Open Letter to Prime Minister Vajpayee

Anyone, particularly in the NY/NJ area, interested in receiving a mail from me about education for underprivileged children in India, may please write me at sadna123@mail.com.

Thanks,
Sadhana

krashid #464

``PM #450

I read with interest your point that history of Prophet PBUH has been sanitized by his followers.``

You *did *?? Where?

PLease look up the word possibility.

But I agree with you... Who needs to engage in sanitizing efforts when the very notions of what is sane and what is not can be turned on their head. Mr. Naqshbandi, one of the few souls who chooses to follow Islam to the T, not just in `spirit`, is a perfect example of this point, is he not? No apologetic sanitzing from that man!

``One can only wail at the Aqal of people who want to bring a new history out of air and think that they are doing some credible work.``

Now i`m not sure... is it me or Adnan672 you are referring to here?

At least the sanitized history has some basis.

Cheraym #439

Aap Ki Zarra Nawazi Hai.

Ab Mera Naam Bhi Shurfa Ke Saath Lia Jane Laga. Mere Sare Shurfa Bhai T-Bhai, TA-Bhai, BA-Bhai,Aur Jo Dagha De Giya Shah Sahib Sub Apni Pugri Ub Mazbooti Se Pakrein Gey.

As for Farzana, I can add.

There must be something that makes her so critical.

May be it is a Muslim character.

At least majority of my countrymen are very critical. And you might have noticed that none of them is as yet labelled Anti-Pakistani or even queer.

Does it signify our belonging to Pakistan.

Urstruly #442

I thought it is

``Sachchai Chupp Nahi Sakti``

Truth cannot be printed.

PM #450

I read with interest your point that history of Prophet PBUH has been sanitized by his followers.

The point you are making is in what context.

That is the only history exists as you know whether it is sanitized or not.

One can only wail at the Aqal of people who want to bring a new history out of air and think that they are doing some credible work.

At least the sanitized history has some basis.

harimau #458
``Well, you can peddle that bullshit somewhere else. The Muslims might lap it up but I am not buying it.``

Again, was I apologizing to you?? Am I selling you anything? So who are you to tell me to go peddle anything anywhere? In what way do you think you are `better` than me to pronounce judgement and order me around?

I was protesting your language. I was not telling you to what to think or say. Make sure you pay the whole amount when you buy chowk and show me the receipt before you start bossing anyone around here.

And tell me, re Babri Masjid, if I happen to kill you, should I later apologize to your family? Maybe not, right, because if I think you deserve to be killed..?

Sadhana

Re. Assad_K #448:

“On introspection, I usually don`t reply to people who reveal their strong biases the second they appear. You I`m engaging because I used to agree with almsot everything you wrote, until Shiraz appeared…”

Gee, I didn’t realize that that dude charged me up so J. Maybe you’re right. I’d have to admit that there were many things he said that were lying dormant, that I didn’t want to think about or accept (trying to live and let live) but which really did make sense. I hasten to add that there were many things I didn’t agree with him on too. But the fact is, the more I think about those questions, the more I see eye to eye with him. Especially lately.

“And, in some ways, you are correct - it probably IS because you are Christian.”… No, it’s not. Maybe it’s because I’m not a Muslim. I assure you, had the Christians been half as ‘defensive’ as Most Muslim appear to be, I’d have had fatwa galore on my head for my views on Christianity.

But what I fail to understand is why you should think that the existence of a bias, or a passion, or subjectivity should detract from one’s arguments – or at least when they are cogent. If I am not to be ‘trusted’ because I lack objectivity on a matter, then I guess so should most everyone else, by definition, on the ‘other side’.

I maybe be fully aware of my own biases. However, I make every attempt to not let them enter my arguments.

“I find troubling for all that implies about Pakistan and how its treated its minorities.”

Glad someone has begun to appreciate how the integrative and subtle state-sponsored indoctrination erodes self-respect of those who don’t toe the establishment line. Neither am I talking just of minorities. I have (ex) Muslim friends who are probably more embittered than myself for the systematic prejudice that the state engenders. But honestly, I am not mad anymore. I fail to see how a nation founded in the name of religion – and a religion which regulates non-believers to second class status at that – can be any different. I am not being derisive here; merely philosophic. I hope for Pakistan and ylh’s sake that I am wrong – that there is something I am not accounting for that could, in fact, make it okay. I desperately want to see Pakistan survive and thrive.

“Intellectual appreciation for something is different from running into it.”

Not sure I got you there, but I reckon I’ve answered that one.

“I think you gave an email addy once, if you can repeat it I may email you there with a somewhat clearer explanation of what I mean (since I think i`m being a bit fuzzy here...).”

Not fuzzy at all. postmatser@yahoo.com

Rgds,

PM

PS. Please don’t insult my intelligence again by suggestng I would let the rantings of an Ali1 cloud my judgement. :)

temporal 445

I add my voice in support.

Harimau, I hope you see what Sadhna has been saying. We will only know what you are saying if we are able to read you. But most people, including me, can`t read you if you use the language you do. I am no namby-pamby and can myself use the strongest possible language. But as ahmadb said once - there is a time and place for everything.

I make this suggestion in all sincerity. Tone down. Then we can agree with you or criticize you on the merits of your arguments.

InYourFace # 453

I agree. But scout (#440) was hardly making any of those vicious attacks we all seem to specialize and delight in. So let us not read too much evil in her post. She makes a good point that India continues to face third world conditions. Overall, she is a friendly enlightened critic. We need such people if we are to continue to get better.

Ref Assad_K #: 448

[Patrick

Hm, having just read Ali1`s post 421, that doesn`t exactly help MY case, does it? Sigh...]

Well, how about this by our one and only Ali1 on the board `The Meaning of Pakistan`?

Ref sadna #: 455

[You can argue all you like, but if you choose to undermine your valid arguments with a display of overt hatred, thats your own stupidity, don`t blame other people.]

Calling a spade a spade in not a display of overt hatred; it is a display of realism.

[btw, if I am an apologist, how is it that I am not apologizing to you]

You guys apologize to Muslims, Backward Classes, buffalo-worshippers and anybody else who thinks that he is not getting 25% of the economic pie because of domination by the Hindu upper castes never mind the fact that he belongs to a minuscule 3% minority and doesn`t have an education worth a tinker`s damn.

By the way, I noticed you have already started apologizing on another board where you said destruction of the Babri Masjid was worse that the Taliban`s destruction of the cultural heritage of Afghanistan. That is an example of apologizing for being a Hindu. It is okay for Muslims to destroy anything and everything they come into contact with but we Hindus must not offend the poor Muslims by destroying one mosque which was anyway erected on grounds holy to Hindus. Well, you can peddle that bullshit somewhere else. The Muslims might lap it up but I am not buying it.

Ref Assad_K #: 433

[though indeed I fail to see how the ‘occasional verse’ counts as harmless.]

It is obvious that the `occasional verses` in the Quran enjoing the Faithful to kill the kaffirs and destroy the idols are the only operative ones. So, I will have to agree with you that `occasional verses` are not harmless. We are of course constantly told that the major verses are about how Muslims should be lovey-dovey with Jews, Christians, idolaters, pagans and other lovely people.

[So, um, this is a time limit you set before deciding if someone is bigoted or not?]

On the other hand, there is something to be said for taking a dislike at first sight: it saves so much time later on!

[Basically every post is slamming Islam and Muslims, from the core beliefs to the Messenger to the current practicioners.]

If the current practitioners do not follow medieval practices, I wouldn`t have anything to say, would I? I mean, look at the Kosovons, for whom the West had a lot of sympathy. Once they got little Kosovo safe from the filthy Serbs, do they settle down happily? No, they have to attack Macedonia to ``liberate`` fellow Albanians -- shades of Pakistanis itching to free the Kashmiris -- and the West is thinking of getting the Serbian army patrols back into action to protect the Macedonians. Proving the point that the only way to keep a Mussalman from going off his rocker is to keep him in a minority position in a larger country. The minute they form their own country, in quick order they get feelings about the Ummah, khilafat, Pan-Islamism, meddling in their neighbor`s affairs, suppressing their own minorities, fervent belief in `occasional verses`, etc.

[I might be inclined to regard it as an example of Hindu disdain for Muslims.]

Make it general disdain for hypocrisy and one-sided arguments and you would be right on target.

[But since he’s presumably also attacking beliefs, not people, I guess its kosher..]

Halal. Ha-ha-ha-ha-lal.

[Probably the only person here who COULD would be the Naqashbandi]

Farangi_Kush, Barrister Amer. etc., come to mind. But Barrister Amer was probably the one holding the placard warning Tony Blair `The Khilafa is Coming` during the London demonstrations against the new Anti-Terrorism Act and may not be available immediately.

[but he praised the person who threatened to cut of a childs head who disliked a fruit the Prophet (PBUH) enjoyed]

Standard Islamic punishment, one would presume, for being uppity. What is good enough for the Prophet ought to be good enough for some snot-nosed fly-blown brat, one would think.

[As I said, my source for the life of the Prophet (PBUH) is Martin Lings’ book.. who does not mention these things. I don’t have it with me]

Good for you that you don`t have The Source. You ought to be reading up on public health anyway.

[so what he has to say about Ayesha, and what the existing Arab customs of the day regarding age of ‘majority’ were, I can’t look up.]

You can still tell us, from a medical viewpoint, the physical and psychological effects of sex on a 9-year-old; Arab customs don`t impact that.

Cheers.

Your friendly, neighborhood Penis-God Worshipper.

Any educated adult who postulates the moral equivalence of Nelson Mandela and Mullah Omar of the Taliban is going to endure a lot of crap no matter where they live.

It is then impossible to distinguish what one such endures because of gender or religious bias and what one such endures because of oneself.

I can feel sympathy for one such, but it is not the sympathy of justice denied; it is the sorrow at seeing a big, unnecessary mess.

-Arun the Infidelator

harimau #452
You can argue all you like, but if you choose to undermine your valid arguments with a display of overt hatred, thats your own stupidity, don`t blame other people.

btw, if I am an apologist, how is it that I am not apologizing to you?

Urstruly #444

Whats this person talking about, who can even guess?

Sadhana

Re veeresh #: 434

[btw does Pakistan have the same Section 420 of Penal Code as do we in India]

Most likely, yes. Section 144 of Pakistan Penal Code is the same as 144 in India which bans assembly of more than 4 persons.

It is funny to hear talk of Pakistan Penal Code of 1935 on PTV.

#440:

``Could the government of the ``greatest`` most ``secular`` country be corrupt and make it to the front page of CNN.com?``

Look at the names of the journalists involved in exposing the story and realize that it was a ``secular`` effort. BTW, Are you gloating? If I were you I would feel sad. Why aren`t such cases are not being exposed in Pakistan? Is it because there is no such things in your country?

``Once a third world country, always a third world country. Why the hell are desis so corrupt?``

Do you know of any other third world country where corruption scandals are exposed by dot com journalists and politicians are MADE TO FACE THE MUSIC? You may deride us as ``thirld world`` but, tahelka.com is out of this world.

PS. Hope your country produces a tahelka.com. Beleive me, it is much better than shipping them to Saudi Arabia or Dubai.