Open Letter to Prime Minister Vajpayee

Ref PM #: 477

I said [``It would be interesting to know how many of the Pak women are studying art and art history in the Western countries with the hope of getting a job in a museum or art gallery as a curator but support the Taliban`s destruction of the Bamiyan statues. That would complete the circle of hypocrisy.``]

You replied [Your are a lot more convincig when presenting arguments to expose the logical inconsistencies/ hypocricies of others. It`s true we all have our biases. Most of us try not to let that overtake our better judgement, or revel in the hatred.]

I was looking for just one more logical inconsistency. Like Khomeini spending his life in Gay Paree (your example, or was it sigalph`s?), or F_K, Barrister Amer, and Asif Naqshbandi living in the West while cursing it, I was wondering if one could find more examples of hypocrisy.

As regards revelling in hatred, I really don`t. I sit here with a huge smile on my face as I skewer those who seem incapable of thinking through their arguments. Sometimes, the Chowk editors seem unable to handle my characterization of people (like when I called the resident grammarian a pea-brained idiot) and refuse to publish my posts but, hey, that is the occupational hazard of being an unreconstructed Hindu.

Have fun!

Farzana 475:

``Why can India and Islam not be a part of me then?``

More power to you. Name one Indian on this forum or in a position of responsibility who has said that Islam and India are incompatible. The people who say that are usually Pakistanis or Kashmiri Muslims seeking secession.

``But one thing is clear: I actively stay away from specific Muslim upliftment. I have refused to participate in anything that reeks of communalism – be it teaching at a college where the trust is run by Muslims, or accepting an award from a Muslim-run organization (Khushwant Singh, who I think anyway deserves it more, happily took it), or even letting any Muslim outfit ‘use’ me when I went through a professional crisis.``

This is really sad. Nobody can uplift EVERYBODY at one go. If there is a group focussing specifically on Muslim upliftment, they need to be supported, not shunned. If you are afraid of being narrow, go help a Hindu or Christian group as well, go help a non-denominational group as well. Never stop yourself from doing anything good. Dont be ``used`` by anybody but surely Muslim self help is not a bad thing that you have to avoid. Granted non-denominational help is better but nothing wrong with targetted help.

Farzana #473:

``Truth: Please don’t do this to me, or I might start liking you as much as I like Ali!``

YUCK!!! GAG!! HELP ME WHILE I THROW UP! THATS THE BEST YOU CAN DO????

Everybody is nice to their mother - its how you treat the ones you disagree with that defines a person. Your defense of ali1 was vacuous, it boiled down to this: ``He was nice to me, so who cares what he said to anybody else!`` What self-absorption!

Good luck Farzana. You must marry heart with head Farzana. Otherwise, you will become one more in the legion of well intentioned people who go seriously wrong.

Farzana #473
``But one thing is clear: I actively stay away from specific Muslim upliftment. I have refused to participate in anything that reeks of communalism - be it teaching at a college where the trust is run by Muslims, or accepting an award from a Muslim-run organization (Khushwant Singh, who I think anyway deserves it more, happily took it), or even letting any Muslim outfit ?use? me when I went through a professional crisis``

Farzana, I have read only your articles which appreared on chowk. Three out of four claimed to represent a solely `Muslim` point of view. It seems you have no hesitation in drawing communal distinctions between `Hindu` and `Muslim` points of view in your writings at least.

Thats wholly a matter of your own choice, but it doesnot go well with `` I have refused to participate in anything that reeks of communalism``

And since you go so far as to make communal distinctions in your writings, I would actually agree with harimau and encourage you to take interest in `specific Muslim upliftment, too`. There was another chowk poster many months ago, who happened to be from Mumbai too, who raised what seemed to be a very valid point. She said, those NGOS and other agencies who promote education or social welfare among the wider community are often viewed with suspicion by Muslim families as a threat to their religious autonomy, duty and identity. For this reason Muslim families donot benefit from progressive activism promoting education or other social welfare initiatives as do other Indians.

If I remember right, she commented that for this reason, attempts toward Muslim upliftment are most effective when they are initiated from within the community.

Sadhana

harimau #475
Time is slipping by, no one is apologising to you, you feel left out..

Shankar #

I was referring to the way Indianness is being described these day.

If you think that Kashmiris have a right for self-determination your are not patriot or in other words Indian. (Ironically India recognize Kashmir as its part, but does not recognize the rights of people of Kashmir)

Once a country or religion or whatever takes precedence over people then it is a state or religious ideology.

I expect other person to have thinking according to his brought up and surrounding. But this should not be a bar in human interactions.

Iranians are different sect than mine. I have had discussions and someimes heated on religious matters. But they in no way interfered or retarded the human relationship. As Temporal loves to say. Pehle Insaan Phir Musalman.

Farzana Warsi #

The point was simple.

Many a Pakistanis have on this forum views much different from the usual image of Pakistanis. A Muslim fundamentalist, Patriot.

We discuss the issues freely.

Has anyone hounded me, or temporal or YLH, or HamidM or BAhmed or even PM or Sattar or Omar 74 that we are not Pakistanis because we don`t affirm to a particular patriotic sh-it. It only shows that we are more tolerant of differing points of view inspite of living under Martial Law:-)

And I don`t know if patriotism can be defined on the basis of hate for a different country. If that is patriotism then it is on a very slender thread.

(For my own sake. I donot believe in patriotism. I believe in God and human. Patriotism is a sh-it created by weak oppressors)

re. harimau 476:

``It would be interesting to know how many of the Pak women are studying art and art history in the Western countries with the hope of getting a job in a museum or art gallery as a curator but support the Taliban`s destruction of the Bamiyan statues. That would complete the circle of hypocrisy.``

I can assure you, none. The Pakistani young women who travel abroad for studies would be almost entirely from the class that F_K refers to as Ba-Ba-Black-Sheep. Even more so those opting for the Arts. As such, you can rest assured you`d not find a single one ``completing [that] cirlce of hypocrisy``.

Your are a lot more convincig when presenting arguments to expose the logical inconsistencies/ hypocricies of others. It`s true we all have our biases. Most of us try not to let that overtake our better judgement, or revel in the hatred.

rgds,

PM

Just a general observation.

It would be interesting to know how many of the Pak women are studying art and art history in the Western countries with the hope of getting a job in a museum or art gallery as a curator but support the Taliban`s destruction of the Bamiyan statues. That would complete the circle of hypocrisy.

Ref sadna #: 463

[Again, was I apologizing to you??]

Of course not. As I said before, you namby-pamby Hindus apologize to Muslims who lost their Mughal empire due to their incompetence but whine, to buffalo-worshippers who feel thay don`t get to feed enough at the public trough in India, and a host of other pathetic idiots who are supported by affirmative action in India for vote-bank politics.

[Am I selling you anything?]

Yes; you seem to think that Hindus, who have been oppressed far worse under Islamic rule, need to bend over backwards because someone whines and feels the need to feel secure. Well, let them get security blankets, like Linus does in the comic strip `Peanuts`.

[So who are you to tell me to go peddle anything anywhere? In what way do you think you are `better` than me to pronounce judgement and order me around?]

I am not ordering you around. I am just telling you that your pathetic handwringing doesn`t cut the mustard with me.

[I was protesting your language.]

Yes, I noticed that you didn`t have one word to say when one of those Pakis called Hindus penis-worshippers. No protest then; it might wound their feelings. Well, I got news for you: I don`t care about their feelings.

[And tell me, re Babri Masjid, if I happen to kill you, should I later apologize to your family? Maybe not, right, because if I think you deserve to be killed..?]

Of course not. You don`t have to apologize to Hindus; only to Islamists who kill innocent pilgrims or destroy statues.

Ref Farzana Versey #: 473

[Yes, I do feel very strongly about Kashmir, and no one has the right to take that away from me, by saying that I should worry about poor Muslims in Mahim. If I am accused of shedding crocodile tears (incidentally I haven’t done that as yet), then the same can be said about those who went into overdrive about the pundits in J&K.]

Aren`t you the one who said that the Pundits left Srinagar because of unfounded rumors printed as headlines in the Srinagar newspaper about attacks on the pundits? Whether that was true or false, what tears have you shed about the plight of the pundits who are living in refugee camps? How about those pilgrims who were attacked on their way to the Amarnath Cave? I didn`t see you shedding tears about that.

[And besides taking potshots at the “head-shrinker”, I do not think anyone has asked the psychiatrist here to analyse important issues.]

Nobody is so dumb as to write to the headshrinker for advice.

[The person who comes here quoting something I wrote in the Bombay papers, would he ever write in that manner in the letters to the editor there? Isn’t it strange that he uses a ‘Paki’ Board to get back at an Indian?]

I don`t write any letter to any newspaper. I am using a `Paki` board to attack Pakistanis as well as Indians who take a one-sided view of history as well as current events.

[I want to know how dare anyone say something like this: “But you are threatened for your perceived anti-national attitudes.” Only because I speak with a degree of force, I become anti-national?]

The last time Indian Muslims talked about the discrimination against Muslims in a Hindu-dominated India, it resulted in the partition of India. Any support of the ``suffering`` Muslims of Kashmir which echoes PTV`s opening shots in its daily news segment of some dead man`s body (no, this is not actual news footage for the day; it is one of the standard opening theme scenes of PTV`s news nowadays, like showing the Pakistani flag or like NBC or ABC opening with their theme music and signature logos) will be construed as supporting the secession of Kashmir from India as is talk of ``a real azaadi Kashmir`` (I will look up your Chowk posting that contains the words in quote if you dare me; it won`t take me 10 minutes). That IS anti-National; the Muslims of Kashmir can lump it in India or hike it into Pakistan, the shining beacon for the subcontinent`s Muslims, as the Pakistanis seem to believe. The last time I asked about your position on the East Timor situation on another board, you asked how would I know what your position was. Well, with your sympathy for the Afghan regime`s destruction, it is obvious that Muslims can do no wrong in your eyes. How about speaking with a degree of force against Islamic thuggery? On this website? Instead of supporting the Afghan regime`s destruction of the cultural history of a nation?

Clearing the air...a long journey

Silence ought to be my weapon, but I think things did go out of hand. Some questions need to be answered. I will reiterate what I had said in my post (382): “ BTW: There is palpable silence by the Indians here regarding the arms deal bribery scam in the BJP exposed by Tehelka. (Ref my post #333)

Will some of you please come forward and say something? Aren`t you people worried? Or are you still shedding tears about the poor in Afghanistan versus the Taliban discussion? Come on, time to look in our own backyard.”

That was it. But it became an unseemly battle to score brownie points. And I came forward to clarify even those accusations only to be met with further nonsense. It is silly to say that no one has dragged me to the computer to answer queries. These are the same people who come and keep asking me to respond – some are challenging in their intellectual ardour (macgupta, for example, will qualify as the man who gave me sleepless nights over snakes!), but most are pathetic attempts at one-upmanship.

What is worse is the lies that have been perpetrated: Not once have I mentioned Chechens in any of my posts or my pieces; as regards the poor Afghans, this is the first time I mentioned them and you can see the context. Yes, I do feel very strongly about Kashmir, and no one has the right to take that away from me, by saying that I should worry about poor Muslims in Mahim. If I am accused of shedding crocodile tears (incidentally I haven’t done that as yet), then the same can be said about those who went into overdrive about the pundits in J&K. I mean, the extent of their intellectual concern can be excused, even when one person came on Board to state that the New Year wish for me was that I should be rendered homeless… If I was insensitive to the ‘poor pundits’, was this sensitivity? Who makes you people the keepers of my conscience? Who gives people here the right to ask me what I have done with my education when I am not even sure they have an education (an academic degree is of no consequence, if you do not know how to conduct yourself with decorum)? And why is it that even when I come in as a random poster, I am taunted about my journalistic role? Do you ask any economist on the Board for their expert advice? Or doctors? And besides taking potshots at the “head-shrinker”, I do not think anyone has asked the psychiatrist here to analyse important issues.

The person who comes here quoting something I wrote in the Bombay papers, would he ever write in that manner in the letters to the editor there? Isn’t it strange that he uses a ‘Paki’ Board to get back at an Indian?

I want to know how dare anyone say something like this: “But you are threatened for your perceived anti-national attitudes.” Only because I speak with a degree of force, I become anti-national? Must I be made answerable for an identity that comes with me, and therefore in some ways influences me? I think Shankar (#470), an expatriate, has said something that may make sense here: “India & hinduism will always be a part of my identity & I will always have affinity towards it---& when push comes down to shove, I will always defend India & hinduism--despite all its faults.” Will the Americans call him anti-national? Why can India and Islam not be a part of me then?



Cheraym: In the post where you say, “. Farzana, you also have to understand hindu views

sometime, don`t you?” you have mentioned that you admire reasonable Pakistanis; note you have not used the term ‘Muslims’. Same here. I admire reasonable Indians. Just curious: You have commended a certain individual who has been rubbishing me for his “powerful stuff”, would you still applaud him and his crony for uttering this,

[“ Rsaxena #378:

Re: harimau ``Any sensible person would be ashamed to own up the Quran as anything but rubbish.`` Exactly!]

Have I said anything so flippant about any religion?



Krashid: Aap to zarra nawazi se itne khush ho gaye ke itna bhi ehsaas nahin ke kuchch chune hue logon ko guldasta de kar ashiyaan ko nazar andaaz kiya jaa raha hain. (Hope you are impressed with my Urdu!)

I would also like to know from you what exactly do you mean by, “As for Farzana, I can add. There must be something that makes her so critical. May be it is a Muslim character.

At least majority of my countrymen are very critical. And you might have noticed that none of them is as yet labeled Anti-Pakistani or even queer. Does it signify our belonging to Pakistan”?

I belong to India. And I have not yet formulated what the Muslim character is that would suit my temperament.



Sadhana: If my arguments are easy to disprove, then they should not get people so hot under the collar.

[“I find it funny that you should deride shoestring budgets when you belong to a poor country India which is full of poor people. And which happens to be replete with examples of how a little has been made to go a long way because people just are so poor. An informed journalist is most likely to know this, in fact.”]

I think you are intelligent enough to realise that I was reacting to this ‘I will send you to Kabul to taste the Islamic lifestyle and keep you in comfort’ business. That was a darned patronizing thing, and even worse. I think that flaunting anything material is in bad taste and those who know me, as a professional and a person, will vouch for that. I was making a point, and you have answered that. Yes, there are many poor in India. You are also right that pre-journalism I led a sheltered life. But unlike many who became columnists solely on the strength of hitting out at people post-riots, I do have a lot of field-level work to my credit, and while columns got me visibility, it is these stories that have made an impact on my life. And unlike scribes who do a story and disappear, my commitment is longer. May be some other time to discuss these. But one thing is clear: I actively stay away from specific Muslim upliftment. I have refused to participate in anything that reeks of communalism – be it teaching at a college where the trust is run by Muslims, or accepting an award from a Muslim-run organization (Khushwant Singh, who I think anyway deserves it more, happily took it), or even letting any Muslim outfit ‘use’ me when I went through a professional crisis. This is the absolute truth. If I have talked about a privileged existence, it is to lay the cards on the table. Besides, if I did not possess the relevant sensitivity I really need not have gone out and muddied my hands and stuck my neck out.

There will be disagreements between us, but I hope we can have civil arguments.



Truth: Please don’t do this to me, or I might start liking you as much as I like Ali!

[“But what really, really pissed me off was your sisterly advise to ali1. Here is a guy full of contempt for Hindus almost all the time and you actually were giving him some friendly advise and then generalizing the ``friendly`` advise as ironic - you said

something to the effect: ``dont you see the irony, I can give friendly advise to a Pakistani but the Indians, well they might as well not even exist.`` ]

Yes, I was angry with you; what you call ‘counter-spray’ did have some substance, but it was not to your liking. Fair enough. You should have said that instead of saying all those other things. Re Ali, I am aware of his reputation here, but I am a sucker for that one gesture that reveals a human being. He had once very perceptively observed that while the posters here could get away with anything due to their anonymity, whatever I said here could be used against me. It has been. I thank him for noticing something so obvious. Two, he said something very foul about me, but his apology was sincere. Three, I think it was generous of him to take note of my ‘advice’, though he could have asked me to mind my business.

Satisfied? Now, after this ‘personal correspondence’ I do hope you will see that what I need to “resubmit” is my mind. I use my heart. But what to do…all those Hindi films.



Pankaj: [“Ignore the nasty personal attacks. Those who do so only debase themselves. Our only identity is that all of us are citizens of India. And our progress collectively is linked with a strong and prosperous nation.”]

I tried ignoring it as best I could, and I hope some of you realise that I am more Indian than many here who flaunt their Indiannness.



Layman & Harpreet: Thanks. I know I can fight for myself, but to observe decency only confirms my belief that people cannot smell the garbage for too long.



Urstruly: Shukria. Yes, we will disagree, but I hope you will now not lecture me ever about bashing up any religion. And, take time off to learn some Urdu :)

“Never give in and Never give up.” Won’t. Kasam se.



temporal: I feel grateful and sad that you made an appearance where angels have feared to tread…ghayab ho gaye sab…I am grateful because aap ne bolti bund kar di aise logon ki…and it pained me because a person of your calibre felt compelled to visit this bazaar and respond to such muck. It must have been really dirty. Which is why even you had to get angry enough to say, “ SHE HAS BALLS, HARIMOU YOU DON’T.”

You know something? I may have balls, but you have something much more: wisdom and jigar. One day I hope some of it rubs of on me…

Harpreet

who says I have any intentions to meet children:)

Urstruly # 469

``Sadna

Can I write too?``

Dont do it Sadna......he`ll frighten the poor things to death....havent they had enough misfortune already?

:-)

regards

Harpreet

KRashid,

#431

{{Give me one name from across the border, whom I can respect. Shankar is an exception probably because he shirked his Indian ness.}}

While I appreciate your kind words re me, let me clarify my position:

I havent shirked my ``Indianness``, I cant, because that is ultimately my identity. Eventhough one of the happiest day of my life was when I took the oath of American citizenship, I will remain an Indian American hindu. India & hinduism will always be a part of my identity & I will always have affinity towards it---& when push comes down to shove, I will always defend India & hinduism--despite all its faults.

I`m sure all/most first generation Pakistanis feel the same about their homeland or religion.

When I immigrated to the US, I was fully concious of the reality that my descendants will be American & will lose their affinity to India--if not the second generation; DEFINITELY the subsequent generations.

As far as their religions are concerned; they may or may not retain it; but I feel hindus will lose their core hatred towards muslims & vice versa. I`ve seen too many desis forcing their culture, prejudices & religion down the throats of their kids. My personal belief is that they are in for a very rude shock. I`m already seeing it in my practice--the ones who have forced it are facing the greatest rebellion among their kids--either overtly or covertly. Many Chowkies may disagree, then let us agree to disagree.

Ronald Reagan loved to quote a Russian proverb; ``Trust, but Verify``. That proverb is an oxymoron, but very relevant in the cold war. In this perpetual cold war between India & Pakistan, even the moderates on both sides have come to a compromise ``Hate, but Respect``. Perhaps the word ``hate`` is too strong , but I hope you get the general message. Indians & Pakistanis or hindus & muslims will always have some fundamental & irreconcilable differences .The best we can hope for is that we agree to disagree & then build a positive relationship among those who can get past that psychological baggage.

IMHO, whether you are Indian or Pakistani, hindu or muslim or any other religion--our self esteem comes (or should come) from within, not without. So, in the final analysis, it really doesnt matter if someone else hates or has no respect for us. In that respect ALL of us are in the same boat as God/Allah/Bhagwan. Millions of people, all over the world, hate/ have no respect/ or have completely disowned HIM. Should He feel devastated about THAT?! If the greatest power in the universe is not immune from being hated; what chance do we mere mortals have?

What I WAS/AM disillusioned with is that both India & Pakistan are doomed to a perpetual gutter because we have used religion as an instrument of politics & hatred. I feel that when religion is twisted for the purpose of hating our fellow human beings, to score domestic or international political points, God/Allah/Bhagwan gets disgusted & abandons us.

The same can be said about Israel/Palestine. It is the most sacred land for 3 great religions. I fear God/Allah has abandoned them & those people will never ever enjoy the fruits of peace & freedom as long as they continue to politicise & twist religion as an instrument of hate. Whether it is hindu/muslim, jew/muslim, India/Pakistan or Arab/Israel--its ultimately ironical that each side argues that they have a higher moral authority in the eyes of God/Allah/Bhagwan; when He is disgusted by them ALL.

Whether we are in the cyberworld of Chowk or living in India/Pakistan, the only thing we can attempt to do is to see that bigots on both sides are marginalised & pray like hell that they dont make India & Pakistan nuclear wastelands.

Peace.

Temporalji,

Since you are following this thread---I apologise about not replying to you about that article. I am a complete ignoramus when it comes to this damn computer. I cant find that article & I `ve given up trying. In any case, I dont do psychoanalysis in my practice, so I dont thing I will be too much of an expert in that regard. Maybe some other time...

Rgds

Sadna

Can I write too?