They Changed My God

TAhmed #

For God sake. Don`t invite RSaxena to become Muslim.

Leave some insanes for Hindus also.

JR:

``What is wrong in asking for an explanation? And what is wrong in disagreeing with an explanation?``

There is nothing wrong in either asking questions or disareement.

What is wrong is asking questions in the manner in which u did, pl. read my last post on this. Any questions u ask shd be in a spirit to clarify wht u think is wrong and even if u want to critisize this shd be done in a serious dignified way.

``I do not have to quote from the Quoran, but to any person with the slightest intellect it is evident that there are verses that are demeaning to women and non believers of the faith.``

No sir, without pointing out precisely which verses u mean this line of reasoning as u put ``will not hold ion any court of law`` rt?

`` A little baby girl born in another faith - is she a kufr. Is she a lesser human and are

the doors of heaven not open to her because she ..``

The answer is NO. Isalm says all children r innocent, any child who dies before maturity shall in our belief go to heaven.

``I have researched into history of the Quoran and it is believed that the poetic version appeared later than the original. A lot of tribal and political verses were..``

Again this is the first time i have come acroos someone claiiming that verses were added to the Quran. Pl. give me some references.

``Do you as educated people really support Jihad the way it is carried out today?

........this what the Quoran teaches? I am sorry sirs, this version ofIslam is really not the one originally intended. ``

Dont the Chechens have a rt to defend themselves to demand freedom, same for the Palestinians Kashmiris Bosnians and other Jehadi outfits.

UNO has miserably failed to anything but safeguard the interests of the Western countries. So my question is wht shd these ppls. do. suffer slavery or simply commit mass suicide??

WHo r u to tell me wht islam originally intended and this wothout any reference??



``If you agree with me or not, there is a need for the message to be amended.``

In a word NO. What is however needed is to reinterpret certain ideas not in the Quran (THE QURAN IS ALLAHS WORD AND CANNOT BE CHANGED) but in Islamic jurisprudence and many islamists are already working on this.

Please do answer my querries as well.

Adnan

Sadna:

``I have been on chowk many months, in this period I have been asked 4-5 times to convert, seriously or jokingly and one of those asking me was your esteemed self, you maynot remember. Whenever I refused, I did so politely in the spirit of chowk informality. I donot feel any insecurity related to this, but I think I am justified in raising this point at this time, which I chose not to do earlier.``

That`s pretty interesting.

You CANNOT convert to any religion or belief system if you are asked to do so and you should NOT go for that!

You should ONLY go that far if you have any internal connection that asks you to take such an action!

I have not read anyone asking you to do that, therefore excuse my ignorance. Well, then I haven`t read many fiascos and their proceedings around me. Lack of Interest. Personally, I feel if someone had asked you to do that, it must be due to your apparent interest in exploring the intricacies of Islam. Well, there is nothing wrong about being inquisitive - good for you! Keep your quest for knowledge and living beings alive :-)

Somehow, I could not resist bringing Vanessa William`s beautiful lyrical ballad that I`ve always loved and cherished. Enjoy the ``Color of the Wind``!

tahmed321 #195

I remember a similar berating from you when I first mentioned the Pakistani ruling on interest-free banking, at some later time 2 articles on the subject appeared on chowk. Bottom line: scolding sadna didnot make interest-free banking go away.

I have been on chowk many months, in this period I have been asked 4-5 times to convert, seriously or jokingly and one of those asking me was your esteemed self, you maynot remember. Whenever I refused, I did so politely in the spirit of chowk informality. I donot feel any insecurity related to this, but I think I am justified in raising this point at this time, which I chose not to do earlier.

As you say, you are free to interpret your religion as you wish, why not. I wish you and those like you all the best in your endeavors for a more just order. Unlike what you allege, nowhere do I assert that I know something about your religion nor was I spelling out anything.

But if its a requirement that your religion should guide the making of laws in your country, then the issue becomes public domain and open to question. Mixing such questions up and casting them as a challenge to your personal faith, well, thats the easy copout the even those you term `nutcases` use to great effect.

Its obvious from even a cursory study that punishment prescribed for apostasy or blasphemy is not a clear cut issue, there is plenty of debate about it, admit it or not. The key issue seems to be the acceptance of certain Hadiths which prescribe death for apostasy.
There are 2 issues here:
Are the Hadiths prescribing death accepted by the Islamic scholars who give expert opinion in writing Sharia laws
Are the Hadiths and Islamic scholars` views and recommendations religiously/legally binding on lay Muslims

Here is a quote:
http://www.geocities.com/

MacGupta #198 ``That being said, it is true that the punishment in the Sharia for apostacy is death.``

My response is the same as to Sadna. If you chose to accept the nut-case version of Islam, not what is in the Quran, then that is your choice. However, in that case you and I are talking about two different things, so there is no point in arguing. Someday, I hope you will allow us muslims a bit more courtesy when defining our religion for us.

tahmed123 : I respect your right to interpret religious texts for yourself.

That being said, it is true that the punishment in the Sharia for apostacy is death. The rationale given by modern apologists is :

``Why does Islam not allow apostacy? Apostacy or irtidãd in Islam is equal to treason.``

``It must be emphasized that irtidãd which we are discussing here involves open rejection, without any force and with the realization of what one`s statements or actions imply. The punishment prescribed by the shari`a for apostacy is death.``

http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostacy.htm

-Arun the Infidelator

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Hasnains #193 ``The other day i heard on TV that GOD likes blue color that is why most of the people like that color!`` I too have heard such pathetic stuff sometimes in Sunday Schools. But dont fault Islam for such rubbish, and I agree that we dont need to waste time trying to convince these idiots. And you dont need to discuss Islam with anyone, since that is something between you and God and no other man`s business (much as many men would like it to make their business). But do take the time to study the Quran (with understanding, as you would any other book) and I promise you wont be sorry.

sadna #194 You are obviously choose to define Islam as what some nut-cases say, not what is in the books. You dont become a muslim and stay a muslim out of fear, but out of love and conviction. How can you presume to pass judgements on Islam when you are obviously (from the things you have put down in this one post alone) totally ignorant of Islam? The Holy Prophet is clearly instructed in the Quran to ``lower his wings`` (meaning be gentle) towards the believers in his message, but that if they chose not to believe than he is no longer responsible for them. Elsewhere the same message is repeated. Nowhere does it call for death for leaving Islam - it says the opposite. If you make a distinction between Islam and Pakistani politics, that is fine. But that distinction means nothing to you.

As for my joking invitation to RSaxena to become a muslim - that was a joke (you may have to study the encyclopedia to understand what is meant by a joke). I have said earlier on this thread that you can be a non-muslim and go to heaven and you can be a muslim and go to hell, so I am sure RSaxena would understand that this is a joke and not a clever ploy to convert him. The rest of your post is rooted in the usual India-Pakistan Fight-of-the-Morons about ``you people bad, very, very bad; us people good, real, real good``. I leave it for you to judge the value of such fights.

tahmed321 #188
You say to Rsaxena

`` You will find my countrymen (and young anNy too) stoutly defending Islam as being a compassionate religion. If it seems new, then I hope you will also read my post to Pankaj on the subject on why this seems new. I have discussed the specifics with people of the contrary viewpoint (yes, even Asif N., earlier on this thread) and you will find that even they cannot deny this fact.
PS We`ll make a muslim out of you yet.
PPS Just kidding. ...``

tahmed321, I see two tragedies in these sentences which are spoken lightheartedly.

The first tragedy is that for all your countrymen defending Islam as being compassionate and perhaps many of them themselves practising Islam compassionately, for ALL that, a statement like you made ``We`ll make a muslim out of you`` cannot be reciprocated even lighheartedly by Rsaxena in Pakistan without his being killed for it by your same scriptures which are upheld by the state. Am I right?

Thats tragedy number one: your compassionate religion prescribes death for those who leave it, or those who even speak of getting someone to leave it.

The second tragedy is you and other truly compassionate Muslims seem to live in so much detachment from the hard and fast provisions existing in your own society that you are unable to get your country/society and its rules to reflect your compassion.

Sadhana

there is one thing that bothers me about those who are raising voice against fantacism and that is they use the religious arguments against these fundamentalist and fanatic outbursts.

Religious believes and practices are irrational, why do you need any argument to justify that? Arguments are used when there is a logic/reasoning behind every act, like in a scientific world.

This fundamentalism must be countered with the scientific explanation of the existence of every thing/phenomenon.

The other day i heard on TV that GOD likes blue color that is why most of the people like that color! Now how are you going to counter it? By saying that ` no a few years ago God liked green color` or by giving psychological explanation of the soothing effect that colors like blue have?

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temporal #175 Thank you sir for the excellent tips. Actually the idea wasnt on how to augment the ageing process but on how to put an end to it one day. But thanks anyway, since you just increased my knowledge on this and I also learnt how those cork sniffers are real fakes (I always suspected as much, actually, but your post shed some new light on this mysterious ritual).

Zahra: Fair enough. Let the thought be as silent as the sound of a tree falling with no one listening. (I think I better stop writing all these posts before I start to wax too lyrical - and I am not sure that temporal will permit this twisted implementation of the ``wax lyrical`` phrase).

anNy #180 Good to see your post, and hope RSaxena will see that far from being a voice in the wilderness what I am saying on this thread is no more than what the vast majority of Pakistanis feel in their hearts.

JR #182

`` Please sir explain to us mortals in plain language about the verses below...``

Let me try (although the question is to another poster.

``5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.``

Elsewhere in the Quran it refers to Christians and Jews in a totally different light: There is an entire Surah (Surah Al-Rum) where the Quran speaks of the Christian Roman Empire with not just tolerance but affection - the Quran talks of the Romans having recently been defeated by the (then heathen) Persians ``in a land nearby`` and says the believers (the Christian Romans) will ultimately emerge triumphant. Elsewhere it talks about Christians as being men of learning. Elsewhere it says how the Quran adds nothing to what has not already been delivered by Moses. Elsewhere the Quran says that (unless you are threatened with expulsion from your homes, when you have a right to defend yourself) muslims should seek to live peacefully and indeed with affection with other people of the world. Elsewhere the Quran says that the message has been delivered to all people in a language they can understand through one of their own.

So: you could have asked for an explanation for this one verse that you have dragged out of a sea of different views. And the explanation is simple enough: there are parts of the Quran that are eternal and parts that are specific to that time - e.g. there is a Surah on how to behave before the Holy Prophet (i.e. speak in a voice that is no louder than his): clearly those verses were meant for that time only, and lose significance after the Prophet passed away.

``[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good

women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.``

Read elsewhere in the Quran and you will find that there are no limits placed on how high a woman can rise in society: of the two earthly kingdoms mentioned in the Quran, the evil one (of the Pharaohs) is headed by a man while the one the Quran speaks approvingly of and with affection is headed by a woman (the Queen of Sheba). In relations between the sexes, the Quran first calls upon men to keep their eyes to themselves, and only then calls upon women (in carefully measured same words) to do the same (the fact that only the latter part is stressed among many muslims with women covered head to toe in the burqa and in the extreme case of Afghanistan barred from any gainful employment, let alone as head of state like Queen Sheba is not the fault of Islam). And everywhere the Quran talks about refraining from violence and that God loves those who restrain themselves.

``Please don`t kid yourselves. There are verses in the Quoran that definitely need to go. ``

Hope you realize now that we are not kidding ourselves. Carefully read, and with the basic lessons taken to heart, the Quran is a powerful force for decency and good. The exceptions like the ones you mention only serve to prove the rule, as I hope I have been able to explain. Hope this long post serves the purpose of the response I had promised to provide over the weekend.

Rsaxena #176 ``Christians admitted the Crusades were wrong and moved on. Hindus accepted that the caste system was wrong and made it illegal (it`s not gone yet, but at least it`s a start).``

I dont think the Christians ever did such a thing. And the caste system is dying due to urbanization. That will happen in Islam too. I dont think as a muslim I am obliged to say the Mahmud of Ghaznvi was right in attacking Somnath (in fact, this was a travesty not just against Hinduism but against Islam as well). Trouble is, people too often seem to look into the past rather than the future, and dont like to think for themselves and find it easy to identify with the group they belong to. This is a human weakness, not just a muslim one.

``You seem to believe in an entirely new and compassionate religion which looks nothing like Islam. Even your countrymen will agree with that.``

You will find my countrymen (and young anNy too) stoutly defending Islam as being a compassionate religion. If it seems new, then I hope you will also read my post to Pankaj on the subject on why this seems new. I have discussed the specifics with people of the contrary viewpoint (yes, even Asif N., earlier on this thread) and you will find that even they cannot deny this fact.

PS We`ll make a muslim out of you yet.

PPS Just kidding.