Lets Destroy The Bamiyan Buddhas!

In response to # 117

Ferozk #94

You wrote, “Lets admit the truth...big business paid for Bush`s election and corporate America is making huge returns...after all their errand boy is the president of the United States.”

You call yourself a republican? I think you’re in the wrong party, yaar. You see, it is the democrats (not the republicans) who subscribe to the “all the world is ruled by a super elite class of gora old racist capitalist pigs, so we must therefore surrender all our rights as citizens to an even more oppressive and tyrannical government in order to protect us from aforementioned pigs” theory.

Let me guess, you traditionally vote democratic, but, as a true hypocritical israeli-hating pakistani (you know, b/c israel did the same thing in ’48 that pakistan did the year before in forming a religious state – how dare those israelis!) you couldn’t bring yourself to vote for gore since he put a jew (lieberman) on the ticket. Whatever it takes to bring in the pakistani vote I guess…

sigalph235 #119

tahmed321 #110

Ferozk #94

I think the “bush is an idiot” stereotype is one that is too simplistic. Moreover, it definitely seems that bush and his administration not only ignore addressing the stereotype but also seem to try and perpetuate it in order for his opponents to underestimate him. Judging by bush’s performance in the presidential debates last year and his address to congress last week, the strategy is working.

I think bush is a true conservative, and if there is one thing clinton proved in his 8 years, its that conservative rule is superior. If you look at the relatively few good things that happened during clinton’s administration (although one of those few, the good economy, was a very big good thing), they were all fueled by conservative, traditionally republican, ideas.

You had 6 years of vibrant economic growth, which came (coincidentally?), after the republicans swept the congress in ’94, balanced the budget, and reined in spending. You had the republican welfare reform bill that clinton signed before the ’96 election after vetoing twice. You had the republican capital gains tax reduction that clinton signed. The one successful thing that clinton did support without being forced by republicans was NAFTA, for which he deserves credit. Overall, if you look at clinton’s record, the only things that were successful were the conservative/republican ideas. Traditional democratic initiatives like clinton’s socialized (“universal”) healthcare initiative of 92-93 or the CTBT or his middle east “peace” (at any cost to establish a legacy) initiatives all failed miserably. And even though the ’96 republican welfare reform was a tremendous success, no traditional left-wing democrat could support it, which is why you had ultra-left wingers like Ralph Nader coming out against clinton-gore last year.

Furthermore, in addition to the republicans taking over congress for the first time in what seems like a millennia, a majority of the nation’s governors went republican on clinton’s watch and these governors have fueled much of the innovative ideas in government coming from the states in the 90’s, including welfare and education reform. Not only was clinton extremely damaging to the democratic party, but despite his own liberal instincts, bill clinton’s record proves that conservatism (free market, small government, individual liberty) is truly the superior political philosophy. The only ideas that worked during the clinton years were the traditionally conservative ideas.

ahmadb,

you may like to read this -

http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20010312/edit.shtml#ba

re asfand`s

``Will you not give talibans even 50!``

No. You need to nip cancer in the bud. The problem with global communism was that it was given fifty years to prove its goodwill until Reagan and Thatcher came along and said this nonsense is simply evil and has gotta go. The civilized world cannot make the same mistake of waiting fifty years again for the barbarians to become acclimitized to civilized behavior.

It is quite a natural defense, and depth of helplessness, to compare the Taleban with the Founding Fathers of America. One revolution was based on the idea that ``...all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights...``; the other is based on the premise that Shiites are sub-human, Hindus non-human, and Budhdists idol-worshippers. Give me a break. I`ll be happy to share an eternity in hell with George Washington and Thomas Jefferson than a lifetime in paradise with Mullah Omar and his convoluted merchants of hate.

rsridhar (#117):

It was nice of you to calmly expound on what Hinduism is about to those who might not be aware. May I add my two paise worth?

The surfeit of gods is both a strength and weakness. While there is a veritable choice, faith, which should at the best of times be an invocation, becomes a vocation – a sort of running from one to the other. And, trust me, I say this not in a partisan manner. If Hinduism were indeed a way of life (which it was intended to be), then would there be any need for sects? Not only that, but movements like the Brahmo Samaj and Arya Samaj, and militant groups like the Bajrang Dal (Hanuman’s Army) have arisen primarily because there was an inherent dissatisfaction with this ‘way of life’ disparateness. Perhaps, some like you, do have a broader outlook and can accept it, but for the majority of Indian Hindus this is not possible. (An aside: It is not possible even within the more stringent confines of other religions like Christianity (the number of churches and evangelical movements will bear this out), or Islam (the Barelvis and Wahabis even fight over whether visiting mausoleums is right nor not), or Jainism (the Shwetambara and Digambara fight is to be seen to be believed), or even Buddhism (which though small is so spread out in its outlook, from the Tibetan – Hollywood version! – to the Japanese and Chinese, with the Karmapa issue thrown in).

You must also remember that this aspect of a “zillion gods” that you speak about is not as pat as it sounds. A Punjabi friend who lived in Kerala most of his life could not understand why Diwali and Holi were not celebrated. You have acknowledged that culture is a different issue, but when most of our culture is lodged in religion, how can the common man make the fine distinction? You must be aware that even the mythologies do not have a uniform appeal and are interpreted differently – Ravana is still revered in parts of South India, a calumny for those in the North. Then there is the Brahmin (scholars), Kshatriya (warriors), Vaish (traders), Shudra (untouchable) classes. Sorry for brining this up, but there are major differences among them, aren’t there? And this has nothing to do with geography.

I understand the spirit in which you have said some things, but let me update you on a few. You say, “There is now an understanding among all Hindus that all these Gods are same and represent different aspects of one single God (or Brahman). So you will never find Hindus ever fighting over their gods despite having a zillion ones to choose from. Since there is nothing as a last prophet, prophets have been born upto the present age,interpreting and reinterpreting the sacred texts,putting them in the right perspective,in consonence with the modern times. Nobody ever fights over the message of Geetha or the

Vedas.” Perhaps this is true in principle. (Incidentally, nobody disputes the essence of the holy books in other religions.) But even the five Shankaracharyas cannot come to an understanding over a simple temple construction issue. Just when a solution is round the corner, some sadhu comes up with a new version. To many of us this is the disappointing aspect. We feel let down after having been made to believe that Hinduism is dynamic and not theocratic. I hope you realise that this post is not meant to run down anyone.

Regards,

Farzana

Farzana # 125

Different and new sects coming in any religion or philosophy show new thoughts and it is this process of continuous evolution that `Hinduism` or whatever name one gives it has survived till now and has not got fossilised. Its most wonderful characteristic is that one does not have to do anything to be called a hindu. It is because of its inherent flexibility that India is the only place which has not been converted 100 percent by people coming from Arab as has happened in all others places. So, today whether one is Sanatani or Arya Samaji or Jain etc. they do remain Hindu and nobody is demanding that so and so should be adjudged as non-hindu.

Once a teacher of mine, a jatt sikh mentioned that Hinduism is the most reformed religion in the world. I asked him why. He explained that because this is an ancient religion and whichever new religion came that had to poach on its followers and so attack its rituals and customs. So, for its survival, even when it retained its basic philosophy, it had to keep on getting rid of outdated ideas and rituals. And this process has become its strenghth. An interactor here has talked about Dr. RadhaKrishnan`s book `History of Indian Philosophy`. I have read those two volumes. I advise you to read that.

Before, I finish, let me make it clear that I don`t mean that everything in Hinduism is Great. What I am trying to convey is that this is a way of life which has taught its followers to learn to move on with life in a way they want to. After knowing the difference between Good and Bad, Right and Wrong, moral and immoral etc. individual takes his/her decision and is solely responsible for his/her actions.

Therefore, all of us should welcome new ideas, thoughts because these make the societies vigorous. AND THIS IS INSPITE OF VHP AND BD.

Regards

Farzana 125,

It is ineresting to see the views of a non hindu from the hindi belt. Hinduism was not a religion, as we understand it till around 1920, there aws no way to become a hindu. In around 1920 Aryasamaj came up with a ritual to convert to hinduism, and `arya samaj` was recognised as a caste. After independance, several facilities were extended to certain castes, and those converted to christianity from these castes demanded the same facilities. Neo-budhists, and `avasa christavan`, approximately translated as `exhausted christians` are treated as `low castes ` in kerala. So in essence, in modern india castes are on the increase. Nowadays muslims are also demanding similar privilages.

According to Vivekanada, a hindu has to believe in god, and he has to believe in the vedas as revelations from god. This according to vivekanada is the eternal aspect of hinduism, all the rest, rama, krishna, ramayan and mahabharata and geetha are all temporal aspects. The vedas are only the worshipf the oneness of nature, with no imagery, as an idol of any god.

Because there are no specific instructions in the vedas and the geetha on the conduct of day to day life, there not even the commandments, hinduism is essentially `amoral`, beyond any `human` notion of good and bad, creation and destruction are seen as complimentary.

Iraquisation of pakistan may be bad for a few, could good in the long term, or may not be. Action is the essence.

Hinduism is fundamentally different from islam, by the simple sloka, `sambhavami yuge yuge`, in each `yugam`, epoch, god will manefest to interpret the good and evil.

No body knows, it could be advani.

regards

jay

Indianisation of Muslims, Christians must: Sudarshan

Dehradun, March 8 (PTI)

RSS chief K S Sudarshan has said that ‘’Indianisation of Islam and Christanity’’ is a must and that Indian Muslims and Christians should severe links with Mecca and the Vatican and become ‘swadeshi’.‘’The time has come now when both Muslims and Christians who are living in India should Indianise their religions. They should severe their links with Mecca and the Pope and instead become swadeshi,`` Mr Sudharshan said at a function in Hardwar, 50 km from here, last night.

He said even if Muslims and Christians did not ``consider`` Lord Ram and Lord Krishna as ‘’their gods’’, they should give ‘’due respect’’ to Indian ethos and religion.Condemning the vandalism of Buddha statues in Bamiyan by the Taliban, he said: ‘’They (Taliban) are doing what the first Mughal emperor Babar did in India.’’‘’I don`t see much difference between Babar and Taliban,’’ the RSS supremo said

from deccan herald 080301

Farzana #125:

``(An aside: It is not possible even within the more stringent confines of other religions like Christianity (the number of churches and evangelical movements will bear this out), or Islam (the Barelvis and Wahabis even fight over whether visiting mausoleums is right nor not), or Jainism (the Shwetambara and Digambara fight is to be seen to be believed), or even Buddhism (which though small is so spread out in its outlook, from the Tibetan – Hollywood version! – to the Japanese and Chinese, with the Karmapa issue thrown in).``

I absolutely agree. I think it is innate nature of human beings to divide into groups of ``us`` and ``them``. It could be in terms of race, religion, nation, caste, football clubs whatever. The lesson for Indians from the current sectarian violence in Pakistan is that even if you wipe out one type of difference (religion), other types will keep cropping up - sect, language, region etc, dividing us into ``us`` and ``them``.

As you said, no religion, no matter how new or how small has been free from this type of divisiveness.

On the other aspects of your message:

I dont think Ravana is revered in the South. But he has a more balanced image in Tamil. In Kamba Ramayanam, the Ramayan written by the great Tamil poet Kamban, he is portrayed as a great Tamil king (don`t know if Tamils were in Lanka then!) and a brahmin (son of a sage), well versed in slokas and literature, cultured etc, with several virtues...

However, there is a school of thought that portrays the Ramayana as an Aryan vs Dravidian war, with the dark skinned Dravidians being portrayed as evil rakshashas based in the South...

The zillion gods stuff I think is an exaggeration... nobody worships a zillion gods... Hindus have worshipped nature, the sun, the moon, mountains, wind, fire, earth, trees, animals etc and treated them as gods... each one has been given a name; hindus have also given their gods human like qualities with accompanying virtues and vices... the gods are not all-powerful and are constantly at battle with the demons who sometimes beat them, until the gods are rescued by a GREATER power (Vishnu, his avatars etc)... the gods have the same failings as humans - lust (Indra is a famous example), anger, fear etc. Maybe something unique is that there are both male and female gods (that should be goddesses) - haven`t seen that in other religions :-)

My understanding is that in Hindu philosophy, the all powerful, all knowing One is formless, without beginning, middle or end, and there is only one Brahman (not to be confused with brahmin!)... my understanding is also that there are many ways to achieve perfection/ enlightenment/ nirvana/ whatever, depending upon one`s abilities - it could be through bhakti/faith/devotion, through intelligence, through work/karm/duty (akin to work is worship) etc. Since not everyone has the `intelligence` to concieve of and concentrate on the formless One, you have the stories, various gods, rituals etc created to help achieve this through faith.

In response to: 128



This is all wrong and isn`t any better than any

relegious fanataic walking on the face of this earth. These relegions have already been Indianised (you don`t need to worshid Shiva or

any other good to Indianise yourselves) Islam in Arabia and in Indian sub-contenet are quite diffreent now.

As seen from the first Slip,

In response to Amitg (Reply # 121)
Dear Amit:

Thanks for the link:
http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20010312/edit.shtml#ba

I am sympathetic to the editorial because the destruction of any shrine anywhere must be, at least, deplored. I, however, would like to submit:

(1) The word “Barbarians” in the title of the piece is too strong. It may lead to additional reactionary behavior by some, if not most, Talibans. This phrase may also annoy many Muslims around the world.

(2) The claim that Afghanistan, or a part of it, was “a part of the world that was once India” is somewhat romantic in a modern sense.

(3) It is also debatable whether the destruction/vandalism of the Buddhist relics is Islamic or unIslamic. Strong arguments can be made for either position based on Islamic/Muslim belief-system (including teachings), history, and politics.

(4) The editorial has unnecessary linked the history of the Bamiyan statues with the “Arab” invasion of Alexandria and the burning of its great library. Such one-sided reminder is a part of the so-called orientalist project. It also one-sidedly reinforces the clash of civilization thesis. In a nutshell, it is very dangerous to read non-recent history in light of contemporary ideologies and worldviews. Also remember, how history is written – for example, compare Golwalker, B.R. Nanda, Sumit Sarkar, and Ashish Nandy.

(5) Any situation in Afghanistan needs to be viewed in terms of the social, economic, and political history of Afghanistan vis a vis her relations with the rest of the world. In this sense, Afghanistan in itself is an international political issue that needs to be dealt with politically but sympathetically, amicably, and peacefully.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re Anamika # 109

No Doubt Pakistani ``Technical Advisors`` are present within Taliban formations. These ``Advisors`` are not ``active duty`` personnel, but are ``EX``.

Pakistan`s economic imperative in Afghanistan remains: calm on Pakistan-Afghan Border and control over the Northeast, North and Northwestern border. A deal of some sort will be made on the issue of Kashmir with the Indian, additionally, it seems, the Indian will be offered access to central Asian markets, provided it will cooperate in withdrawing support from NA and agree to accept hydrocarbon via Turkmenstan.

Be sure the Iranian will continue to be a thorne in the side. Which means that Afghanistan will continue to bleed, but more manageably. Iranians want to be able to control the route to the Central Asian market and reexert a strong influence in Kabul and kandahar. Pakistani investment of Blood and Treasure is not amenable to such Iranian designs, however accomodation is possible, should the personal divisions in NA become aggravated.

Sultan Qabous of Oman will soon be in Pakistan. This is significant. Sultan Qabous is a partner in an economic scheme that envisioned a direct pipeleine between Oman and India to feed the Dhabol plant and others like it along the Arabian sea coast of India. The pipeline is not economically viable given the depths of the Arabian seabed. Therefore; a pipeline, between Oman and Pakistan with an overland route to India. Americans like this idea better than providing an outlet to Iran. The two big prizes in Asia, at present, are India and Central Asia.

You will note that Mr. Gen. Musharaff, continues to point to the geostrategic location of Pakistan as a source of it`s continued importance within Western security architecture in the Gulf/South/Central Asian equation.

On Baluchistan, again, the Omani with the assistance of Mr. Mcfarlane of the Bush administration had sent several delegations to Pakistan (arranged by Hassan Associates) along with seismic data by impress upon the Pakistani the magnitude of the reserves available off it`s Makran coast. Pakistan government of the time sent them packing home. On his trip to New York last year, Mr. Gen. Musharaff again met with Mcfarlane. Sultan Qabous also has a $10 Billion plus investment in a pipeline company in Russia that seeks to build a pipeline to carry Kazhstan oil to markets in Europe and Asia. The Europe part of the pipeline is pretty much a dead issue as the Russian insist the Kazh use their pipeline.

The sector to recieve the largest foreign investment in Pakistan is the Oil and Gas sector. India is the market they are aiming at. Should this come to pass, present relations between Pakistan and India will be a thing of the past, in quick time. International capital is not about risk investment, return on investment in India must be secured. International order is unable to bestow on India regional and then great power status should Kashmir be allowed to continue to be a festering wound, international public opinion will not allow it. Pakistani geostrategic location will become meaningless.

The Baluchi Sardars, like the Sardars in Iranian Baluchistan and Sistan before, have begun to make demands of the foreign companies that they pay them protection money and a piece of the action (5%) off the top. Indeed the saga of Pakistans agony at the hands of the feudals is about to enter a new, more bloody chapter. brace yourselves.

Re Sigalph236 # 124

I would remind you that when the ``All men are created equal..`` was penned, slavery flourished, African were equal to 2/3 of a European person. Nearly a hundred years later, a civil war was fought, ostensibly to free the slaves. the African was then in many States not allowed to vote. Women got the vote just this century and there still exists a number of ills that organizations such as NAACP and feminist movements oppose. Moral: evolution is possible, agitation will bring it about.

Afterall the Indian constituition has declared the caste system invalid, widow burning is against the law. Can one honestly say, that these ills has disappeared from society? No!, but it would be honest to say, people of goodwill are working on the problem. The same is true with the Taliban movement. Just wait till it becomes a functioning government.

``Maybe, being originators of traditional sword dances and camel races under GE lit skies, with their cheerleaders, comprising of Saudi princess, wearing Victoria’s Secret’s latest wonder bras and panties under their official Dracula costumes, the Saudis feel a lot more cultured since they followed Lawrence of Arabia out of the desert into Damascus``

What is this supposed to mean? A crime to wear Victoria Secret? How is this related to the topic? You are just rambling, and mumbling. So you mean if Afghanistan decided to kill all its non-muslim citizens, no one has any right to say anything? If no one criticized anyone, how will this world run? Than that way no Maulvi or scholar will be able to preach, because they are not perfect themselves, and they also sin. Dumb ass.

Afsand #114 If you really believe in what you write, why did you not walk across to Afghanistan to be with your Taliban heroes, rather than crossing to the other part of the world to California? I guess the prescription you provide is meant for others, not yourself.