This Visit To Pakistan

urstruly:#109

Doom & Gloom?

``Hurr SHEIKH pey Ulloo baitha hai anjaam e gulistaaN kya ho gaa``

With due apologies to maulana mahir ul Quadri who said:

``Hurr SHAKH pey.......``

Now the comic/tragic part of it all is that the english have taught them to consider themselves the wise one & not to pay any heed to the other hints at their abilities.

``Talqueen e ahtiat voh furmaa rahey haiN aaj

Raah e vafaa mein khud jo kabhee motbir naa thay

Nairaangi-ay siasat e dauraaN tO dekhiyay

Manzil unhaiN milee jo shareek e sufar naa thay.``

Dionysis:

Agreed!

The issue is NOT Islam at all.It is the non-Islamic & un-Islamic lifestyle & behaviour of those who call themselves muslims.

The performance of certain caliphs,sultans,and monarchs was no different---and that precisely led to the decay.

The lifestyles certainly tells the tale of the corrupted soul.

__________________________________________________

hamidm just elaborated in his inimitable prose what I said earlier about the sniffing lions.

The rats of Iran also scurried around before jumping off the ship.No price is small to send them to their doom.The glomm would be then over.

``Ikk zaraa subr key faryaad key din thoray haiN.``

It won`t be long.

__________________________________________________

wassalaam

shankar #112

Muslim brotherhood doesn`t exist. Turks don`t give a frick about Arabs, that`s why Turkey has intimate diplomatic and even millitary links with Israel. Arabs don`t give a frick about Iranians, that`s why most of them are so friendly with Iran`s `Great Satan` the USA. And so on. Lack of `Muslim Ummah` support for the Kashmiris isn`t really such a big surprise.

However, that doesn`t mean that India has not wronged the Kashmiris. It doesn`t follow that India is not an illegal and brutal occupier of Kashmir.

One other thing. You claim that lack of Islamic Ummah support for Pakistan is due to the fact that they don`t believe our claim that we only support the Kashmiris morally and diplomatic. No offence, brother. This is a laughable statement. Do you honestly think they give sh *t about our millitary support of the Kashmiris?

Think about this. For 12 years we have been funding the Kashmiri War of Liberation. Not only have we provided the Kashmiris with money and arms to fight the Indian occupation force, but also with men. India harps on about this at every opportunity. How many Western countries have taken the slightest bit of notice of Indian harping? How many Western countries have broken off diplomatic relations with Pakistan because of our support of the Kashmiris? Nevermind that, in 12 years how many Western countries have even delivered a strongly worded rebuke to our country for its support of the Kashmiris? Do you see what I`m getting at?

hamidm #113

Yes, there is a mad rush to get out of Pakistan. I personally know dozens of people who have left and a dozen more (including several relatives) who are leaving before the end of this year. But I don`t know anyone who is leaving because of the `Islamic fundamentalist threat`. I have never heard anyone even speak of this supposed Islamic fundamentalist threat (I only read about it in our English language press). Are we both talking about the same Pakistan???

The reasons Pakistanis are leaving Pakistan are purely economic. The same reasons thousands of Indians leave India every year and millions more dream about it.

Come on now. Let`s not get carried away.

urstruly

... and another thing - you suggested i look at http://members.tripod.com/richpaki/ to find out who has been looting pakistan.... i did but did you ?

......... name any institutiion in pakistan that we can be proud of and i will give a name from your list of shame that was responsible for it ..... name one company that you would like to work for and i will give you a name from your list ..... want to start with LUMS and FAST that all of us are so proud of ? or, how about Dawood Hercules or Fecto or Cressoft where miserable engineering grads with degrees from rutgers can get 35,000 a month to start plus a mobile phone ?..... shame on you for picking on the people who paid the bills in 1947 and continue to risk their money and lives so that we can have a decent hotel room in karachi or lahore or islamabad ? ....... if it weren`t for them pakistan would have been like the barren wilderness to the north ? .......... robber barons - my foot ! ......... i just hope to your god you didn`t graduate from NED engineering college or the DOW medical college - talk about being ungrateful ! ........ and what have your beloved mullahs done for you .... all they want to do is change the name of Dyal Singh College and Ganga Ram Hospital while they build those dens of ignorance in mansoora and qartaba ......

......... look over that list very carefully and then compare those names to the birlas and the tatas and the hindujas across the border, and see how the horrible hindus treat their benefactors .... for ram`s sake, they even have a member of the ummah listed as the richest man in india ......... and therin lies the problem with us pakistanis - instead of building something oursleves we want to destroy what others have built simply because .......

.... so next time you check into the marriott in islamabad or the agha khan hospital in karachi make sure you don` t run into a member of the hashwani family because they own those beds ..... and don`t you dare try to get your nephew a job with any of the software companies funded by the terrible chiniotis who simply want their 25% return on assets and don`t give a crap about what a Ph.D fom rutgers does to get it ........

........ and talking about assets ... MCB`s assets of 165 billion do not belong to mian mansha - they belong to the depositers like you and me ......... by today`s world standards pakistan`s top 20 look like paupers and shame on you for picking on the only people in pakistan who are worth anything as productive human beings ..... and i thought you wer talking about the beauraucratic scum that these poor people have to bribe at every step...........

...... as ylh would say - razzak dawood and mian mansha , zindabad ... urstruly and qazi hussain murdabad !

THe last few posts between Dionysus, Urstruly and hamidm have been q. interesting...

If pakistan does get a fully islamic government (not taliban-like--i don`t think pakistani islam is like taliban islam: most pakistanis are barelvis who are strongly opposed to the taliban who are deobandis)--insha Allah-it will be quite different from what is going on in Afganistan. Probably more Iran like...

and as in the case with Iran those with most to lose --i.e. the top 0.1% will leave as they have always been the most decadent and able to do what they want; so islamic restrictions would hurt them the most--but it will not necessarily be a bad thing (read Prof. Akbar S Ahmed`s account of the activities of the pakistani elite in his book ``Jinnah: the search for saladin`` and u will realise why this band of people will leave pakistan if an islamic party comes into power; as for the middle and lower classes haven`t such people always been emigrating to foreign lands in search of a better economic condition? I`m sure if my parents had been rich they would have not had the need to move to the UK). Iran, despite 20 years of being isolated has more woman doctors now per 1000 people than it did in the heyday of the Shah`s regime (and indeed more than many european countries). Indeed, it is doing v. well given the circumstances...Pakistan too will survive and prosper...the prophets of doom,of course, will always be there...

Shankar, your comment that the grandchildren of Urstruly (and me and all other second-gen. muslims/desis in the us or europe) will become westernised is v. probably correct (which is why i insha Allah, when i have completed by doctorate, i want to move to pakistan and get married to an educated pakistani girl and bring up my family there...)

however there is a strange, and beautiful, phenomenon going on now in these countries..many of the educated second gen. youth (i.e. those with degrees or higher) are actually turning BACK to traditional islam under the influence of educated reverts (all thru sufism) like Abd al Hakim Murad in the UK, and Imam Hamza Yusuf and Shaikh Nuh Keller in the US. All these people are law-abiding model citizens who have achieved-or will prob. achieve the ``American dream`` (big house, good job with good salary, car etc. i.e. material wealth) and yet they are returning to Islam in numbers. So, maybe there IS hope yet for our next generation insha Allah...

If even a small %age of these people go back to pakistan it will have a great effect on our economy--and these people would like to live in an islamic pakistan...

so there is hope u see...

The great Turkish Naqshbandi Sufi and scholar of the 20th century Beddiuzzaman Said Nursi (who was a contemporary--and fierce critic-- of Itaturk though he far outlived him) wrote that Europe was pregnant with an Islamic child and the East with a Western child. Both, he said, would give birth...

It seems his words were indeed inspired....

Perhaps a house clean, which the ``Islamists`` will provide is what pakistan needs...

Pakistan Zindabad!

zahra #115

in the united states, the word “liberal” has evolved from the definition you provided. Now “liberal” refers to people, on the left, who believe that the government needs to manage and regulate the affairs of people to achieve their perceived idea of fairness even though this often entails trampling over personal freedoms outlined in the u.s. constitution and bill of rights including free speech and property ownership. The u.s. liberals wan to do this in many ways including regulation and management of business, affirmative action, socialized education and medicine, the welfare state, and seizure of individual property through high taxation. U.s. conservatives, ironically, are the original “liberals,” (definition in post 115) and subscribe to the true “liberal” values of individual freedom articulated by america’s founding fathers. Conservatives got their name because they want to conserve or maintain those individual liberties against the rising tide of collectivism. Kind of funny how that worked out.

Some Interesting Letters in TFT.
http://server35.hypermart.net/thefridaytimes/letters.htm`s

I)In the (Azizian) red

Sir,

SALE, SALE, SALE: For sale, a South Asian nuclear kleptocracy the size of Texas, known in jest as the Land of the Pure. Led successively by nincompoops of all stripe, it has 140 million impoverished, illiterate, apathetic, but not incurably incompetent citizens, who are ready to sell their mothers to emigrate to the West.

Three species - justice, ideals, and sane economic policy - are verifiably extinct, and two more - good management and hope - have very nearly vanished. All institutions have been corrupted fatally. Natural resources are abundant, but either abused or unexploited. Inflation and unemployment constantly rise. The country is deeply confused about its direction, future prospects, and indigenous culture, although it has been known as an Islamic republic, a phrase dubbed an oxymoron by many. The balance of payments is so deeply in the red that a new variety of red has had to be invented, called Azizian, in honour of a few finance ministers who share a surname.

The country`s greatest export commodity is its manpower, and already our compatriots are to be found everywhere except the poles of the earth. The most abundant commodity available here is hot air, expelled by 150 million mouths spouting hypocrisies. The country`s greatest production is babies, fated to be illiterate, exploited, and poor all their lives.

The citizens and their rulers share nothing except four things: lip service to religion, insatiable avarice, an infinite capacity for self-delusion, and a contempt for the law. A rising minority believes that the cause of the country`s woes lies in its violation of Islamic principles. This minority is currently running a full-dress governance rehearsal in a nearby theatre called Afghanistan, but the previews have failed to win international applause.

Various rulers of the country have been known to sell anything to get their next fix. Their addictions - foreign aid and weapons - have been supplied willingly in the past, for selfish reasons, by the imperialist West.

Goods previously sold by this country include national pride, sovereignty, a decent education and health, and the future. There is no limit to what can and will be sold next. Bargaining is welcome, and is facilitated by a special breed of smooth paper-pushers, commonly known as bureaucrats.

The price for which this country is available has been falling ever since the US turned off its aid spigot a decade ago. The current going rate is the amount for the next foreign aid repayment instalment, due towards the middle of 2001. Nations of the West are especially invited to bid, in order to forestall their shores from being inundated by ever-larger hordes of the Pure.

Would give more description but have run out of foreign exchange for this advertisement. Details available at www.misgov.org (apologies in advance if the website proves to be dysfunctional, like everything else here).

Khuram Dastgir Khan, Gujranwala.

II ``Back to the Taliban``


Sir,

I am sick of reading about the Afghans dying of cold and hunger. I am not a cold-hearted, callous person, but I object to helping them because thousands of their refugees are in Pakistan, and they are eating us alive. Why should we help the Afghans when our own people are starving? Afghans are nothing but cunning parasites, living off our country and our people. Why don`t they go back to the oh-so-human Taliban?

Shazia Said, Islamabad.

III) ``One-sided deal``

Sir,

The Taliban are constantly calling upon Islamabad to allow refugees entry into Pakistan. As a fellow Muslim nation, Pakistan has already helped Afghanistan in many situations. But what has Pakistan got in return? Over 2 million Afghan refugees, more fighting in Afghanistan, more killings in Pakistan, less food for Pakistanis, fewer job opportunities for our Pathan brothers, less health benefits for Pakistanis, and Peshawar turned into a miniature Afghanistan. Now it is time for the Pakistani people to say that they simply cannot afford to take any more Afghan refugees.

Fawad Khwaja, Milwaukee.

Zahra #115

In your post you asked shankar that do all Indians think alike as if they don`t?

Judgung by Shammi, Sadhna, Pardesi, famous Jay etc I cannot differentiate who is who if I don`t see the name on top. You have to look at the top to see who has written it.

If I read the name, I usually use the right bottom button on computer, because the content is already known to me. (And I also laugh at the seriousness of their discussion).

I always read new writer in the hope that democracy and secularism might be producing varied thoughts. But alas it is super democracy and super secularism where rights are curbed in the name of democracy and secularism. (I think it is a thing of future or very distant past)

Were you joking?

Shankar, the ``Hindu extremists`` merely made reality apparent, they did not bring us to the edge of nuclear extinction.

If it is who made India nuclear -- the answer is Mrs. Indira Gandhi, and she was hardly a ``Hindu extremist``.

If you believe that Pakistan created its bomb in the two weeks after the BJP govt. conducted tests, then you have your head up your a--.

-Arun Gupta

``We (Muslims) did not grow out to be one billion, living in the far and wide corner of this planet just because of the miracle of birth alone (like Hindus). ``

a. Hindus have ranged from Afghanistan to Indonesia.

b. To quote Khaled Ahmed in the Friday Times, contraception undercuts the basis of jihad. If Muslims number a billion today it is because of an enormous birthrate, even higher than that of Hindus. Call it the miracle of lack of birth control.

-Arun Gupta

Shankar #112

I will point out the flaws in your argument.

My personal opinion regarding Indians after visiting this forum is that most of them are extremely biased and bigoted. The reasons.

1- Some of your fellow countrymen including you are preaching about bad Arabs. My thinking from the very beginning is that apart from the religious aspects Arabs and even Iranians don`t discriminate in jobs. For them they are hiring people who can provide the service.(Iran and Arab are two most fundamentalist Muslim countries) Compare this to one of your fellow who was actively preaching for not hiring Pakistanis in US and I have seen the discrimination done to me in US also(within legal framework off course). Moreover compared to America which wants (not force) expatriates to spend their money in US, Arabs and Iranians pay the salary and don`t care where expatriates are sending their remittance.

As long as they don`t break the law like drinking etc, they have no problem.

So you not only knew this, as is evidenced by your example. But you were and are inciting Pakistanis against Arabs.

While Arabs have been as friendly to Pakistani or Indians or Bangladeshi and also as bad to them. In fact Arabs have much more kind to Pakistan throughout its history. Why don`t you ask your countrymen to break complete relations with heathen Arabs instead of preaching to us, if you and your countrymen think them so bad.

2- This brings to more confirmation of bigotry. That although you think Arabs are bad, but for your gain you want to befriend them. Does it remind you of saying of some old sage`` Bughal Mein Churi`` Tell me if Jaswant Singh was doing ``Ram Ram`` in Saudi Arabia and to retract India`s support for Israel.

If a Pakistani-North American is going to preach, he/she should attempt to do so to the students of Stanford and Yale, and not to the students of LUMS and Karachi University. Then again, getting a speaking gig at Stanford is pretty hard, so why not fly out to Pakistan, preach a bit to the students on their own problems, and then fly back.

People who live outside of Pakistan should not preach to or about Pakistan and Pakistanis. First of all it’s arrogant. Secondly, it is impossible for people who have been outside Pakistan to know the exact situation inside Pakistan. Thirdly, talkers, writers and expatriate intellectuals, who only preach and do not do anything materially for Pakistan, as a combined group, are doing much less for Pakistan than the sweeper who picks up a piece of trash on a Pakistani street, and puts it in his/her bag.

This article falls into the expatriate-preaching category. So I am not quite sure whether it carries any weight. If a person has left a senior management position at a struggling dot com to take a junior position at Cisco or Microsoft, then he should not try to preach to his ex-colleagues who are still trying to make the dot com successful. What he should do is to help the dot com materially.

The true heroes of Pakistan are the individuals who could walk into jobs in their arenas, anywhere in the world, yet continue to live in Pakistan, and fight it out. This includes people like Imran Khan, Atta-ur-Rahman, Pervez Hoodbhoy (even though his military analysis are quite naive, and I wish he would stick to his areas of expertise), etc.

I would put Musharraf in this category, as well (to a surprise of many, I assume). Being the COAS of one of the biggest armies in the world is a hell of a job; a better job than being the Prime Minister. It is a great feeling to have the respect and authority to be able to move 5 lakh troops at the lifting of one`s finger; a power all Pakistani Prime Minsters envy. The penalty for a coup can be death. The only reason a COAS would take such a personal risk is if he wanted to benefit materially himself, his family and friends, or if he really wanted to solve the problems of Pakistan. Zia and Ayub`s families and friends have benefited greatly from their respective positions of power. However, in Musharraf`s case, none of his family members seem to have benefited.

The other heroes of Pakistan are actually the poor sweeper who cleans the streets, the poor farmer who tills the land, and the poor soldier who protects the border, etc. They have more of a right to speak about Pakistani problems at Pakistani universities, then people who fly in for a holiday.

It is not every Pakistani`s moral duty to stick it out in Pakistan, and try to reform the system from the inside. Migration is allowed in our culture, society and religion(s). In fact, the Islamic calendar starts from a day of migration. Many people (like myself) migrated because they were jobless in Pakistan. Others migrated for similar personal reasons. These reasons are generally economic and have very little to do with religion or religious extremism; otherwise no one would agree to migrate to Saudia Arabia from Pakistan (or from India, for that matter). It is not every (ex)- Pakistani`s moral duty to do something for the homeland either, after having migrated. Good if they do, but not bad if they don`t.

It is however every expatriate`s duty to refrain from preaching, once they have decided they are not going to attempt to reform the system from within. I hated it when America return Pakistanis did this when I was in Pakistan. And I try my best not to do it, whenever I return, even if it is on a business trip in a consulting role.

Expatriates should discuss the problems of Pakistan, hopefully because they are simultaneously doing something material and practical to solve them. Otherwise they are better off discussing the effects of same sex marriages on the social fabric of New Hampshire and Saskatchewan, and any other areas where they currently live.

When expatriates go to Pakistan to give lectures, they need to stick to their areas of expertise, and not try to preach to their audiences on problems the expatriates have themselves not experienced for decades. An IT professional, from North America, going to Pakistan to deliver a lecture, should stick to what he knows and is up to date with, i.e. the IT industry in North America, or IT in general. Similarly a sociologist going to Pakistan should speak on the social issues of North America; since that is the only area he/she has practical knowledge of.

A person can do a Ph.D. on the traffic patterns of Karachi, but he/she will not be able to actually understand the Karachi streets, unless he/she takes a bus from Nazimabad to Korangi on a regular basis.

Urstruly #109

Bhai Kisi Kunwein Main Baithey Ho Kia.

Pakistani economy getting independent because of fleeing of people. And mostly looters.

Which looter of Pakistan has left Pakistan so far out of his free will. Tell me a single name.

BB and NS are only out because of political reasons and not loot.

And why should they. Only the modus operandi is changed. And now they have to share the loot with some new faces.

Scout Se Mazrat Ke Saath. Kub Tuk Awaam ko ``c`` Banao Ge.

It is the middle class and lower middle class people who are doing mass exodus due to economic necessity.

And off course Qazi Sahab is still there to give sanctity to the loots and looters.

Tumhein Jamation Ne Kahani Gharne Pe Lagaya Hua Hai Kia.

Pakistan Ki Mukhalfat Ka Kitna Khiraj Abhi Mowdudi Sahab Ke Cheelon Ko Logon Se Wasul Karna Hai Is pur Bhi Roshni Daliey.

I see with every passing day increase in debt, increase in illiteracy, increase in defense spending, increase in denying the rights to people, increase in intolerance, increase in suicide. If your criteria of progress revolves around this then Pakistan is beating all the countries of world except Nigeria.

USSA #107

It is good to put your credentials.

Otherwise like ylh and others I would have taken you as biased bigoted Indian.

Degree Sare Paap Dho Deti Hai. Sianon Ne Yehi Samjha Hai. Bevkoof Siane.

Siagalph 235 #104

I am ashamed of my role in East Pakistan. At that time being a member of Mohajir community, I was fooled also (although I was about 10 years of age). Even the apologist of Pakistan like Colonel Siddiq Salik in his book ``Mein Ne Dhaka Doobte Dekha`` has depicted very gloomy economic picture of common Bengali at that time.

I still revere my (later) brother in law, who voted for Awami League in the name of rights of East Pakistan.

Shair Sunane Se Kisi Ko Sharam Aa Jaye to Aadmi Deewan Bhi Likh Sakta Hai.

Jo Besharam Hain Apni Behai Ka Juwaz To dein Ge.

Reply 91

Sheesh Naag

I am aware of Murphy`s Law (sad fact of life :)) but what is Peter Principle?? pls elaborate - thankyou