Open Letter to Prime Minister Vajpayee

The guilt of the enormity of the crime of the destruction of the Babri Masjid will hang around India`s neck for a long, long time to come. The crime may one day be mercifully forgiven, but should never be forgotten.

When you strip the Bamiyan/Ayodhya to the BEST arguments of their proponents and have to make a judgement, YOU, each of YOU, have to decide on the following questions:

1. Is destruction of idol/statue of another community a worthy goal? - (The BEST taliban position)

2. Is reconstruction of temple of a community a worthy goal? - (the BEST BJP position)

Here is my take: temple reconstruction is in itself an unobjectionable goal (even after the passage of time). However, as often happens, the issue often becomes conflicting goals: the desire to look ahead, the desire that the goal may not be understood, the desire not to hurt other people, the desire and indeed imperative to uphold the constitution. With these factors in mind and given the manner of the Babri Masjid destruction, MY individual take is:

1. The Taliban position is immoral.

2. The BJP position is not immoral.

3. The BJP position, while not immoral, is one I strongly disagree with.

Bina & Scout:

How has this destruction saved even one starving Afghan?

Next time, you criticize India for Kashmir, I`m going to ask you what you did for Rwanda. Every action should be judged on its own merits.

Let those who are crying themselves hoarse about international hypocrites remember :

1. The Taliban are recognized as the legitimate govt. of Afghanistan by only three countries -- Saudi Arabia, UAE, Pakistan.

2. The Taliban govt. are not even members of the OIC (the Islamic Conference). No doubt this is a Western conspiracy.

3. Even those who have recognized the Taliban are acquiescing in the US and Russia-led sanctions.

4. China, the other player in the ``Great Game`` of Central Asia, might have been expected to go the other way from the US and Russia over Afghanistan. They did not. One of the reasons is because of the persistent attempts by the Taliban to export ``Islamic revolution`` to the western provinces of China.

5. The other anti-Western, significant neighbor is Iran. But Iran has no sympathy for the Taliban, because they massacred Shia civilians.

All in all, the Taliban are responsible, by their own unforced actions, for the international isolation of Afghanistan. By arming them, and by having Pakistani army regulars fighting alongside with them, Pakistan too is culpable.

Face the truth !

-Arun the Infidelator

hobbyty and Farzana,

The funniest irony is the one that escapes people: Farzanas exist in, complain about, and fight self-made ghosts in India. Their are no Farzana equivalents in Pakistan.

As someone said, ``long live the difference!`` even though those benefitting from it the most don`t or refuse to see it.

Anand:

Welcome to chowk. You have set the pot boiling alright:)

Hope you will continue to produce those wonderful documentaries.

regards,

temporal

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Films of Anand Patwardhan

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/ind/anand.htm
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No foundation in Islam for rampage on statues

Haroon Siddiqui

STAR COLUMNIST

HAD THE Taleban not been isolated from the world by the American-led economic sanctions, starved of resources of which they had few to begin with, rendered too helpless to do anything for their 1 million internally displaced people fleeing drought or civil war, reduced to being mute witnesses to the death of starving and shivering children in winter refugee camps, would the rulers of Afghanistan have been less likely to destroy priceless pre-Islamic treasures?

Perhaps.

But of this there is little doubt: We would have had greater credibility in trying to save Afghanistan`s historic treasures had we been more helpful in saving its human beings.

While that debate goes on, there is another: What is the Islamic critique of the Taleban rampaging all statues, including two giant 2,000-year-old Buddhas?

Not much different than the secular world`s. For these Philistines are ignorant of the theology they invoke to justify their tyrannical rule.

Theirs is not so much an austere interpretation of Islam as one that distorts, often violates the words and spirit of the faith. Which is why Muslims everywhere have joined the international chorus of condemnation.

The Taleban`s shaky grip on religious doctrine shows in the confusing edict of their spiritual leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar.

The old Islamic injunction against drawing the human form is similar to the Christian and Jewish prohibition of the Ten Commandments: ``Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.``

Swept aside long ago - with the impeccable logic that if pictures and TV can show and transmit the word of God, how can they be illicit? - the ban is now preserved only by the Luddites who, like those of any faith, fear any innovation.

``The Ka`ba was the historic monotheistic centre of worship, established by Abraham, but later filled with idols. The prophet overturned that aggression,`` but went on to establish a multireligious state.

Islam extended to Christians and Jews, whose prophets they shared, full protection of the state, calling them dhimmis, from dhimma, guarantor. Declared Muhammad: ``Whoever oppresses a dhimmi, I shall be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgment.``

The state was to provide non-Muslims even the right to be tried under their own religious laws - a feature not duplicated by any other system, ``legal exclusivism being the very essence of national or political sovereignty,`` in the words of the authoritative Cultural Atlas Of Islam (Macmillan, New York, 1986).

When the first Muslim conqueror came to the Indian subcontinent in 711, not far from where the Taleban rule, he had never heard of Hindus or Buddhists. So he sought instructions from head office in Damascus. There the caliph called a synod of senior theologians. They wrote back that minorities ``must remain free to worship their gods as they please, to maintain their temples and to determine their lives by the precepts of their faiths.``

The Taleban - as indeed some other Muslim rulers these days, even if far less obscurantist than they - may read the Quran, the holy book in Arabic, but clearly don`t understand and certainly don`t follow its clear dictates:

Let there be no compulsion in religion. (2:256)

Whoever wills, let him believe; and whoever does not will, let him disbelieve. (18.29)

Also, an entire short chapter (111):
Say: O ye unbelievers.
I worship not that which ye worship,
And ye do not worship that which I worship;
I shall never worship that which ye worship,
Neither will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your religion; to me mine.


full column at

http://www.thestar.com/apps/ips?pagename=thestar/Render&cid=968332188492
click on columnist
then click on haroon siddiqui

Eklavya #38:

[...The funniest irony is the one that escapes people: Farzanas exist in, complain about, and fight self-made ghosts in India. Their are no Farzana equivalents in Pakistan...]

Irony? Pity!

Heard of Asma? That is Asma Jahangir? And Hina? Hina Gilani? And there are others.


And your point was? There was one? Right?

rgds,

t

So even the destruction of Buddhist statues by the Taliban has to be turned into an attack on Indian Government ? The GOI (gov. of India) are not composed of saints (for a Pakistani to expect that would be rather ironic).

The truth is that the Taliban are doing what the Prophet Mohammad did to the Meccans and their religion when he invaded Mecca and destroyed their temple. What about their religious stentiments ? (religious sentiments which the Muslims are so quick to point out when someone tries to question their religion - forget about insulting Islam - Islam is an insult to all religions ; just as schoppenhaur (sp?) deduced)

I only feel remorse for my fellow Muslims - we are the most brutal to each other (35 pilgrims died in a stampede in Haram Sharif once again). Last year the pilgrims spread the infamous Mecca Menegitis to the world, before that the tents burned and killed hundreds (at Mina).

The strange thing is instead of my fellow Muslims denouncing fanatics vehemently and taking care of their own they attack those who expose Islam.

If Mr. Patwardhan is who I think he is, he made a documentary on Advani`s Rath Yatra and Doordarshan acquired it and then decided it was too communally sensitive to air.

Then Mr. Patwardhan went to court and either the Delhi High Court or the Indian Supreme Court ordered it to be telecast on the national network at prime time(which is when I got to watch it). The statement made by the court was something like ``ordinary people need to be shown how they are manipulated by politicians``

I liked the documentary a lot and was proud of the Indian judiciary(and the national TV network). No riots happened after it was telecast. Its been 6-7 years? now and during this time I have began wondering, did Mr Patwardhan ever make a documentary on the trauma suffered by the Sikh widows of N. Delhi? Did he ever try to get eywitness accounts of the carnage carried out then, too on film? And in Mumbai riots`93?

I need to know where he stands on these events before I add my voice in agreement to his general statements of condemnation, I have often thought them after viewing the documentary I mentioned above. Its possible to be outraged at both the Masjid and the Buddhas simultaneously, using one event wholly unrelated in circumstances as leverage for another seems exploitative and politically motivated. Truthseekers need to expose truth not use leverage.

Sadhana

Eklavya #38:

Apologise for the tone in #40.

Kindly ignore the tone, not the contents.

regards,

temporal

MacGupta,

This is amazing. The author you quote makes just the point I was trying to hint at elsewhere. It is silly and useless to condemn Taliban unless we are willing to condemn all that forms the core of their beliefs. No one, liberals or extremists, has to guts to flat out say so.

Taliban are only putting into practice the beliefs that are at the center of what a very large number of poeple on this earth have earnestly believed in for at least a thousand years and continue to believe in under all kinds of guises. If this is Islam, we should openly get rid of this Islam. If this Hinduism, we should openly reject this Hinduism. No ifs and buts and feckless expressions such as `interpretations.` Recognize the evil core and have the courage to say: ``I renounce this evil. Neither I nor any of my descendants will have anything to do with it. I take my humanity back and give all my descendants the freedom to think. I liberate them from the hell of evil interpretations.``

Unless of course, people are committed to this evil core, and don`t want to admit it, even to themselves.

temporal:

thank you for the article with the quotes from the koran which are indeed transcendent and a strong statement of the rights of minorities. there are lessons to be learnt for seculars of all religions from these words in the koran. The idea of legal exclusion is indeed a powerful feature of Islamic law.

BUT my questions are of the following: is it possible for a Muslim majority, as per Islam, to elect as its head of ``state`` a person from a non-Muslim minority. In other words, there seems to be theological basis for a ``you of different religions, live and let live`` but is there a theological basis for ``you of different religions, lets work together``.

I suppose one can argue that to become President of America, you have to subscribe to the US Constitution - so similarly, to become President of an Islamic country, you have to subscribe to the Quran. Whats the difference? There are many but I`ll leave that for another day.

t,

Asma and Hina are brave women but they are not the Farzana`s of Pakistan. Farzanas of Pakistan will be women with names like Gayatri and Maadhuri. When these women get the imperfect protections and rights similar to the ones Farzanas have in India and begin writing articles equating the imperfections of Pakistan with its wickedness, I will happily and gratefully acknowledge their presence.

Should you and I wait for such women to arise in Pakistan? I fear it may be a very very long wait. And, that is the tragedy.

It is sad how quickly people turn to avoid uncomfortable facts by claiming ``it is all a matter of interpretation.``

Will this escapism ever change anything, ANYTHING at all anytime in the future? No. We will continue to see reasonably intelligent people make embarrassing attempts to evade the glare of facts, constantly re-interpreting history to paper over misdeeds.

Another issue. Is the West responsible for the death and destruction in Afghanistan? Some brazenly make this connection. Others hint at it darkly decrying how Western sanctions have been killing innocent Afghani children.

How many innocent Afghanistanis have been murdered by Talibanis? Who continues to support, fund, and train these students of Islam? Whose hands are red with the blood of Afghanis lying in mass graves scattered all over that wretched land? Who have sacrificed Afghani men, women, and children at the alter of an illusive ``strategic depth?``

You may not like it but the answer is: Muslims who fancy themselves as defenders of Islam. Sad, indeed.

Does anybody fear what may come to them on their Day of Judgement?

I`m forwarding another posting by someone on another list.

-Arun the Infidelator

A point to be noted here is that Afghans have already avenged the destruction of Babri Mosque in 1992 itself by decimating 50 temples in Afghanistan, and ethnically cleansing the Afghan Hindus from the country. Here is a report:

http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1995_11/msg00034.html

Of course the Talibans could argue that they were not in power then and so now it is their turn to get even with the Kafirs. Tomorrow, when somebody else takes over Afghanistan, they will also have their turn in avenging the destruction of the Babri Mosque (provided Taliban leaves some hate object for them at all!).

One also must not forget the destruction 100 temples in Pakistan, 200 in Bangladesh, 22 in UK, 50 in Afghanistan after Babri demolition. However, it is the privilege of Muslims to take revenge till Qayaamat or till Hindus cease to exist.

The fact is that historically, Islamic countries do not tolerate even 1% minorities. This, Afghanstan has become a virtually 100% Islamic nation from 99% in the last 2 decades. Minorities in 97% Muslim Pakistan are under the threat of extinction (they had 15-17% minorities in 1947), in Bangladesh the Hindu percentage has already fallen from 34% in 1941 to 8% now. In Egypt, Coptic Christians have declined from 15% around 1900 to less than 5% now. In Indonesia, the Christian minority is under intense pressure, Christians have fled northern Nigeria, parts of Chad/Mauritania/Lebanon/Syria in our own times. Iran expelled its Jewish minority and committed a genocide of the last surviving Zorastrainians (only a few thousand survive now around Yezd etc.) in the last two centuries. The Jews found Yemen alone as a refuge in the Islamic world and formed upto 40% of its population in some parts. Just a few decades back, they were expelled en masse. Kashmir valley within India is now greater than 99% Muslim, up from around 82% around 1900.

Here is website on Afghan Hindus. Read and weep. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/6706/index.html

Historically, any excuse has been acceptable for Muslims to go on rampaging against the infidels and the Dhimmis. Accusation of breaking a treaty by Jews was reason enough for Muhammad (PBUH) to slaughter 700 Jewish women, children and men close to Medina. He expelled the other Jewish tribes from that area. An estimated 25% Arabs were Jewish-Christian and the rest were Pagans, but taking the cue from the saying of the Prophet that `Two religions shall not dwell in Arabia`, Abu Bakr, the first Caliph, violently expelled ALL Christians and Jews from the whole of Arabia (with exception of parts of Yemen perhaps) and forcibly converted all Pagans to Islam.

Within the Koran itself, there are injunctions that non-Muslims are unclean and so cannot enter Mecca and Medina. If they are caught, instant death by stoning or whatever means will result. Non Muslims also cannot settle down permanently in Arabia, but can live temporarily (which is why the Muslims opposed US troops in Saudi Arabia during Saddam`s Kuwait occupation. Muslims feared that the Americans will form a permanent base there), and cannot reside even temporarily in the especially holy region (Hejaz) encompassing the coastal strip (and the area inland) including Mecca and Medina on the north western part of the Arabian peninsula. Those who sing panegyrics on the `egalitarian` and `Universal` nature of Islam and suggest that a `Ram-Rahim temple` should be constructed at Ayodhya should ponder over these facts.

Within the four schools of Sharia`h, only the Hanifites allow the Kafirs to live, but under great subjugation and humiliating conditions. The other three (Shafi etc.) have enjoined only death for us. In India, the Hanifas have been predominant (90% of Muslims) and so we Kafirs have survived. These little mercies!

People who are asking for consideration for the Taliban should kindly extend the same to the VHP, RSS, etc., if they want be consistent, that is.

-Arun the Infidelator