship on top of them!

Sadna,

First of all we are not an Islamic State... and secondly an overwhelming majority of Pakistanis believe in voting! So your question is out of line...

Saxena,

We had nothing to do with the world trade center bombing... As for our contribution, the ratio of

Computer nerds in the silicon valley of Pakistani to Indian is propotionally higher than the ratio of Pakistanis to Indians in this world....

Time to be fair.

Yasser Hamdani

PS

I go to Rutgers... it has one of the largest Arab student Populations in the US... I know Arabs too well, and the culture they promote in the guise of their Islamic Societies at Universities sponsored and funded by the Saudis!

Urstruly,

Did you read my last post?

I said 1) Urdu 2) Muslim Culture 3) South Asian Civilization... these are the three pivotal principles of Pakistani Nationalism!

I too believe in ``Ummet`` ... as an Economic Union based on the European Union, a

pseudo-confederation of Muslim Nations working together to alleviate societal ills, and poverty.

Ummet is not nation but a community of Nations with the same religious beliefs, Millet is Nation, and neither of these two are necessarily ``Watan`` based as the Asif Naqshbandi tries to present my views as, watan is simply the national homeland of ``Millet``... but ``Millet`` extends the borders of ``Watan``. Many Muslim Millets together make the Ummet!

Yasser Hamdani

Asif Naqshbandi,

I asked you not to call anyone my masters....

Now, listen you have earned my vengeance for all times....As for my honor, I lost it when I slept with your mother, and conceived you!

There is an 18-yo recent immgrant to the US who is going through some serious identity crises,and (I think) is need of some cultural lifelines and emotional support as she deals with some scary issues. She is from the Jackson Heights area. If anyone knows where she could find such help, pleae email me postmatser@yahoo.com.

Thanks,

P.M

rsaxena #319

...okay, i agree ... but that still doesn`t take away from the fact that heera mandi is a far better place than GP road .... our professional women, or whores as they are called in less sophisticated circles, are better than yours .. and in the end, that is all that matters ....... even the jihadis are dying for the company of celestial concubines .......

re asif n`s

``When we die we all will be questioned in arabic``

Don`t you worry guys, that`s a scare tactic. Under the provisions of the Sixth Amendment (fair trial et al) we will be provided with adequate translation. In fact, I am told that each guy gets a houri to be a personal translator. If that doesn`t work, find me because I`ll be happy to sub-contract out my Moroccan and Lebanese friends (minimum wage applies). Oh yes, payment accepted in dollars, euros, and pouns sterling only. DOn`t try to give me afghanis-they won`t work in the hereafter either.

Why is voting for creation of Pakistan taken to be a Godly sign for creation of a Islamic state but voting after an Islamic state is established considered unGodly?

YLH

That is not what you said in your earlier posts. I think you are paranoid about Arab Imeprialism. It is non exitent. Either you have never met Arabs or you are just exagarating it. We are as Punjabi as we can be-but we cant be Sikhs if that is what you want-sorry no can do. The concept of Ummah is as real and practical as the concept of Globalization. Open up your eyes and mind and look around-you will see it in the process of materializing.

ylh #307 In other words, what you are saying is to be natural, rather than putting on accents. Good advice.

sigalph #305 Actually the Quran does refer to itself as being an Arabic Quran. However, the explanation that is provided for the Quran as being in Arabic is the opposite of the way the mullahs explain it: this Quran is in Arabic, it says, in order to make the message understandable to people to whom the message was being delivered. The Quran explicitly states that it does not change anything from the message that was sent through the prophet Moses and through other prophets. (And indeed, in essence the basic message in all religions is the same even as their fanatics condemn one another). The importance lies in the message not the language. Nowhere in the Quran is Arabic given any special status over other languages, or this holy book in Arabic over holy books deliverd in other languages, or muslims any special status over other people (all individuals being subject to judgement on the Final Day) and it is explicitly noted that it is incorrect for people of any religion (including Islam) to consider themselves a chosen people. Or to associate their prophet with God in any way other than as a messenger who is charged with delivering a message. All this is is vast contrast to the beliefs held by many people who read the Quran without understanding.

Re: krashid

``Believe me I am not from Pakistan but Mars.``

Didn`t you say you were from Central Park?

PS

When words are borrowed they are adopted as the language`s own... words like Ummet etc are now Urdu words also...

Yasser Hamdani

Dear Urstruly,

The matter is not to approach the Muslim World at large for that can be done in another ways... the problem we face is to rid Pakistani Islam of Arab cultural imperialism, and to secure our National frontiers, and hence our National Religion.

I think it should be absolutely clear that Principles of Pakistani Nationalism are the following.. (eversince Bangladesh became an independent country which it should ve been in 1947.)

1) National Language : Urdu

2) Muslim Culture

3) South Asian Civilization

These three things we have to incorporate to have a truly sovereign nation.

Yasser Hamdani

....... uimmah, ummet - who gives a flip .... i am still pissed off at allah-hafiz ... what happened to good old khuda-hafiz which i grew up with ???..... about ten years ago, without telling me, they switched ... at first i thaught it was the homely PIA stewardess who in addition to being plain was stupid .... then i noticed it was everyone else .... even my christian friends had switched - i guess for them it was a matter of survival ....... did this have something to do with the positioning of the dopatta on the heads of ptv announcers ? ..... or did we change gods ?? ... asif and adnan - please explain ...

........ and whaen did we start offering salat instead of namaz ?? ......... ``salat ka waqt ho gaya hai``..... what ?? ........ it was hard enough offering three fards - now we have to go through some convoluted bedouin ritual ? ........ and why are little children dressed up as arabs with rags on their heads ? .... and why are fat and ugly middle aged women wearing scarves, hijabs or whatever .... where did this come from ? ..... what happened to my grandmother`s black and grey burqas ?

........... should i be writing this note in arabic ? asthagfirullah ! ........ this is the kind of nonsense that will drive a man to drink and blow up giant buddhas ...........

Re: hamidm

So the crumbling mud hut with a $3000 Ethan Allen couch is better than the stable one-room studio made of concrete and wood? Face it, Pakistan is a nearly bankrupt sewage tank with no hope for the economy, a military dictator, religious nuts with AK-47s who will shoot anyone who condemns shariah, and as many friends as shankar when he is calling little girls ``cute jalapenos`` on the Internet. Name the last worthy contribution Pakistan made to the world...other than the big bang at the World Trade Center a few years ago.

(Even those wretched South Indians at least made their mark in IT.)

ylh--obviously your masters told you to talk in such a manner when you cant argue convincingly. What great manners they have taught you. btw, you are not worthy even to stand in the same room as Imam Hamza (nor am i but I can at least respect his greatness...)

I never said islam was just for the arabs--i merely pointed out the fact that it does have arabic roots and so much of the ibadat etc. is in arabic. Why dont you pray your salaH in Urdu then?

And the Qur`an itself says that it is a qur`an in the arabic language! When we die we all will be questioned in arabic... The muslim arabs are not better than the muslim non-arabs and vice-versa (except thru piety) BUT we should respect and love them [the muslim ones obviously] because our beloved Master and lord sayyidina wa mawlana muhammad al mustafa sal allahu alayhi wa sallam was an arab, indeed sayyid al arab (w`al ajam)!

And it is in the hadith that ALLAH created Huzoor Paak from the BEST of tribes and nations i.e. Quraysh.

I am proud to be a slave of the family of my beloved Prophet sal allahu alayhi wa sallam.

krashid-- you can read about that mas`ala on this site http://ummah.cjb.net

go to section 14 and then click on Holy Prophet Muhammad (sal allahu alayhi wa sallam). this will take u to two articles on hazir wa nazir. i hope u will read them...

ylh 307

The point is that whether you pronounce Ummah or Ummet,Salat or Salah the words remain Arabic. Urdu borrowed the Maccan accent though. However, I will side with you that the words should be pronounced as they are in Urdu on this site but again rest/most of the Muslim world follows the Medina accent therefore you get a benefit of reaching to a wider audience if you follow Madina accent.

shankar #286: There might be a photograph of Umair Khan on one of his companys` websites. My own guess is that he probably looks quite different from me. But since I have never met him, or seen him, I cannot be certain. Umair, along with Amir and a few others, seems to have been a common first name for newborns of my generation. So you will find quite a few Pakistani Umairs (and a lot of Amirs) in their thirties. I hope that answers you first question.

I ended up changing from Umairr to ROmair because, for some reason, many of my replies as Umairr would not show up on Chowk. It`s a Hindu conspiracy. They have hacked this site, gotten to the cgi scripts, which are handling the replies, and have successfully modified them. Pretty soon they will in our homes, on our TVs and Satellite Dishes, in our VCRs and cassette players, and in our magazine shops. Or has that already happened :-)

Shankar #286

If you read the interview of Umair Khan of clickmark you will notice that there is no mention of association with armed forces. While ROmair (previous Umair) has mentioned his association with armed forces in past.

I also reached this conclusion after reading Umair Khan of clickmark (Like Nawab of KalaBagh) interview.

Dear Sigalph,

I totally agree, as a matter of fact you can consider this a formal invitation on behalf of my future government to be a guest at the Prime Minister House... :)

Yasser Hamdani

Asif Naqsbandi #289

So tell me the ``Mas`ala`` of Hazir o Nazir Prophet.

Believe me I am from Pakistan and not Mars. I will try to understand your op