This Visit To Pakistan

ali1#85 ``The bearded Islamist sphincter is twitching in anticipation as the Tomahawk closes in.``

OK...

I dont think that will fix anything, though, since the sphincter in question is not important. The mullahs are a symptom, as are the non-bearded greedy and power hungry ones in Pakistan. Do away with all of them, and a new Maudoodi or a new Zia or a new Nawaz Sharif or a new Benazir will take their place. And there will be violence and strife as long as such people come to power in Pakistan (since if they are not fighting India or the West, they will be fighting one another for the spoils as is happening in Afghanistan). The underlying problem, imho, is physical poverty among the population at large, and moral poverty among the few ``elite`` (beared or otherwise). This underlying problem will take a little while to go away.

The best thing we can do, I think, is to start with ourselves as individuals - considering our actions in light of certain values: intellectual and material honesty, logical thinking, and malice towards none. And acting accordingly. And God will then help us, and that is the only help we need.

tahmed321 #100:

Well said...!

Worth repeating:

``The mullahs are a symptom, as are the non-bearded greedy and power hungry ones in Pakistan. Do away with all of them, and a new Maudoodi or a new Zia or a new Nawaz Sharif or a new Benazir will take their place. And there will be violence and strife as long as such people come to power in Pakistan (since if they are not fighting India or the West, they will be fighting one another for the spoils as is happening in Afghanistan). The underlying problem, imho, is physical poverty among the population at large, and moral poverty among the few ``elite`` (beared or otherwise).``

And the mantra worth repeating from every pulpit, minaret, podium, baithak, temple, church and auditorium.

``The best thing we can do, I think, is to start with ourselves as individuals - considering our actions in light of certain values: intellectual and material honesty, logical thinking, and malice towards none. And acting accordingly. And God will then help us, and that is the only help we need.``

Well said ...!

regards,

temporal

Shankar # 99

I am glad that now you have realized the difference between ASKING and TELLING. Therefore, I will try to answer your questions:

1. Liberalism: A political and social theory that favors representative government, freedom of press, speech, and worship, the abolition of the class priviliges, the use of state resources to protect the welfare of the individual, and International Free trade:

As you can see that this definition:

- this definition does not include consorting with enemies.

- Insulting one’s religious ideals, personalities, and way of worship.

- It does not exclude any particular group of people from taking part in political process- why single out the people whom liberals call Mullahs then.

- This definition does not include abolition of the very ideology on which Pakistan was founded.

- It does not include taking human rights stand only on those issues, which fit their agenda while ignoring others.

- The people who call themselves liberals in Pakistan are an exact opposite of what the definition and the points above say. It is a shame for the notion of liberalism that these people associate themselves with it. A good terminology to define them would be the word Pseudo-Liberals, who don’t know Alif and Bay of Liberalism.

- In Pakistan people who call themselves liberals have been a perfect fit as I profiled them in my post # 73.

- If the people that you have listed fit this profile then they are pseudo-liberals. I let you and them be the judge.

2. I do not agree with your assertion. I think you need your facts re-checked. You must keep in mind that as the Hindu extremist have brought the whole region to the brink of nuclear extinction the world has become more cautious on the issue of Kashmir. They (Hindus) must keep this in mind that they cannot fight people forever. They have lost this war already when they shot the first Kashmiri.

3. I think you are interested to know the Islamic stance on the issue of leaving homeland and make a living abroad, then I tell you we are encouraged to do so. We (Muslims) did not grow out to be one billion, living in the far and wide corner of this planet just because of the miracle of birth alone (like Hindus). If we live in West, it is not because of their (West) charitable nature, we contribute immensely to their economy. Islam considers people of all societies as a part of a global village. As in any village the peace can only prevail if the principles of justice are upheld. We (Muslims) cannot just shut up and let those people do injustices who are strong just because we are trying to make a living in their land. It is wrong to assume and say that Islamists “hate” West just because it is West. It is only that we can not let the Neo-Colonialism and global injustices prevail and grow. Islam is nothing but “Ask people to do the right, and tell them not to do the wrong”-(it’s a Quranic verse). If West establishes an equitable and just global society then there is no reason for either to be confrontational. (You may extend this argument to include India and Kashmir too).

urstruly

``Your ``droning wails and messages of doom and gloom`` are nothing new to us either. `` ........... please don`t shoot the messenger - even if he is a horrible hindoo

.......... the fundamentalist threat to Pakistan is very real - a few weeks ago i was sitting with two of the six computer science Ph.D`s in pakistan as they discussed their ``escape`` plans when the mullahs take over ......all, without exception, pakistani entrepreneurs have already secured a safe haven in Canada or other filthy corners of the decadent west while they wait for the coming storm .....people with hard-cash are putting most of it in overseas banks .... retiring professionals, army officers and civil-servants are commuting their pensions and converting rupees into dollars to be put in safety-deposit boxes and banks in the UAE - not in FE-25 accounts ......the money changers are busier than ever.........people who can least afford it are sending their kids abroad to ``study`` ....... even the not-so-dedicated mullahs are lined up at the US embassy willing to give up god`s service for a cabbie`s life in new york city.........

........... have you tried to sell a house in islamabad in the last two years ? ....... do you know anyone who had expanded his khadi business in faisalabad ? ........ how much money has honda or toyota or suzuki invested in the last few years ? ........ the honda ``assembly`` plant in lahore is a joke ........ have you checked out the country`s foreign currency reserves or balance of payments ?........... have you been to saddar in pindi and tried to spot the locals among the afghans ?......... how much does it cost to fill up a 1200 cc toyota ? - more than an army captain makes in almost a week ........... during ramadhan bananas were 60 rupees a dozen - a dehari mazdoor makes a 100 a day, if and when he can find work ........... most school children think muhammad bin qasim discovered india and have never heard of ashoka or chandra gupta or any other horrible hindoo .......... ptv features koranic recitation with a still of the holy book for half the day, and talking beards for the other half ............ islamabad mosques, which a few years ago could barely muster four rows, are spilling out into the streets ........... mullahs in islamabad berate the oxford and cambridge educated gentry for letting their women out into the bazaars without escorts ........ have you noticed how many army officers sport mullah omar style beards ? ........ osama is perhaps the favourite name for newborn baby boys ........candidates for a house-officers job at the decrepit institute of medical sciences are being asked to recite dua-i-qanoot ...... first semester engineering students are required to take islamiat before trignometry ........and on and on and on

.......... so let`s not beat up on the messengers who, although they speak with a forked tongue, still speak the truth ............

re urstruly

``Your naked aggression on East pakistan...``

India is guilty of a lot of things including agression against several princely states and gross human rights abuses in Kashmir. The `aggression against East Pakistan`` is not one of those things though. On 26 March 1971 East Pakistan ceased to exist and a new nation was born. After that day the only `aggression` was that of the Occupation Forces. Indian troops, as part of the Allied Forces, were invited into Bangladesh with concurrence of the elected provisional government and asked to leave later by the same authority. Accusing India of aggression against East Pakistan is like accusing the French for aggression against British North America during the Revolutionary War.

I know it assuages the feelings of nostalgia among many sincere Pakistanis to keep referring to East Pakistan when that thing was gone on the first dawn of March 26 1971. But if are to move past the painful past, an acknowledgement of reality must be faced. Fifty three years of blaming everything on India has brought Pakistan to the brink of internal collapse and external ostracism while India is arguably semi-superpower in every sense of the term. Why don`t you guys start using epithets like `traitor` for the lead singers in the blame chorus?

re krashid 94

Leave poor F_K alone!His discomfort at the sight and sounds of the West is only symptomatic of the old wicked `zaahid` of many a poem as

`sab hasiin hain zaahidon ko napasand

ab ko_ii huur ayegi in ke liye` (Ameer Minai)

Also, if Muslim indentity has something to do with Ghalib, Meer, Momin, and Faiz, praise the lord! I am happy. Those guys loved wine, women, and revelry. Now I am beginning to wonder about F_K :):) I mean after all didn`t Ghalib himself say something to the effect (I am butchering it here Zahra)

`Peene de zaahid masjid me baith kar

Ya woh jaga bata de jahaan Khuda na ho`

Is that what you do F_K?

Farangi_Kush #65

Let me be perfectly honest, I don`t share your opinions on Islam being the solution to our problems. However, I agree with you that the so-called `liberals` of Pakistan, not the Maulvis, are responsible for getting us in this mess (BTW, a Pakistani `liberal` is a very different creature to a Western liberal. We really need to think of a seperate name for these people).

To see who the real culprits are I strongly urge you to check out this website:

`Who owns Pakistan?`

http://members.tripod.com/richpaki/

Thank you, chowk for publishing yet another intelligent, analytically complex and essential piece for reading and discussion, by Hasan Gardezi.

If enough Indian and Pak expats of Gardezi`s calibre could make common cause for the benefit India, Pakistan and indeed all of South Asia, that region would be the most prosperous and progressive area in the entire world.

How about it?

Professor Chithra Karunakaran

Sociology

City University of New York

`Peene de zaahid masjid me baith kar

Ya woh jaga bata de jahaan Khuda na ho`

zahid sharab peeany day masjid main beth kar

ya woh jaga bata day jehan par kuda na ho!

- Dagh

Hamidm:

And why wouldn`t the following people see doom and gloom in Pakistan:

http://members.tripod.com/richpaki/

The party is over. People of Pakistan must thank these people for all the hardship they (people) are suffering now.

Pakistani economy is in transition from an Aid-based dependent economy to Independent economy. It is good that the people who were responsible for keeping this economy dependent are fleeing-good for them and best for us. And dont you ever underestimate the power of people. They have always prevailed. They have always outlived all dictators, ideologies, economies, Kings, and President. Pakistan will prevail too Inshaalah.

urstruly

``It is good that the people who were responsible for keeping this economy dependent are fleeing-good for them and best for us.``

.......... sometimes it is a blessing to be young and naive .... unfortunately, the people i am talking about are those who keep the miserable economy from collapsing completely - they are the small entrepreneurs who started from scratch and worked day and night to build their businesses which employ thousands of poor pakistanis ..... i am talking about the owners of broadway bakery in pindi, a landmark for fifty years; the owners of a small re-rolling mill who started as kabarias barely twenty years ago; the engineer turned entreprenur who built steel windows and turned out cotton yarn in faisalabad for twenty years; CS graduates from the best universities in the US ( not rutgers ) who threw away senior executive positions in palo alto to teach at Fast and start IT companies in lahore and islamabad; i am talking about mid-level army officers who rode their bicycles to work for thirty years and had the same pair of shoes resoled every year for ten years; it is the furniture maker, the car rental man and the travel agent who is shutting down his business in blue area and moving to toronto for ``the sake of the children``; it is the middle class shia professional who is terrified by the green turbaned naqshbandis and flees to odessa, texas..... it is us who are fleeing before jay`s prophesy comes true and they move the capital to Qartaba ....

............... the rich and the wicked who shamelessly looted the country are still there and will take the last plane out ..... you can still see them at the islamabad golf club swinging their pings in their greg norman sweaters and hats, while the begums smoke marlboros and sip on the best neembo-pani in the world - they will be the last ones to leave before the taliban turn out the lights !

Urstruly #102

Great post. Sorry, I didn`t see it earlier on. I agree with you 100%. The people who like to call themselves `liberals` in Pakistan are totally unlike the liberals of the West. The liberals of the West are the pride of Western civilisation. Pakistani `liberals` are just a bunch of thieves and degenerates who want to enjoy their ill-gotten gains unfettered by Islam or by the interests of Pakistan. That is the real root of their opposition to Islam and their appeasement of India, not an intellectual committment to secularism, democracy or progress.

Yes, they are now pouring out of Pakistan at an unbelievable rate. But this mass exodus of bloodsuckers out of Pakistan is the country`s greatest hope.

Urstruly,

Thank you for the straight answer. If you dont mind, I have a few follow up questions/comments;

{{- If the people that you have listed fit this profile then they are pseudo-liberals. I let you and them be the judge.}}

I guess we are getting into semantics here. I`m not sure WHICH posters on Chowk you refer to as ``besharam`` liberals. However, it is your perogative not to name names, so I`ll let it pass.

{{I do not agree with your assertion. I think you need your facts re-checked.}}

I`m not sure which fact you are asking me to recheck? Are you telling me Islamic countries & their populace are outraged at India about what is happening in Kashmir?. Gee they have a strange way of showing it. If they thought hindus were such brutal pigs; how come hindus are not banned in those countries?

I know several hindu classmates who are practising medicine in the Gulf.I met one of my hindu classmates who is an internist in Dubai recently. She says Indian female doctors (regardless of religion) are actively recruited by almost any Gulf country who can afford to pay them. She didnt encounter any anti-hindu sentiments or pro-Pakistani favouritism even when she worked in SArabia, last year.

{{You must keep in mind that as the Hindu extremist have brought the whole region to the brink of nuclear extinction the world has become more cautious on the issue of Kashmir.}}

I agree with you that this nuclear mischief was started by the BJP. I hate those hindu extremists & bigots just as much as I hate those so called jehadis. However, the Kashmiri insurgency started 10 years ago; long before the nuclear card was played. It started when the cold war in Afghanistan was dying down.

How come none of those Islamic countries clamped down on India before Pokharan II? I`ll answer this question & I know many Pakistanis may disagree with me. Pakistan has been behind this mischief from day 1.

When your leaders say they are just giving ``diplomatic/political/moral`` support to the poor oppressed Kashmiris--NOBODY-not even the other Islamic countries (let alone the West) are buying this. Thats why there`s not too much sympathy (except for polite murmurs) for the regular Pakistani wailing at every international forum.

Now, I`m asking you---since I`m sure you wont agree with the above statement--why do you think there isnt anymore support for Pakistan & Kashmiri muslims from your foreign muslim brothers?

{{If we live in West, it is not because of their (West) charitable nature, we contribute immensely to their economy. Islam considers people of all societies as a part of a global village. As in any village the peace can only prevail if the principles of justice are upheld. We (Muslims) cannot just shut up and let those people do injustices who are strong just because we are trying to make a living in their land.}}

I agree you have as much right to live in America & I agree muslims are honest, hard working taxpaying citizens. In that aspect, they are a tremendous asset to the West. Nobody in America has ever denied you the right of speaking out for injustice or speaking youre mind, for that matter.

However, it seems to me you love Islamic Pakistan so much & you hate most of the Western/US cultural values (I could be wrong). Your body is in the US, but your heart & mind is in Pakistan. I guess F_K & you are perfectly comfortable with this schizophrenic existence. Is it just the money & comfort that attracts you here? Or are you guys in political exile?

Hey, to each his own. This is true for many first generation Indians too. You guys are going to have some major clashes with your children if you decide to raise them in the US. The ones who shelter their kids from the vile influences of the US culture & douse them with desi culture are the ones who are having most problems with their kids. I`ll give you a 100% guarantee; your GRANDchildren will be completely American. Go ahead & call me a quack if you want. We can agree to disagree.

One last thing. Many of the questions I`ve raised can be construed as rhetorical. However, I`m not opposed to differing views. You can be as insulting as you want; no problem, we shrinks are pretty used to it. Wont affect me one bit:)

urstruly

``We (Muslims) did not grow out to be one billion, living in the far and wide corner of this planet just because of the miracle of birth alone (like Hindus). ``

....... your argument for living in the decadent west literally makes me sick to the stomach .... there is nothing more despicable than a member of the ummah who lives in the west, benefits from all that the secular and pluralistic society has to offer, crys foul and runs to the courts if someone `` discriminates`` against his beard or shalwar - all the while condemning the wicked west and conspiring to usher in the khilafa at the right time .........shame on us and may the lord help the fbi in defeating the designs of these trojan buraqs - amen!

hamidm

I think the concept of a global economy, global workforce, and globalization has not been dawned on you yet. As a matter of fact the Pakistanis that you have mentioned have been ``fleeing`` Pakistan since `60s. They have contributed more to Pakistan than any leader, quaide-Awams and quaid-ePakitans and ``people with heavy mandates``.

And a person from Ummah living in West makes you sick to the stomach. Good, then what about Ex-Commies who are now living in those dreadful lands after their Baptism to Capitalism and those who are running NGOs for their new masters-do they make you sick to the stomach too? I guess not.

``At least answer this one: why the HELL are you living in the West?``

Shankar:

I`ve not read all the interacts to speak very confidently on Urstruly`s stance, but by briefly skimming through few responses, I feel...

You have a very weak question. Or probably a concern? Just because a man or a woman is sitting in the west, that does NOT qualify them to think in a certain way[whatever it may be]. Do all Indians living in India think alike? On the same hand, do all Pakistanis in Pakistan think alike?[You can skip concentrating on the ins-and-outs of this question :-)] Do they have the same priorities? Will they EVER think alike? Will they Ever have the same priorities? I do not need a response; just wanted you to contemplate[Only if you have nothing else to do :-)]

On another note: The term ``liberal`` can be a relative term. So let`s not get carried away with the semantics here. For some, progression is liberalism; for others(the suppressed), getting out of their suppressed environment may be liberalism. The third category may consider being shutr-bae`-muhaar[without any limits and boundaries] as liberalism........
Something else to look into.

Anyway, please enjoy reading the explanation as well as definition of some interesting concepts listed below. :