Porn for Girls

Hi,

I have this feeling that you posted this poem just to enjoy the reaction of the people. And you log in everyday to read the latest, with a big smirk on your face........ But if you actually care for the interaction, I would like to contribute my two pence.

I think its a good poem. You have a nice way of writing. The simplicity of the composition vis a vis the complexity of the topic, makes an interesting picture.

It happens to be an experience we all have.... as you mentioned in your reply # 28. But why delve in something associated with our instincts, when we have matured into something much higher, and the human mind has reached its phenomenal status? We all have a digestive system, and maybe a good poem can be written about the functions of a pancreas, but should it really be written? Why not write about emotions, experience, causes, effects, conclusions and concepts?

Forgive me for saying this, but it seems that you are only focusing on experiences which have a very common and yet a very individual nature. Like getting by mosquitoes.

Regards,

Jamil

Tahmed:

[Actually this may be the 21st century by your calendar, but it is 4000 BC by the calendar inside the heads of many people which results in the notion, for example, that it is better to have male children than female: As a father, I am absolutely delighted to have daughters and to watch them grow up. And yet I am aware that in India for example they had to have some kind of laws prohibiting people from terminating pregnancies (I put it delicately) after determining the gender of the foetus in the sonogram to be female; in China, the one child policy has had one exception - if the first child is a girl, the couple can try again until they have a boy. And I am not even getting into the practice of purdah in muslim societies (I find it fascinating what the Quran has to say about this and what the common beliefs are); sex discrimination; and so forth. So, you and I are convinced that this study was unnecessary, but it`s results would be unbelievably challenging for many people to accept.]

Thanks for the examples. I AGREE with the gist of your post, but it`s not only me who is living and breathing in the 21st century. I will give you few personal examples of my elders, who are very dear to me. Some, I have not even seen, but do go to offer Fatiha whenever I am at their graves. I guess they call them, ``Ahdae` Raftaa Kae` Loag?``

a) My late nana jaan was in railways - a selfmade, very religious and well educated man, with 12 kids. My mother has (mashallah) 9 sisters and 3 brothers. Despite my nana jaan`s very strict and disciplined outlook; he had a strong emphasis on his daughters` education. According to Ammi[the 9th daughter and the 11th child]; nana jaan would personally take a lot of interest in all the kids` education, regardless of their gender. There was a big generation gap among his kids, but still he would take out time for the younger ones and give them personal attention in their prose and poetry readings in the evening. According to Ammi, they used to dread those daily sessions [after coming back from their college & university], but now when all of them look back, they have the fondest memories. My Ammi is in her early 50s and my oldest Mamoo Jaan is in his late 70s to early 80s. I gave the age group to make you realize that I am talking about people who were not born today.

b) On the other end: my late dada jaan was a very successful lawyer, a well read scholar, and a linguist - held many degrees in law and oriental languages. He had 9 kids[mashallah] - 4 daughters and 5 sons. And all my aunts are well read and fairly strong women - lived in boarding schools in those days. According to Abu, late grandpa`s favorite one was into farsi poetry and falsafa - a philosophy major[a Ravian]. Interestingly, she never got to change her last name; her hubby`s name was the same as her father`s name. How lucky!She is in her early 70s now.

Point being, that 70 - 80 years back, people in our part of the world had this sense to love, cherish and educate their daughters. And those daughters instilled that passion of education in their daughters and the chain kept on going.

The studies you are quoting, make me look into the days of Jahalut. Why should I waste my time in reading such studies? Why should not I look and find other studies that tell me how to keep the ``teh`kaa`` being a woman ? Any study by worldbank/undp/unifem focusing on that?[In a very humble tone]Please do let me know.

Huma Tun Gosh! (!(!( [My Newly discovered emoticon]

PS: On a serious note, your intentions are very noble and you have all my respects. Personally, I would not like to see the ``munhoos soorat`` of any one; who holds a retarded & backward mindset regarding women. I was amazed to watch the emphasis on women`s role in the movie, Jinnah.

Zahra #153 Glad you found my post humorous (albeit unintended). Actually this may be the 21st century by your calendar, but it is 4000 BC by the calendar inside the heads of many people which results in the notion, for example, that it is better to have male children than female: As a father, I am absolutely delighted to have daughters and to watch them grow up. And yet I am aware that in India for example they had to have some kind of laws prohibiting people from terminating pregnancies (I put it delicately) after determining the gender of the foetus in the sonogram to be female; in China, the one child policy has had one exception - if the first child is a girl, the couple can try again until they have a boy. And I am not even getting into the practice of purdah in muslim societies (I find it fascinating what the Quran has to say about this and what the common beliefs are); sex discrimination; and so forth. So, you and I are convinced that this study was unnecessary, but it`s results would be unbelievably challenging for many people to accept.

TAhmed:

Thanks for your humor-filled post. I cannot resist questioning: what planet are you from?

[krashid/zahra: So I take it you think the cause and effect works the other way (prosperity causes improvements in women`s status and not vice versa).]

I am not sure what KRashsid implied, I did NOT tread the above path at all.

[I agree with you on this...]

The agreement got wasted.

[(since they carry the burden of pregnancy) and better education for these children.]

Well, I am very grateful for this revelation. I always assumed the other way around. [Shushdur]
(?_?)

[And there are other ways as well in which improvements in women`s status in society improves the overall society as well.]

I completely agree with this thought. :-)

[So what we have is a ``virtuous circle`` where cause and effect works both ways to lift society from it`s animal-like past to a higher level of morality and well-being in the future.]

Ok, I will try to be a little kind here. I questioned the gist of your previous post. I repeat: Do you need a study, to tell you something that should be very obvious in this day and age? Rather than realizing that, you are cross-examining the rationale behind it. And this is 2001? Isn`t it? Well, that`s pretty bad. Before I jump to any conclusions, I better know: what was the big *surprise * in that study for you?

Now, if you were reiterating the *facts * to fellow men on board; please excuse my intrusion! You were certainly involved in a Karae`Khair and I interrupted the discourse. My apologies.

Regards.

krashid/zahra: So I take it you think the cause and effect works the other way (prosperity causes improvements in women`s status and not vice versa). I agree with you on this, but dont think that this precludes the direction of cause and effect emphasized in the study: improved women`s status causes prosperity. One way it works is as follows: improved women`s status leads to fewer children (since they carry the burden of pregnancy) and better education for these children. And that leads to prosperity. And there are other ways as well in which improvements in women`s status in society improves the overall society as well. So what we have is a ``virtuous circle`` where cause and effect works both ways to lift society from it`s animal-like past to a higher level of morality and well-being in the future.

Jawahara #

In continuation of my previous response.

As you are saying that I asked your credentials and that is why you are asking mine.

I went through all my post. Can you please tell me where I have committed that sin.

Jawahara#147

The problem is not denying the rights. But choice of article by Chowk staff.

I am pretty sure many articles submitted on Chowk go to dust bin.

Particularly, in succession. The article we are discussing, Choo Moo Article, spanish poem etc in succession, led me to write to be at least prudent in selection.

May be Chowk staff can add another category for these kind of patronizing.

Called Patronizing Lane. Or President`s house.

Do you believe in reverse discrimination?

Studebaker #148

Thank you for the reply. Please give me some time to understand and respond to you.

It will serve no purpose if I wrote down all that immediately springs to mind. The challenges we have in India are huge. These challenges can only be met if Indian Hindus and Indian Muslims and all other kinds of Indians make an effort to understand one another.

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krashid #145

I questioned your credentials since you questioned mine and the chowk editors`. Tit for tat. I know that literature and what qualifies as good and bad is not bound by stringent definitions. I maintain, however, that writing should not be censored just because certain people find the *subject matter * itself objectionable. It is the treatment, the style, the way you create something from that subject matter that differentiates the good from the indifferent.

TAhmed #142

I think it should be read in reverse.

Countries with economic growth have more human rights.

Rather than countries with more human rights have more economic growth.

Otherwise I will hang Karl Marx upside down to see in the view it is stated.

Jawahar #144

Some good literature for your thoughts.

When I saw those black eyes.

The hairs flowing in air.

And a heavenly beauty.

My neighbour, I called you.

You did not listen at that time.

And now I am living happily.

As much as I can.

Smiling to myself sometimes.

On childishness to be carried away. By the flowing hairs.

Black eyes and heavenly beauty.

So how would you rate it.

I will rate it with the same category which you are defending so ardently (or worse)

Is it necessary to be credentialed to judge Literature for its worth.

krashid # 138

I am not an editor on chowk. Where did you get that idea? And I don`t live in Connecticut any more. More than that, I have never claimed to be more than a word churner, so if that was meant to be an insult, it really wasn`t. Sorry!



Perhaps your sample story suffered from your retelling here and was actually a great piece of literature. I will concede that, since I have not read it.

Now I am an avowed word churner, but what exactly are your credentials to being the judge and artbiter of good literature?

Also, I did not understand this sentence. I am sure you won`t mind explaining it to this less than literate person:

``I am pretty sure you will find a story dumb where the contradiction in society and a person`s thinking regarding himself and others has different criteria.``

Also, just because that story was good literature does not mean that this poem was not. In fact, if the rest of world literature began to ape just one great story, the copycats would not qualify as good literature.

All good literature (I am sure I don`t have to tell you that) is not the same. Each person`s muse moves them in different ways and it is how they take that creative spark and translate it into words, the style, the skill; that differentiates a good writer from a not so great one.

Now, this poem was not the best I have read, not even close. But it was refreshing, funny, sad and interesting at the same time. Regardless, not publishing a poem such as this, with definite promise, just because you (or others) find the subject matter offensive is my pet peeve and smacks of censorship.

TAhmed:

``Countries that promote women`s rights and increase their access to resources and schooling have lower poverty rates, faster economic growth and less corruption than countries that do not, says a recently published World Bank report.`` (This is based on a carefully designed study, incidentally, and is not subjective opinion.)


Do * *we * * need any report or study to tell us something that is very obvious?

Why?

Note: This * *we * * has been left ambiguous intentionally.

What about the following? Is that true?

``Countries that promote men`s rights and decrease their access to resources and schooling have higher poverty rates, slower economic growth and higher corruption than countries that do not.``
[This was a spontaneous reaction than any famous discovery.]





Scout:

There was no sophistication in those verses. I think you wanted to say, ``pertinent - husbae` haal.`` :X)

On another note: I *think * the following will be more poignant than the rest. I hope you value my invaluable suggestions :-)

I dont know if the following news item is relevant to this discussion, but what the heck: ``Countries that promote women`s rights and increase their access to resources and schooling have lower poverty rates, faster economic growth and less corruption than countries that do not, says a recently published World Bank report.`` (This is based on a carefully designed study, incidentally, and is not subjective opinion.)

Re: scout

Truce it is. Ylh and I called a truce, so why not you and I too...

Zahra, itni sophisticated shairi...

:)

# 115 Studebaker

I am grateful you took the time to reply to me in a thoughtful manner.

I won`t bore you with long statements. Let me only build on what you wrote.

Hindus and Muslims (and others as well) should try to understand each other`s fears, hopes, and memories. I see you are afraid that Hindus are trying to turn the clock back to some earlier period. You are determined to hold on to things you feel you have gained.

Hindus and Muslims should both arrive at some sort of solution in which both are able to get a few things they value and give a few things to the other in the spirit of brotherhood. For this to happen, we need the WILLING cooperation of everyone. It can not be all one sided, either all Hindu or all Muslim.

Let me provoke you for a moment. I hope you will not be angry. You are afraid of losing things you gained. Should Hindus not get a few of the things they have lost for a thousand years?

If we think of the emotional needs of both Hindus and Muslims, we can find a way to forge a great future together.

PS: Earlier, I had asked a question in all seriousness. You mentioned that all Buddhist viharas and stupas were forcibly converted by Hindus into temples during a particular period. Is there any reliable source of information on that? I have always believed that Hinduism has not, broadly, been aflicted by the curse that many other religions have suffered - large-scale and systematic destruction of other people`s religious places as a matter of religiously prescribed or state policy. At worst, there might have been an odd king or two in some places.

I would really want to know if I am wrong.

Jawahara #119

Looks like you are an editor on chowk. Living in Connecticut.

That can make anyone a word churner and not a literate.

Behind good literature is not only a lot of experience, but lot of observation and only the final part is how to present it.

I am pretty sure you will find a story dumb where the contradiction in society and a person`s thinking regarding himself and others has different criteria. (Any way that dumb writer of short stories got acolade for his book from Farman Fatehpuri and others if you know who they are).

Particularly it cannot compare with a talented story where a girl while watching porn is putting a finger in her crotch and at the very movement someone knocks at the door. What a great story.

I am sorry, I am yet unaware of good literature and had wasted most of my life with unnecessary words.

Post 135:

!!!Ahem...Ahem...Ahem!!!

Post 135:

!!!Ahem...Ahem...Ahem!!!

Rsaxena,

I know, deep down, you`re a good person. Behind the heavy armor of harsh words, there lies a beautiful heart. Let the beauty of your heart shine through the armor.

Lay down your weapons and embrace love for all people, of every race, of every religion, and sexual orientation.

Be a warrior of love instead of a warrior of hate.

I will (sincerely) pray to God for your well being and future happiness.

Where is the person I once happily chatted with about NY Bridges and Ferragamo shoes?

peace

scout

haniya #128,

I`m sorry dear.

Re: shrink

Wow. I am honored that you`ve devoted 5 paragraphs to me. I must push your buttons very well.

``It burns him that I get along well with nonbigots on Chowk``

Hehe. It ``burns`` me? You think I give a hoot if you wanna stick your tongue where the sun don`t shine?

I`ve been reading articles and replies on chowk for a long time now. But this kind of petty mid-slinging at each other`s religions really goes beyond any limit. I mean, what`re you people achieving by posting these stupid(I can think of no other word to describe these remarks) replies, aside from a smug grin on how abosolutely celever you`ve been. I mean, come off it! Camels in Mecca and a stinking Indian on a subway in NYC?

As for the Taliban, I beg of everyone to please STOP equating them with the world of Islam in general. These people are, well, different. Most, if not all have lived since childhood in Madrassay, brought up by illiterate mullahs. What is one to expect?

And if anyone expects them to see reason in not destroying the Buddha statues, forget it. They just think like the rest of us. And I`m very serious.

As for the destruction of art, be it of religious, historical, sentimental, any sort of significance, destorying art is a heinous crime. Afghanistan was once the centre of art, literature, and music for Central and even South Asia. The city of Herat was known for it`s culture and beauty. That was all razed thanks to the combined powers of the ex-Soviet Union, the grand old United States d`Amerique and our very own Pakistan. Why does war justify this kind of destruction?

Umm...I see I have strayed. Beyond repair. I`ll leave it at this. Please repects all religion, all art, and all knowledge.

Thanks for listening to me rant. :)

cheers

haniya

The only thought that struck me when I read this little piece wasm ``Oh, I didn`t get that..`

Nit then I thought it might be interesting to read the replies. I certainly wasn`t ready for all taht I read there.

I find it exceedingly sad how frightened people, and Pakistanis in particular are frightened of losing their ``identities``, in anyway whatsoever. Chill out people. It`s literature. It might not be to your liking, or you might not have any experience with this kind of work. But the writer has a license for free art.

And if the chowk editors let it in, who`s anyone to complain?

Open up those minds and let some sun in! Things are getting mouldy in there.

cheers

Haniya

Asim #114:

A (brahmin) acquaintance from UP was there recently due to a death in the family, he was talking about the ghats and the water in the hills.

``at places i.e precisely the volume occupied by a lepton(a subatomic particle, whose existnce is very much under debate)``

Have you seen the river?

On second thoughts, dont bother to answer, maybe I just wrote that to indirectly say that you dont have such a river in Pakistan, I am sure Jagdeep would agree.

scout,

OK, its a deal:)

Just remember; the jerk thrives on baiting/provoking people to bring out the worst in them. He LOVES it when Chowkies take his insults personally.

Why do you think we LOVE our hatred for each other?:) It just grinds him that I laugh at his insults. It burns him that I get along well with nonbigots on Chowk. His accusation that I beg people to be my friend is a beauty!

If you really want to hurt Saxena, praise the living daylights out of him! (How anyone could do that, I havent a clue!). Thats his vulnerable psychological button. He goes into a corner & starts sulking with his Shiv Sena books. Of course, he will superciliously laugh at that & deny it to the hilt!

Like I said, I`ve put a hex on him. His parents are going to find him a nice hindu girl, who has your personality. He will wholeheartedly agree with the match. Its no secret that he`s subconciously attracted to your personality (watch him erupt at that statement:))!.

Haha--now thats going to be a suhag raat to remember!! He`ll go through married life with castration anxiety plastered all over his mug!

Re: shrink

Ohhhh, shankaran the pervert is here to defend ``cute jalapeno.`` I am scared now...I better back-off before he uses his immense wit to get me.

Does anyone know of any good studies evaluating the impact of widespread cousin marriages in Pakistan? What are the psychological impacts of this form of inbreeding?

jus` wonderin`....

Do Pakistani or Pakistani-American doctors work like four-hour shifts a day in New England? :-)

shankar bhai #123,

ok, i`ll refrain from now on, but no guarantees.

if he provokes me too much, he`s gonna get it.

but i`ll try for you.

scout,

Why are you wasting so much time sparring with that jerk? Watch out, he`s rubbing off on you! Saxena has one & only one rule on Chowk--``insult everybody!!`` Nothing is sacred or out of bounds for him. Have you read a single constructive post by him? He`s running out of insults--same crap over & over again. Thats the only thing that turns him on. Gets boring after a while...

Crapsena,

Pretzels not selling too well on Wall St these days, eh? For the sake of our eternal friendship; in your inevitable insulting reply, come up with something new--for a change. Not the same ``corny, middle aged quack`` etc etc. Booorrring..broken record..flip the chapatti over..

Hmm.. wonder if you used anything besides your imagination to reach the point of ``when I almost merge with the two onscreen``, would be interesting to know!

rsuxena #118,

Had hai unoriginality ki!

stop copying me. can`t you think of something else.

By the way, is it true that some Brahmins sprinkle cow urine and dung around their home for pious reasons?

yuckkkkkkkkk

Re: baklava

I can`t make sense of any of your drivel. Please write more clearly.

Studebaker,

obviously we are on different wavelengths here since I live on planet earth. I did not in my posts say that the Buddha statues were being destroyed in retaliation for Babri masjid. These are, however, parallel incidents in the same part of the world, which is why they are being talked about together.

The rest of your post I need a universal translator from Star Trek to decipher and I don`t have one, so I am not going to respond to that part.

krashid

Hmmmm, just as I thought. True literature is something that does not make you think, re-examine yourself, your world, the way you view the world and its denizens? That`s what not testing the sensibilities of the reader.

BTW, the story you related was uhh, how shall I put it? Dumb!

When I lived in small town Connecticut I used to visit this little, used book store. Once while there I came across a section called Inspirational Romance. I asked the owner whom I was friends with what that was. Christian romance, she said, or as she called it, hand holding romance. Man and woman meet, have a christian relationship, just hold hands, wait for marriage to have sex, gel together in every way. Aaah! now I know that I was in the presence of great literature. Excuse me, I need to go and order some of those books. Maybe I`ll post sections of one of those on here, so we can all be lulled into a boring sleep and won`t have the will nor the gumption to whack off.

Re: spout

I agree with your disdain for stinky subway riders. Just the other day, this bearded fellow and his burka clad wife were stinking up the Number 6 with serious BO. The sweat was trapped in his beard and her burkha...the skin couldn`t breathe. Furthermore, I was pretty sure they had sheep meat on them after a sacrifice.

Studebaker: tsk! tsk! itna gussa? perhaps u shud get a punching bag for yourself...all that negative energy...calling mr shankar!

Jawahara #104

I don`t think there is a particular definition of good literature.

But Choo, Moo Niaistan BS is at most a jugglery.

A good literature can be as varied as Ibn-e-Safi with hyper stories with depiction of beatiful characters and emotions or as simple as Pushkin or as deep as Tolsty or as idealist as Kahlil Jibran or as humorous as Yusufi.

On the other hand market is also full of literature which are sold underground for the appetite of people. And are valued for the same purpose. Does it make them realism and imagination (and they don`t lack in those aspects) or simply B.S.

Don`t test the sensibilities of people on this forum. People watch CNN propaganda everyday because there is no other choice. It does not necessarily make the propaganda authentic.

Recall few days back strike against Iraq in the same tone as 1990 but which lasted only one day.

You can define good literature by reading good literature.

A simple moving story by unknown writer can be a masterpiece. I give you example of a short story by Khalil-ulllah Shibli.

(Only meaning remains with me and not story

A man reading the newspaper cursed. The servant asked what happened. He said these f--ing students are demonstrating for rise in the price of bus travel ticket.

After one minute there is another curse. The servant asked if the students did something else wrong.

Master replied no S.O.B. Governemnt have raised the price of Air travel ticket.

Compare this to the story of masturbation after watching channel 40 and someone knocking at the door.

As I said, don`t test the sensibilities of reader.

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Re :``They say the water still is crystal clear at places (where we dont frequent with our sins).``

at places i.e precisely the volume occupied by a lepton(a subatomic particle, whose existnce is very much under debate)

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scout #105:

``Regarding crowded nyc subways, standing next to an Indian is sheer torture, with the smell of heeng/haldi/pakoras emanating in close quarters.``

You are right when you are right - I agree. Here`s to the day when we are more sensitive to the others...(NOT to the hyper-sensitive & the hallucinating though!)

#86:

``Now I have to jump in the river Ganges to absolve myself of my sins and perhaps catch a few diseases to help repent.``

Chuckle! Actually we undertook a project to clean up the Ganga with outside help at one point, wonder what happened to that. They say the water still is crystal clear at places (where we dont frequent with our sins).

RSaxena #107

Arre bhai, aise nahi kahate. Such tragic accidents can occur anywhere. I know you enjoy throwing volleys (I do too but you do a far better job) but you surely didn`t mean to draw any satisfaction from this most unfortunate accident. People who died were probably just like you and me, and had nothing to do with the Jihadis and their trainers we rightly detest.

Eklavya #108,

Hey now, don`t worry. Rsuxena has his doors open to you with those ``goodies`` galore. :)

By the way, these derogatory remarks are reserved for suxena, not polite Indian interactors like you, shankar bhai, and others.

Rsuxena #107,

I hope those cut`n`paste cyber scissors are child proof. I wouldn`t want you to hurt yourself little kiddo.

scout,

Please don`t run down heeng/haldi/pakoras. It`s cruel of you to remind a hungry desi of those heavenly things.

regards

The bend-over mela in mecca turns violent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1203000/1203108.stm

``Thirty-five Muslim pilgrims have been killed in a stampede as the annual Muslim pilgrimage, the Hajj, reached its climax.

They died during the Stoning of Satan ritual on Monday``

``In 1998, at least 118 people died and more than 180 were injured in a stampede during the third and last day of the stoning ceremony.``

`` Like Muslims around the world, the pilgrims also slaughter sheep, goats, camels and cattle ``

ok i truly rest my case `stud(?)baker`...the filth just flows endlessly...a regular gutter i tell u!! and u know what? u deserved to be generalized with the rest of those crass and undeniably vulgar people that i named previously!! :)

rsuxena #102, ``Yeah but playing with their urine in mecca is not.``

What? I`m sorry, but even some jokes/insults make sense, but this one doesn`t.

Try again buddy boy, you`re running out of ammo.

``by the way, do you too have to line-up 5 times a day with someone`s behind in your face? how does that work if you`re in a crowded nyc subway?``

Heard this one before too. What`s happening to you? Too much beer and Alice on the weekend again I presume.

Regarding crowded nyc subways, standing next to an Indian is sheer torture, with the smell of heeng/haldi/pakoras emanating in close quarters.

phew!

You guys are walking stink bombs.

krashid, hmmm, so please tell us what you define as good literature? Because apparently, we are in disagreement over what that elusive creature called good writing is.

Studebaker, in answer to your question, when the Babri Masjid was destroyed I was in India for a visit and was horrified, angered, frustrated, scared and saddened by the events.

As to whether the Babri masjid, (a mosque that was no longer in use and was used by the rabid Hindutva forces as a stick to beat muslims with), was a priceless relic I personally disagree. I have seen many more gorgeous, beautiful and significant structures, even mosques in India than that. But as you said that is a matter of personal preferences. It was, however, a historical building that needed to be preserved. I agree with you on that.

However, just because someone else destroyed a historical mosque in India does not make it okay for others to destroy millenia old art in another country. Where is the logic in that? An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, does it not?

Besides the buddhists have never anything bad to anyone and have always been screwed over, so I have a soft spot for them perhaps.

I think as a human community we are diminished by the destruction of creativity, history and art wherever that is, in India, Afghanistan or Timbucktoo.

It`s not an either or situation. I mourn the destruction of both, not because I think either of them were particularly beautiful or artistic even. But because incidents such as these displays the barbarity of human beings and makes any hope I might have, a fruitless dream.

And in some ways destruction of history and art is symbolic for the atrocities perpetrated on real, living, human beings. And those are more important than the buildings, I never forget that. If the Taliban had destroyed the statues but had treated their own people well I would not be so angry. But along with destroying others` art and history and religion, they are also killing their own and stifling all those who may disagree.

Just because I don`t think something is art does *not * give me the right to destroy it. That`s my point. I choose to look past many things in the world that I don`t like or agree with. But I also don`t take weapons and destroy them. What the hell is wrong with just agreeing to disagree for god`s sake?

Just because you or I are not agreeing on something here, does not mean that we will come gunning for one another does it? We`ll just go on and say, this one time, Studebaker and Jawahara disagreed vehemently. Perhaps, next time it will be different.

I am sorry for rambling, people. Just had to get all these different, rambling thoughts out of my head.

Re: Spout

``Camels are beautiful animals by the way. ``

Yeah but playing with their urine in mecca is not.

by the way, do you too have to line-up 5 times a day with someone`s behind in your face? how does that work if you`re in a crowded nyc subway?

studebaker #99

Bhai jaan. What is this?!

From another board, I learnt that like many others here, you fully support Afghanistani Muslims`s actions destroying Buddhist statues. Now, it seems you are still sore about Hindu fanatics` criminal destruction of a priceless (sorry bhai jaan, to me every ancient relic is priceless) mosque?

What is it that you believe in? Do you have the courage to clearly state your core beliefs?

studebaker #99

Bhai jaan. What is this?!

From another board, I learnt that like many others here, you fully support Afghanistani Muslims`s actions destroying Buddhist statues. Now, it seems you are still sore about Hindu fanatics` criminal destruction of a priceless (sorry bhai jaan, to me every ancient relic is priceless) mosque?

What is it that you believe in? Do you have the courage to clearly state your

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Jawahara #89

What is so difficult to understand.

The choice of article is done by Chowk Staff.

If we are doomed to read third class acts by fourth class writers due to this who should we fault.

I agree that sometimes by mistake they publish some good literature, but that is rarity.

Particularly two or three pieces in succession make it more urgent to implore the chowk staff.

As far as self proclaimed Messiah analogy.

Our country is ruled by Military once every decade by self proclaimed Messiah without our participation or sentiments. Who cares.

Scout #95

LOL. Good one.

Saxena Sahib, Maanana padega ki she is good :)

Godot and Zahra,

Thanks :)

Rsuxena #92, ``Go to mecca and bury your head in the sand and bathe with a camel.``

That`s much much better than bathing in millions of people`s germs, urine, and God knows what...

Camels are beautiful animals by the way.

Sadna,

Thanks.

Re: scout, #86

Scout, you have a great sense of humor. I like your style! Sometimes you say it so well!

Your post #87: Agree with you 100%.

Latif Chappu, #75

Dude, I give you credit for putting it together. It takes imagination (no pun intended). Loved the second take as well!

Re: sharayar, #77

``she stands on a slippery field``

It is not a ``she`` who stands on a slippery field, it`s a ``he.`` [I`ll let you figure that one out.]

Re: Mahim Maher

Mahim, I want you to know that none of my posts here is directed towards you. I`m only responding to some of the posts in this thread. I hope you don`t take me the wrong way.

To me, you are very bright and intelligent. You know so many languages and can express your thoughts in them so well. Not everyone can do that. Women like you make me proud of Pakistan. Be what you are and keep writing for Chowk. You`ll have many fans. One thing I learned long time ago is that you cannot please everyone. The best way to be is be yourself.

Re: scout

``Now I have to jump in the river Ganges...``

No, no. You should do no such kafir things. Go to mecca and bury your head in the sand and bathe with a camel.

Scout: Post # 86

:-)

When mindless bigots jump upon you, you can not be far off the mark.

Stay your course, Mahim. Write what you like. You make a contribution simply by being creative, by being open-minded.

You can not `explain` anything to closed minds. Don`t try to.

Ignore them.

krashid

I fail to get your point. Most written material, including the others who wrote texts on sexuality and Islam go through some kind of editorial process, except the Quran I suppose.

So did Mahim`s poet. Are you saying chowk editors need to act as censors of subject matter?

Just because material goes through an editorial process does not make it not a publicly consumed piece. Most things we read, including newspapers and magazine articles, all publicly consumed material, have all gone through a selection and an editorial process.

If your five year old has talent, s/he should defintely be published.

I trust the chowk staff`s literary taste and views more than that of the mullah brigage which is destroying priceless historical artifacts even as we speak, all in the name of what people can be *exposed * to.

I also don`t understand your self proclaimed Messiah comment/question.

Please elaborate on your points because I am still at sea and cannot see what you are talking about.

It seems to me that we have turned into a nation of critics. All we do is criticize and point fingers at others. Mahim wrote a poem that seems to have raised quite a few eyebrows simply because it talks about a rather taboo subject. Granted that her style was nothing to write home about but then perhaps thats the way she interprets things. Its shocking the way `we liberal desis` treat new writers on chowk. When you don`t like something, criticize all you want but criticism does not necessarily have to be so harsh. Sheheryar, studebaker, Aristotle and the likes...if you all think you can write better than this, then please by all means go ahead coz I would certainly like to see you all do something `creative` (does the word ring a bell?) apart from the usual name-calling and filth that you all seem to be putting up on these message boards. Perhaps you all should give it a rest cuz its getting really really FAST!!!

For all you male idiots bugging Mahim for writing this harmless poem:

I`m sure your wives and girlfriends are doing the same thing, so go ``bang their doors down.``

Mahim,

Please ignore these ``righteous`` morons. Had a guy written this poem, they`d be agreeing, chuckling, and sharing stories etc.

R-sux-haina? #73 ``Are you allowed to be reading material of adult nature such as that on this board? Isn`t it against your ``morals?``

Oh no! You should have stopped me or warned me.

You see, I didn`t have glasses on when I clicked on the title, I thought it read ``Corn for Girls,`` and I love Corn, so I thought why not?

Now I have to jump in the river Ganges to absolve myself of my sins and perhaps catch a few diseases to help repent.

PM #84
This maynot be what you are looking for, but some organisations listed here in NY/NJ Area:
www.maitri.org/resources/index.html
www.manavi.org

Mahem,

It is indeed a daring poem. There are a lot of taboos in our society, people don`t wanna talk about them, yet in their heart every one knows how pervasive these are. I think its lack of tolerance and religious hegemony that has turned our society so hypocrite. Its sad that instead of talking about the subject, people have started personal attacks on you, many of them may even masturbate too!

But I still think you should have some sort of priorities. Sex is not the biggest issue for our society, what about socio-economic injustice, suffering of the poor, poverty and injustice. I guess u have heard this debate of ``art for society`` or ``art for art`s sake``. When Manto wrote ``Thanda Gosht`` he was prosecuted for using obscene language, and surprisingly Faiz criticized him too, on the grounds that there are more pressing issues to deal with in literature than liberating sex in society. True. There should be freedom of expression, but responsibility for our society too

Not that this is related, but...

There is an 18-yo recent immgrant to the US who is going through some serious identity crises,and (I think) is need of some cultural lifelines and emotional support as she deals with some scary issues. She is from the Jackson Heights area. If anyone knows where she could find such help, pleae email me postmatser@yahoo.com.

Thanks,

P.M

hamidm sahib,

I`ve been meaning to add my voice to those that have praised your superlative satire... Now I must commend you on that reproduction of Henry Miller as well.

You enliven and enrich the interacts as few others can. For which I guess we are indebted to Asif and Urstruly, amongst others :)

do keep posting!

P.

Jawahara #66

Everybody has a right to write whatever he/she can.

But everything is not published.

You probably will be aware by now that selection of article is done by Chowk Staff and not the writer.

It is useless to blame Mahim. What about my five year old writing for PUBLIC Consumption.

It only denotes the standard and taste of Chowk staff regarding literature.

Have you ever heard of self proclaimed Messiah.

......... in the words of the great pornographer :

``We are all guilty of crime the great crime of not living life to the full.

But we are all potentially free.

We can stop thinking of what we have failed to do and do whatever lies within our power.

What those powers that are in us may be no one has truly dared to imagine.

That they are infinite we will realize the day we admit to ourselves that imagination is everything.

Imagination is the voice of daring.``

- Henry Miller

LETTER TO MYSELF

Yaar temporal:

Are you not amazed at the irony?

The other day on another board you wrote,``....and no mention of sampada, mausala, gramye, ratiposha, lataveshta, shankha or splitting bamboo....`` and there was nary a murmur or even a solitary whimper by the usual righteouos brigade!

And here at this solitary display of safe sex in these dire times all hell is let loose on the messenger.

(Zair-e-dafa teen so dou, taazirat-e-Hind/Pak mujrima ko phaansi ki saza di jati hay. Allah Allah khair sallah!)

What a display of displaced Victorian disprudence!

What irony, you ask?

With sex, we practice but tolerate little writing about it.

With religion, we practice little but write in abundance!

yours etc.,

the other temporal

Re: Godot

No dude, I didnt come up with those myself. Most of them are already in common circulation.

Do a search in google for `Masturbation Terms` and you`ll get to see many more!

Now if you`ll excuse me I have to indulge in a little bit of:

BaayeN Haath Ka Khel

Apna Haath Jagannath

Pocket Table Tennis

Khoodkhooshi

MooThia Maaring

Hastha Maithoon

Naag Pooja

IksaTh BaaNsaTh (61,62)

Pandavas V. Shakuni

Ling Vadh

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and realizng that she stands on a slippery field,mahim takes a tangent and says it was a humorous poem.

hahahahahaa:)

what a loser:)

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To Mahim and to old Chowkies.(A politically incorrect post)

There was a time when chowk.COM had yet to Make It. That was the time when people like sifwan bina saima shandana arif etc etc. were on the mainstay. The discussions here were normally revolved around the writer`s Work rather than his/her own person. Labelling each other was simply unheard of.(although i know its a Desi dilemma specially at the West-End of the Des)

But then times have changed, so Mahim brace yourself for more religious/nationalistic(patriotic?) trash on these Boards.

bugger off!

Re: Spout

Are you allowed to be reading material of adult nature such as that on this board? Isn`t it against your ``morals?``

Re: shrink

Another pot of the obvious from you. Do you have an original bone in your body?

Re : Mahim

One has to become slightly thick-skinned to deflect off the mostly adhominem attacks over here at Chowk. Its very easy to drag the personality of the writer, for many Pakistanis, as opposed to keping their evaluation focussed solely on their writings.

You dont have to get all worked up, about the ridiculous, abusive namecalling; or to get worked up enough that you respond in kind by generalising.

Taboos in our society are bigger than the size of some cathedrals. Our egos being even bigger. Its difficult for some of us(not mysefl personally, mind you :)) to see a western educated young woman writing about masturbation. It lends credence to their myopic views about the stereotypcial western woman, who is willing to get it ``on`` with any Tom, Dick and Harry;, a view built up by repeated exposure to the very blue porn movies which you wrote about. Ironic that such movies ar watched by the ``ye old faithful``, natuarlly in isolation from the females of the clan;

Hypocrisy knows no bounds! Yet, I was not moved by the poem, its aafter all a personal opinion. I am not a literay critic by any stretch of the imagination, even after having read the Times literary supplemnt for a long time. One does not become a pilot just by reading the flying manuals. You see :) But i know what appeals to me and what does not. So dont take it seriously. Opinions will vary. Youc ant please people all the time, even if you were an ``angel``; Not that i am doubting for a moment, that you are not :).

Keep writing, but be selctive in what you print here. As it is, this level of interaction is pretty cutting age for us token ``liberal`` Pakistanis.

Sincerely,

Asim

Shankar

I thought the world is now even beyond Jung(s). Gosh! I hope you dont prescribe beating and hanging upside down to your patients as a treatment.

Mahim:

Or is mayhem? Just thought should tell you that was a great write up on `Brackish Gate`. Would have sent the kudos letter there but have tried in the past and found their system is partial to psedonymns. And, ofcourse, I don`t have a life outside.....:)

lve,

t

Mahim Reply #: 65

My ``nasty`` reaction was to your post # 27 and not to the poem itself. Please re-read your posting and you might realize why.

hi mahim! I agree with you that people are a bit uptight on Chowk about matters sexual! It is a common Pakistani failing...

Wanking is one of the most pleasurable activities!

There are those who admit to it and then there are liars (amongst normal humans); it seems our people have a problem with it!

And is that anecdote about the coke bottles really true?

take care

keep on writing on Chowk!

I had sent an errata posting about the name mix up,right after my other response. It didn`t make it on here yet.

My point still stands. People write books for public consumption. This web site is for public consumption. Why is writing about sex in one medium, okay, but not the other?

I never said you were a mawlana but since you saw fit to ask Mahim not to write about such things on a public forum, I believe I have a right to ask for clarification. Right?

So, please tell me.

THE POEM WAS NOT ABOUT ME!!

This poem was meant to make people laugh. It is about a girl watching scrambled porn, which is rather pathetic because she doesn`t pay for it. Then someone, her lover perhaps, arrives at the doorway and disturbs her. Its that simple.

However, the enjambment or the line breaks are supposed to create a sense of suspense and surprise at each turn, which is one of the pleasures of free verse I tried here.

Wearing your heart on your sleeve is not a crime. And when I write back I do not snap at my readers. What about the readers who have called me Mahim Wanker Maher? People get really nasty on chowk which I am learning to get used to.

You don`t like the poem, that`s fine. It won`t appeal to everyone. It was not meant to be a serious poem.

You don`t think its literary. I never claimed it was The Inferno.

You don`t think it`s art. That`s a fine opinion.

Just laugh when you read it. That was what I did when I wrote it.

Mahim.

you can contact me...any time.. for your needs ..

reply.. fabs@zeenext.com

fabs

Even Freud`s greatest critics (in his field; ie--not laypeople who havent read him & call him a pervert) agree with his basic theory of human sexuality. His genious lay in the fact that he was the first person who theorised how the human sexual instinct matures from infancy to puberty.

God has given every NORMAL human a sexual instinct. That instinct is as normal & essential as eating, drinking & defecating. The survival of a species is dependant on it. Prudes generally get offended by Freud because he says it so matter of factly. To make matters worse, when Freud first proposed his theories to the scientific world, it was during the Victorian era--when Britain (& Europe as a whole) was extremely prudish & considered it very bad manners to talk about such things in ``civilised`` society. You can imagine how society reacted to him. Even his mentors, who had previously recognised his genious, denounced him publicly. Despite that, his basic theory (albeit with numerous revisions) is universally accepted by analysts.

Human sexual instinct is present right from birth. From birth to puberty, it goes through several stages of maturation. When an infant puts a rattle in its mouth, its expressing its sexual instinct. At that stage in life, the mouth is the ``erotogenous`` zone. These erotogenous zones the change as the human being matures from an infant to adulthood. Thats why you have the oral, anal, phallic ,latency & finally the genital phase of normal adult sexuality. I dont want to go into details because it would take hours.

When a person says he/she has NEVER masterbated, its as ridiculous as saying he/she has never defecated! Mind you, that person is NOT lying. He/she is not conciously aware of it. We humans have an inbuilt ``censor`` mechanism called ``repression`` that automatically ``banishes`` thoughts that are offensive to our sensibilities or our moral percepts. The more prudish a person is, the stronger the repression. Hence, the more neurotic he/she becomes. We hardly ever see any typical cases of ``hysteria`` these days, in the US. In societies where sex is not talked about openly, ``hysteria`` cases (as described by Frued in his case presentations) are still seen frequently.

Saxena,

Satisfied! I could go on & on. But I took your advice & made some friends & am going skiing this weekend. So I`m going to miss your insults. Sigh,too bad,I enjoy them.

To discuss matters does not mean you have to discuss them on a public forum.

It was not Rumi but Imam Suyuti who i said wrote the islamic love making texts.

Please do not twist my words.

and i am not a mawlana but a sinful, weak, muslim in need of the duas of the righteous.

There is no ``sharm`` in shar`iaH matters..but you have to talk about it with the right people.

Alhaj Asif Naqshbandi porno waley:

Kindly provide us some guidance in the light of Quran and Sunnah. What should one do if ones partner(lets limit this to wife/husband for now) doesn`t satisfy ones sexual urges? Did any of the six Muslim Kama Sutras mention any remedies short of ice and vaseline?

respectfully

-sac

Mahim: Listen to the Maulana. No more poetry for you till a bearded pabind-i-saum-o-salat significant other arrives in your hedonistic life!!

Asif Naqshbandi #56,

Toba astagfarullah!

In your shariah/hadith-loving/etc etc fundamental Islam, it`s haram to talk about such things with members of the opposite sex who aren`t married to you.

Please refrain from such ``shaitaani`` postings.

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Asif #56

You said that Islam encouraged frank discussion of sexuality and that Rumi had written eight books on the topic. Then you said that it is unbecoming to talk of such matters publicly, as a Muslim. Sounds contradictory to me. If the religion is open about it as are other religious people, why should only Mahim not be open about masturbation???

Re: Latif Chappu, #36

Where did you get this? If you wrote it, you are a genius (seriously.) I liked it so much that I copied it and e-mailed it to few people. It is not only humorous but is stunning in its straightforwardness, unlike that obscure ``Porn for Girls`` that beats around the bush (excuse the pun) and doesn`t get anywhere.

Hi Mahim!...I am not a big fan of poetry in free verse (whether in Urdu or English or Farsi or any other language) preferring rhyming prose but i do not see what the hullaballoo is all about just because your subject was about an activity which many in our community indulge in but do not like to talk about it; and though it is naive of me, i never thought that muslim girls from pakistan would wank off...)

Personally, I think that it is not vey becoming to discuss such private matters in public but what you do in the privacy of your own bedroom is your own business...;-) As for those people who are saying/himting that you are not a Muslim becoz you admit to masturbating (or certainly writing about it)...come on! Traditional Islam, unlike modern paki society, has discussed all matters sexual openly and frankly as being a complete code of life it legislates on all things and sex is a major human activity. The blessed ulama have also discussed this matter and the general ruling is that though it is generally not encouraged, and considered haram, it is considered better than doing zina (but inferior to controlling ones appetite by fasting) and the Hanafis have said that in some circumstances, if one is weak, it might even be necessary (if for example you have a lot of sexual energy and no halal means of dissipating it --i.e. a husband) or if your hisband/wife is far away from you and you feel the need for sex then it is better for you to wank than to commit adultery. And Allah knows best.

Yraditional Islam is v. candid about female sexuality (just read the hadith!) and some of the greatest ulama have written treatises on how to enhance ones love-making and the various positions, techniques, etc.

The great Jalal uddin Suyuti rahmatullah alayhi wrote EIGHT separate books on this topic!

The great Proof of Islam Imam Ghazzali discusses in a v. candid way how to ensure that the woman reaches orgasm as well so as not to deny her her right...subhan Allah!

It is our shame that we do not KNOW Islam; unfortunately, the trend amongst our so-called elite and ruling class is to mock islam and its ulama based on an insufficient and biased view (aped from the western media)!

To summarise, you seem like a talented writer and that is good :-) But it is better to not discuss such private matters in public as a Muslim....

welcome to Chowk!!! And may Allah give you a Muslim husband who can satisfy all yuor sexual needs (and you his)!!! That is also a part of being a good Muslim. (BTw in shar`iat it is allowed to wank off your partner till he/she comes. A person asked Imam Abu Hanifa about it and he [rahmatullah alayhi] replied that it is allowed and may those who do it get great reward for it.)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

May Allah forgive me any mistakes. ameen.