They Changed My God

Tahmed and RSaxena

When asked whether he believed in God, Einstein replied, ``Yes but not in the way you do.( The other person was a rabbi probably). I believe in God who manifests Himself in the harmony of the fundamental forces of nature enticing us to explore its laws. And certainly not in a God who is forever bothered whether puny humans living in some remote corner of his creation are worshipping him or not.`` (Please note that the above statements may not be verbatim). So it depends what you consider as God.

Cheers

PS Having said that, I must say I believe in God.(of course in my own way!)

Would love to read the Urdu version. Please keep writting.

Re: RSaxena, #7

``Religion is the backbone of civilization.`` That was the atheist Freud. I agree with him.

God must exist for the humanity`s sake. Man cannot not believe in God. This world would be a lot worse place than it is today if everyone stopped believing in God (which is not going to happen, and to which I say, quite ironically, thank God.)

To reason God is just too heavy-duty for the general populace. Not only that, becoming a non-believer places too much of a burden on one`s shoulders, and not too many people are capable of carrying that burden. Not only that, I believe that an ignorant who becomes a non-believer is an extremely dangerous person.

What needs to be stopped is the dangerous thoughts, among the believers, that my God is better than yours, or that your God is false and mine true. That`s what that has created all the mess in this world. Unfortunately, stupidity and ignorance cannot be eliminated from this world, as you wish for, and eliminating God certainly is not going to achieve it.

If you haven`t read it, then I recommend a book to you, which I read about 18 years ago, that I know you`d enjoy immensely. The Dancing Wu Li Masters: An Overview of the New Physics by Gary Zukov.

why cant we read the orignal urdu version of this poem on chowk ..

cant it be done somehow ..

plzzzzz

well liked it ..

and plzz dont mark a statment that all bearded ppl are fantics ..

if tommrow ill grow up a beared out of

my own will ..

realizing all 1 lac 24 thousand prophets

sent on earth by allah had beards ...

will i become a fanatic ?????

will i ??

p.s anwar if u could send me the urdu version in my mail ..

akberthegreat@hotmail.com

peace

Urstruly writes:

``Anyway, make no mistake, He is a strict disciplinarian-He has promised to give us peace only if we keep discipline around us. His rules are infallible. And He is very selective/prejudiced because He helps only those who try to help themselves.``

You sound like the guys who took Him away, but keep coming back to tell us what to do and what He said. For our sake let Him be free Urstruly :)

Peace

rsaxena:

pl. tell me ur ``universal`` laws of physics

there r none known so far

adnan

Dear Mr. Iqbal,

This is a beautiful poem. A friend of mine told me of a conversation he had with a Muslim cabdriver in Fairbanks, Alaska. My friend asked the driver if he knew where the masjid was. The cabdriver responded by saying that he does not want to be associated with Muslims or the masjid, because the muslims here are associated with the alcohol industry and mafia.

Reflect on his answer. Does he go to the mosque to seek the beautiful God you describe, or the company and good favors of those people? It would be wrong of us to part ways with God just because of those people.....

Regards,

Before I say anything else, I just want to mention that my arguments aren`t meant to detract from Mr. Iqbal`s poem...I recognize that poetry doesn`t have to be based in reality.

Re: TAhmed

``Actually, the more science advances, the more obvious it becomes that there is far more to things than we can ever imagine, let alone see or experience.``

That my friend is science and the never-ending pursuit of knowledge. It has nothing to do with god. If we don`t yet understand something, it`s only because we haven`t tried hard enough.

``And from what we already know, it seems very, very unlikely if human consciousness and intelligence is the only consciousness there is in the universe.``

I agree. But I wouldn`t really worship any aliens :)

``There is a God almost by definition. And that God is of the kind that Mr. Iqbal knows: kind and just and encouraging humans to the peaceful pursuit of science and prosperity.``

I don`t know about that. If he (she?) did exist in his ``kind`` and ``just`` form, we wouldn`t have innocent people dying all over the world.

Dear Saxena,

I personally believe that Athiesm is destructive in the long term because an athiest society relies solely on the individual`s own `goodness` to work.

From my own point of view, life is full of challenges and trophies and human being requires a purpose. For me the ultimate trophy is Heaven and without this aim or the concept that my existence is non eternal, I personally would not see a point in living (which I know sounds a bit extreme).

Imagine the athiest who thinks the same way. Why would you want to go out of your way to help someone else if it hinders your own being? Athiesm in my opinion breeds selfishness where one works for their own self. That is then surely wrong.

Take care and best wishes.

Umer M. Phoenix

This subject of god being hijacked brings some thoughts to mind that I want to share with the more tolerant chowk members. People who are quick to take offence, who believe in the perfection of their own dogmas, and who see conspiracy and ill-will everywhere, please do me the favor of not reading this particular post. I have no intention of starting flaming wars of any kind.

I want to draw your attention to what I think is an unfortunate an irony of sorts.

It seems to me that over the centuries different religions have had different broad areas of strength. Islam, in my opinion, has stood out for two notable truths:

One, it has most directly linked the individual to the ultimate universal reality, call it god/God or whatever. No middle-men needed - you alone with your god: what a beautiful concept! Can a religious structure be more flat than this?! Today`s management people could take some lessons from Muhammad.

Two, and related to one, the equality of human beings. There is something beautiful in watching a sea of men all standing/praying together in unison without distinction of race, color, or economic status. Fascinating! What greater social achievement can one imagine?!

By no means are these features unique to Islam. Perhaps every word of Vedanta rings loud with these same messages. The same is true of much of Buddhism and much of Christianity.

Yet, Islam placed these ideals at its core, more forcefully than most. And it did so a thousand years ago. That is an achievement par excellence.

And that is what makes it so puzzling, and for well-wishers of the Islam of Sufis, so perplexing. A thousand years ago, Islam stood proud, ahead of almost every other religion of its time in terms of the light of emancipation it shone on every one. As a system of thought it was not all good but it was, on the whole better than the most.

A thousand years hence, religions that had been mired for centuries in superstition, inequity, and ignorance are inching ahead. No religion is or is likely to become perfect, but they are all becoming more human. But in this endeavor, the religion that has found it most difficult to move with the times has been (in my view) Islam.

Why is that the case? Why is it that when all other religions are trying to be more Islam-like (at least in these two regards) Islam seems bent upon abandoing its core principles? Why is it that I, a non-Muslim, find someone like Rumi more appealing than do huge numbers of Modern, even well-educated Muslims?

Personally, I am more interested in the powerful and long-term social processes, intellectual and emotional currents shaping human thoughts rather than any one religion. But Islam provides the most dramtic case. May be we can learn things that will be applicable to us all, no matter what religious tradition we have been born into.

First and foremost, however, is it something real that I am struggling with, or is just a figment of my imagination? If there is something to what I have noted, why should that be the case? I sincerely invite your input.

After all, ALL of us need to get our god back.

So, any ideas on how we managed to lose our god?

Re:Tahmed

``---It seems many years ago, a Russian cosmonaut visiting Indonesia said something like this too: that he had been out in space and did not see God. An Indonesian gentleman responded that he would have seen God if only he had stepped out of the spacecraft...``

yea..he said it.. and he was rite 100%... The ambiguity lies beyond death is the trade secret of God(or the notion of His existence) and the subsequent establishment of various religous industries in every corner of this globe.....

Re: RSaxena, #7

``Religion is the backbone of civilization.`` That was the atheist Freud. I agree with him.

God must exist for the humanity`s sake. Man cannot not believe in God. This world would be a lot worse place than it is today if everyone stopped believing in God (which is not going to happen, and to which I say, quite ironically, thank God.)

To reason God is just too heavy-duty for the general populace. Not only that, becoming a non-believer places too much of a burden on one`s shoulders, and not too many people are capable of carrying that burden. Not only that, I believe that an ignorant who becomes a non-believer is an extremely dangerous person.

What needs to be stopped is the dangerous thoughts, among the believers, that my God is better than yours, or that your God is false and mine true. That`s what that has created all the mess in this world. Unfortunately, stupidity and ignorance cannot be eliminated from this world, as you wish for, and eliminating God certainly is not going to achieve it.

If you haven`t read it, then I recommend a book to you, which I read about 18 years ago, that I know you`d enjoy immensely. The Dancing Wu Li Masters: An Overview of the New Physics by Gary Zukov.

That was a beautiful poem and I do not think it was blasphemous though some of the metaphors used were a bit daring and could be construed as disrespectful by literalist interpretations; especially some of the more anthropomorphic descriptions..but the general message in the poem i think was a powerful one and not disrespectful.

Still, it would be interesting to see the original Urdu...shaayad kuchh ilfaz shaan e Yazdaan kay laaiq nahin thay...wallahu aalam.

:-)

However, I did not agree with the not-so-veiled references to those who have``changed`` God; naudhubillah, Allah (Glory be to Him!) is above any change of the sort...yes, i know it was metaphorical but still, such language should perhaps be avoided...

very true..... where can we find the urdu version ??

fauzia

Mar-8-01 9:44:45 EST Reply #: 4
Saidamalik
I cannot hold my tears since I read this poem.``

Me too !



I went to the Garden of Love
And saw what I never had seen:
A mosque was built in the midst,
Where I used to play on the green.

And the gates of this Mosque were shut
And ``You Shall Not`` writ over the door;

So I turned to the Garden of Love
That so many sweet flowers bore;
And I saw it was filled with graves
And tomb-stones where flowers should be
And Maulanas in gowns were walking their rounds
And binding with briars my joys and desires

Dear Iqbal

It is a nice poem. I think the original Urdu version would be splendid.

I have a feeling that the main theme of the poem is based on the short story by either Rumi or Saadi titled ``Moses and the Recluse``. The story goes something like this:

Moses was once passing through a jungle when he heard someone singing a poem. The wording of the poem was same as that of your poem. He saw a man sitting at the bank of a mountain stream singing. Moses was a short tempered man. He grabbed the man at his neck and slapped him across his face and told him that he was insulting God by asking Him to come down so that he could play with Him, wash His face with the stream water......catch fireflies etc. The man started weeping. Then God Himself admonished Moses that it is the purity of the sentiments that count and not the words etc. etc.

END

Anyway, make no mistake, He is a strict disciplinarian-He has promised to give us peace only if we keep discipline around us. His rules are infallible. And He is very selective/prejudiced because He helps only those who try to help themselves.