Lets Destroy The Bamiyan Buddhas!

Re: ``hinduism``

``WHat you said is true and amazing for those who are used to the 3 big relegions of the world to understand that how come RAVAN is hero and worshiped in south and RAM in North and still both are hindus``.

Firstslip,

I pondered over what you said in the above paragraph and here is what i think. I would not go to the extent of saying Ravana is worshipped in the South though this is a common perception in the North. Ravana is better understood in South and certainly not hated as much as he is in the north. It would interest you to know (i know i am digressing here)that as per the legend, Ravana was a cousin of Kubera and was a brahmin. He was a very learned person having mastered the Vedas. Also,he was a very devout worshipper of Shiva and legend has it that he won many boons from Shiva after propitiating him. His failing was that he became very proud and thought he was invincible. In Srilanka,he is a big hero to this day.

Ms Farzana Versey,

Thanks for your post,

``Not only that, but movements like the Brahmo Samaj and Arya Samaj, and militant groups like the Bajrang Dal (Hanuman’s Army) have arisen primarily because there was an inherent dissatisfaction with this ‘way of life’ disparateness. Perhaps, some like you, do have a broader outlook and can accept it, but for the majority of Indian Hindus this is not possible``.

I agree with you when you say Brahmo Samaj and Arya Samaj arose due to the fact that some social reformers felt the need to reform the society and get rid of some social evils that had crept into the hindu society. In that respect, these were more of social reform movements and less of religious movements. In fact, Buddha preached social reform in his lifetime and told simple rules of ``how to conduct yourself``. His simple teachings appealed to so many people (since pundits of the time had a stranglehold on everything religious and made things very complicated) that Buddhism spread to every nook and corner of India. Buddhism really started as a social reform movement and later became a seperate religious movement with a big following.

``Bajrang Dal`` is not a reform movement but political buffonery at its best. Nobody except some in the cow belt takes them seriously. You will find that those who do not have a big political base (another eg Shiv Sena) are usually most vociferous and do not lose any opportunity at political gimmicry.

I agree with you that the different castes are a curse on the hindu society as long as they seek to exploit the less previleged. Please remember that the intensions of early settlers in dividing the society was different. People could move from one caste to the other (except the ``shudras`` who comprised,in those days,of prisoners of war). Valmiki,the author of `Ramayana` and Vyasa,the author of `Mahabharatha` both belonged originally to the so called ``low caste`` but were accepted as brahmins due to their scholarly nature (brahmins in those days were pious,scholarly people spending most of their time in studies and worship of god;alas,no more so). Caste structure became rigid much later and ended up exploiting the less previleged. That is where it stands today. I feel that while caste will never be removed from India (in India,people,regardless of which caste they belong to,are proud of it and flaunt it at every opportunity)it can be made irrelevant by legislation and empowerment of the underprevileged.Something like this is already happening in many parts,though this will take a long time to bear fruits.

``But even the five Shankaracharyas cannot come to an understanding over a simple temple construction issue. Just when a solution is round the corner, some sadhu comes up with a new version. To many of us this is the disappointing aspect. We feel let down after having been made to believe that Hinduism is dynamic and not theocratic``.

Ms Versey,

It would be best if the Shankaracharyas stayed out of this. BJP and some other political parties have tried to rope them in to make their case more popular and acceptable. This is unfortunate. As far as i can remember, Shankaracharyas had scrupulously stayed away from politics in the past and therein lies the strength of this religion. Babri Masjid,which was a non-issue,was made into a politico-religious issue by Advani to counteract V.P. Singh`s attempts at dividing hindu votes through Mandal commission. All this only for votes. The matter is with the court. This problem though has been given a religious twist (to garner hindu votes,which are otherwise divided on caste lines)is really a political problem and needs to be solved either by negotiations betweeen the 2 communities or by a supreme court decision. In this regare, it is heartening to know that the muslim community has said that it will abide by the court decision.

Sorry for the long post.What the heck, it is a weekend.

sridhar

Re:Reply #: 129

Layman,

Thanks for summing up the essence of hinduism so nicely. My reference to a ``zillion gods`` was only metaphorical. I really understood image worship only after reading the spiritual classic ``The autobiography of a Yogi`` by Swami Yogananda. Since meditation is an essential aspect of worship in hinduism, one needs an image (in which one believes in)to meditate. You cannot meditate in vaccum. Those who have attained God (here i will mention Ramakrishna Paramahamsa`s name) started out with image worship and later on attained the stage where they perceived the formless absolute who we call ``God``. The same god who is really without form can assume any form and that is how hindus worship Him,in many forms.

sridhar

Statues, sacred books, holy cows, impure animals, vested interests, ideals . . . most evrything was destroyed during the Gujarat earthquake too.

What remained was food, sex and shelter.

Did I hear somebody mention the Church and the Mayas? Oh no, those were the discoverers, right?

So, what is wrong with history then?

``So what is YOUR definition of a kaafir? Pray tell.``

I don`t have any. God will decide that on the Day of Judgement.

According to you Shias and Qadianis are also kafirs. Just for that you should be given extra chittars.

Hello everyone!!

I`ve been visting chowk for a long time now and frankly addicted to it.

Could not help pitching in a few thoughts of mine after reading rsridhar`s # 168 & 169.

Sridhar, i have been trying to study the evolution of religions and the causes of conflicts between themselves. Here`s what I think of Hinduism as compared to the organized religions of the World.

First, there is no equivalent word for religion in Sanskrit or Hindi either. The word Dharma which has come to mean religion in the modern context meant an individual`s duty towards society and family in thre ancient days. Hinduism is more a way of life not espousing one and only one way to reach God. The very foundations of this culture was founded by a multitude of sages and incarnations, as opposed to one porphet/ son of God/messiah. This one fact alone in my view renders Hinduism tolerant ( not anymore I guess under the influence of VHP). Why? Coz so many voices cannot speak the same philosophy or theories. From antiquity every theory about reaching God or enlightenment has been looked upon with great interest as yet another way. I am using the word theory, because of the realization that God cannot be expressed by anyway, let alone in a book. In Gita too, Krishna speaks of many forms of Yoga (ways of unting with God) and coaxes Arjuna to follow what is best suited to him. Hence the absence of words like heathen/kafir in Sanskrit or other regional languages in India. With so many ways available to mankind, and the scriptures (more than a few hundered in number) not ridiculing any one of them, India saw a flowering of spiriualism unseen anywhere in the World. We know today of Sankhya yoga, Gyan yoga, karma yoga, hatha yoga to name a few. In the same vein, a Hindu lloks upon the organized religions as also possible ways of unting with God (again, discounting the last 20 years of zeal). But when spiritualism is confused with the laws laid down in the organized religions (which were more valid in the past, then now), we start having problems. I see the most beautiful separation of such laws from spiritualism in China and India. In China specifically, Taoism deals with spiritualism and confucianism with social do`s and don`ts. It does not surprise me that as opposed to the three great organized religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and jainism have not waged religious wars on each other. When you are constantly taught that yours is not the only right way, there is no scope for a fight.

I am still trying to figure out the origins of ``This is the only right way`` and others are heathens in the three organized religions.

From what little I`ve read atleast at the time of inception this feeling was absent in the 3 organized religions as well. In Islam atleast there was a lot more openness until 12th/13th century A.D.

I hope to organize my thoughts better next time.

Till then

Adios

re harish 153

You got it all wrong pal. Actually here is the truth:

If an interst group supports Republicans, it is special interest but if it supports Democrats it is public interest.

The Democrats can force union members to fork up their dues-that is standing for the working people. Republicans can get contributions from CEOs-that`s catering to the rich.

Democrats can support killing unborn kids-that`s choice. Republicans can support school choice-that`s anti-children policy.

The average individual contribution to the Democratic National Committee is approximately the same as the RNCs-but the Republicans are party of the rich.

The richest five zipcodes in America were all carried by Al Gore-but the Democrats are party of the poor.

The richest five senators in the Senate are all Democrats (Rockefeller, Kerry, Kennedy, Corzine, Kohl) but the Democrats are the party of the underprivileged.

The only sitting Senator who was Grand Dragon of the KKK is a Democrat, but Linclon`s Republican Party is the party of bigots.

See, my friend, you have to re-learn logic and math. Perhaps a public school would be a good place.

My deepest heartfelt condolences to the relatives and friends of the Bamiyan Buddhas. They had so much to offer. One was learning how to walk the walk, and the other how to talk the talk.

But they are in a better place now. This mad mad world was no place for them.

Amen..

“Mulla Mutawakkil [Afghan foreign minister] told a news conference after the meeting that he informed Kofi Annan that the decision to demolish the statues was not taken at the jerk of the pulse and emphasised that the action was after thorough deliberation in the light of edict based on Islamic Shariat” (Dawn, March 12, 2001).

My comment: It is a shame that Talibans have destroyed the statues. What did they gain or loose? Only time will show. This destructive action has, however, reinforced my view about the inadequacy and unwarrantedness of a theocratic state/government. What lessons we Pakistanis can learn from this event? In my view, don`t let the Mullahs or Neem-Mullahs acquire the power to control our lives.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

re rajanjua

``So what is YOUR definition of a kaafir? Pray tell.``

I don`t have any. God will decide that on the Day of Judgement.``

My friend, how wrong you are! Mullah Omar, Imam Ghazzali, the Jamaat, and Asif Naqshbandi are Viceroys of God. What they say is His verdict. How stupid of you to wait till the Judgement Day!

rajajanjua,

no not ALL shias......definitely all qadianis...

if sticking to the haqq means taking chittars [or even worse] i would be willing to take them insha Allah. what is this miserable world compared with the Next World (for the believers)?

u need to get off your self-righteous ``i can read english so I don`t need to follow the scholars of islam`` attitude and actually find out what islamic aqeedah entails. for your own good in this world and esp. the Next

finally, PLEASE do not write my name (or that of mullah omar or the deobandi jamaat) in the same breath as the exalted, the great, the veritable proof of islam, his excellency, shaykh al mashaik, hazrat imam abu haamid al ghazzali (may allah be pleased with him!)--i (and they) am/are not worthy even to carry the shoes of the blessed Imam and Sufi (though carrying the shoes of such an exalted person would be a great honour).

btw, i am not a follower to the ideology of mullah omar and the taliban as i keep on repeating here but no one listens...

Re: scout #174

``My deepest heartfelt condolences to the relatives and friends of the Bamiyan Buddhas. They had so much to offer. One was learning how to walk the walk, and the other how to talk the talk.``

That`s what I said after that inverted-onion-domed-mosque was destroyed.

Dear Asif:

Upon your recommendation, I went to www.hizmetbooks.org and searched for ``Kafi``r (despite my distaste for such a search). The following passage (inter alia) appeared:

“Writers of made-up interpretations becomes kafir. The Turkish Qur`an!

8 - Every bidat holder has inferred wrong meanings from ayats of Qur`an al-karim and hadith ash-Sharifs with covered meanings. Our Prophet `alaihis-salam` said, ``He who gives a false interpretation to the Qur`an according to his own mind, thought and knowledge, and who writes made up interpretations [those opposed to the interpretations which the great men of religion have prepared after learning them from our Prophet and from his Ashab] is a kafir.`` Please read the fiftieth disaster incurred by one`s speech, discoursed on in Bariqa. We shouldn`t buy or read the false books of interpretations published to make money by those who know nothing of salat and iman; we shouldn`t believe their decorated advertisements.

Source: http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Endless_Bliss_First_Fascicle/b1-8.html

The statement: “We shouldn`t buy or read the false books of interpretations published to make money by those who know nothing of salat and iman; we shouldn`t believe their decorated advertisements.”

My reply: How do we know that Hizmetbooks is a place that we should buy the books? How do we know that this site provides “true books of interpretation” even if the books are free? Why hizmetbooks didn’t identify those publishers and books that are a source of money making only, whose authors/interpretors “know nothing of salat and iman” rather than making an contestable abstract claim?

The statement: Prophet Mohammad said, ``He who gives a false interpretation to the Qur`an according to his own mind, thought and knowledge, and who writes made up interpretations [those opposed to the interpretations which the great men of religion have prepared after learning them from our Prophet and from his Ashab] is a kafir.”

My reply: What evidence is there that Prophet Mohammad said so. Even if this is true, it suggests that people were giving “false interpretations to the Quran” during his own time (i.e. when he was alive). Do we know who was giving what kind of interpretation? Is his statement universal or situated in particular contexts/events? Aren’t all interpretations a construction of human mind? How do we know that the interpretations that you or other Muslims follow aren’t in some way made up interpretations? Would you agree with the view that Prophet Mohammad wanted his followers to stop thinking and rely on the minds (however feeble) of a few? Hizmetbooks’ comment within brackets “those opposed to the interpretations which the great men of religion have prepared after learning them from our Prophet and from his Ashab” is worth pondering. Please read it again and let me/us know what it really entails. Please try to give an answer to each question based upon your own reading and understanding of the Islamic literature.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

CORRECTION (Reply # 179)

Please disregard my typos. For example, ``Kafi``r`` should read ``Kafir``.

I apologize.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Asif & Asfand

Please read ``They Changed my God`` by Anwar Iqbal. There aren`t too many people who inspire poetry. Be happy you are among them.

Take care

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/mar/12spec.htm

Rsaxena #178, ``That`s what I said after that inverted-onion-domed-mosque was destroyed.``

Good for you. You can say it till your gums bleed and your teeth fall out and your tongue ties itself into knots. :)

a truce is a truce is a truce....