They Changed My God
Anwar Iqbal March 7, 2001
#138 Posted by PM on March 14, 2001 11:22:52 pm
re. Zahra,
``Had there been a kid, he/she would have had a real hard time understanding the reason for all my acrobats. I completely agree with you.``
I`m not sure if you`re being ironic there or not, because if you are, there is nothing in your story to support your thesis-- or mine for that matter.
rgds,
``Had there been a kid, he/she would have had a real hard time understanding the reason for all my acrobats. I completely agree with you.``
I`m not sure if you`re being ironic there or not, because if you are, there is nothing in your story to support your thesis-- or mine for that matter.
rgds,
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#137 Posted by PM on March 14, 2001 11:22:52 pm
re. Zahra #135
``PM:Despite the fact that I do not read you often, I ran into your above comment and am forced to say something.``
Gee, I feel blessed!
``PM:Despite the fact that I do not read you often, I ran into your above comment and am forced to say something.``
Gee, I feel blessed!
#136 Posted by aicha on March 14, 2001 11:22:52 pm
Reply 135
And this reminds me of a line from MI2 -
``Mr Hunt will proceed in unness acrobatics/aerobatics when there is a perfectly easy way of doing things !!``
Anyone who remembers this line is more than welcome to post the correct filmi version. THe above is my hashed version
And this reminds me of a line from MI2 -
``Mr Hunt will proceed in unness acrobatics/aerobatics when there is a perfectly easy way of doing things !!``
Anyone who remembers this line is more than welcome to post the correct filmi version. THe above is my hashed version
#135 Posted by macgupta on March 14, 2001 11:22:52 pm
In tracking down an anti-Hindu tract, I came across the following anti-Muslim tract (created by evangelical Christians). I think it should qualify as hate literature.
Here is the anti-Muslim tract :
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp
(The anti-Hindu tract is available on the same site).
-Arun Gupta
#134 Posted by Zahra on March 14, 2001 5:50:04 pm
``...contradiction does NOT sit easily with kids, as it does with devout adults.``
PM:
Despite the fact that I do not read you often, I ran into your above comment and am forced to say something. Few years back, I was on one of my travel assignments in Connecticut. There was a leakage problem with my room`s ceiling at the hotel. The efficient and concerned staff hurried to take care of the problem and had a maid cleaning up my roon, for an hour or so after midnight.
The next evening, when I got back from work, I had a beautiful and well-decorated fruit and cheese basket, along with two bottles of Red Wine and a very sweet card, anxiously waiting to welcome me in my room.
I went down and thanked the front desk ladies, and we exchanged pleasantries for a few minutes. Now in my heart and heart, I was preparing myself to tell them that I would not like the wine lying in my room and they can pick it up. I also knew the intent of their gesture, so had to be a little diplomatic as well. While I am having this internal conversation, I ran into another colleague near the front desk. I told her my issue with the wine bottles lying in my room. She knew that I do not drink, but her eyes lit up and I could see the spark. I did another strange thing; and was very surprised on my own awareness at that time. I told her that I cannot think of presenting them to her as that will make me a sinner, so I will have to return them to the front desk and she can go ahead and do whatever she wanted to do with them. She bursted into a fit of laughter. I mustered up enough courage to let the front desk know about my reason for returning the bottles; brought the bottles down and left them with them. My colleague ended up consuming both of them. I told her that I can never think of presenting such a gift to anyone[even,in my wildest imagination] and that`s out of my league, so it`s not a gift or a present or anything from my side. In short, do not you dare to think of thanking me. She respected that[in extreme amusement].
I looked like an idiot going through all this hassle. I could have picked the wine from my room and returned to the front desk or I could have handed them on my own to my colleague or I could have asked her to pick them up from my room. Somehow I did not do any of the very obvious and simpler things. I had to justify my very own conscience. At the end, I was very relieved.
Had there been a kid, he/she would have had a real hard time understanding the reason for all my acrobats. I completely agree with you.
Thanks for provoking me to write something that I never thought of putting down in black and white.
PM:
Despite the fact that I do not read you often, I ran into your above comment and am forced to say something. Few years back, I was on one of my travel assignments in Connecticut. There was a leakage problem with my room`s ceiling at the hotel. The efficient and concerned staff hurried to take care of the problem and had a maid cleaning up my roon, for an hour or so after midnight.
The next evening, when I got back from work, I had a beautiful and well-decorated fruit and cheese basket, along with two bottles of Red Wine and a very sweet card, anxiously waiting to welcome me in my room.
I went down and thanked the front desk ladies, and we exchanged pleasantries for a few minutes. Now in my heart and heart, I was preparing myself to tell them that I would not like the wine lying in my room and they can pick it up. I also knew the intent of their gesture, so had to be a little diplomatic as well. While I am having this internal conversation, I ran into another colleague near the front desk. I told her my issue with the wine bottles lying in my room. She knew that I do not drink, but her eyes lit up and I could see the spark. I did another strange thing; and was very surprised on my own awareness at that time. I told her that I cannot think of presenting them to her as that will make me a sinner, so I will have to return them to the front desk and she can go ahead and do whatever she wanted to do with them. She bursted into a fit of laughter. I mustered up enough courage to let the front desk know about my reason for returning the bottles; brought the bottles down and left them with them. My colleague ended up consuming both of them. I told her that I can never think of presenting such a gift to anyone[even,in my wildest imagination] and that`s out of my league, so it`s not a gift or a present or anything from my side. In short, do not you dare to think of thanking me. She respected that[in extreme amusement].
I looked like an idiot going through all this hassle. I could have picked the wine from my room and returned to the front desk or I could have handed them on my own to my colleague or I could have asked her to pick them up from my room. Somehow I did not do any of the very obvious and simpler things. I had to justify my very own conscience. At the end, I was very relieved.
Had there been a kid, he/she would have had a real hard time understanding the reason for all my acrobats. I completely agree with you.
Thanks for provoking me to write something that I never thought of putting down in black and white.
#133 Posted by JR on March 14, 2001 1:06:34 pm
tahmed #110
Mr. Ahmed I see you are trying your best to convey that the Quoran has nothing to do with how the Jihadis and Maudoodis act. For a minute think if that will fly in a court of law when the perpetrators themselves claim that it is the Quoran and Sunnah that are teaching them to act that way. So who is right? You or them?
Mr.Ahmed, reality is very different from how you wish things ought to be.
There is a certain exclusiveness taught and ingrained in Muslims that causes them to keep away and be removed from other people. Though Muslims socialize with others it is always an us vs them - the basis again being Islam. This exlusiveness, this holier-than-thou is the indoctrination I am talking about. Most Christians, Buddhists and Hindus have crossed that bridge, but the Jews and Muslims still hang on to being that ``chosen`` peoples. This is what manifests in all the us vs. them struggles worldwide - Chechnya, Israel, Bosnia, Kashmir, Indonesia, Malaysia etc.
I fully admit that the original intent of the Quoran and its authors was noble and good, but they would never have realized that they created an instrument that is the basis for a lot of problems.
I do not buy the argument that the Quoran and Sunnah are eternally good, it is the people who interpret it wrongly. No, what good is a book that allows itself to be interpreted so wrongly. What good is a message that is so ambiguous and misleading.
Islam must allow misleading verses to be expunged and must reform itself with a message that is more universal and human- only then there can be any justification for why it was originally created.
Mr. Ahmed I see you are trying your best to convey that the Quoran has nothing to do with how the Jihadis and Maudoodis act. For a minute think if that will fly in a court of law when the perpetrators themselves claim that it is the Quoran and Sunnah that are teaching them to act that way. So who is right? You or them?
Mr.Ahmed, reality is very different from how you wish things ought to be.
There is a certain exclusiveness taught and ingrained in Muslims that causes them to keep away and be removed from other people. Though Muslims socialize with others it is always an us vs them - the basis again being Islam. This exlusiveness, this holier-than-thou is the indoctrination I am talking about. Most Christians, Buddhists and Hindus have crossed that bridge, but the Jews and Muslims still hang on to being that ``chosen`` peoples. This is what manifests in all the us vs. them struggles worldwide - Chechnya, Israel, Bosnia, Kashmir, Indonesia, Malaysia etc.
I fully admit that the original intent of the Quoran and its authors was noble and good, but they would never have realized that they created an instrument that is the basis for a lot of problems.
I do not buy the argument that the Quoran and Sunnah are eternally good, it is the people who interpret it wrongly. No, what good is a book that allows itself to be interpreted so wrongly. What good is a message that is so ambiguous and misleading.
Islam must allow misleading verses to be expunged and must reform itself with a message that is more universal and human- only then there can be any justification for why it was originally created.
#132 Posted by JR on March 14, 2001 1:06:34 pm
tahmed #110
Mr. Ahmed I see you are trying your best to convey that the Quoran has nothing to do with how the Jihadis and Maudoodis act. For a minute think if that will fly in a court of law when the perpetrators themselves claim that it is the Quoran and Sunnah that are teaching them to act that way. So who is right? You or them?
Mr.Ahmed, reality is very different from how you wish things ought to be.
There is a certain exclusiveness taught and ingrained in Muslims that causes them to keep away and be removed from other people. Though Muslims socialize with others it is always an us vs them - the basis again being Islam. This exlusiveness, this holier-than-thou is the indoctrination I am talking about. Most Christians, Buddhists and Hindus have crossed that bridge, but the Jews and Muslims still hang on to being that ``chosen`` peoples. This is what manifests in all the us vs. them struggles worldwide - Chechnya, Israel, Bosnia, Kashmir, Indonesia, Malaysia etc.
I fully admit that the original intent of the Quoran and its authors was noble and good, but they would never have realized that they created an instrument that is the basis for a lot of problems.
I do not buy the argument that the Quoran and Sunnah are eternally good, it is the people who interpret it wrongly. No, what good is a book that allows itself to be interpreted so wrongly. What good is a message that is so ambiguous and misleading.
Islam must allow misleading verses to be expunged and must reform itself with a message that is more universal and human- only then there can be any justification for why it was originally created.
Mr. Ahmed I see you are trying your best to convey that the Quoran has nothing to do with how the Jihadis and Maudoodis act. For a minute think if that will fly in a court of law when the perpetrators themselves claim that it is the Quoran and Sunnah that are teaching them to act that way. So who is right? You or them?
Mr.Ahmed, reality is very different from how you wish things ought to be.
There is a certain exclusiveness taught and ingrained in Muslims that causes them to keep away and be removed from other people. Though Muslims socialize with others it is always an us vs them - the basis again being Islam. This exlusiveness, this holier-than-thou is the indoctrination I am talking about. Most Christians, Buddhists and Hindus have crossed that bridge, but the Jews and Muslims still hang on to being that ``chosen`` peoples. This is what manifests in all the us vs. them struggles worldwide - Chechnya, Israel, Bosnia, Kashmir, Indonesia, Malaysia etc.
I fully admit that the original intent of the Quoran and its authors was noble and good, but they would never have realized that they created an instrument that is the basis for a lot of problems.
I do not buy the argument that the Quoran and Sunnah are eternally good, it is the people who interpret it wrongly. No, what good is a book that allows itself to be interpreted so wrongly. What good is a message that is so ambiguous and misleading.
Islam must allow misleading verses to be expunged and must reform itself with a message that is more universal and human- only then there can be any justification for why it was originally created.
#131 Posted by tahmed321 on March 14, 2001 12:26:43 pm
cheraym #114 Good to hear from you. Far be it for me to espouse censorship in discussions - but surely you will agree that it would be better if people drew the line somewhere and avoid ridiculing others beliefs and views. I had meant my original post to be a gentle reminder only (it really was not written in a hostile manner) that it was inappropriate to print verses from the Quran in a cynical or joking manner. It got out of hand when I started hearing from hamidm and some others on what a muslim fanatic I was and earned some nice titles to the effect as well from hamidm.
On the other hand, it has been nice to see so many chowk people being supportive on this point: Zahra, Godot, PM, temporal (I think) and some others too. I too hope hamidm keeps on posting...even with dots if he must...but also hope that he will try to be a bit more sensitive to others - and less sensitive about himself - than he has been to date.
On the other hand, it has been nice to see so many chowk people being supportive on this point: Zahra, Godot, PM, temporal (I think) and some others too. I too hope hamidm keeps on posting...even with dots if he must...but also hope that he will try to be a bit more sensitive to others - and less sensitive about himself - than he has been to date.
#130 Posted by temporal on March 14, 2001 11:45:30 am
DOT J.E.L.L.
...braderm hamidm will you be the new founder and chief executive of dot jell....dot Justice, Equality, Life and Liberty....this dot jell will underwrite peaceful co-existence between all religions?... go for this bud... Muslims for JELL, Jews for JELL...Thackeray (not you jay)for JELL...lets get the whole world on this stage with or without their little kirpans, AK47s, tasbeehs, books, rosaries, night-vision glasses, itchy fingers and ‘other unmentionables”
ON HAMID’s STYLE
A serious and emerging poet from India who has since left chowk because s/he cannot hack the internecine impuissant, inefficacious, imbecilic mud slinging wrote to me once of hamid’s style:
[…we have Hamidm on Chowk...stoned immaculate kind of non-punctuated writing…once called automatic writing by Breton and his surrealists. Of course, theirs was supposed to be unconscious…at the very least subconscious…since it was an experiment to invoke and unfetter the unconscious....]
Hamid says this of his style in his inimitable way``.... my dotted style of dragging simple parables into convoluted circular arguments with dots running into jumpy sentences which run into more dots and then into endless paragraphs which somewhere in the middle loose meaning and context and you find yourself lost looking for that elusive end to a big ball of string which somehow seems to be important but which could be kaka for all you know ......``
* * * * * * * *
hamid you say [....``Insan`` is one way to describe humanity, but it is the other meaning that i was referring to. Insan can be, and usually is, quite devoid of humanity...]...you are mixing up ‘Aadmi’ with ‘Insaan’.... the latter is evolutionary and higher life form....
and
[...am sure i can somehow manage to get the grammarian temporal to take the fall for me - he deserves to be burned at the stake for his own little inquisiton of bad writers...]
...ok I will go collect the wood...is that sadism or masochism?...or both...for the stake is high ( no pun)...and the way I see this is may be a history making event... ‘he’ was nailed alone...if horses were wishes ... no not the one that took off from the current holy city to the former one ....or wishes were horses...never mind...if their wishes come true... then perhaps both of us could be nailed to one stake...for there is no difference really ... both are ‘word’ warriors...the written word...the uttered word... words, words.....let us go gather wood...
rgds,
t
...braderm hamidm will you be the new founder and chief executive of dot jell....dot Justice, Equality, Life and Liberty....this dot jell will underwrite peaceful co-existence between all religions?... go for this bud... Muslims for JELL, Jews for JELL...Thackeray (not you jay)for JELL...lets get the whole world on this stage with or without their little kirpans, AK47s, tasbeehs, books, rosaries, night-vision glasses, itchy fingers and ‘other unmentionables”
ON HAMID’s STYLE
A serious and emerging poet from India who has since left chowk because s/he cannot hack the internecine impuissant, inefficacious, imbecilic mud slinging wrote to me once of hamid’s style:
[…we have Hamidm on Chowk...stoned immaculate kind of non-punctuated writing…once called automatic writing by Breton and his surrealists. Of course, theirs was supposed to be unconscious…at the very least subconscious…since it was an experiment to invoke and unfetter the unconscious....]
Hamid says this of his style in his inimitable way``.... my dotted style of dragging simple parables into convoluted circular arguments with dots running into jumpy sentences which run into more dots and then into endless paragraphs which somewhere in the middle loose meaning and context and you find yourself lost looking for that elusive end to a big ball of string which somehow seems to be important but which could be kaka for all you know ......``
* * * * * * * *
hamid you say [....``Insan`` is one way to describe humanity, but it is the other meaning that i was referring to. Insan can be, and usually is, quite devoid of humanity...]...you are mixing up ‘Aadmi’ with ‘Insaan’.... the latter is evolutionary and higher life form....
and
[...am sure i can somehow manage to get the grammarian temporal to take the fall for me - he deserves to be burned at the stake for his own little inquisiton of bad writers...]
...ok I will go collect the wood...is that sadism or masochism?...or both...for the stake is high ( no pun)...and the way I see this is may be a history making event... ‘he’ was nailed alone...if horses were wishes ... no not the one that took off from the current holy city to the former one ....or wishes were horses...never mind...if their wishes come true... then perhaps both of us could be nailed to one stake...for there is no difference really ... both are ‘word’ warriors...the written word...the uttered word... words, words.....let us go gather wood...
rgds,
t
#129 Posted by temporal on March 14, 2001 11:41:15 am
cheraym:
...but of course!...t-bhai....has been officially assigned to you and scout....in exchange for those raakhis....and I agree hamidm is all that ... master, emperor, lord of dots... and more...and I am so modest!...and luckily for me....he is not a mediocre poet....warna oos kay liyay laRRkiaN .... no lakRRiyaN jama karni paRRtee...isn’t each inquisition followed by stake burning?
khusro:
...mut sharminda karo ... aur koshish karo kay izhar-e-bayaan behtur ho ... kabhi kabhi tou aapki baataiN humari samajh maiN bhee nahiN aati haiN... aur agar koshish bhee karain tou aisa nahin likh patay...:)
tahmed321
you say...[... What I was protesting about had to do with knowing when one stops being funny and starts being obnoxious. Mullahs are only part of the problem we have in Pakistan - the half-assed elite (the ones that take loans with no intent to repay, run for elections with no intent to serve, consider drinking a status symbol) are the other part...]
....not so fast braader...over the years have read your interacts... and you are mostly a moderate and sensible one here... and if hamid has managed to irritate you ... perhaps he should look into it.. and you too....granted he steps on toes... but that comes with the territory....personally I’d rather have him cover that angle than some of the other ‘legends’ in their own warped minds...the advantage is obvious...with him we can take it with a grain of salt... with others...you cannot reason or talk back...they are so full of hot air and so confidently and adamantly make decisions on behalf of every one...I know silence is sin...but I’d rather remain silent (this for you too bilal) and hold my peace than engage the stilted ignoramus legends...
love and regards
temporal
...but of course!...t-bhai....has been officially assigned to you and scout....in exchange for those raakhis....and I agree hamidm is all that ... master, emperor, lord of dots... and more...and I am so modest!...and luckily for me....he is not a mediocre poet....warna oos kay liyay laRRkiaN .... no lakRRiyaN jama karni paRRtee...isn’t each inquisition followed by stake burning?
khusro:
...mut sharminda karo ... aur koshish karo kay izhar-e-bayaan behtur ho ... kabhi kabhi tou aapki baataiN humari samajh maiN bhee nahiN aati haiN... aur agar koshish bhee karain tou aisa nahin likh patay...:)
tahmed321
you say...[... What I was protesting about had to do with knowing when one stops being funny and starts being obnoxious. Mullahs are only part of the problem we have in Pakistan - the half-assed elite (the ones that take loans with no intent to repay, run for elections with no intent to serve, consider drinking a status symbol) are the other part...]
....not so fast braader...over the years have read your interacts... and you are mostly a moderate and sensible one here... and if hamid has managed to irritate you ... perhaps he should look into it.. and you too....granted he steps on toes... but that comes with the territory....personally I’d rather have him cover that angle than some of the other ‘legends’ in their own warped minds...the advantage is obvious...with him we can take it with a grain of salt... with others...you cannot reason or talk back...they are so full of hot air and so confidently and adamantly make decisions on behalf of every one...I know silence is sin...but I’d rather remain silent (this for you too bilal) and hold my peace than engage the stilted ignoramus legends...
love and regards
temporal
#128 Posted by tahmed321 on March 14, 2001 9:30:59 am
Zahra #122 Actually you had me going to the on-line dictionary as well to check out this new word ``merlot``. We learn so many new things on chowk every day :-)
#127 Posted by tahmed321 on March 14, 2001 9:30:59 am
hamidm #115 So now I am ``Grand Inquisitor Tahmed``. Arent we getting carried away a bit with this martyr act? I have repeatedly told you that your religious views are your business. If you think drinking is a sign of sophistication that is fine too (as long as you dont get violent with those around you when you get a bit high, since you have provided evidence of a very thin skin despite the ease with which you ridicule others). I too am concerned by the intimidation that Pakistanis are being subjected to by the power hungry through the blasphemy laws and shariah courts, and these are the opposite of what Islam is all about. These have to do with power-grabbing by those incapable of earning a living the honest way or of coming to power through the free will of the people. You keep ignoring my request to direct your posts to these people, rather than to Islam which teaches us the opposite. You refuse to un-confuse (sorry temporal for this word: I assure you this is a temporary lapse in grammer due to the heat of the discussion) yourself. As for your daughter getting into arguments with a Jewish kid on religious matters: maybe you ought to explain to the Missus that you intend to teach the Quran to your daughter yourself, get rid of the Qari and go through the Quran with understanding yourself with your daughter. This will help her grow up at peace with herself as well as with people of other faiths. You may pick up a thing or two as well. This will take an hour of your precious time every weekend, but believe me you will be glad you did.
#126 Posted by egalitarian_bra on March 14, 2001 9:30:59 am
Dear Akash ji:
``Merlot with beef curry`` -- munh mein paani bhur aya -- dekhiye, biryani nu bhooliye gaa --
``Merlot with beef curry`` -- munh mein paani bhur aya -- dekhiye, biryani nu bhooliye gaa --
#125 Posted by Godot on March 14, 2001 9:30:59 am
Re: hamidm, #115
Think about it: people who preach ``consideration`` and ``respect`` for other people`s ``feelings`` base their lives on a ``deen`` which forces them to teach their children that the Christians and Jews changed ``their`` god`s message, and that the Hindoos are idolators and kafir to begin with.``
So, those people who preach consideration and respect for other people`s feelings are ignorant and, to an extent, fanatic Muslims. And, to further follow your convoluted logic, Christians, Jews, and Hindus do not preach consideration and respect for other people`s feelings because they do not base their lives on ``deen.``
And I thought you were clever. My mistake. I apologize for it.
Think about it: people who preach ``consideration`` and ``respect`` for other people`s ``feelings`` base their lives on a ``deen`` which forces them to teach their children that the Christians and Jews changed ``their`` god`s message, and that the Hindoos are idolators and kafir to begin with.``
So, those people who preach consideration and respect for other people`s feelings are ignorant and, to an extent, fanatic Muslims. And, to further follow your convoluted logic, Christians, Jews, and Hindus do not preach consideration and respect for other people`s feelings because they do not base their lives on ``deen.``
And I thought you were clever. My mistake. I apologize for it.
#124 Posted by cheraym on March 14, 2001 9:30:59 am
Dear Krashid:
See, in this world we all have our own expertise( vice or virtue what that may be), so as in Chowk. Some of us are expert in hurling abuse to others, some are expert in name-calling, some are expert preachers, hypocrite!!! (you can include me in that category, if you want to, I would be honoured!). Our dear Temporal, is expert poet, but he is certainly not as good a dot-buster as hamidm is. I guess, Temporal will agree with me that the crown goes to Hamidm and only Hamidm...
Regards from horrible hypocrite hing (I thought hing came to India from Afganistan) eating hindooo...
See, in this world we all have our own expertise( vice or virtue what that may be), so as in Chowk. Some of us are expert in hurling abuse to others, some are expert in name-calling, some are expert preachers, hypocrite!!! (you can include me in that category, if you want to, I would be honoured!). Our dear Temporal, is expert poet, but he is certainly not as good a dot-buster as hamidm is. I guess, Temporal will agree with me that the crown goes to Hamidm and only Hamidm...
Regards from horrible hypocrite hing (I thought hing came to India from Afganistan) eating hindooo...
#123 Posted by PM on March 14, 2001 2:25:01 am
hamidm...
Part of me tends to side with tahmed on the matter of consideration of others` feelings etc-- this as much as I burn candles before Hazrat Russell every Sunday night. But on reading your #115, I know why it is so important that you keep posting --- dottedly or otherwise!
Remember being in a similar situation with my niece as you and your daughter... subject was creationism vs evolution.. trust me, contradiction does NOT sit easily with kids, as it does with devout adults.
Part of me tends to side with tahmed on the matter of consideration of others` feelings etc-- this as much as I burn candles before Hazrat Russell every Sunday night. But on reading your #115, I know why it is so important that you keep posting --- dottedly or otherwise!
Remember being in a similar situation with my niece as you and your daughter... subject was creationism vs evolution.. trust me, contradiction does NOT sit easily with kids, as it does with devout adults.
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