They Changed My God

YLH, re.36

``.. then let me line up the Pakistan ...or what it ideally SHOULD be in order to have a logical identity (that is if being the citizen of that state is not good enough)...

...2) Culture : Muslim``

And then you went on to quote from Jinnah`s ``Muslims will cease to be Muslims...`` speech.

Now, I`m a little confused (honeslty)... First you say that in order for Pakistan to have a `logical identidy`, it SHOULD have a Muslim culture. Ok, fine, that`s the reason your grandparents asked for Pakistan. But then how do you reconcile Jinnah`s prophecy with this?

I sense a contradiction.

sincerely,

PM

P.S. It would`ve made sense if you`d stated that Pakistan`s culture IS (as opposed to Should be) Muslim. `Should be` implies agenda and action, which to me, stands contrary to the ``Muslims will cease...`` line

hamidm and Asif,

I`m sorry to say this but both of you are complete fools and I`m too tired at the moment to explain the reasons why.

maybe later...

hamidm #66 I think it is very inappropriate to quote from the Quran in a joking or cynical manner as you have done. I say this since (a) out of consideration for those of us who take it seriously; (b) there is enough confusion already on these matters without adding to it. I have a hard time enough trying to keep some basic points straight with people like Asif N. without your stirring up things as well. Your humor is great, but please draw the line here (as you would in some other matters for the sake of decency).

ylh & humsab

1. ylh this is a better way of opposing someone elses point of view. Anyways, u have made the same error in understanding quran that is made by anyone who tries to understand the book withiut the guidance of the prophet.

I quoted certain verses and the not only this verse but also look at 2:62 which seems to convey the idea that faith does not matter.

But this is simply to repudiate the claims of the jews that they would not the punished by virtue of their being a jew.

And wht shd the beliefs be is explained further on.

SO u mke the classical error of taking quran to be a set of disjoint sentences. It is not. Never quote out of context.

I hope this will make clear to u the concept of the majority of the muslims.

to humsab

Wht r Gods intentions, why r they so, it is not for us to question. This just cannot be answered.

And please do not make a conclusion on a pt. on which the other person does not agree.

wassalaam

adnan

ps: a very nice book on the imp. of Hadith:

HADITH LITERATURE by Mohammad Zubayr Siddiqui

The Islamic Texts Society Cambridge 1993

Anwar,

I enjoyed reading your poem. After reading your poem, I closed my eyes and forgot religion. Too corrupted for me. I even forget sufism and mysticism. Still too complex for me. I just remember my childhood. I remembered those who loved me and think about the love and passion I had for life and people around me.

Thanks for the inspiration!

Asif Naqsbandi #62

I agree with you on this.

``To you your religion to me mine``

I will not explain why I am Muslim and not Sunni. (There is nothing Sunni in Koran or even Hadith)

I have only one problem regarding ``to you your religion and to me mine``

Either you have to proof that you are on right path, or don`t take a sword or club or shaving razor to convert Muslims to Sunnis.

HamidM #63

History of abrogated Ayah is also interesting, ranging from none to hundreds.

Jo Chahe Aap Ka Husne Krishma Saz Kare.

Qurani sect (I totally disagree with their method) don`t believe that any Ayah is abrogated.

Anwar

This was a good poem. It was pretty sufi sounding. I think sufi concept of God is more profound, God, to them, in a single word is love and should remain as such. All that religions do is make an icon out of him, convert him into physical form that behaves like foolish child. Let him be the pursuit of truth, of happiness, and world can be a better place to live in.

Scout ji :-)

No, I am NOT mucho impressed by the Taliban, nor do I subscribe to their Deobandi version of Islam but I do believe that they have done a lot right (and also a lot wrong) and that one shouldn`t blindly criticize them based on one`s own prejudices or ideologies but rather in light of the teachings of Sunni orthodoxy; if i am not sure if a given action of theirs (or anyone elses) is in accordance with first Hanafi fiqh (and then the other Sunni madhhabs) as understood for millenia by the Sunnis, I ASK an aalim who I trust OR I look it up in the books of the traditional ulama before making my decision. Hence, I did not make a decision on the destruction of the bamiyan buddhas until i had ascertained the views of my respected brethren...

Nor do i deny that everyone is Allah`s ceation and I treat all people with respect in my personal life yet at the same time I do not believe that everyone is equal i.e. that the unbelievers are equal in rank to the believers and nor am i a perrenialist as that is not what orthodox islam teaches. This does not mean that i do bad to anyone though....

You can say I am firmly fixed in my beliefs, alhamdulillah, the beliefs of Ahle Sunnah w`al Jama`at but i do not think i am better than anyone...I pray that Allah guides all to Islam insha allah and to that which is haqq...

If I disagree with someone in my life, I just do not interact with them more than is necessary in my daily living, that`s all. So, I do not try to exclude anyone--rather I try in my own way to do dawah to them--though i am the worst muslim on the face of this earth but i sincerely believe ke,

dozakh mein main to kya mera saaya na jaayega

Kyonke Rasool e Paak se dekha na jaayega!

for Allah says in the Qur`an

``hareethun alaykum bil mu`mineena ra`oofun raheem``.

As the great mujaddid and sufi Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi quds sirruhu wrote:

Aik mera hi rahmat pe dawah nahin

Shah ki saari ummat pe lakhon salam!

brother naqshbandi

.... may allah be with you in your stuggle against munfiqs like krashid and scout ....... the hypocrites will surely burn in hell (as promised) - inshallah :

[9.73] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.

[9.67] The hypocritical men and the hypocritical women are all alike; they enjoin evil and forbid good and withhold their hands; they have forsaken Allah, so He has forsaken them; surely the hypocrites are the transgressors.

[4.138] Announce to the hypocrites that they shall have a painful chastisement

[4.140] And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah`s communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.

[4.145] Surely the hypocrites are in the lowest stage of the fire and you shall not find a helper for them.

brother Asif Naqshbandi,

Unless you`re mucho impressed with the Taleban and want to be become the successor to Bin Laden, don`t turn religion into a destructive monster.

There is more to gain by embracing than excluding good things, good people in this world, who were created by the same God who created Muslims like you and me.

sister scout

Asif N. #62 The Surahs you quote and use to then say ``See? Islam CATEGORICALLY says that those who REJECT Islam are going to the Fire, insha Allah.`` in #43 say nothing of the kind. Just quoting from the Quran and then drawing your own preferred conclusions anyway is not enough: Those conclusions should have some reasonable connection to the Surah you quote: in your case that is not true.

And how dare you use the words ``insha Allah`` with your own conclusions: God is not there to do your bidding - it is for you to do his bidding. You cannot fool God, you cannot even fool other people with your post #43, only yourself.

All I can say is that you have come a step closer to Islam by looking towards the Quran rather than to books written by other men. The next step is to understand the Quran and to change your way of thinking accordingly. Whether you are capable of doing that, given the bloodthirsty and unIslamic views you have expressed in your posts, remains to be seen.

ylh

``... but then consider the following verses abrogated !

1) 4 34 : punishment of women

2) Women being half witnesses

3) Jews and christians can never be your friends``

....... thank you for your kind support ..... now all we have to do is get maulana sami-ul-haq and his one-eyed disciple, mullah omar, to ratify these ammendments to the koran ......... while you are at it, why don`t you propose revoking the ban on ahmedis and wine .... we can tackle the question of pork and polygamy after your next meeting with gabriel .........

.... see, this is what happens when you are taught theology and comparative religion by a patel on furlough from his night-auditor`s job at the comfort inn .............

krashid,

see the verses in the reply #43 of mine. they are crystal clear. see, this is what happens if you dont learn islam from an aalim but rather try to rationalise everything according to yourself. A basic text on islamic aqeedah is what you need. But really i am too tired and have to many importants things to do than to debate this with you. Janaab, Muslims have believed this since the time of the Sahaba--if you wish to believe differently it is entirely up to you. ``For you your religion, for me mine.``

Studebaker #148 from Mahim Maher`s board.

I must say I am very impressed! I am posting my response here for convenience. Also, some other people may have thoughtful contributions to make. After all, what we know of history strongly affects how think and behave. Hence, the issues here may be of general interest.

Writing from the heart you have raised issues that are important to you. By extension, these issues should be important to every Indian. Therefore, I invite you to help us all better understand your perspective.

1. A lot of Hindus believe that Hinduism and Islam are fundamentally different in how they have historically treated nonbelievers in their paths. If there was widespread destruction of Jain and Buddist places of worship by Hindu kings at many points in time, then Hindus clearly need to rethink their view of Hinduism as a more tolerant religion than Islam. Please DO provide any reliable information that you may have on this score.

2. You are saying something important below but it is not clear. You mention how Hinduism tends to include Jainism, Buddhismm, and Sikhism, and then say the following.

``I find that intellectually DISHONEST just as you asking for concessions without any consideration,goodwill &concern for Muslims from Kashmir to Coimbatore &Tripura To Gujrat.You at he same time sermonise as Indians ,yet some time NonMuslim spokes person ,(by speaking for Jain,Buddhist &Sikh Christian)&turn around & want seperate concessions as HINDU /Hindutva??``

Can you please explain the points you are making.

3. You feel that thanks to many great Muslim sufis, relations between Hindus and Muslims were amicable up until as recently as only 150 yrs ago. Then the relations became bad ``when Shyama Prasad Mukherjee ,& other wesetrn english educated Hindu tried to plan a revival so as to enslave Muslim population --for the same reason as you want to revert back the clock so that Hindu could rule Muslims for 1000 years inFUTURE.

Shyama prasad Mukherjee Selectively instead of working for ALL indians ,encouraged English education among hindus spl.in Bengal& Punjab so as to get a head start who were still struggling the aspersions of both rising Hindu modernites & receding English power.

iFEEL THIS PRIOD OF LATE 1800 early 1900 ,people from Hindu community absolutely derided the MUSLIM community knowing fully that they were going to march ahead with Hindu modernisation ultimately enslaving muslims even though as a republic it was equality of indians that should have been more important to think in terms of indians rarher than HIndu university of Benares,Hindu vidyalya ,DAV School.``

Again, this appears to be an important point. Therefore, could you please explain it further? How could these things have led to conflict? Afterall, this kind of stuff had been the standard fare for centuries. Specifically, Shyama Prasad Mukherjee was born 3 years AFTER Sir Syed Ahmad (a person I admire) died. This is how the website storyofpakistan.com describes Sir Syed Ahmad:

``During the 1860s, Syed Ahmad became an active public leader, journalist and orator as well as the founder of a series of schools and associations - all aimed at a cultural renaissance and a moral and social regeneration through adherence to the real Islamic values and reawakening the Muslims to modern thinking and education.



Following a trip to England in 1869-70, Syed Ahmad determined to establish an autonomous Indian Muslim educational system which would prepare a new intellectual leadership grounded in Western knowledge as well as in a reformed Islam. Thus, the Muhammadan Anglo-Oriental College Aligarh, founded in 1875, and Mohammadan Educational Conference in 1886, became centers of communal unity for Indian Muslims.

In 1887, Sir Syed, as he came to be known, warned the Muslims to keep away from the Indian National Congress and in order to defend the political fortune of the Muslims, he helped to bring into being the Mohammadan Defense Association in 1893.``

Even the Muslim League had come into existence when Shyama Prasad Mukherjee was barely five years old!

In 1920, the Mohammedan Anglo-Oriental College established by Sir Syed Ahmad in 1875 was turned into the Aligarh Muslim University. This was one year BEFORE the Banaras Hindu University was opened.

So studebaker, it seems to me that Hindu leaders were merely beginning to do in their community what Muslim leaders had already been doing in their community. All these leaders, Hindus and Muslims were making wonderful efforts. I am not sure what you find (or some Muslims found) offensive in all this?

You mention the fear of ``many rich & powerful hindu names Madn mohan malviya,Jamuna Lal Baja ,Dalmia Birla.`` But hadn`t Hindus lived with many rich and powerful Muslims for a thousand years? Why should any Muslim have objected to/be afraid of the wealth some Hindus were accumulating? What am I missing here?

Finally, most relevant, you mention your ``due part which so called founding fathers illegally ,meanfully,stepmotherly denied`` to you because you were not a Hindu. Again, it was not clear what you were denied illegal and meanfully by founding fathers of India.

I am glad we have an opportunity to learn about real issues in a calm and peaceful manner. I look forward to your response. If others have ideas, and if they can express those ideas without abusing people, please do join in.

Asif Naqsbandi Mudazallah Aleh# 43

Although you presented that anybody who rejects Islam will not be accepted in the eyes of Allah.

But did Quran ever mentioned that anybody who rejects Islam of your brand and even Islam of Shariat Mohammedi will not be accepted.

Islam is not Shariat Mohammedi for one thing. It is clear in Quran that Abraham was a true Muslim. And he did not made partners with God. So are all the prophets mentioned in Quran at some place as Muslims. So the criteria of Muslim is given as believer in One God who does not make partners with God even without believing into Shariat-e-Mohammadi moreso your brand of Shariat-e-Mohammedi.

And your point regarding Ayah that Christians, Jews, and Sabaens etc whoever believes in God and do good will have his reward from God is only related to people upto prophet PBUH.

1- Since the Ayah do not mention any such thing, how did you state such a statement.

2- The jewish and Christian Books had already been corrupted at the time of Prophet PBUH as is well evident in Quran (and the Ayah you presented)and are still in the same form as at the time of prophet PBUH. So why it is restricted to upto the time of prophet PBUH, I cannot understand.