This Visit To Pakistan

Krashid and Zahra,

Yes...Everyone can see that Indians share a great deal more in their thinking than do Pakistanis.

This came as a surprise to me, at first. I now realize that what I had assumed to be the common beliefs of all Pakistanis were in fact mostly the sustaining principles of Pakistan`s Mullah-Military Complex and its minions. It is the common misfortune of many intelligent, free-thinking Pakistanis and the rest of the non-Afghanistan world that the Mullah-Military complex is all that has come to matter in Jinnah`s Pakistan. So to an outsider, Pakistan - despite all her amazing bahmeds and tahmeds - appears as nothing more than a sinking house of dogma and war.

Do you people have any theories on why Indians today have far more developed a common mind than do Pakistanis? Is it centralized brainwashing by the central government? Is it a conspiracy hatched by all Indians? Is it Brahminical tyranny on the rest of us all? Is it the well-known evil nature of all Hindus and all things Hindu? The treacherous Zee TV people who some Pakistanis claim (at least on this board) put them to sleep? A grand western design to contain the magnificent and ever-glorious China and tar all Muslims? American hegemony? Christian fear of the brave and dedicated people of Pakistan? A natural outcome of the beauteous and misunderstood Jihad?

May be, all of those things?

#93 & #91

Méré bhaii, aap toe l`rr`aii pé hii u`tt`r aa`ié! Shant r`hee`a. Anger is injurious to one`s health! I wish to see you around for a long, long time.

I suggest that you take a glass of cold water. Pass it, the water, that is. Then drink another glass of cold water.

Now write. Read it when finished. Re-read it and see if it makes any sense. If it doesn`t, pass water and take another glass of cold water.

Repeat this aml [routine] till it, the letter, that is, makes sense to you. When it does, show it to a literate friend. On his/her advice mail it or rewrite it after you pass that water.

Before starting to re-write take a glass of....

P.S. Your composition and grammar leave room for improvement. T`wjh`o fr`ma`ee`a. Spellings may be the victim of not having mastered typing. I do that too.

KRashid,

Let me tell you the genesis of my recent ire. Its been URstruly`s frequent posting of hindu genocide in Kashmir--even when the articles had NOTHING to do with Kashmir.

I have been very critical of India`s behaviour in Kashmir. I have REPEATEDLY said that Kashmiris should get independance. Also, I have had many fights with hindu bigots on Chowk. Now,if you just scan a post written by an Indian because ``all you guys are bigotted`` , then its your problem, not mine.

Having said that, what pissed me off is URstuly`s repeated pious remonstrations of how wonderful & noble Pakistan is & how right & just their role in Kashmir is. To top it off, he justifies West Pakistan`s behaviour in 71 against the Bengalis! I think thats a load of BULL. Then he has the balls to tell hindus to fall on their knees & beg Pakistan & Kashmir for mercy & forgiveness.

The purpose of my telling you guys how the Arabs & Iranians are reacting to your propaganda is that they are not buying this ONE BIT. That DOES NOT mean they are buying Indian propaganda either.India & the other Islamic countries are practising realpolitick. Why are they continuing diplomatic & trade relations with us? Ideologically, both sides have very different views. However, India & the rest of the Islamic world has decided to put their ideology on the shelf & continue to do business.

Obviously, the other Islamic countries think its beneficial to have trade & diplomatic relations with India. The same cant be said about them & Israel. Why?!--I really dont have a clue (but I`m sure some Indians will enlighten us about that). India doesnt preach to them & they dont preach to India. So our relations are good purely from a pragmatic (not ideological) point of view. So, in a way, they are just as much ``bagal mein churi`` as we hindus are.

When you accuse me of inciting Pakistanis against Arabs--you are giving me too much credit:) I`m just an armchair desi who has left India more than 20 years ago; with no expertise in IR. What the hell difference does it make to you guys what I think? Obviously, India or the Gulf govts dont give a s *it what I think or that I even exist. I`m just beginning to understand what our resident expert FerozK has been saying, all along.

I used to accuse Feroze of suffering from clinical depression when he would say Pakistan`s future is screwed & that the fundos are going to take over, sooner or later. He said that Pakistanis have been screwed so often that sooner or later something is going to snap. People just cant keep getting screwed indefinitly before they rise & say enough is enough. When that revolution does come it will be a fundo revolution. Pakistan will get off the train & become an inward looking isolationist country, like Burma.

Lastly, this is a very curious human phenomenon. When Indians say the SAME thing that many Pakistanis say, we are Slammed about PREACHING. Let me give you an example by quoting you:

{{{I see with every passing day increase in debt, increase in illiteracy, increase in defense spending, increase in denying the rights to people, increase in intolerance, increase in suicide. If your criteria of progress revolves around this then Pakistan is beating all the countries of world except Nigeria.}}}

If you as a Pakistani can say this,its fine. BUT , if I as an INDIAN says the same thing, I`m accused of preaching.

Go figure!

re: Tahmad321 :

Jagdeep strikes you as a sikh name. fair enough. But I have heard names : Jagdeep Kumar, jagdeep shah and jagdeep singh.

ylh #135, ``What the hell do you have against Rutgers... I invite you all to visit me at Rutgers New Brunswick and see for yourself how good/bad it is!``

They`re just jealous. Ignore kardo ;)

Stop the genocide in Pakistan.

``Multan (Pakistan), Feb. 26. (Reuters): Masked gunmen killed a Shiite Muslim activist at a village in the Central Pakistan province of Punjab today in what seemed to be the latest incident in a wave of sectarian violence, police said.

They said Tanvir Shah was driving home from Vehari district in southern Punjab when two unidentified gunmen on a motorcycle sprayed bullets at his car with automatic weapons.

The gunmen fled after the shooting, which follows similar attacks recently between militants from the majority Sunni and the minority Shiite sects of Islam.

Unidentified gunmen killed a Shiite religious leader and two other Shiites in separate shootings four days ago.

Hundreds of people have been killed in recent years in clashes between Sunni and Shiite militants, whose followers disagree over the interpretation of some Islamic beliefs.

Police have arrested hundreds of Sunni activists in Punjab province in the past few days to avert possible violence after the scheduled hanging of a Sunni activist on Wednesday for the murder of an Iranian official in 1990.``

For all those liberal (in the ``Western`` sense) Pakistanis who love Pakistan and whose hearts bleed for it (such as hamidm and Hassan Gardezi, and not the blinds with eyes), I have a few questions:

Can bearded Pakistan be shaved? If yes, then how? If no, is this then the end of Pakistan I knew and grew in from about the mid 60s to the end of 1973 when I left it? Or that Pakistan is already dead never to be resurrected? Am I right, is there no hope?

Anil

Thank you for the invite, I am looking forward to it, and thanks for the encouragement.

Yasser Hamdani

Krashid # 142

So what are the questions-I am still waiting.

A slight diversion! An interesting read.

http://www.ebusinessforum.com/index.asp?layout=debi_country_home&country_id=PK&country=Pakistan&channelid=6&title=Doing+e-business+in+Pakistan

Zahra #157:

Thank you for the site. After reading the following two sections we come back to the core question, don`t we?

rgds,

t

_____________________________________________-

Pakistan: Law and regulation

A. Regulatory issues
Traditionally the state has taken centre stage in the Pakistan`s economic development. The growing Islamic influence on the state will however mean that the Internet will not be truly free. It is not clear if the government will allow private ISPs to chose their own international gateways for fear of losing control.

B. Intellectual property law
There is as yet no specific legislation protecting intellectual property rights in an e-commerce setting. However, Pakistan does not have a very good record of protecting computer software and piracy is common.

C. E-contract readiness
Given the extremely low value of e-commerce in the country, the government has not decided on strategies to deal with the Internet.

D. Censorship
The government is keen to ensure that `Islamic morals` remain untouched. After the military coup, the government is especially interested to ensure that the Internet does not become a means of spreading sedition.

E. Consumer protection
There is no legislation specifically outlining consumer rights in e-commerce transactions.

F. Compliance
There is no legislation specifically related to e-commerce contract disputes.


and


Pakistan: taxation

A. Basis of taxation

The government has yet to establish how it will deal with issues of taxation arising from e-commerce.

B. Classification of e-commerce transactions

Similarly, no definition has been established for what constitutes an e-commerce transaction

C. Compliance and enforcement issues

Compliance and enforcement has traditionally been a serious problem in Pakistan. Intellectual property violations are common and the law is often broken with impunity. Enforcement has been a problem because of a corrupt bureaucracy and a high level of collusion between private enterprises and the government.

krashid #127: The change of nick was because the Chowk scripts seem to be unable to recognize my old one, half the time.

I always have difficulty understanding your posts. They seem to start out by insulting other repliers, and then end up with insulting Pakistanis (some of whom are actually trying to make a difference in Pakistan). Perhaps the key to success for Pakistanis is to attempt to insult as many people as possible, who do not agree with one`s own point of view. Then again, perhaps I cannot understand your replies because English is my second language, and thus I cannot comprehend what you are attempting to express in your replies.

``I don`t know what Imran Khan would do at this age in a foreign country. (I don`t think he can now even ask for a date). His hobbies these days are travelling and asking for ``Chanda`` for Hospital.``

Considering the fact that Imran Khan was given a special passport by the UN, he could walk into any country in the world. I hope the day never arrives in Pakistan where philanthrapists end up being insulted, but perhaps that day has already arrived. I am much more scared of people who insult philanthrapy, then I am of any religious fanatic. Since philanthrapy is perhaps the greatest of human actions.

I do not know whether you have had a chance to visit or work with the cancer hospital Imran Khan has built. I also do not know whether you have witnessed the dedication with whihc it has been built. Travelling the world and, ``asking for Chanda`` takes a lot of courage and hard work. Don`t knock it, until you have tried it. The fact that Imran Khan cannot, ``ask for a date`` is really his personal business. Why does that bother you so much?

``Which country is waiting to put an army man on the position of All in All of a country. He did it on the barrell of gun.``

This is partially true. Actually at the time of the current coup, literally everyone in Pakistan was begging the Army to kick out Nawaz Sharif, specially since the Shariah Bill was about to become law. That is why not a single person out of 130 million came out on the streets in support of the govt. that had been kicked out. Army takeovers in Pakistan have generally been welcomed by the general populace. The only problem has been that once the Army has come into power (a better phrase is once the COAS comes into power), it/he never leaves. And doesn`t do too much while he is in power.

I think Musharraf will leave in three years, and is trying to do his best to solve Pakistan`s problems. Pakistan has always had dictators as rulers, at least during my lifetime. Bhutto, Zia, Nawaz Sharif, Benazir and Musharraf were and are all dictators. Some were civilian dictators and others were military dictators; but dictators all the same. Out of all of these, Musharraf is the only one who hasn`t gone after the civilian population either through personal and party corruption, or through forcing his own religious or liberal beliefs down everyone`s throats. He has also put together a cabinet that consists of professionals (an unknown concept in Pakistan). And this is easily the most honest govt. in the history of the country.

I don`t know how many problems they will be able to solve. But they are still better than the other options at the moment. I do think that if they leave in three years, and put in some sort of checks and balances to ensure that the incoming politicians cannot go back to their own merry ways, Pakistan should see quite a bit of improvement in seven to eight years or so.

The other option is to hope against hope that a knight in shining armor will come to lead Pakistan, having been elected through an ideal democratic process, and will be able to motivate the power groups in Pakistan, like the feudals, the religious fanatics, the defaulting businessmen etc. to reform their ways, instead of forcing them to. I don`t see that knight on the horizon anywhere. So it is better to make do with the best of what is available.

Of course, the final option is to sit and insult anyone and everyone, including the people who are trying to put up cancer hospitals in Pakistan and trying to reform the systems in Pakistan. Cynicism and insults do play well to the peanut gallery, but I do not know of any situation, institution or country that has been reformed through cynicism and insults.

Godot #154 ``Am I right, is there no hope?``

Make yourself some refreshing orange juice (with ice), turn on some classical music, flop down on an easy chair, close your eyes, take a deep breath, and relax with tahmed`s Laws of Paki Politics:

First Law:

RV(t) = 1/MNC(t) where

RV(t) = Religious Violence (dependent factor)

MNC(t) = Magnitude of National Crises (exogenous factor)

t = current time period

Second Law:

MPR(t) = C times MNC(t+1)

where

MPR(t) = Magnitude of Problems we worry about today that will be actually Realized in t+1

C = Very low valued absolute number (between 0 and 0.0000000001)

Now you have relaxed enough, so I present you with the Third Law so you dont get too comfortable:

Third Law:

MPW(t) = MNC(t+1)

where

MPW(t) is total Magnitude of Problems you Worry about today

shankar #139

No, you don`t get it all. For the last 12 years India has been selling itself to the West as the champion and defender of secularism and democracy valiantly struggling against the world-threatening menace of Islamic fundementalism (phew!). Indian propagandists have desperately been trying to persuade the West that the future of the whole of human civilization depends on their support in defeating millitants in Kashmir. Yet after 12 years of tireless effort you haven`t managed to elicit a SINGLE mild rebuke against Pakistan for our support of the Kashmiri War of Liberation and not one Western democracy recognizes Kashmir as a part of India. So please spare us this `India is just so Big and Bad` crap. It doesn`t impress anyone.

In the last year alone my (relatively small) group has employed three Indian research engineers. Two are products of IITs and one is from the University of Pune. Smart guys with excellent academic backgrounds and as good as anything coming out of Western universities. Well done India for putting in place such a fine higher educational system!

But please, please don`t me give me this crap about India being such a f--king paradise that no Indian wants to leave it. I know better. These guys have told me themselves that in India they would be earning $40 a month in a crappy little progamming job and that no way are they going back to live in India. Indians are just as desperate to get into the West as Pakistanis. If you`re going to use outward migration as the yardstick to measure success then India is just as big a failure as Pakistan. The only difference is your English press doesn`t make a song and dance about it, unlike the inveterate whingers and cry-babies in our English language press.

Reply 138

Fuzair

An interesting but sour perspective. More appealing - where everyone rises to&beyond their level of competency - a la Peter ``Plus`` Principle - or does it exist already?? Thanks for spreading the wealth.

aicha

Tahmad 321

Have you been sniffing something funny lately?