In Sanity
Zehra Rizvi March 7, 2001
#1 Posted by Chotu on March 6, 2001 7:12:03 pm
Zehra,
I`ve never been to French Roast, heard about it though. Is it open 24 hrs like L`Express?
By the way, whacky article. I think I need to read it some more to figure out what is generating the negative emotions. One is only a hypocrite if they want to be. But I know it can be difficult coming from a Pakistani background - particularly for women.
Peace
I`ve never been to French Roast, heard about it though. Is it open 24 hrs like L`Express?
By the way, whacky article. I think I need to read it some more to figure out what is generating the negative emotions. One is only a hypocrite if they want to be. But I know it can be difficult coming from a Pakistani background - particularly for women.
Peace
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#2 Posted by Asim on March 6, 2001 7:20:31 pm
Whats up with all these fine upstanding well educated writers, sepcially of the female variety, on Chowk writing such macabre pieces.
Is there not anything worth writing about about the beautiful life, as opposed to the gruesome death sketches which have been hitting Chowk at an alarming rate.
Surely the well fed, foreign travelled, distinguishing Pakistanis abroad are not miserable.
Asim
Is there not anything worth writing about about the beautiful life, as opposed to the gruesome death sketches which have been hitting Chowk at an alarming rate.
Surely the well fed, foreign travelled, distinguishing Pakistanis abroad are not miserable.
Asim
#3 Posted by scout on March 6, 2001 7:48:52 pm
i shouldn`t have read this. like the weather in new york wasn`t bad enuff.
gandi bachi :)
gandi bachi :)
#4 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on March 6, 2001 8:09:27 pm
Hmmmmm....
A very happy Eid Mubarak to all Chowkies.
Ras
#5 Posted by hobbyty on March 6, 2001 8:30:51 pm
Ms. Rizvi:
Be the heroine of your own life. Don`t waste your time thinking ``this hurts so good``. If you think you`re going to regret it, that`s your signal to do it. Create some regrets, what`s life without regrets? Ride`em girlie! And please, don`t you stop writing.
Be the heroine of your own life. Don`t waste your time thinking ``this hurts so good``. If you think you`re going to regret it, that`s your signal to do it. Create some regrets, what`s life without regrets? Ride`em girlie! And please, don`t you stop writing.
#6 Posted by Zehra on March 7, 2001 1:51:18 am
chowk staff, my darling chowk staff...editing issues to point out.
the section where i go into the ``the matter is...`` each sentence has its own line. the prom queens didnt get their own line. hurry before my temporal bhai jaan comes and scolds me for sloppy editing. i can already see things in this piece that will just pinch his butt :) we all live to pinch his butt though :)
thanks for putting it up..wasnt sure if it was too much for you guys.
for he who asked, french roast is 24 hours....i just get coffee and mashed potatoes there...they give you bread with it...jannat hai.
hobbyt...ap ko nahin maloom, main aik full time raaj kumarni houn.
rizvi
the section where i go into the ``the matter is...`` each sentence has its own line. the prom queens didnt get their own line. hurry before my temporal bhai jaan comes and scolds me for sloppy editing. i can already see things in this piece that will just pinch his butt :) we all live to pinch his butt though :)
thanks for putting it up..wasnt sure if it was too much for you guys.
for he who asked, french roast is 24 hours....i just get coffee and mashed potatoes there...they give you bread with it...jannat hai.
hobbyt...ap ko nahin maloom, main aik full time raaj kumarni houn.
rizvi
#8 Posted by PM on March 7, 2001 9:17:43 am
Zehra,
I could try to comment on this piece from a literary standpoint, but would probably sound -- and be -- phony. Suffice it t say there are traces of your one-time idol here. This is compelling reading, macabre and disjointed as it was in places.
I don`t think any of your despair has solely to do with your identity crises as a Pakistani-American, though that probably seems the most likely source. You are (were?) suffering the existential angst that any sensitive, contemplative, realistic, basically uncompromising, rather idealistic, strong-enough-to-feel-one`s-vulnerability type of individual will often suffer. I would`ve added `while growing up`, but I`m not sure that ever stops. Neither am I certain in any degree of the stage I am in that process.
Maybe it`s just a realization of the realities of the world, in more than the abstract way we once ``understood`` them. It could be the start of greater awareness if handled delicately, and faithfully, without killing it with inappropriate, unrealsitic optimism. As the good Books and the Byrds,say ``There is a Time, turn, turn... to every season, turn turn...``
This to shall pass, Zehra (and maybe revist) ... But faith will lead you home.
(I`m assuming we have a common, if inarticulate notion of `faith` here)
Warm regards,
P.
I could try to comment on this piece from a literary standpoint, but would probably sound -- and be -- phony. Suffice it t say there are traces of your one-time idol here. This is compelling reading, macabre and disjointed as it was in places.
I don`t think any of your despair has solely to do with your identity crises as a Pakistani-American, though that probably seems the most likely source. You are (were?) suffering the existential angst that any sensitive, contemplative, realistic, basically uncompromising, rather idealistic, strong-enough-to-feel-one`s-vulnerability type of individual will often suffer. I would`ve added `while growing up`, but I`m not sure that ever stops. Neither am I certain in any degree of the stage I am in that process.
Maybe it`s just a realization of the realities of the world, in more than the abstract way we once ``understood`` them. It could be the start of greater awareness if handled delicately, and faithfully, without killing it with inappropriate, unrealsitic optimism. As the good Books and the Byrds,say ``There is a Time, turn, turn... to every season, turn turn...``
This to shall pass, Zehra (and maybe revist) ... But faith will lead you home.
(I`m assuming we have a common, if inarticulate notion of `faith` here)
Warm regards,
P.
#9 Posted by veeresh on March 7, 2001 9:17:43 am
I never knew Pakistani women (look, nothing to do with religion, Kashmir or beauty parlours, see?) were ``like that`` till today. I never thought Indian women were ``like that`` till I grew up (I am still 16).
Bravo lady, just goes to prove that even fellatio transcends borders. I have this great vision for peace, it consists of us importing (natch!!) colonial houris who will stand at the border between our countries giving head or giving ass . . . instead of selling guns and aircraft.
Purrfect . . .
Bravo lady, just goes to prove that even fellatio transcends borders. I have this great vision for peace, it consists of us importing (natch!!) colonial houris who will stand at the border between our countries giving head or giving ass . . . instead of selling guns and aircraft.
Purrfect . . .
#10 Posted by anNy on March 7, 2001 9:17:43 am
My dear Zehra,
``My Amee to my Abbu: Bechari ka kya karengay? Abbu to Amee: Shadi. Amee to Abbu: Be serious. Abbu to Amee: Shadi.``
For me there was a point when I quite enjoyed these conversations…I reveled in them…my ``wierdness``..i`m different u hear? Not like all these other stoopid lil gurls who`ll dress up for prospective muminlaws..such losers really..and besides I`m a helluva lot gorgeouser…then there came a point when I realized there really was no way out..i tried hard..so hard to get what it takes..to fit the mould..to make them happy, maybe..but so deep-rooted it was that inspite of giving it all I had I could not..now I just feel sad...all the time...amma and abba...these are beautiful people and they deserve better..a better offspring..amma no longer bothers telling me about how nice looking the latest rishta is or how rich or what lovely ivy league heez from..she just looks at me sadly before telling the lady on the line that no..the girl is not ready..at 19 that`s still okay…5 months from now when im 20 it`ll be but another story…but all of this doesn`t really matter..what matters more to me at this point is my amma and abba…that they after all the budtameezee, swearing, lieing, disgracing, fighting they still love and pray..and they hurt
``all she`s done for me, the pains I`ve taken to do the opposite, yet she loves and prays for me. God bless her``
u`ve put it better..may He bless them all
``I`ve painted my toenails red. I like it. They look sexy. My mother will try hard to take it all off though before sending me off to God. Red never comes off properly``
I took it off after abbaz 2 week agony got the better off me..its peeking from under the bed next to the green pringle ka dabba as I type
``The matter is that I was born Muslim and never got to decide.``
Is that really a matter for you? I know I tried to make it one..i questioned a lot of things..zabardastee ka at times..but at the end of the day I realized that all those majlises and Quranic surahs being belted out regularly at home had made my faith stronger than I would have liked..Surah e Rehman still manages to bring tears to my eyes...everytime
``A Pakistani Shia`a woman.``
Now this bit made me fall of my chair..ammaz convinced this is I writing nefarious thing under but another pseodonym..red nail color, nose ring SHIA! If you would please mail her and do the needful…and next time you`re in my part of the world you must drop in…I`m next door neighbors with all the imambargahs that there are..;o)
you told me sometime back you enjoyed my piece..it took you back..yours helps me face stuff I try hard not to..
You`re brilliant..please keep writing…
anNy hussain
annythedud@yahoo.com
``My Amee to my Abbu: Bechari ka kya karengay? Abbu to Amee: Shadi. Amee to Abbu: Be serious. Abbu to Amee: Shadi.``
For me there was a point when I quite enjoyed these conversations…I reveled in them…my ``wierdness``..i`m different u hear? Not like all these other stoopid lil gurls who`ll dress up for prospective muminlaws..such losers really..and besides I`m a helluva lot gorgeouser…then there came a point when I realized there really was no way out..i tried hard..so hard to get what it takes..to fit the mould..to make them happy, maybe..but so deep-rooted it was that inspite of giving it all I had I could not..now I just feel sad...all the time...amma and abba...these are beautiful people and they deserve better..a better offspring..amma no longer bothers telling me about how nice looking the latest rishta is or how rich or what lovely ivy league heez from..she just looks at me sadly before telling the lady on the line that no..the girl is not ready..at 19 that`s still okay…5 months from now when im 20 it`ll be but another story…but all of this doesn`t really matter..what matters more to me at this point is my amma and abba…that they after all the budtameezee, swearing, lieing, disgracing, fighting they still love and pray..and they hurt
``all she`s done for me, the pains I`ve taken to do the opposite, yet she loves and prays for me. God bless her``
u`ve put it better..may He bless them all
``I`ve painted my toenails red. I like it. They look sexy. My mother will try hard to take it all off though before sending me off to God. Red never comes off properly``
I took it off after abbaz 2 week agony got the better off me..its peeking from under the bed next to the green pringle ka dabba as I type
``The matter is that I was born Muslim and never got to decide.``
Is that really a matter for you? I know I tried to make it one..i questioned a lot of things..zabardastee ka at times..but at the end of the day I realized that all those majlises and Quranic surahs being belted out regularly at home had made my faith stronger than I would have liked..Surah e Rehman still manages to bring tears to my eyes...everytime
``A Pakistani Shia`a woman.``
Now this bit made me fall of my chair..ammaz convinced this is I writing nefarious thing under but another pseodonym..red nail color, nose ring SHIA! If you would please mail her and do the needful…and next time you`re in my part of the world you must drop in…I`m next door neighbors with all the imambargahs that there are..;o)
you told me sometime back you enjoyed my piece..it took you back..yours helps me face stuff I try hard not to..
You`re brilliant..please keep writing…
anNy hussain
annythedud@yahoo.com
#11 Posted by FarzanaVersey on March 7, 2001 9:17:43 am
Zehra, my dear:
You have just released me. From the burden of self-consciousness that I continually deny behind the façade of defensiveness that sometimes manifests itself as indignation, often as untold sorrow. I loved your poignancy, but even more your courage to be able to say it. I do so too, but I suffer from post-masturbatory guilt, so to speak. I hope you do not. Or do you??
Oh, it is never past the age of decision (you are much too young) – there is always time to make up your mind and retract and retract and relive the jerky past. “The matter is the men I loved and those that loved me. We coordinated it all wrong.” Yeah, sure!
You wrote, “I’m wearing the new shirt I bought yesterday. I’m trying it on again, to make sure I love it just as much today as I had yesterday.” Were you talking just about a piece of clothing? A shirt? A life? A person? A shared moment? A screwed-up moment? I know you are in a ‘different’ place, but we can be where we are and feel different, be made to feel like aliens, with horns, horny…whatever.
I want to kill myself, you say. I said that too. I almost did. You like your smell. I like mine too. I am always sniffing, and imagine I am already in heaven.
With feeling,
Farzana
#12 Posted by rehanhasanansar on March 7, 2001 9:17:43 am
re ROmair #274:
I thought you were simply out of touch with reality when you talk about Pakistan. I am more inclined toward a less charitable view now. Aitzaz Ahsan may not fit the mould of the traditional Chaudhry Hashmat shown on TV, yet his family owns more land than most of the so-called feudal landlords in our previous assemblies. Actually the portrait painted by ill-informed folks like you about the cruel self-serving feudal belongs to a bygone era. Land simply serves as a symbol of wealth. Most feudals are deeply entrenched into industry, beauracracy and even the military through clever allocation of capital and inter-marriages. Their new generation has been mostly educated abroad. They are one of the many sources of problems in Paksitan. Yet their nuisance is only bettered by one other institution. The guardian of our idealogical and geographical borders-The Army.
later
-sac
I thought you were simply out of touch with reality when you talk about Pakistan. I am more inclined toward a less charitable view now. Aitzaz Ahsan may not fit the mould of the traditional Chaudhry Hashmat shown on TV, yet his family owns more land than most of the so-called feudal landlords in our previous assemblies. Actually the portrait painted by ill-informed folks like you about the cruel self-serving feudal belongs to a bygone era. Land simply serves as a symbol of wealth. Most feudals are deeply entrenched into industry, beauracracy and even the military through clever allocation of capital and inter-marriages. Their new generation has been mostly educated abroad. They are one of the many sources of problems in Paksitan. Yet their nuisance is only bettered by one other institution. The guardian of our idealogical and geographical borders-The Army.
later
-sac
#13 Posted by sac on March 7, 2001 10:46:33 am
A perfect illustration of PAP meets Reality bites. Trust me my dear heady days lie ahead(pun intended).
later
-sac
P.S. PAP: Pakistani American Princess.
later
-sac
P.S. PAP: Pakistani American Princess.
#14 Posted by Urstruly on March 7, 2001 11:49:09 am
Zehra,
It is a well-penned article. Any inspiration from Noshi Gillani? I think her (life &) death caused this domino effect in lady writers to write about death, suicide, and other macabre subject matter. Is that so?
It is a well-penned article. Any inspiration from Noshi Gillani? I think her (life &) death caused this domino effect in lady writers to write about death, suicide, and other macabre subject matter. Is that so?
#15 Posted by temporal on March 7, 2001 1:58:08 pm
Dirge
from the author of From the Table
to luXsrzs (all seven of them: others kindly ignore)
...where is luXsrzs...where are they...all seven of them...anyone really?...where is 911...duck...it could be anywhere in the innards of any inner city...or out in the suburbia void...or the 911 could be farmed out to far off lands with cheap labour pools...who gives a duck...the query is where is 911 when you need it...or...really it matters the least where they are...has anyone called them yet?...the bleeding...what is that...it can’t be blood...it isn’t red...ugh...has someone called 911 yet?...where is my cellular...duck...I don’t have one...will someone please?...duck, duck, duck...why am I so leery of ducking ‘I’?...wasn’t there in Rehmat’s Pakstan...to me it spoke volumes...the I is volatile, dangerous, egoistic, hazardous, radio-active...a killer...to be handled with derisive wariness...and is invariably always mishandled...tends to run amuck...living we don’t learn to handle the handles...colloquial?...so be it...the downfall of many is the mistreatment of their I’s...eyes, too...we seldom exercise full control over...use?...no control...has more premeditated deliberate-ness about it...almost a casual death wish at times...so imperceptible yet so distinct...like animals I have been cursed...to hear what normal folks cannot...so...why cannot we duck this I?...oh, we inadvertently and unknowingly do try...my query was on a conscious level... why don’t we make an effort at least?...or hit the delete button on the ego control panel more often?...has someone called 911?...yeh kya keh rahi hay?...nahin...kya likh rahi hay...so easy it is to drown in a sea of I’s...living we don’t realise how dead we are...so...so from Ayesha’s table I rose and went to that newer sub-division of the newer city...she wasn’t there...then went to the older area of the older city...what is it with folks...is yaari only upon demand?...there I go on yet other I’s...ensconced, elevated and protected and well fed egos begging love and understanding when they need it...am sure of this.. this will be read...every word...am unsure of my response...will cross that bridge if and when we come to it...so...it is nice to be dead...you can cross frontiers and time zones instantaneously and effortlessly...saw you in the older city, uncomplaining...and others...then came back here...pain and hurts abound and attract me...so I go from pain to hurt...and digression to digression...pain to perceptions of it...the p...and loyalty, love, life...make it l... the p & l of life....it is not an accountant’s statement...it is the balance of life...our paramount individual life...digressions...they are getting to be associated...almost a trade mark...not copyrighted...interesting how most of us claim exclusivity over pains...our pains are ‘it’...they stand out... overwhelm any pain down the centuries...ugh!...as if we own the patents..... number 098765432123456789....worldwide...little do we know mother of all pains has enough off-springs to satisfy the needs of several worlds for several milleniums...we should all re-learn the fine art of reading...between the lines...what makes us think our pain is greater than others?...yours greater than hers...or his...or...greater or smaller...I suppose the intensity is what matters...affects on individuals...or the perceptions of painful effects...when we come to this realisation it becomes easier to share the pain...to deaden the effects...digression over...in that room can see all of you...sometimes together...other times separately or with others...smoke, music, small talk, animated discussions, engrossing, engrossed, bites and biting...is that innocent looking hurt you by the pillar?...or is that...who is that in the corner?... and the one over there?...in that corner...in that other city...or the one across mountains?...so when did we learn life ducks?...almost with an inaudible sigh...life heads life...haha...and moves...dissolving...perceptions in perceptions of pain...as in yours, hers, his, mine, theirs...same with loyalty...again...perceptions as in perceptions of loyalty...as in yours, hers, his, mine, theirs...same subjectiveness...then why this inability to reason and add perspective?...why this urge for the blood to flow...that is the ultimate cop out....mother of all surrenders...have you not learned the greatest lesson is to love pain to make it disappear?...not blood letting...what is taking them so long?...irony is once you learn to love pain it doesn’t hurt...but if you love love it hurts...oh how... and in how many different ways...the flow is easing a little...am not a medic...but the pale face means you are gathering your bags...damn those medics...please wait, can’t you for a few more minutes?...what is that oozing out in spurts?...it is not red...why this urge to embrace the great equalizer...that is what death is...the final, ultimate, unalterable frontier...but not so...see I went there and came back...but from experience I can tell you...living in death is dull...there are no anguishes, scars, fights, victories after death...I hate the monotony...ofcourse there may be millions enjoying their houris...but thanks not for me...I’d rather be alive...but then I was never satisfied here either...so it may well be all conjectural...the meaning is always elusive...whatever it is...just beyond grasp...kuch samajh nahiN aata....jaisay yeh paRRhnay kay baad hum ko kuch samajh nahiN aata... and hopefully tumko bhee...and how...and having experienced peace I cannot recommend it either...the ultimate nirvana is not for everyone...certainly not for a bhatakti rooh...and no...I don’t tell tales...not the same ones...crap or ghost...not for me, both...forget the shirt...it is all over the rug now...will meet sooner than July...
from the author of From the Table
to luXsrzs (all seven of them: others kindly ignore)
...where is luXsrzs...where are they...all seven of them...anyone really?...where is 911...duck...it could be anywhere in the innards of any inner city...or out in the suburbia void...or the 911 could be farmed out to far off lands with cheap labour pools...who gives a duck...the query is where is 911 when you need it...or...really it matters the least where they are...has anyone called them yet?...the bleeding...what is that...it can’t be blood...it isn’t red...ugh...has someone called 911 yet?...where is my cellular...duck...I don’t have one...will someone please?...duck, duck, duck...why am I so leery of ducking ‘I’?...wasn’t there in Rehmat’s Pakstan...to me it spoke volumes...the I is volatile, dangerous, egoistic, hazardous, radio-active...a killer...to be handled with derisive wariness...and is invariably always mishandled...tends to run amuck...living we don’t learn to handle the handles...colloquial?...so be it...the downfall of many is the mistreatment of their I’s...eyes, too...we seldom exercise full control over...use?...no control...has more premeditated deliberate-ness about it...almost a casual death wish at times...so imperceptible yet so distinct...like animals I have been cursed...to hear what normal folks cannot...so...why cannot we duck this I?...oh, we inadvertently and unknowingly do try...my query was on a conscious level... why don’t we make an effort at least?...or hit the delete button on the ego control panel more often?...has someone called 911?...yeh kya keh rahi hay?...nahin...kya likh rahi hay...so easy it is to drown in a sea of I’s...living we don’t realise how dead we are...so...so from Ayesha’s table I rose and went to that newer sub-division of the newer city...she wasn’t there...then went to the older area of the older city...what is it with folks...is yaari only upon demand?...there I go on yet other I’s...ensconced, elevated and protected and well fed egos begging love and understanding when they need it...am sure of this.. this will be read...every word...am unsure of my response...will cross that bridge if and when we come to it...so...it is nice to be dead...you can cross frontiers and time zones instantaneously and effortlessly...saw you in the older city, uncomplaining...and others...then came back here...pain and hurts abound and attract me...so I go from pain to hurt...and digression to digression...pain to perceptions of it...the p...and loyalty, love, life...make it l... the p & l of life....it is not an accountant’s statement...it is the balance of life...our paramount individual life...digressions...they are getting to be associated...almost a trade mark...not copyrighted...interesting how most of us claim exclusivity over pains...our pains are ‘it’...they stand out... overwhelm any pain down the centuries...ugh!...as if we own the patents..... number 098765432123456789....worldwide...little do we know mother of all pains has enough off-springs to satisfy the needs of several worlds for several milleniums...we should all re-learn the fine art of reading...between the lines...what makes us think our pain is greater than others?...yours greater than hers...or his...or...greater or smaller...I suppose the intensity is what matters...affects on individuals...or the perceptions of painful effects...when we come to this realisation it becomes easier to share the pain...to deaden the effects...digression over...in that room can see all of you...sometimes together...other times separately or with others...smoke, music, small talk, animated discussions, engrossing, engrossed, bites and biting...is that innocent looking hurt you by the pillar?...or is that...who is that in the corner?... and the one over there?...in that corner...in that other city...or the one across mountains?...so when did we learn life ducks?...almost with an inaudible sigh...life heads life...haha...and moves...dissolving...perceptions in perceptions of pain...as in yours, hers, his, mine, theirs...same with loyalty...again...perceptions as in perceptions of loyalty...as in yours, hers, his, mine, theirs...same subjectiveness...then why this inability to reason and add perspective?...why this urge for the blood to flow...that is the ultimate cop out....mother of all surrenders...have you not learned the greatest lesson is to love pain to make it disappear?...not blood letting...what is taking them so long?...irony is once you learn to love pain it doesn’t hurt...but if you love love it hurts...oh how... and in how many different ways...the flow is easing a little...am not a medic...but the pale face means you are gathering your bags...damn those medics...please wait, can’t you for a few more minutes?...what is that oozing out in spurts?...it is not red...why this urge to embrace the great equalizer...that is what death is...the final, ultimate, unalterable frontier...but not so...see I went there and came back...but from experience I can tell you...living in death is dull...there are no anguishes, scars, fights, victories after death...I hate the monotony...ofcourse there may be millions enjoying their houris...but thanks not for me...I’d rather be alive...but then I was never satisfied here either...so it may well be all conjectural...the meaning is always elusive...whatever it is...just beyond grasp...kuch samajh nahiN aata....jaisay yeh paRRhnay kay baad hum ko kuch samajh nahiN aata... and hopefully tumko bhee...and how...and having experienced peace I cannot recommend it either...the ultimate nirvana is not for everyone...certainly not for a bhatakti rooh...and no...I don’t tell tales...not the same ones...crap or ghost...not for me, both...forget the shirt...it is all over the rug now...will meet sooner than July...
#16 Posted by Zehra on March 7, 2001 2:02:29 pm
urstruly, nope, took the inspiration from my
own life...is noshi famous? any good?
im still alive though all those emails of DONT
DO IT ZEHRA!! are really gratifying.
farzana, guilt, kaisa guilt, kahay ka guilt? i like
what you did to the shirt...didn`t mean it but i
like it now.
PM...remind me who my idol was...i forget.
(seriously).
i don`t know if my identity has so much to do
with it as much as...helplessness.
but again, do you see that sometimes there
doesn`t have to be a nice packaged reason
why. not everything can be explained away
into something safely familiar. it can`t be all
that easy.
``this too shall pass`` well, why should it? why
not i take it apart, think about it, bathe in it, and
not just let it pass? koiee koh-koh ka game
thouri hai kay dh`kka diya and its somebody
else`s problem.
wow, i really miss playing koh koh.
thanks everyone.
rizvi.
own life...is noshi famous? any good?
im still alive though all those emails of DONT
DO IT ZEHRA!! are really gratifying.
farzana, guilt, kaisa guilt, kahay ka guilt? i like
what you did to the shirt...didn`t mean it but i
like it now.
PM...remind me who my idol was...i forget.
(seriously).
i don`t know if my identity has so much to do
with it as much as...helplessness.
but again, do you see that sometimes there
doesn`t have to be a nice packaged reason
why. not everything can be explained away
into something safely familiar. it can`t be all
that easy.
``this too shall pass`` well, why should it? why
not i take it apart, think about it, bathe in it, and
not just let it pass? koiee koh-koh ka game
thouri hai kay dh`kka diya and its somebody
else`s problem.
wow, i really miss playing koh koh.
thanks everyone.
rizvi.
#18 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on March 7, 2001 5:02:57 pm
Urstruly and Zehra,
I just wanted to let you know that
Noshi Gilani, who is a resident of the San
Francisco Bay area is thankfully still very much
alive and well and continues to remain one of
the finest Urdu poets resident in the USA.
The person Urstruly was possibly thinking of was
the late Perveen Shakir.
Ras
#19 Posted by Tidbit on March 7, 2001 8:46:01 pm
U know reading your work felt like someone had just read my mind and put it up on the site...i guess what I`m trying to say is that its by far the most brilliant piece of work that I`ve read on chowk in a long time...more so because I cud relate to it...about the shaadi bit..here`s an insightful(?) lil observation...99% of desi gals go thru the eternal `shaadi karr lo warna bhudi kunwari ho jao gi`...but if u just flick em (the rishtas) left, right and center, it`ll go away...just like it did with me (or so i believe!! hehe!tho im not a bhudi kunwari mind u =p)...on a more serious note, you`re not insane...perhaps you`re the only sane one in this fake madness! take care and keep writing...look forward to reading more stuff from you...luv, samina =o)
#20 Posted by PM on March 7, 2001 8:46:01 pm
Z,
regd my earlier remark that .. ``You are (were?) suffering the existential angst that any sensitive, contemplative, realistic, basically uncompromising, rather idealistic, strong-enough-to-feel-one`s-vulnerability type of individual will often suffer.``
I forgot to add ``looking-to-ssuck-the-marrow-of-life`` as a compound adjective up there...
Then again, maybe I subconsciously sensed some ambiguity with one of the verbs there`` :)
rgds,
P.
PS. ditto slink`s remark
regd my earlier remark that .. ``You are (were?) suffering the existential angst that any sensitive, contemplative, realistic, basically uncompromising, rather idealistic, strong-enough-to-feel-one`s-vulnerability type of individual will often suffer.``
I forgot to add ``looking-to-ssuck-the-marrow-of-life`` as a compound adjective up there...
Then again, maybe I subconsciously sensed some ambiguity with one of the verbs there`` :)
rgds,
P.
PS. ditto slink`s remark
#21 Posted by Godot on March 7, 2001 8:46:01 pm
Re: F. Zehra Rizvi and her ``In Sanity``
It`s quite noticeable that it`s ``In Sanity`` and not ``Insanity.``
``My ayah began to put mirchi on my fingers before I went to bed.``
- You should get a coke bottle.
``The matter is that I was born Muslim and never got to decide. At 23 its past the age of decision.``
- No, you don`t get to decide when you`re 5 or 10. But at 23? Many cultures, including Muslim, consider that adulthood, free to make your own decision.
``they`ll kill me.``
- Trust me, no one would. Some would say good riddance.
``I want out.``
- Please, here`s is the door. It will be someone else`s filth.
``I invite all my lovers one by one to invade me``
- Otherwise known as a gang bang.
This essay is, in true tradition of Hanif Kureishi, another piece of excrement masquerading as literature.
Wonder what the ``F`` in F. Zehra Rizvi stands for.
It`s quite noticeable that it`s ``In Sanity`` and not ``Insanity.``
``My ayah began to put mirchi on my fingers before I went to bed.``
- You should get a coke bottle.
``The matter is that I was born Muslim and never got to decide. At 23 its past the age of decision.``
- No, you don`t get to decide when you`re 5 or 10. But at 23? Many cultures, including Muslim, consider that adulthood, free to make your own decision.
``they`ll kill me.``
- Trust me, no one would. Some would say good riddance.
``I want out.``
- Please, here`s is the door. It will be someone else`s filth.
``I invite all my lovers one by one to invade me``
- Otherwise known as a gang bang.
This essay is, in true tradition of Hanif Kureishi, another piece of excrement masquerading as literature.
Wonder what the ``F`` in F. Zehra Rizvi stands for.
#22 Posted by PM on March 7, 2001 8:46:01 pm
Zehra,
By ``this too shall pass``, I mean the utter helplesness and senselessness of it all. Been there, saw it through (only to be revisited -- wake up calls??)
Sure, embrace the despair all you can,... but stop short of wallowing in it.
Things WILL start ot make sense, if not seem any more acceptable... that`s when you could say you`ve found lost and found God. But you have to find that out for yourself... beyta! :)
about the one-time idol... oh yaar... aise baate publuck maiN nahiN battana chaheyeh... uss shux ko achhi nahiN lagaygi!
rgds,
P.
slink... would you say the feeling is like mutual??
By ``this too shall pass``, I mean the utter helplesness and senselessness of it all. Been there, saw it through (only to be revisited -- wake up calls??)
Sure, embrace the despair all you can,... but stop short of wallowing in it.
Things WILL start ot make sense, if not seem any more acceptable... that`s when you could say you`ve found lost and found God. But you have to find that out for yourself... beyta! :)
about the one-time idol... oh yaar... aise baate publuck maiN nahiN battana chaheyeh... uss shux ko achhi nahiN lagaygi!
rgds,
P.
slink... would you say the feeling is like mutual??
#23 Posted by scout on March 7, 2001 8:46:01 pm
t-bhai #15, ``.what is that oozing out in spurts?``
it is the blood oozing out of my ears from my slaughtered brain while i was reading your post.
apkay luvs meray sar kay uper say, ander say, aur kaat-tay hue guzar gaye
;)
it is the blood oozing out of my ears from my slaughtered brain while i was reading your post.
apkay luvs meray sar kay uper say, ander say, aur kaat-tay hue guzar gaye
;)
#24 Posted by latif chappu on March 7, 2001 8:46:01 pm
Rizvi:
Nicely written. Too disjointed for my taste though. An abstract tapestry is moving if its various strands are each strong & profound but it comes across as deliberate and contrived if the threads are weak & inane. Don`t mean to be harsh... just honest.
I did find one aspect of this piece a little disturbing though...
I think everyone`s contemplated suicide at some level. Very few actually try and a vast majority of those who do deliberately ensure failure. Then there are those that have the misfortune of having someone near & dear try and succeed... or `almost succeed`.
To those that are acquainted with it... suicide is neither romantic nor sensual. The circumstances under which a person finds the necessary conviction to slit his own wrists are extremely dismal and depressing.
Only in pretentious or hallucinogen-assisted writing do people kill themselves because `they are in love with themselves`.
You know why Ricky Fitz in American Beauty says, ``Some times there is so much beauty in life that I think I cant take it anymore``? Because he`s smoking pot!
Latif Chappu.
Nicely written. Too disjointed for my taste though. An abstract tapestry is moving if its various strands are each strong & profound but it comes across as deliberate and contrived if the threads are weak & inane. Don`t mean to be harsh... just honest.
I did find one aspect of this piece a little disturbing though...
I think everyone`s contemplated suicide at some level. Very few actually try and a vast majority of those who do deliberately ensure failure. Then there are those that have the misfortune of having someone near & dear try and succeed... or `almost succeed`.
To those that are acquainted with it... suicide is neither romantic nor sensual. The circumstances under which a person finds the necessary conviction to slit his own wrists are extremely dismal and depressing.
Only in pretentious or hallucinogen-assisted writing do people kill themselves because `they are in love with themselves`.
You know why Ricky Fitz in American Beauty says, ``Some times there is so much beauty in life that I think I cant take it anymore``? Because he`s smoking pot!
Latif Chappu.
#26 Posted by perfidy on March 8, 2001 12:19:16 am
rizvi
your public is wonderfully tolerant. they forgive everything except genius.
your public is wonderfully tolerant. they forgive everything except genius.
#28 Posted by ylh on March 8, 2001 12:19:16 am
Asim Hayat,
Pakistani Intellectuals are representative of the disappointment that our society has faced for the last 2 decades. Most of them are now just capitalizing on this disappointment, cashing their cheques...
The Pakistani Nation and the Nation-state, faces a dire crisis... but the threat is not from the outside, but from the inside... constantly depressing drivel that the so called Pakistani Intellectuals vomit on this board is most alarming.
These ``meaningless`` stories, written to show the world that ``I am a creative person``... are indicators... of a national psyche... we have nothing better to do but think up rubbish.
-Yasser Hamdani
Pakistani Intellectuals are representative of the disappointment that our society has faced for the last 2 decades. Most of them are now just capitalizing on this disappointment, cashing their cheques...
The Pakistani Nation and the Nation-state, faces a dire crisis... but the threat is not from the outside, but from the inside... constantly depressing drivel that the so called Pakistani Intellectuals vomit on this board is most alarming.
These ``meaningless`` stories, written to show the world that ``I am a creative person``... are indicators... of a national psyche... we have nothing better to do but think up rubbish.
-Yasser Hamdani
#29 Posted by rozaiba on March 8, 2001 12:19:16 am
After reading this, it seems as if only a female can truly depict the tearing up of the lumpen fabrics of social order/behaviour- particularly that of the immigrant american community which claims to be secure but is acting defensively simultaneously.
Thankfully the piece did not end up glorifying it all.
Thankfully the piece did not end up glorifying it all.
#30 Posted by PM on March 8, 2001 12:56:19 am
re. Yasser, #28
Get a grip, will ya! This has nothing to do with Pakistan or being Pakistani.
----
Is it just me or is Yasser overplaying his Youthful Indescretion card
If you`re seriously gonna make any inroad into the Pak politcal machinery, hope you lose some of that sophomoric attitude... remember, a man with many times your achievement, much-admired, and half your smugness still didn`t win didly at the polling booth. If there`s anything the Pakistni voter hates more than an incompetence, it`s probably arrogance.
So, my sincere advice to you is to try and accept that there are areas of experience you can`t relate to...and that is no reason to fear and deride them.
good luck...
rgds,
PM
Get a grip, will ya! This has nothing to do with Pakistan or being Pakistani.
----
Is it just me or is Yasser overplaying his Youthful Indescretion card
If you`re seriously gonna make any inroad into the Pak politcal machinery, hope you lose some of that sophomoric attitude... remember, a man with many times your achievement, much-admired, and half your smugness still didn`t win didly at the polling booth. If there`s anything the Pakistni voter hates more than an incompetence, it`s probably arrogance.
So, my sincere advice to you is to try and accept that there are areas of experience you can`t relate to...and that is no reason to fear and deride them.
good luck...
rgds,
PM
#31 Posted by krashid on March 8, 2001 2:30:41 am
Asim Hayat #2
What literauture you expect from a certain category of people.
Empty life and whatever life presents pen it down without thinking.
Or it is probably a cultural crises of women first time exposed to a liberitarian society. In that case although it is not creative writing but depicts the life in better way.
I agree with you that life has many manifestations even in America for all sorts of Pakistanis. On Chowk life has only one manifestation.
If you blame chowk staff, that is bad. Jawahara has written to my reply already that it is the choice of Chowk staff. And I have absolutely no plan to refute this claim.
What literauture you expect from a certain category of people.
Empty life and whatever life presents pen it down without thinking.
Or it is probably a cultural crises of women first time exposed to a liberitarian society. In that case although it is not creative writing but depicts the life in better way.
I agree with you that life has many manifestations even in America for all sorts of Pakistanis. On Chowk life has only one manifestation.
If you blame chowk staff, that is bad. Jawahara has written to my reply already that it is the choice of Chowk staff. And I have absolutely no plan to refute this claim.
#32 Posted by Urstruly on March 8, 2001 9:03:12 am
Ras Siddique
No I am talking about Karachi`s own poetess, Noshi Gillani. She died of a heroine overdose in 1995/6. It is also said that it was suicide. Her life & death later was glorified and now it is portrayed as a symbol of the plight of intellectual woman in Pak.
Unfortunately I do not have any poetry at this time to share at this time. I like her poetry
So we are talking about two different people.
No I am talking about Karachi`s own poetess, Noshi Gillani. She died of a heroine overdose in 1995/6. It is also said that it was suicide. Her life & death later was glorified and now it is portrayed as a symbol of the plight of intellectual woman in Pak.
Unfortunately I do not have any poetry at this time to share at this time. I like her poetry
So we are talking about two different people.
#33 Posted by ylh on March 8, 2001 10:23:37 am
PM
The comment was in response to Asim Hayat... it was not particularly intended at F Zehra Rizvi, who is an American.
I personally liked the story... hence my earlier comment
``Disgusting as ever, good job.``
sincerely
YLH
The comment was in response to Asim Hayat... it was not particularly intended at F Zehra Rizvi, who is an American.
I personally liked the story... hence my earlier comment
``Disgusting as ever, good job.``
sincerely
YLH
#34 Posted by PM on March 8, 2001 10:55:43 am
Yasser:
re. ``Disgusting as ever... good job``
Good hedging! :-)
If I am to believe your #33, I have to find a way to ignore #28, or indeed convince myself that ``these `meaningless` stories`` and other references to ``drivel`` didn`t include the current piece.
rgds,
PM
re. ``Disgusting as ever... good job``
Good hedging! :-)
If I am to believe your #33, I have to find a way to ignore #28, or indeed convince myself that ``these `meaningless` stories`` and other references to ``drivel`` didn`t include the current piece.
rgds,
PM
#35 Posted by Zehra on March 8, 2001 11:29:20 am
yaar, yasser, that hurt the most...mujhe
american keh kar out the window kardiya.
that is the whole problem you see...i am and i
am not. they ask over here, do you go back
home often? back home ( pakistan) they dont
accept me as one of theirs. that whole shpiel
on take your foreign ideas out of here you
arent one of us is what pakistani`s will say to
me..not umreekans. (sac, so you see the PAP
comment need not apply to me...god waht a
horrible term that is)..
im not saying that i can waltz in and pretend to
know all it takes to be a pakistani living in
paksitan but god, when i do come home how
about listeneing instead of assuming foreign
bred, no good.
most everyone has assumed that im having
identity issues in the states...been there, done
that. i live in nyc, immigrant center...i ride my
exocticness for all its worth.
hope this is making sense...im heavily
medicated ( no, not prozac, tylenol cold and
flu)
rizvi
american keh kar out the window kardiya.
that is the whole problem you see...i am and i
am not. they ask over here, do you go back
home often? back home ( pakistan) they dont
accept me as one of theirs. that whole shpiel
on take your foreign ideas out of here you
arent one of us is what pakistani`s will say to
me..not umreekans. (sac, so you see the PAP
comment need not apply to me...god waht a
horrible term that is)..
im not saying that i can waltz in and pretend to
know all it takes to be a pakistani living in
paksitan but god, when i do come home how
about listeneing instead of assuming foreign
bred, no good.
most everyone has assumed that im having
identity issues in the states...been there, done
that. i live in nyc, immigrant center...i ride my
exocticness for all its worth.
hope this is making sense...im heavily
medicated ( no, not prozac, tylenol cold and
flu)
rizvi
#36 Posted by ferozk on March 8, 2001 12:16:46 pm
Re: Zehra
The article seemed like a dream sequence...interesting...almost real...but will it matter when I wake up?
Ciao!
The article seemed like a dream sequence...interesting...almost real...but will it matter when I wake up?
Ciao!
#37 Posted by ylh on March 8, 2001 8:12:37 pm
Zehra,
Pakistanis are usually very accepting to those who accept them. In any event, I heard you are doing a
film on ``Partition`` at Upenn... Hope you present both sides of the story...
:)
YLH
Pakistanis are usually very accepting to those who accept them. In any event, I heard you are doing a
film on ``Partition`` at Upenn... Hope you present both sides of the story...
:)
YLH
#38 Posted by ylh on March 8, 2001 8:12:37 pm
PM,
In the context of what Asim and I were talking about, this current piece is also drivel and meaningless...
YLH
In the context of what Asim and I were talking about, this current piece is also drivel and meaningless...
YLH
#39 Posted by Ronin on March 8, 2001 8:12:37 pm
zehra,
nicely written, convincing in its portrayal. i saw it as a work of fiction but after reading some of your posts, perhaps not.
i have no first hand-knowledge of suicide but i kinda imagined people committing it would possess a f * * *-the-world attitude. they don`t give a damn about ice cream, or toenails painted red. nothing matters at that point. they don`t care; they`re past the point of feeling anger about prom queens and religious upbringings. that`s why the ending felt a little abrupt, a little disjointed, to me.
but that doesn`t explain suicide notes and kamikazes, so once again... i don`t know. and i guess you do. maybe i just wanted more nihilism.
and i felt you on the muslim part. it hit a little too close to home.
and a little side note to akber (#15) - you do need to say more. nice way to take a person`s emotions, pain, outlook on like - and reduce it to a four-letter-term. `ABCD.` how original.
please keep writing, zehra. don`t listen to the political yahoos and the other folks with agendas. some criticize for the sake of criticizing.
nabeel.
nicely written, convincing in its portrayal. i saw it as a work of fiction but after reading some of your posts, perhaps not.
i have no first hand-knowledge of suicide but i kinda imagined people committing it would possess a f * * *-the-world attitude. they don`t give a damn about ice cream, or toenails painted red. nothing matters at that point. they don`t care; they`re past the point of feeling anger about prom queens and religious upbringings. that`s why the ending felt a little abrupt, a little disjointed, to me.
but that doesn`t explain suicide notes and kamikazes, so once again... i don`t know. and i guess you do. maybe i just wanted more nihilism.
and i felt you on the muslim part. it hit a little too close to home.
and a little side note to akber (#15) - you do need to say more. nice way to take a person`s emotions, pain, outlook on like - and reduce it to a four-letter-term. `ABCD.` how original.
please keep writing, zehra. don`t listen to the political yahoos and the other folks with agendas. some criticize for the sake of criticizing.
nabeel.
#40 Posted by sensualpaki on March 8, 2001 8:12:37 pm
Zehra,
I really enjoyed your article. It had some very poignant and powerful passages. Some would call me a BBCD, perhaps then i can empathise with you more...perhaps I can`t. Am I a Pakistani or a Brit? I feel Pakistani but I don`t know much about Pakistan! My accent, many of my views are more British..but at the same time I have a strong belief in Islam..I have never questioned it.I thank Allah for that! But often i have been torn between my religious duties and the bright lights and fast living of british life...
Someone mentioned post-masturbatory guilt...tell me about it!
You know suicide is something I have thought about but never seriously--certainly not as seriously as you describe in your article (then again perhaps a lot of this article is fictional? Is it?)...I think life is the greatest gift from Allah...too precious to lose...and of course it is forbidden in Shar`iah...:-) (I`m a Sunni--dont know about shia law though regarding suicide...)
Oh yeh, I didn`t think that Pakistani girls gave head...certainly the girls i`ve been with haven`t (apparently I`m missing out on something REAL good!)..perhaps the girls in the USA are more liberated sexually? Or is it just you?!
:-)
Keep on writing...you are great fun to read! Actually have thought of submitting an article to chowk myself...
Anyway, I`d love to discuss with you one-to-one
email me on sensualpaki@yahoo.com
I really enjoyed your article. It had some very poignant and powerful passages. Some would call me a BBCD, perhaps then i can empathise with you more...perhaps I can`t. Am I a Pakistani or a Brit? I feel Pakistani but I don`t know much about Pakistan! My accent, many of my views are more British..but at the same time I have a strong belief in Islam..I have never questioned it.I thank Allah for that! But often i have been torn between my religious duties and the bright lights and fast living of british life...
Someone mentioned post-masturbatory guilt...tell me about it!
You know suicide is something I have thought about but never seriously--certainly not as seriously as you describe in your article (then again perhaps a lot of this article is fictional? Is it?)...I think life is the greatest gift from Allah...too precious to lose...and of course it is forbidden in Shar`iah...:-) (I`m a Sunni--dont know about shia law though regarding suicide...)
Oh yeh, I didn`t think that Pakistani girls gave head...certainly the girls i`ve been with haven`t (apparently I`m missing out on something REAL good!)..perhaps the girls in the USA are more liberated sexually? Or is it just you?!
:-)
Keep on writing...you are great fun to read! Actually have thought of submitting an article to chowk myself...
Anyway, I`d love to discuss with you one-to-one
email me on sensualpaki@yahoo.com
#41 Posted by hamidm on March 8, 2001 8:12:37 pm
........ this is scary stuff for a father of two beautiful PAPs .......... as far as i am concerned, they can do whatever they please as long as they never, ever, contemplate committing suicide or marrying a fob from rutgers ............
#42 Posted by Godot on March 9, 2001 12:57:32 am
Re: hamidm, #41
Why would someone who comes from a stable family and who has a good relationship (more like a friendship) with his/her parents would contemplate suicide?
I think there is a direct relationship between a family that is stable and caring to those who commit, or even contemplate committing, suicide. That is, I believe the more emotionally stable and caring the family, the more emotionally stable and happier its children.
What I know of you from your posts, hamidm, you have nothing to worry about. You probably are a wonderful father, and I bet your daughters adore you. And I can probably say it safely that they would not do anything to embarrass you, or would do anything that you would not want them to do. You must be instilling very good moral values in them.
hamidm, as Dominique tells the atheist Howard in `The Fountainhead`, you are very religious in your own way. Good for you.
Why would someone who comes from a stable family and who has a good relationship (more like a friendship) with his/her parents would contemplate suicide?
I think there is a direct relationship between a family that is stable and caring to those who commit, or even contemplate committing, suicide. That is, I believe the more emotionally stable and caring the family, the more emotionally stable and happier its children.
What I know of you from your posts, hamidm, you have nothing to worry about. You probably are a wonderful father, and I bet your daughters adore you. And I can probably say it safely that they would not do anything to embarrass you, or would do anything that you would not want them to do. You must be instilling very good moral values in them.
hamidm, as Dominique tells the atheist Howard in `The Fountainhead`, you are very religious in your own way. Good for you.
#43 Posted by krashid on March 9, 2001 12:57:32 am
F.Zehra Rizvi #
I would say I was carried away by reading the earlier part of your story on my previous remarks.
I have read the whole story now.
I would say. You are a born writer.
If you made up those emotions you are master. If you felt or seen so. You know the art of penning it down.
I will try to read other stories by you.
I would say I was carried away by reading the earlier part of your story on my previous remarks.
I have read the whole story now.
I would say. You are a born writer.
If you made up those emotions you are master. If you felt or seen so. You know the art of penning it down.
I will try to read other stories by you.
#45 Posted by ylh on March 9, 2001 2:39:04 am
Hamidm,
I think the venerable writer is also a graduate of Rutgers... Personally I dont know what you have against me, but I dont particularly fancy marrying the daughter of stoned-drunkard good only for criticizing and without solutions....
No offence
:)
YLH
PS I dont have an engineering degree so lay off will ya!
I think the venerable writer is also a graduate of Rutgers... Personally I dont know what you have against me, but I dont particularly fancy marrying the daughter of stoned-drunkard good only for criticizing and without solutions....
No offence
:)
YLH
PS I dont have an engineering degree so lay off will ya!
#46 Posted by slink on March 9, 2001 2:49:45 am
yasser hamdani,
lay of pakistani intellecutals whydonctha, they`re already a threatened species. if they exist at all :) finish up your nice little education at rutgers, come back here, slave away for a couple of years (or three, or four, or twenty) and them make speeches about who they are and what they do and why they`re failures. the pipe through which you voided that particular little tidbit is best used for faeces :)
godot,
sometimes people from perfectly stable homes kill themselves. sometimes 12 year old girls kill themselves because their daddy didn`t buy them eid clothes, sometimes 22 year olds college graduates kill themselves in chem labs abroad rather than come home, sometimes pakistani women get sick of life and kill themselves, sometimes pakistani men get sick of life and kill themselves. is suicide a waste? who knows. do we have the right to try and convince someone life is actually meaningful and positive when we know it isn`t so?
lay of pakistani intellecutals whydonctha, they`re already a threatened species. if they exist at all :) finish up your nice little education at rutgers, come back here, slave away for a couple of years (or three, or four, or twenty) and them make speeches about who they are and what they do and why they`re failures. the pipe through which you voided that particular little tidbit is best used for faeces :)
godot,
sometimes people from perfectly stable homes kill themselves. sometimes 12 year old girls kill themselves because their daddy didn`t buy them eid clothes, sometimes 22 year olds college graduates kill themselves in chem labs abroad rather than come home, sometimes pakistani women get sick of life and kill themselves, sometimes pakistani men get sick of life and kill themselves. is suicide a waste? who knows. do we have the right to try and convince someone life is actually meaningful and positive when we know it isn`t so?
#47 Posted by ylh on March 9, 2001 4:37:15 am
Slink,
Believe me darling, you are top of the list...
Pseudo-intellectualism will not take our nation anywhere...!
Yasser Hamdani
Believe me darling, you are top of the list...
Pseudo-intellectualism will not take our nation anywhere...!
Yasser Hamdani
#48 Posted by Neptune on March 9, 2001 9:18:00 am
Re: slink #46 and ylh #47
Who are you and what have you done with Shandana and Yasser?
Who are you and what have you done with Shandana and Yasser?
#49 Posted by Harpreet on March 9, 2001 12:48:57 pm
#128,
Who the hell do these people think they are? I mean, ideologically speaking I can understand (though not agree) with why they are hostile to Muslims given the heightened tensions between India & Pakistan, historical conflicts etc, but what threat has Christianity ever posed to India / Hinduism? And have they ever stopped to think that people may not feel a need to convert to Christianity were it not for some people`s abject status within a society? And there have been Christians in India for over a thousand years.... the ideology of these people is sheer madness...What next? A plague on Buddhists because of Dr Ambedkar`s vision? RSS are truly the soulmates of the Taleban..... peas in a pod....
regards
Harpreet
Who the hell do these people think they are? I mean, ideologically speaking I can understand (though not agree) with why they are hostile to Muslims given the heightened tensions between India & Pakistan, historical conflicts etc, but what threat has Christianity ever posed to India / Hinduism? And have they ever stopped to think that people may not feel a need to convert to Christianity were it not for some people`s abject status within a society? And there have been Christians in India for over a thousand years.... the ideology of these people is sheer madness...What next? A plague on Buddhists because of Dr Ambedkar`s vision? RSS are truly the soulmates of the Taleban..... peas in a pod....
regards
Harpreet
#50 Posted by Godot on March 9, 2001 12:48:57 pm
Re: slink, #46
I don`t claim to be an expert on why people commit suicide. In fact, I know very little about it. My point to hamidm was that a child who grows up in an emotionally stable family is unlikely to commit suicide. There is, I believe, a direct positive correlation between the family environment and emotional stability of its children. That does not mean, of course, that there is one-to-one relationship, that the line is perfectly linear; that is, every time the X goes up by one, the Y goes up by one. But I do believe that the points cluster to form a fairly positive linear line.
Now, a number of factors could drive people, who come from stable and loving families, to commit suicide. I can think of economic despair, or marriage to someone who can make their lives miserable, in the misery that one gets trapped into and there is no way out.
``sometimes 12 year old girls kill themselves because their daddy didn`t buy them eid clothes``
I would consider that an emotional problem. And probably the daddy could not buy them clothes because he could not afford it (economic despair.) Or if he could but didn`t, then he had a problem (family`s emotionally unstable.)
``sometimes 22 year olds college graduates kill themselves in chem labs abroad rather than come home``
Sounds like a family problem (family`s stable, but bad grades or failure is absolutely a no no, a disgrace.) That is my point.
``sometimes pakistani women get sick of life and kill themselves, sometimes pakistani men get sick of life and kill themselves.``
If women are treated like crap, their mates shoved down their throats by their families, then yes. Again it`s a family problem. Exactly my point. With men, it`s most probably an economic problem.
``is suicide a waste?``
Yes and No (see below.)
``do we have the right to try and convince someone life is actually meaningful and positive when we know it isn`t so?``
Again, Yes and No. Depends entirely on one`s background and the environment he/she came from and -- this is crucial -- the environment he/she would return to if prevented from committing suicide.
I don`t claim to be an expert on why people commit suicide. In fact, I know very little about it. My point to hamidm was that a child who grows up in an emotionally stable family is unlikely to commit suicide. There is, I believe, a direct positive correlation between the family environment and emotional stability of its children. That does not mean, of course, that there is one-to-one relationship, that the line is perfectly linear; that is, every time the X goes up by one, the Y goes up by one. But I do believe that the points cluster to form a fairly positive linear line.
Now, a number of factors could drive people, who come from stable and loving families, to commit suicide. I can think of economic despair, or marriage to someone who can make their lives miserable, in the misery that one gets trapped into and there is no way out.
``sometimes 12 year old girls kill themselves because their daddy didn`t buy them eid clothes``
I would consider that an emotional problem. And probably the daddy could not buy them clothes because he could not afford it (economic despair.) Or if he could but didn`t, then he had a problem (family`s emotionally unstable.)
``sometimes 22 year olds college graduates kill themselves in chem labs abroad rather than come home``
Sounds like a family problem (family`s stable, but bad grades or failure is absolutely a no no, a disgrace.) That is my point.
``sometimes pakistani women get sick of life and kill themselves, sometimes pakistani men get sick of life and kill themselves.``
If women are treated like crap, their mates shoved down their throats by their families, then yes. Again it`s a family problem. Exactly my point. With men, it`s most probably an economic problem.
``is suicide a waste?``
Yes and No (see below.)
``do we have the right to try and convince someone life is actually meaningful and positive when we know it isn`t so?``
Again, Yes and No. Depends entirely on one`s background and the environment he/she came from and -- this is crucial -- the environment he/she would return to if prevented from committing suicide.
#51 Posted by ghabroo on March 9, 2001 12:48:57 pm
Interesting piece of work ... engaging and thought-provoking!
#52 Posted by PM on March 9, 2001 2:59:56 pm
shandana:
re. ``who knows. do we have the right to try and convince someone life is actually meaningful and positive when we know it isn`t so?``
hmmmmm.... KNOW it isn`t so? Isn`t the fact that you choose to stay alive testament to your NOT knowing that for sure?
In any case, it`s hardly a question of `rights` nO?
rgds,
P.
re. ``who knows. do we have the right to try and convince someone life is actually meaningful and positive when we know it isn`t so?``
hmmmmm.... KNOW it isn`t so? Isn`t the fact that you choose to stay alive testament to your NOT knowing that for sure?
In any case, it`s hardly a question of `rights` nO?
rgds,
P.
#53 Posted by Studebaker on March 9, 2001 2:59:56 pm
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#54 Posted by FarzanaVersey on March 9, 2001 2:59:56 pm
Zehra:
Go get that hot chocolate now. You wrote about something close to your heart and well, your body too, and people have got into discussing Pak politics, unstable families,
their children’s future, their imaan, their carefully-constructed lives, born out of disdain for the all-consuming meanings have been read. But who am I to complain? Look what I did with your shirt! (Thank god you did not mind – I have this habit of prising open everything till the jholi becomes khaali and then nothing is left.) Glad you asked “kahay ka guilt?”…I am trying to explain it to someone…
Oh yeah, he has even wondered whether Pakistani women give head… “I`d love to discuss with you one-to-one,” he tells you. Hmmm….???
Take care!
F
sensualpaki (#40):
“Someone mentioned post-masturbatory guilt...tell me about it!”
Aha, I did. So, what would you like to know? And must that knowledge follow the rules of the Shariah? Ok, to start with, imagine you are lying down, mirchiless fingers, and then you feel every pore of your being open up, sweat runs down like rivulets through a storm and then just when you are about to go under, your head bobs up, and instead of wanting to come up for air and breathe, you want to drown because you have tasted the salt in the sea, and they told you that you have done namak-haraami. Your body is for others, not yourself. Enough?
By the way, I was talking about suicide :)
Farzana
PS: Don’t mind my asking, but why does a man with a Brit accent who thanks Allah and looks for a blowjob feel the need to declare both his intentions and his nationality in his nickname? Just curious, like you were…
Go get that hot chocolate now. You wrote about something close to your heart and well, your body too, and people have got into discussing Pak politics, unstable families,
their children’s future, their imaan, their carefully-constructed lives, born out of disdain for the all-consuming meanings have been read. But who am I to complain? Look what I did with your shirt! (Thank god you did not mind – I have this habit of prising open everything till the jholi becomes khaali and then nothing is left.) Glad you asked “kahay ka guilt?”…I am trying to explain it to someone…
Oh yeah, he has even wondered whether Pakistani women give head… “I`d love to discuss with you one-to-one,” he tells you. Hmmm….???
Take care!
F
sensualpaki (#40):
“Someone mentioned post-masturbatory guilt...tell me about it!”
Aha, I did. So, what would you like to know? And must that knowledge follow the rules of the Shariah? Ok, to start with, imagine you are lying down, mirchiless fingers, and then you feel every pore of your being open up, sweat runs down like rivulets through a storm and then just when you are about to go under, your head bobs up, and instead of wanting to come up for air and breathe, you want to drown because you have tasted the salt in the sea, and they told you that you have done namak-haraami. Your body is for others, not yourself. Enough?
By the way, I was talking about suicide :)
Farzana
PS: Don’t mind my asking, but why does a man with a Brit accent who thanks Allah and looks for a blowjob feel the need to declare both his intentions and his nationality in his nickname? Just curious, like you were…
#55 Posted by Zahra on March 9, 2001 3:31:35 pm
I find the hoopla on this board quite ridiculous. I am simply getting sick and tired of this prevalent mania, that each and every article on chowk ``is/ought-to-be`` a literary piece. How many chowks are there on the face of earth where people recite literary pieces? I have heard of the famous `tea-house` in Lahore -- smoke filled hall, chai kae` repeated daurs and a poet`s latest poetical work, or a writer`s latest prose would be discussed. Weirdos? Phirae`Hoae` Damagh? Probably and probably not.
The word ``chowk`` has other implications than a den for literary pieces. In my opinion, it`s a place where people share their experiences and/or inner thoughts, perspectives, outlook, ideas - in addition to that, current affairs, the demolition of Buddha, the color purple, the latest henna trends, the best hair-oil available on earth are also profound topics of discussion.
Well, if the author wants to kill herself, nothing can be done. She better go ahead with her ``i-am-on-fire`` message.
Probably, she wanted to state her inner most feelings in black and white.
Probably, there was a void that she wanted to bring up.
Probably, she wanted to relate this bleak picture to get some ideas and see if any little bee or cute gulehri[squirrel]on board could tell her something that she could take home.
Probably, this is where she lives - bleak house!
Probably, it was a vent.
Probably, it was none of the above; just words.
Whatever.
On a relatively serious note: I think Zehra is just stating her feelings and what she`s going through or went through. Simple. Now, if person x,y and z find her expression similar to theirs - well and good. If person alif, bae and pae did not feel the same, that is justified. Also, she is not the representative of all Pakistani Americans. But she is the spokesperson of her heart and mind - let`s hear her voice and disregard it; if it is not applicable. Consider it; if it is.
Godot:
``Why would someone who comes from a stable family and who has a good relationship (more like a friendship) with his/her parents would contemplate suicide? I think there is a direct relationship between a family that is stable and caring to those who commit, or even contemplate committing, suicide. That is, I believe the more emotionally stable and caring the family, the more emotionally stable and happier its children.``
You`ve very succinctly defined the basic points.
a) But there can be many other things in life that can lead a person to the dead end - suicide. During my undergrad years, I`ve read quite a few tales of suicidal attempts as well as suicidal cases at Agha Khan University. Few of my cousins, who attended the school would tell me the tragic cases of their friends and colleagues. I am not sure if those students came from stable family backgrounds, but false pride can also be a killing factor. So, here the case may be very different. Failure, disappointments, couldn`t cope with the self-expectations...may result into such extreme measures. I do not exactly remember the age of the students, but one was 19 and the others who took such a drastic step, were in the same age group as well.
b) During Nawaz Sharif`s times, a youth killed himself outside the Model Town Courts in Lahore, after attempting to reach the PM several times. He was jobless and wanted to talk about his application that never saw the day-light. Loss of Hope...Economic Reasons...Frustration.
c) Another very sad incident was of the famous writer, Col. Shafique-ur-Rahman. An ex-army man. He and his family were close friends of my Pophee Popha. I guess they were neighbours at some point and time in Pindi. He had two sons and both of them suicided[as I recall]. One I am pretty sure of, but the other also did something strange to himself. We would spend our summer vacations always at our Popho`s place in Pindi, and would get to hear about this fiasco. My brother and I had read a lot of books by the said writer in our very early childhood. Whenever the said writer would visit my aunt`s house; my brother would love to go and exchange his thoughts. I never got to know the bottom of the story -- my mother was extremely against our finding out such horrific details. His sone was a pretty young guy in his 20s, as I recollect. Apparently, there were no economic reasons involved in this picture. Then, why? The colonel himself was a very well read and humorous fellow.
In short, stable family, indeed provides a strong base. But each person is an individual. His/her family cannot go inside him/her and change their way of thinking and their feelings. My thought.
Rest Later,
The word ``chowk`` has other implications than a den for literary pieces. In my opinion, it`s a place where people share their experiences and/or inner thoughts, perspectives, outlook, ideas - in addition to that, current affairs, the demolition of Buddha, the color purple, the latest henna trends, the best hair-oil available on earth are also profound topics of discussion.
Well, if the author wants to kill herself, nothing can be done. She better go ahead with her ``i-am-on-fire`` message.
Probably, she wanted to state her inner most feelings in black and white.
Probably, there was a void that she wanted to bring up.
Probably, she wanted to relate this bleak picture to get some ideas and see if any little bee or cute gulehri[squirrel]on board could tell her something that she could take home.
Probably, this is where she lives - bleak house!
Probably, it was a vent.
Probably, it was none of the above; just words.
Whatever.
On a relatively serious note: I think Zehra is just stating her feelings and what she`s going through or went through. Simple. Now, if person x,y and z find her expression similar to theirs - well and good. If person alif, bae and pae did not feel the same, that is justified. Also, she is not the representative of all Pakistani Americans. But she is the spokesperson of her heart and mind - let`s hear her voice and disregard it; if it is not applicable. Consider it; if it is.
Godot:
``Why would someone who comes from a stable family and who has a good relationship (more like a friendship) with his/her parents would contemplate suicide? I think there is a direct relationship between a family that is stable and caring to those who commit, or even contemplate committing, suicide. That is, I believe the more emotionally stable and caring the family, the more emotionally stable and happier its children.``
You`ve very succinctly defined the basic points.
a) But there can be many other things in life that can lead a person to the dead end - suicide. During my undergrad years, I`ve read quite a few tales of suicidal attempts as well as suicidal cases at Agha Khan University. Few of my cousins, who attended the school would tell me the tragic cases of their friends and colleagues. I am not sure if those students came from stable family backgrounds, but false pride can also be a killing factor. So, here the case may be very different. Failure, disappointments, couldn`t cope with the self-expectations...may result into such extreme measures. I do not exactly remember the age of the students, but one was 19 and the others who took such a drastic step, were in the same age group as well.
b) During Nawaz Sharif`s times, a youth killed himself outside the Model Town Courts in Lahore, after attempting to reach the PM several times. He was jobless and wanted to talk about his application that never saw the day-light. Loss of Hope...Economic Reasons...Frustration.
c) Another very sad incident was of the famous writer, Col. Shafique-ur-Rahman. An ex-army man. He and his family were close friends of my Pophee Popha. I guess they were neighbours at some point and time in Pindi. He had two sons and both of them suicided[as I recall]. One I am pretty sure of, but the other also did something strange to himself. We would spend our summer vacations always at our Popho`s place in Pindi, and would get to hear about this fiasco. My brother and I had read a lot of books by the said writer in our very early childhood. Whenever the said writer would visit my aunt`s house; my brother would love to go and exchange his thoughts. I never got to know the bottom of the story -- my mother was extremely against our finding out such horrific details. His sone was a pretty young guy in his 20s, as I recollect. Apparently, there were no economic reasons involved in this picture. Then, why? The colonel himself was a very well read and humorous fellow.
In short, stable family, indeed provides a strong base. But each person is an individual. His/her family cannot go inside him/her and change their way of thinking and their feelings. My thought.
Rest Later,
#56 Posted by SaadPAslam on March 9, 2001 4:16:52 pm
This the second extremely morbid essay I have read recently coincidentally, or not, both written by a desi woman. Anyway I cant understand what seems to be the problem? Is it the conflict between what you are or have become and what you would have really wanted to be? Or is it the dual life that most desi women growing up in the USA have to live i.e. one for their families and one for their friends etc. I think you need to be honest with yourself and with people who love you, forget about fitting in, you will fit in even if you don`t try this hard, and believe me people will respect you more that way!
#57 Posted by SaadPAslam on March 9, 2001 4:16:52 pm
One more thing if you don`t like people from Bronx, stop ridding the 456.
#59 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on March 9, 2001 4:56:51 pm
Farzana #54,
I do not usually intrude but am
somewhat (remotely) interested in the outcome of
this one-on-one discussion.
(The alternative is another round of discussions
on Kashmir).
Ras
#60 Posted by sensualpaki on March 9, 2001 5:48:49 pm
Farzana,
You took my phrase ``tell me about it!`` literally--it is an idiomatic expression in England! It means that I am familiar with what you mentioned NOT that I want you to tell me about it. Like if you say, ``The Godfather is a great movie!`` and I reply, ``Yeh! Tell me about it!`` It means I agree with you... (or is that an Americanism I have picked up from watching too many films..). I guess I should say thank you for the description anyway!!! :-)
A british paki looking for head and thanking Allah at the same time? That`s how you saw it right? :-) I thanked Allah that I had never seriously considered suicide and for life being a precious gift...
As for wondering if pakistani girls gave head--(or wanting it)--I`m sure I`m not the only guy in the world who has had that thought...
And believe me, my offer of Zehra to communicate 1-2-1 was nothing to do with fellatio whatsoever!
(as for the shar`iah ruling on oral sex...from my research it seems the ulama are divided on this issue...)
:-)
My moniker? Sensualpaki--well I am of Pakistani and I can be quite sensual i think...what`s the problem?
BTW, I like your posts!
You took my phrase ``tell me about it!`` literally--it is an idiomatic expression in England! It means that I am familiar with what you mentioned NOT that I want you to tell me about it. Like if you say, ``The Godfather is a great movie!`` and I reply, ``Yeh! Tell me about it!`` It means I agree with you... (or is that an Americanism I have picked up from watching too many films..). I guess I should say thank you for the description anyway!!! :-)
A british paki looking for head and thanking Allah at the same time? That`s how you saw it right? :-) I thanked Allah that I had never seriously considered suicide and for life being a precious gift...
As for wondering if pakistani girls gave head--(or wanting it)--I`m sure I`m not the only guy in the world who has had that thought...
And believe me, my offer of Zehra to communicate 1-2-1 was nothing to do with fellatio whatsoever!
(as for the shar`iah ruling on oral sex...from my research it seems the ulama are divided on this issue...)
:-)
My moniker? Sensualpaki--well I am of Pakistani and I can be quite sensual i think...what`s the problem?
BTW, I like your posts!
#61 Posted by rsaxena on March 9, 2001 7:49:47 pm
Zehra,
This is kick-ass writing. I got so caught up in the flame wars, I forgot to read this.
Have you ever read Jack Kerouac?
This is kick-ass writing. I got so caught up in the flame wars, I forgot to read this.
Have you ever read Jack Kerouac?
#62 Posted by Godot on March 9, 2001 9:55:46 pm
Re: RSaxena, #61
``This is kick-ass writing``
Who says you are not eloquent! You put Shakespeare to shame!!!
``This is kick-ass writing``
Who says you are not eloquent! You put Shakespeare to shame!!!
#63 Posted by krashid on March 9, 2001 9:55:46 pm
F Zehra Rizvi#
I have read your other stories.
You know how to use words.
God bless you (whether you believe in HIM or not).
Life is full of frustrations and success and satisfaction also.
Life goes like that.
Everybody can be your enemy, except your mother.
I always ask my mother before making any big decision. (Whether I agree to it or not but I take her advise in the spirit of in my best interest).
I have read your other stories.
You know how to use words.
God bless you (whether you believe in HIM or not).
Life is full of frustrations and success and satisfaction also.
Life goes like that.
Everybody can be your enemy, except your mother.
I always ask my mother before making any big decision. (Whether I agree to it or not but I take her advise in the spirit of in my best interest).
#64 Posted by krashid on March 10, 2001 2:16:14 am
Godot #62
RSaxena is trying for some title on Chowk.
Such an intelliegent ape. I marvel at the genius.
He even Pees after watching PEE TV.
RSaxena is trying for some title on Chowk.
Such an intelliegent ape. I marvel at the genius.
He even Pees after watching PEE TV.
#65 Posted by PM on March 10, 2001 2:16:14 am
krashid, re. #43 and #63,
A simple sorry would have done it, yaar!
A simple sorry would have done it, yaar!
#66 Posted by sadaf on March 10, 2001 2:16:14 am
You touched so many emotions, thoughts, feelings, .. and you left them at that. you didn`t try to answer all questions, or resolve all issues. Thats why the piece works so well.
And you`re a gifted writer.. ``Well, there’s no ayah here today and no mirchi. And I hear your love is better than ice cream.``
And you`re a gifted writer.. ``Well, there’s no ayah here today and no mirchi. And I hear your love is better than ice cream.``
#67 Posted by FarzanaVersey on March 10, 2001 10:02:25 am
sensualpaki (#60):
“My moniker? Sensualpaki--well I am of Pakistani and I can be quite sensual I think...what`s the problem?”
No problem at all. If anything, lovely… I mean, I think the Taliban too are a bunch of sensual guys participating in an orgy, and a certain gentleman who comes to every Board I visit to specially point out that I get my jollies here, I even consider his obsession as a ‘crime passionale’. That is how we women with identity crises cope, after taking the Ulema’s divided opinion into consideration on other issues, of course. Btw, why hasn’t anyone ever asked whether Indian women give head? Sigh.
Oh, I am usually accused of finding symbols in everything – at last count I said I found snakes a sexy. And when I decide to take things literally, I goof up. I apologise for missing out on the idiomatic expression “Tell me about it!” and instead going all out to give you a blow-by-blow account (you needn’t thank me coz you didn’t ask). What to do? Engliss is not my mother’s tongue (it is pink; yea, yea, inherited it, though mine is smeared…with vanilla ice-cream). And when I travel to those parts, instead of picking up the nuances of the language, I do what the Queen does – get people down on their knees. Er…curtsy…courtesy.
“As for wondering if pakistani girls gave head--(or wanting it)--I`m sure I`m not the only guy in the world who has had that thought...”
Right you are. And if I juxtaposed “looking for head and thanking Allah at the same time”, I guess I was going by the experience of having had a long telephonic chat with this Paki in England who soon after his maghrib namaaz held forth on precisely the subject you mentioned. Of course, I do know that your 1-2-1 with Z had nothing to do with fellatio. I was just playing ball, that’s all.
“I like your posts!” … Tell me about it :)
Ras Siddiqui(#59):
“Farzana #54,
I do not usually intrude but am somewhat (remotely) interested in the outcome of this one-on-one discussion. (The alternative is another round of discussions on Kashmir)”
I always like your use of words, Ras. Outcome? Let us both wait and watch. The one-on-one is not with me, as you know.
Regarding another round on Kashmir, who’ll buy it and what should be the chosen poison? You are aware that the moment I open my mouth, a horde is ready to aim and shoot. Sometimes, I do feel like asking them, as Mae West so memorably did, “Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?” Besides, where militancy is concerned, I do not follow the standard missionary position.
Anyway, I am less ‘remotely’ interested in both the subjects than you are. Incidentally, for the first-ever time, my post was censored. The dreaded F word with all the asterisks in the right places vanished. So “disdain for the all-consuming (insert word omitted)” left me wondering when they will decide that even my name spells trouble. I can see the storm trooper having just discovered kick-ass already getting ready….or may be not. He is busy trying to find flames in the ashes.
Gosh, and here we are talking about simple oral stuff. What a life.
Zehra:
While you are still hot…with the flu…thought I’d keep the Board lubricated.
“My moniker? Sensualpaki--well I am of Pakistani and I can be quite sensual I think...what`s the problem?”
No problem at all. If anything, lovely… I mean, I think the Taliban too are a bunch of sensual guys participating in an orgy, and a certain gentleman who comes to every Board I visit to specially point out that I get my jollies here, I even consider his obsession as a ‘crime passionale’. That is how we women with identity crises cope, after taking the Ulema’s divided opinion into consideration on other issues, of course. Btw, why hasn’t anyone ever asked whether Indian women give head? Sigh.
Oh, I am usually accused of finding symbols in everything – at last count I said I found snakes a sexy. And when I decide to take things literally, I goof up. I apologise for missing out on the idiomatic expression “Tell me about it!” and instead going all out to give you a blow-by-blow account (you needn’t thank me coz you didn’t ask). What to do? Engliss is not my mother’s tongue (it is pink; yea, yea, inherited it, though mine is smeared…with vanilla ice-cream). And when I travel to those parts, instead of picking up the nuances of the language, I do what the Queen does – get people down on their knees. Er…curtsy…courtesy.
“As for wondering if pakistani girls gave head--(or wanting it)--I`m sure I`m not the only guy in the world who has had that thought...”
Right you are. And if I juxtaposed “looking for head and thanking Allah at the same time”, I guess I was going by the experience of having had a long telephonic chat with this Paki in England who soon after his maghrib namaaz held forth on precisely the subject you mentioned. Of course, I do know that your 1-2-1 with Z had nothing to do with fellatio. I was just playing ball, that’s all.
“I like your posts!” … Tell me about it :)
Ras Siddiqui(#59):
“Farzana #54,
I do not usually intrude but am somewhat (remotely) interested in the outcome of this one-on-one discussion. (The alternative is another round of discussions on Kashmir)”
I always like your use of words, Ras. Outcome? Let us both wait and watch. The one-on-one is not with me, as you know.
Regarding another round on Kashmir, who’ll buy it and what should be the chosen poison? You are aware that the moment I open my mouth, a horde is ready to aim and shoot. Sometimes, I do feel like asking them, as Mae West so memorably did, “Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?” Besides, where militancy is concerned, I do not follow the standard missionary position.
Anyway, I am less ‘remotely’ interested in both the subjects than you are. Incidentally, for the first-ever time, my post was censored. The dreaded F word with all the asterisks in the right places vanished. So “disdain for the all-consuming (insert word omitted)” left me wondering when they will decide that even my name spells trouble. I can see the storm trooper having just discovered kick-ass already getting ready….or may be not. He is busy trying to find flames in the ashes.
Gosh, and here we are talking about simple oral stuff. What a life.
Zehra:
While you are still hot…with the flu…thought I’d keep the Board lubricated.
#68 Posted by rsaxena on March 10, 2001 12:00:11 pm
Re: krashid
I think you`ve already won the ``Village Simpleton`` title on Chowk.
Now go put together your next disjointed sentence in English on the park bench.
I think you`ve already won the ``Village Simpleton`` title on Chowk.
Now go put together your next disjointed sentence in English on the park bench.
#69 Posted by Asim on March 10, 2001 4:43:35 pm
Re: Farzana`s taking the little English prick (Senseless paki) to task...
``I apologise for missing out on the idiomatic expression “Tell me about it!” and instead going all out to give you a blow-by-blow account (you needn’t thank me coz you didn’t ask). What to do? Engliss is not my mother’s tongue (it is pink; yea, yea, inherited it, though mine is smeared…with vanilla ice-cream). And when I travel to those parts, instead of picking up the nuances of the language, I do what the Queen does – get people down on their knees. Er…curtsy…courtesy. ``
Farzana,
The above is simply priceless. The paki englishman thoroughly deserves your wrath for his mindless ``bakwas``.
And what a ``sad b *a *s *t *a *r *d`` that ``little twat`` really is; BTW, that`s ``English speak`` for ``a pathetic creature`` for the less internationally travelled amongst us, in case the buffoon takes it on him to explain his Queen`s English to us peasants, once again.``Jolly Good, old girl. Got to go for me high tea now.``
``People who keep wondering if XYZ girls give head(and that too on forums), seldom get it(pun very much intended)`` (Lord Confucious, an honourary Brit)
Asim Hayat,
Chichoun ki mallian, Pakistan
``I apologise for missing out on the idiomatic expression “Tell me about it!” and instead going all out to give you a blow-by-blow account (you needn’t thank me coz you didn’t ask). What to do? Engliss is not my mother’s tongue (it is pink; yea, yea, inherited it, though mine is smeared…with vanilla ice-cream). And when I travel to those parts, instead of picking up the nuances of the language, I do what the Queen does – get people down on their knees. Er…curtsy…courtesy. ``
Farzana,
The above is simply priceless. The paki englishman thoroughly deserves your wrath for his mindless ``bakwas``.
And what a ``sad b *a *s *t *a *r *d`` that ``little twat`` really is; BTW, that`s ``English speak`` for ``a pathetic creature`` for the less internationally travelled amongst us, in case the buffoon takes it on him to explain his Queen`s English to us peasants, once again.``Jolly Good, old girl. Got to go for me high tea now.``
``People who keep wondering if XYZ girls give head(and that too on forums), seldom get it(pun very much intended)`` (Lord Confucious, an honourary Brit)
Asim Hayat,
Chichoun ki mallian, Pakistan
#70 Posted by hamidm on March 10, 2001 8:52:59 pm
... astaghfirullah! ...... i can`t believe such language coming from good muslims like asim and farzana ........ do you know that you guys are headed for jahanum in a handbasket ? ....... now, before go too far down this slippery path, let me remind you what allah told gabriel and gabriel told the prophet and the prophet told us :
[24.2] (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.
........ lest you despair - there is life after the the striping .......
[24.3] The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.
........ and they lived happily ever after .
[24.2] (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.
........ lest you despair - there is life after the the striping .......
[24.3] The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.
........ and they lived happily ever after .
#71 Posted by Asim on March 11, 2001 2:31:51 am
Re : Hamidm & good muslims
I know they are an esoteric entity; yet they do exist. For most of us it is an oxymoron, being a good Muslim that is. Yet if i do others no harm, and try to do the right thing, and obey all laws , and earn a halal living in this firangi mulk, and maintain my ``sufed-poshi``, and if my religion were not Islam but say something else. Would that mean i would still burn in the hell fires, compared to those dime a dozen Mullah who revel in their hypocrisies, who salivate at the sight of 16 yr old gals at mixed gaterings, and who offer to make nikaah between such girls and and 52 yr old men,without the slightest of ``compunctious visitings of nature``.
That all non believers in Islam are going to hell, without any sort of checkinmg, and that we despite our numerous shortcomings would get to enjoy houris with skin softer than rose petals and orifices too numerous to allow multiple orgies for the faithful, or with landhoors if one is so inclined, is sort of hard to buy.
but we have a lot of people who buy it. So the men get the beautiful boys``, and the ``Houris``. what do the women get for their having suffered abusive marriages and ingratitude, and for being taken for granted. U know it seems our biasses for discrimination, alos continue in the hereafter. From learned sources i am ionformed that good muslimahs are entitled to be reunited with their husbands. One must stop to contemplate if the said husbands are enjoying the bounty of houris, with flesh softer than rose petals, and perky breats, and numerous orifices of pleasure, what need do these have for their wives. But i digress.
Yet, despite it all, I believe in a life hereafter, and all the stuff that goes with it. Though I am not worrying about it 24 hrs of the day, as opposed to making myserlf a better person thru learning the white man`s science, and knowledge.
Sincerely
Asim
P.S Apologies for being open and honest. They say its best to let out ones inner demons from time to time.
I know they are an esoteric entity; yet they do exist. For most of us it is an oxymoron, being a good Muslim that is. Yet if i do others no harm, and try to do the right thing, and obey all laws , and earn a halal living in this firangi mulk, and maintain my ``sufed-poshi``, and if my religion were not Islam but say something else. Would that mean i would still burn in the hell fires, compared to those dime a dozen Mullah who revel in their hypocrisies, who salivate at the sight of 16 yr old gals at mixed gaterings, and who offer to make nikaah between such girls and and 52 yr old men,without the slightest of ``compunctious visitings of nature``.
That all non believers in Islam are going to hell, without any sort of checkinmg, and that we despite our numerous shortcomings would get to enjoy houris with skin softer than rose petals and orifices too numerous to allow multiple orgies for the faithful, or with landhoors if one is so inclined, is sort of hard to buy.
but we have a lot of people who buy it. So the men get the beautiful boys``, and the ``Houris``. what do the women get for their having suffered abusive marriages and ingratitude, and for being taken for granted. U know it seems our biasses for discrimination, alos continue in the hereafter. From learned sources i am ionformed that good muslimahs are entitled to be reunited with their husbands. One must stop to contemplate if the said husbands are enjoying the bounty of houris, with flesh softer than rose petals, and perky breats, and numerous orifices of pleasure, what need do these have for their wives. But i digress.
Yet, despite it all, I believe in a life hereafter, and all the stuff that goes with it. Though I am not worrying about it 24 hrs of the day, as opposed to making myserlf a better person thru learning the white man`s science, and knowledge.
Sincerely
Asim
P.S Apologies for being open and honest. They say its best to let out ones inner demons from time to time.
#72 Posted by InYourFace on March 11, 2001 2:31:51 am
Farzana:
``Btw, why hasn’t anyone ever asked whether Indian women give head?``
Because we know they do!!! It`s expected, we are the land of Kaamasutra.
PS. Prudes, take it easy.
``Btw, why hasn’t anyone ever asked whether Indian women give head?``
Because we know they do!!! It`s expected, we are the land of Kaamasutra.
PS. Prudes, take it easy.
#73 Posted by krashid on March 11, 2001 2:31:51 am
RSaxena #68
Looks like you have started to live in humans ultimately and are learning some manners.
Good for you.
Looks like you have started to live in humans ultimately and are learning some manners.
Good for you.
#74 Posted by krashid on March 11, 2001 2:31:51 am
PM#
Probably it was a feeling of guilt to comment after reading half the article in my first reply.
Only a sufferer knows the pain.
One of my mentor said to me and will remain always with me ``Although I cannot feel the pain as you, but I can help you in whatever way I can``.
Probably it was a feeling of guilt to comment after reading half the article in my first reply.
Only a sufferer knows the pain.
One of my mentor said to me and will remain always with me ``Although I cannot feel the pain as you, but I can help you in whatever way I can``.
#75 Posted by scout on March 11, 2001 5:03:46 am
Asim Hayat #71, ``From learned sources i am ionformed that good muslimahs are entitled to be reunited with their husbands.``
Oh goody! My aka, my sartaj will be reunited with me in heaven, and he`ll pick my pudgy self over those ``rosepetaled-perky-breasted-with
-numerous-orifices houris.``
I`d rather go to hell and dance with John Travolta.
Oh goody! My aka, my sartaj will be reunited with me in heaven, and he`ll pick my pudgy self over those ``rosepetaled-perky-breasted-with
-numerous-orifices houris.``
I`d rather go to hell and dance with John Travolta.
#76 Posted by rajanjua on March 11, 2001 5:03:46 am
Cuerpo de mujer, blancas colinas, muslos blancos,
te pareces al mundo en tu actitud de entrega.
Mi cuerpo de labriego salvaje te socava
y hace saltar el hijo del fondo de la tierra
Fui solo como un tunel. De mi huian los pajaros,
y en mi la noche entraba su invasion poderosa.
Para sobrevivirme te forje como un arma,
como una flecha en mi arco, como una piedra en mi honda.
Pero cae la hora de la venganza, y te amo.
Cuerpo de piel, de musgo, d leche avida y firme.
Ah los vasos del pecho! Ah los ojos de ausencia!
Ah las rosas del pubis! Ah tu voz lenta y triste!
Cuerpo de mujer mia, persistire en tu gracia.
Mi sed, mi ansia sin limite, mi camino indeciso!
Oscuros cauces donde la sed eterna sigue,
y la fatiga sigue, y el dolor infinito.
te pareces al mundo en tu actitud de entrega.
Mi cuerpo de labriego salvaje te socava
y hace saltar el hijo del fondo de la tierra
Fui solo como un tunel. De mi huian los pajaros,
y en mi la noche entraba su invasion poderosa.
Para sobrevivirme te forje como un arma,
como una flecha en mi arco, como una piedra en mi honda.
Pero cae la hora de la venganza, y te amo.
Cuerpo de piel, de musgo, d leche avida y firme.
Ah los vasos del pecho! Ah los ojos de ausencia!
Ah las rosas del pubis! Ah tu voz lenta y triste!
Cuerpo de mujer mia, persistire en tu gracia.
Mi sed, mi ansia sin limite, mi camino indeciso!
Oscuros cauces donde la sed eterna sigue,
y la fatiga sigue, y el dolor infinito.
#77 Posted by Purple on March 11, 2001 10:22:15 am
And do you know what she was wearing? God forbid I let my girls be seen in that get up! How could she?
Anyone would think they were discussing a navel baring, navel piercing little bohemian. Turned out to be an amreeka returned girl in red jeans. The words allah and rasool were whispered in the same breath as the forbidden `red`. Blasphemous, positively blasphemous.
Why doesn`t her mother stop her? She`s probably out of her control. Besides it serves her right for sending a girl abroad - to amreeka of all places. We told her. We told her it was wrong. We told her it was madness, but did she listen? No. What did she expect, but a bey sharam, bey haya (sans shame, sans modesty). Now look at her. God in heaven, she even has male friends. I saw her getting into a car with one - with my own two eyes. Will this girl stop at nothing? Has she no shame. She was at Asia`s yesterday; sitting on the takhat in her low cut kurta, with her horrible short hair. I was so upset to find my son, my only son sitting beside her. And she was laughing. With her mouth open and all and everyone could hear her. Oh it was awful - I couldn`t bear it. I told him to get up right then and there. I saw her expression. Oh, she had guilt written all over her face. She knew what she was doing, the little tart.
How will she ever marry? That`s what I don`t understand. Her poor mother must worry so. Look at her. She`s so dark; no self-respecting mother would allow her son to marry her. And those features - positively wajibi -mediocre, at best, if she`s lucky so they said.
...
Anyone would think they were discussing a navel baring, navel piercing little bohemian. Turned out to be an amreeka returned girl in red jeans. The words allah and rasool were whispered in the same breath as the forbidden `red`. Blasphemous, positively blasphemous.
Why doesn`t her mother stop her? She`s probably out of her control. Besides it serves her right for sending a girl abroad - to amreeka of all places. We told her. We told her it was wrong. We told her it was madness, but did she listen? No. What did she expect, but a bey sharam, bey haya (sans shame, sans modesty). Now look at her. God in heaven, she even has male friends. I saw her getting into a car with one - with my own two eyes. Will this girl stop at nothing? Has she no shame. She was at Asia`s yesterday; sitting on the takhat in her low cut kurta, with her horrible short hair. I was so upset to find my son, my only son sitting beside her. And she was laughing. With her mouth open and all and everyone could hear her. Oh it was awful - I couldn`t bear it. I told him to get up right then and there. I saw her expression. Oh, she had guilt written all over her face. She knew what she was doing, the little tart.
How will she ever marry? That`s what I don`t understand. Her poor mother must worry so. Look at her. She`s so dark; no self-respecting mother would allow her son to marry her. And those features - positively wajibi -mediocre, at best, if she`s lucky so they said.
...
#78 Posted by hamidm on March 11, 2001 10:22:15 am
asim
`` Would that mean i would still burn in the hell fires, compared to those dime a dozen Mullah who revel in their hypocrisies``
........ i hate to disappoint you, but the answer is ``yes``...... but from what i hear, hell seems to be one hell of a place for a fun-loving guy .... who wants to be closeted with asif naqshbandi, the tabligi jamaat, snotty-nosed boys and houris who look like anjuman and who don`t do you-know-what ?
`` Would that mean i would still burn in the hell fires, compared to those dime a dozen Mullah who revel in their hypocrisies``
........ i hate to disappoint you, but the answer is ``yes``...... but from what i hear, hell seems to be one hell of a place for a fun-loving guy .... who wants to be closeted with asif naqshbandi, the tabligi jamaat, snotty-nosed boys and houris who look like anjuman and who don`t do you-know-what ?
#79 Posted by PM on March 11, 2001 1:23:48 pm
re. rr #78
That was beautiful!
re. scout #72
That was fun-nee. Didn`t know you had a funny bone that big.
PM
That was beautiful!
re. scout #72
That was fun-nee. Didn`t know you had a funny bone that big.
PM
#82 Posted by Asim on March 11, 2001 2:58:11 pm
Re: Rajajanjua
You are hereby fined 500 points for using a foreign language in you replies, and that too without a translation.
In the future, please dont do a Mahir Mahem on us. Once is enough :)
Asim
You are hereby fined 500 points for using a foreign language in you replies, and that too without a translation.
In the future, please dont do a Mahir Mahem on us. Once is enough :)
Asim
#83 Posted by Asim on March 11, 2001 2:58:11 pm
Re: Scout
Oh goody! My aka, my sartaj will be reunited with me in heaven, and he`ll pick my pudgy self over those ``rosepetaled-perky-breasted-with
-numerous-orifices houris.``
Precisely my sentiments. The Mullah salesmen need to come up with better temptations than that for good Muslimahs. Heaven knows they have enough ``x-rated`` descriptions for the wonderful life in the hereafter replete with sexual encounters as if there is no tomorrow, for us ``Good Mulsim males.``
I distinctly remmeber the times, when Pakistanis girls used to get all dreamy eyed, whenever the name of Hazrat John Travolta was mentioned in Lahore. Of course that was before you were born Scout, back in 1980. :)
Sinceely
Asim
Oh goody! My aka, my sartaj will be reunited with me in heaven, and he`ll pick my pudgy self over those ``rosepetaled-perky-breasted-with
-numerous-orifices houris.``
Precisely my sentiments. The Mullah salesmen need to come up with better temptations than that for good Muslimahs. Heaven knows they have enough ``x-rated`` descriptions for the wonderful life in the hereafter replete with sexual encounters as if there is no tomorrow, for us ``Good Mulsim males.``
I distinctly remmeber the times, when Pakistanis girls used to get all dreamy eyed, whenever the name of Hazrat John Travolta was mentioned in Lahore. Of course that was before you were born Scout, back in 1980. :)
Sinceely
Asim
#84 Posted by rajanjua on March 11, 2001 10:24:55 pm
Re: Asim Hayat
``In the future, please dont do a Mahir Mahem on us. Once is enough :)``
Poem is by Neruda. Next time translation will follow.
``In the future, please dont do a Mahir Mahem on us. Once is enough :)``
Poem is by Neruda. Next time translation will follow.
#85 Posted by scout on March 11, 2001 10:24:55 pm
Asim Hayat #84, ``Of course that was before you were born Scout, back in 1980. :)``
HEY HEY!!! I was born in `76 and was the younger sister of a teenage girl in the eighties. I got my share of the eighties Travolta/Imran Khan mania not to mention watching ``Saturday Night Fever`` countless times.
HEY HEY!!! I was born in `76 and was the younger sister of a teenage girl in the eighties. I got my share of the eighties Travolta/Imran Khan mania not to mention watching ``Saturday Night Fever`` countless times.
#86 Posted by Zehra on March 11, 2001 11:57:23 pm
wow, this has gotton wonderfully out of hand.
where to start? i dont know if i have that much
energy.
slink, is main aik line tumharay naam thi. you
and i had talked about it once, many moons
back. all of a sudden it poured out with all the
other stored up ooze.
farzana...i read the one on one discussion
offer with sensual paki smirking as well :)
sensual paki and paki girls giving head....if
you want head, give some first. golden rule.
can`t go wrong. and silly me, here i didnt
know there was an option of no head. what
kind of sex would that be? that`s like telling a
chef, no hands.
temporal. wah yaar, kamal kardiya. kahan
say kahan lay gaye ap hum ko. hats off.
why`d i do it? rather why would i do it? how
about why i wouldnt do it...for all the reasons i
wrote of...those are why i woudlnt. why i would
remains to be seen.
i guess no one/very few (you know who you
are) got the bottom line...there doesnt have to
be a tangible, finger point-able reason.
purple...what the hell are you talking about?
im like one of the goodest, self proclaimed
goodest girls i know. i really am.
rajanjua i love neruda...don`t translate..it ruins
it. ever read machado? hes fantastic.
patrick...keep hope alive :) when are we going
to see something from you to shake this place
up again?
challo, i think that about covers it. no more
meds, i fought the flu. bloody battle, one victor.
she stands tall.
oh, and i will come back to this issue of
pakistanis not willing to accept me...see if i
dont, one day. its a silly reverse battle.
z ``one day there will be a ``plop`` next to my
name`` rizvi.
where to start? i dont know if i have that much
energy.
slink, is main aik line tumharay naam thi. you
and i had talked about it once, many moons
back. all of a sudden it poured out with all the
other stored up ooze.
farzana...i read the one on one discussion
offer with sensual paki smirking as well :)
sensual paki and paki girls giving head....if
you want head, give some first. golden rule.
can`t go wrong. and silly me, here i didnt
know there was an option of no head. what
kind of sex would that be? that`s like telling a
chef, no hands.
temporal. wah yaar, kamal kardiya. kahan
say kahan lay gaye ap hum ko. hats off.
why`d i do it? rather why would i do it? how
about why i wouldnt do it...for all the reasons i
wrote of...those are why i woudlnt. why i would
remains to be seen.
i guess no one/very few (you know who you
are) got the bottom line...there doesnt have to
be a tangible, finger point-able reason.
purple...what the hell are you talking about?
im like one of the goodest, self proclaimed
goodest girls i know. i really am.
rajanjua i love neruda...don`t translate..it ruins
it. ever read machado? hes fantastic.
patrick...keep hope alive :) when are we going
to see something from you to shake this place
up again?
challo, i think that about covers it. no more
meds, i fought the flu. bloody battle, one victor.
she stands tall.
oh, and i will come back to this issue of
pakistanis not willing to accept me...see if i
dont, one day. its a silly reverse battle.
z ``one day there will be a ``plop`` next to my
name`` rizvi.
#87 Posted by Godot on March 12, 2001 12:04:59 am
Re: scout, #81
Scout, you are very funny!
You remind me of the central character, Sana, in my most favorite play of PTV: Unkahi. Loved her.
Re: Purple, #77
Now, that was just great! I wish you submit something like that to Chowk for the Front Page.
Why are you purple, by the way? Holding your breath for too long? For whom? For what? You can breathe in now, because whatever it is, it`s not working out. Or is it that you are tripping on LSD and see purple haze all around you?
Scout, you are very funny!
You remind me of the central character, Sana, in my most favorite play of PTV: Unkahi. Loved her.
Re: Purple, #77
Now, that was just great! I wish you submit something like that to Chowk for the Front Page.
Why are you purple, by the way? Holding your breath for too long? For whom? For what? You can breathe in now, because whatever it is, it`s not working out. Or is it that you are tripping on LSD and see purple haze all around you?
#88 Posted by scout on March 12, 2001 2:05:16 am
Godot #88, ``You remind me of the central character, Sana, in my most favorite play of PTV: Unkahi. Loved her.``
I even look like her if forget to wear your glasses and squint real hard while high on hashish.
By the way, thanks for the ``compliment.`` :)
I even look like her if forget to wear your glasses and squint real hard while high on hashish.
By the way, thanks for the ``compliment.`` :)
#89 Posted by Purple on March 12, 2001 10:02:03 am
Godot (88)
oye. how do you know its not working out?
thanks for the compliment though ...
-P
ps: Zehra, your (enjoyable) babble reminded me of times gone by (not unlike half the rest of the board) so I let my breath out somewhat. no reflection on you. honest.
oye. how do you know its not working out?
thanks for the compliment though ...
-P
ps: Zehra, your (enjoyable) babble reminded me of times gone by (not unlike half the rest of the board) so I let my breath out somewhat. no reflection on you. honest.
#90 Posted by Godot on March 12, 2001 10:02:03 am
Re: scout, #89
``I even look like her if [I] forget to wear your glasses and squint real hard while high on hashish.``
I don`t wear glasses. I wear shades. Hash is not easy to get for me. I get by on weed. But, Like James Dean, I do squint.
``thanks for the ``compliment.`` :)``
You`re welcome. And I still love Sana.
``I even look like her if [I] forget to wear your glasses and squint real hard while high on hashish.``
I don`t wear glasses. I wear shades. Hash is not easy to get for me. I get by on weed. But, Like James Dean, I do squint.
``thanks for the ``compliment.`` :)``
You`re welcome. And I still love Sana.
#91 Posted by macgupta on March 12, 2001 10:23:22 pm
Listen to an interview with Asma Jahangir on the National Public Radio program, Fresh Air with Terry Gross, on RealAudio, at
http://freshair.npr.org/dayFA.cfm?display=day&todayDate=03%2F12%2F2001
Blurb :
Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir. She’s been at the forefront of the movements for women’s rights, human rights and peace in Pakistan for twenty years. She co-founded the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan. In her work she’s defended a boy against the charge of blasphemy-the penalty would have been death. She’s defended the right of women to chose their own husbands. Because of her efforts she’s been arrested, received death threats, and been the target of hostile propaganda. Jahangir is one of the six recipients of the new Millennium peace Prize for Women, which is cosponsored by the UN Development Fund for Women.
-Arun the Infidelator
#92 Posted by kamran9999 on March 13, 2001 2:44:11 am
Z, great writing (how far you`ve come from ``temptress``). Very honest. Gotta love that. And head...lots of head. Nothing wrong with that either. I called because I read you have the flu. Just read now that you`re over it. All`s well then. :)
-!K!-
-!K!-