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TAhmed #142

I think it should be read in reverse.

Countries with economic growth have more human rights.

Rather than countries with more human rights have more economic growth.

Otherwise I will hang Karl Marx upside down to see in the view it is stated.

krashid #145

I questioned your credentials since you questioned mine and the chowk editors`. Tit for tat. I know that literature and what qualifies as good and bad is not bound by stringent definitions. I maintain, however, that writing should not be censored just because certain people find the *subject matter * itself objectionable. It is the treatment, the style, the way you create something from that subject matter that differentiates the good from the indifferent.

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Studebaker #148

Thank you for the reply. Please give me some time to understand and respond to you.

It will serve no purpose if I wrote down all that immediately springs to mind. The challenges we have in India are huge. These challenges can only be met if Indian Hindus and Indian Muslims and all other kinds of Indians make an effort to understand one another.

Jawahara#147

The problem is not denying the rights. But choice of article by Chowk staff.

I am pretty sure many articles submitted on Chowk go to dust bin.

Particularly, in succession. The article we are discussing, Choo Moo Article, spanish poem etc in succession, led me to write to be at least prudent in selection.

May be Chowk staff can add another category for these kind of patronizing.

Called Patronizing Lane. Or President`s house.

Do you believe in reverse discrimination?

Jawahara #

In continuation of my previous response.

As you are saying that I asked your credentials and that is why you are asking mine.

I went through all my post. Can you please tell me where I have committed that sin.

krashid/zahra: So I take it you think the cause and effect works the other way (prosperity causes improvements in women`s status and not vice versa). I agree with you on this, but dont think that this precludes the direction of cause and effect emphasized in the study: improved women`s status causes prosperity. One way it works is as follows: improved women`s status leads to fewer children (since they carry the burden of pregnancy) and better education for these children. And that leads to prosperity. And there are other ways as well in which improvements in women`s status in society improves the overall society as well. So what we have is a ``virtuous circle`` where cause and effect works both ways to lift society from it`s animal-like past to a higher level of morality and well-being in the future.

TAhmed:

Thanks for your humor-filled post. I cannot resist questioning: what planet are you from?

[krashid/zahra: So I take it you think the cause and effect works the other way (prosperity causes improvements in women`s status and not vice versa).]

I am not sure what KRashsid implied, I did NOT tread the above path at all.

[I agree with you on this...]

The agreement got wasted.

[(since they carry the burden of pregnancy) and better education for these children.]

Well, I am very grateful for this revelation. I always assumed the other way around. [Shushdur]
(?_?)

[And there are other ways as well in which improvements in women`s status in society improves the overall society as well.]

I completely agree with this thought. :-)

[So what we have is a ``virtuous circle`` where cause and effect works both ways to lift society from it`s animal-like past to a higher level of morality and well-being in the future.]

Ok, I will try to be a little kind here. I questioned the gist of your previous post. I repeat: Do you need a study, to tell you something that should be very obvious in this day and age? Rather than realizing that, you are cross-examining the rationale behind it. And this is 2001? Isn`t it? Well, that`s pretty bad. Before I jump to any conclusions, I better know: what was the big *surprise * in that study for you?

Now, if you were reiterating the *facts * to fellow men on board; please excuse my intrusion! You were certainly involved in a Karae`Khair and I interrupted the discourse. My apologies.

Regards.

Zahra #153 Glad you found my post humorous (albeit unintended). Actually this may be the 21st century by your calendar, but it is 4000 BC by the calendar inside the heads of many people which results in the notion, for example, that it is better to have male children than female: As a father, I am absolutely delighted to have daughters and to watch them grow up. And yet I am aware that in India for example they had to have some kind of laws prohibiting people from terminating pregnancies (I put it delicately) after determining the gender of the foetus in the sonogram to be female; in China, the one child policy has had one exception - if the first child is a girl, the couple can try again until they have a boy. And I am not even getting into the practice of purdah in muslim societies (I find it fascinating what the Quran has to say about this and what the common beliefs are); sex discrimination; and so forth. So, you and I are convinced that this study was unnecessary, but it`s results would be unbelievably challenging for many people to accept.

Tahmed:

[Actually this may be the 21st century by your calendar, but it is 4000 BC by the calendar inside the heads of many people which results in the notion, for example, that it is better to have male children than female: As a father, I am absolutely delighted to have daughters and to watch them grow up. And yet I am aware that in India for example they had to have some kind of laws prohibiting people from terminating pregnancies (I put it delicately) after determining the gender of the foetus in the sonogram to be female; in China, the one child policy has had one exception - if the first child is a girl, the couple can try again until they have a boy. And I am not even getting into the practice of purdah in muslim societies (I find it fascinating what the Quran has to say about this and what the common beliefs are); sex discrimination; and so forth. So, you and I are convinced that this study was unnecessary, but it`s results would be unbelievably challenging for many people to accept.]

Thanks for the examples. I AGREE with the gist of your post, but it`s not only me who is living and breathing in the 21st century. I will give you few personal examples of my elders, who are very dear to me. Some, I have not even seen, but do go to offer Fatiha whenever I am at their graves. I guess they call them, ``Ahdae` Raftaa Kae` Loag?``

a) My late nana jaan was in railways - a selfmade, very religious and well educated man, with 12 kids. My mother has (mashallah) 9 sisters and 3 brothers. Despite my nana jaan`s very strict and disciplined outlook; he had a strong emphasis on his daughters` education. According to Ammi[the 9th daughter and the 11th child]; nana jaan would personally take a lot of interest in all the kids` education, regardless of their gender. There was a big generation gap among his kids, but still he would take out time for the younger ones and give them personal attention in their prose and poetry readings in the evening. According to Ammi, they used to dread those daily sessions [after coming back from their college & university], but now when all of them look back, they have the fondest memories. My Ammi is in her early 50s and my oldest Mamoo Jaan is in his late 70s to early 80s. I gave the age group to make you realize that I am talking about people who were not born today.

b) On the other end: my late dada jaan was a very successful lawyer, a well read scholar, and a linguist - held many degrees in law and oriental languages. He had 9 kids[mashallah] - 4 daughters and 5 sons. And all my aunts are well read and fairly strong women - lived in boarding schools in those days. According to Abu, late grandpa`s favorite one was into farsi poetry and falsafa - a philosophy major[a Ravian]. Interestingly, she never got to change her last name; her hubby`s name was the same as her father`s name. How lucky!She is in her early 70s now.

Point being, that 70 - 80 years back, people in our part of the world had this sense to love, cherish and educate their daughters. And those daughters instilled that passion of education in their daughters and the chain kept on going.

The studies you are quoting, make me look into the days of Jahalut. Why should I waste my time in reading such studies? Why should not I look and find other studies that tell me how to keep the ``teh`kaa`` being a woman ? Any study by worldbank/undp/unifem focusing on that?[In a very humble tone]Please do let me know.

Huma Tun Gosh! (!(!( [My Newly discovered emoticon]

PS: On a serious note, your intentions are very noble and you have all my respects. Personally, I would not like to see the ``munhoos soorat`` of any one; who holds a retarded & backward mindset regarding women. I was amazed to watch the emphasis on women`s role in the movie, Jinnah.

Hi,

I have this feeling that you posted this poem just to enjoy the reaction of the people. And you log in everyday to read the latest, with a big smirk on your face........ But if you actually care for the interaction, I would like to contribute my two pence.

I think its a good poem. You have a nice way of writing. The simplicity of the composition vis a vis the complexity of the topic, makes an interesting picture.

It happens to be an experience we all have.... as you mentioned in your reply # 28. But why delve in something associated with our instincts, when we have matured into something much higher, and the human mind has reached its phenomenal status? We all have a digestive system, and maybe a good poem can be written about the functions of a pancreas, but should it really be written? Why not write about emotions, experience, causes, effects, conclusions and concepts?

Forgive me for saying this, but it seems that you are only focusing on experiences which have a very common and yet a very individual nature. Like getting by mosquitoes.

Regards,

Jamil